Clay Tumey: 0:06

Hi, my name is Clay Tumey and I am an ambassador for Enneagram Prison Project. As we approach our 10th anniversary, we thought it'd be fun to sit down and have a chat with all the people who've had an impact along the way with EPP. In today's episode, I traveled to Santa Fe, New Mexico and sit down for a chat with one of the members of our board and it's also my friend, Lance white. So, you've listened to the podcast, you know the drill, we don't do like a formal introduction or you know, start any kind of special way. So I'm in Santa Fe. I've never been here.

Lance White: 0:52

I feel awesome that you're here. Yeah. I always love spending time with you. I love when you come to visit us. Wherever. Normally Cincinnati but but we've been trying to get you to Santa Fe for a while

Clay Tumey: 1:05

finally worked out.

Lance White: 1:06

Yeah, this is a nice, mellow, comfortable place.

Clay Tumey: 1:09

I agree. I love it here. And I I've said this a few times already. I didn't know. Until my first night here. We're kind of in the sky a little bit. Isn't I'm used to 400 feet above sea level in Dallas. Yeah,

Unknown: 1:21

we're 7200 here. Yeah, I love Santa Fe, the sun is out 300 and 360 days a year, I would say it's out right now. And it's also a place where it's very dry. Very little rain here during the year. So when it does rain, people are happy 365 days a year because either the sun's out. And they love it. Or it's raining. And they love it. There's never in Cincinnati when it rains or I mean, and it's cloudy a lot and the winter is just gray and rainy. And so I love places with sun. I love snow. Love the four seasons. I couldn't see living a place where there weren't four seasons. Yeah. That would be hard. Yeah. And

Clay Tumey: 2:15

don't move to Dallas. We go from summer to winter to like a fake summer back to a fake winter and then the real winter.

Unknown: 2:23

Yeah. Freezing rain. Yeah. Yeah, it

Clay Tumey: 2:27

literally rains ice. And you know, if you don't get hit by the hell and knocked out by it, it'll land on the ground, and you'll just be slipping and sliding everywhere. I've been there a couple of times. And it's not the best when it comes to the freezing rain and stuff. And it might snow every now and then. But there's no proper, like fluffy, soft winter. Yeah, so we don't we don't quite have that. I have no idea when this started probably sometime in the last few minutes. But before we go too far. Just tell us who the hell am I talking to today?

Unknown: 2:59

Well, I'm, my name is Lance white. And I'm a husband, a dad, former business owner, and my connection to EPP as I'm a board member. Trained as a guide, but never been a guide. And do everything from any any meeting I joke any meeting, they won't kick me out.

Clay Tumey: 3:32

I'll go to you go to a lot of meetings.

Lance White: 3:35

I go to a lot of meetings. I love the EPP community.

Clay Tumey: 3:38

So you you mentioned you know, former business owner and you I love to talk to you about business, you know a thing or two. And that is such as such a like massive understatement to say I'm a former former business owner, because you just like you're caught you're a rock star, like I don't know, like, in my view, like you're like a total badass in that world. And I wonder, Hey, how did you get into that? Was it just something that made sense to you at an early age? or did somebody kind of say, Hey, I think you'd be good at this, or what was the what was the starting point for you as a businessman.

Unknown: 4:16

My dad was a businessman. So it was always in the realm of possibilities. And somehow, and I don't know whether there's actually high school or college, I knew I want to go to grad school. And when I took my LSATs and my GMAT, it was like, Okay, what am I going to get the best score in what we're going to get in the best school? And it turned out it was business instead of law. Gotcha. And I'm thankful to this day that it turned out that way and and just just decide to go to business school, grad school instead of instead of law school and went from They're so, you

Clay Tumey: 5:01

know, I never my education ended earlier than most I barely got out of high school. So like LSATs and college and all these things weren't so much an option for me. So I'm going to guess the the LSAT is that legal scholastic essay? Scholastic Aptitude Test?

Unknown: 5:16

You know, I don't remember it's been so long, but yes, I think so. It's a it's the legal version of the LSAT.

Clay Tumey: 5:21

What about the GMAT graduate? I don't. Okay, cool. We're on this. Yeah. All right. I feel good. Because you don't know either.

Unknown: 5:30

I don't remember what the mm graduate Asset Management? I don't know that was a specific for business or not? Yeah, I think I think maybe it is. So maybe it's a Graduate Management aptitude test.

Clay Tumey: 5:41

That makes sense. I wonder, I wonder how I would have done on those probably pretty not so hot. What kind of law? Would you have practiced? If you did better than business law? Like Krim? Like criminal law? I think what would what do you think?

Unknown: 5:55

You know, I probably I don't know that criminal law was on my was on my radar screen, it probably would have been business law.

Clay Tumey: 6:03

No.

Unknown: 6:06

Yeah, I think so. I think I was probably more business oriented. to It said, it's where I would have been familiar and comfortable. So.

Clay Tumey: 6:14

So was it was it a good thing, I forget the exact phrase, but it my ears heard of, that's probably a good thing that I didn't go that route.

Unknown: 6:22

Well, I so many attorneys that I got, I wish I'd gone to business school instead, that they end up wanting to get out of working in, at least in law firms to move into business to do something related and not straight law.

Clay Tumey: 6:39

So at some point along the way, and we can we can, we can go back and catch any period of time. That's the the structured fancy, or however you want to say that, you know, a lot of years passed between then and now and I've known you for eight years now. Maybe I think we was it? 2013 2013? Yeah. And so to me, I don't know if you were already out of if you're already out of business by then. Or if or if I don't know your timeline. And so to me, it's like your EPP guy. And I didn't actually know that you were a guide. As news to me. Yeah,

Unknown: 7:15

I was I, I was in the great guide training cohort of, of Phil and Susanne and Camilla, and Tam, and Donna. And gosh, I'm Britt. It was just this amazing cohort of, of people who are still among my closest friends.

Clay Tumey: 7:39

So I think maybe why don't we just go, like, there's so many things. I'm so I don't get scattered brain like this very much. Because most people like I'm here to talk about ABC. And so I just go ABC, or sometimes PAC, like there's, you know, CBA like, there's a few ways to do it. But I have so many things in my head that I know about you that I want that I want to know about. And I have no idea where I want to start. So I think maybe for the listener just just for the sake of consistency, like the point of the podcast is to tell the story of EPP you know, and when I talked to Rick about, you know who to talk to next and what's the next episode, you know, we chat about that kind of stuff. And he he made a statement that I A agree with and B is so simple yet so profound, I think and true. And he said that, you know, I don't think you can tell the story of EPP without the whites. And so, I think okay, yes. And also how to where exactly did it begin? So, maybe instead of instead of me just going scatterbrained, you know, q&a? Just tell tell. Talk about where, what what the entire point was for you and to EPP and why is that statement true? I hope you agree with that statement that Rick says and and how exactly is that true? Like why can we not tell our story fully without talking about the whites?

Unknown: 9:13

Well, I'm not sure I ever would have said that. Of course but but I've heard Rick say it a couple of times and Susan say it a couple of times. So I I've gotten a little more comfortable with it. But um, so let me let me back up a little bit 2010 I I got a little more involved in the innie gram and Diane suggested I bring it into our to our business is your wife. Diane is my wife and I and our business was cleaning meatpacking plants, but our headquarters group had some issues going on. So we brought the Enneagram in as a tool to create. I wouldn't say culture because we are a culture but to give us a tool to work, work through some issues. And Diane and I really got into the Enneagram beyond just the business use of it. And we started going to IEA conferences, international Enneagram Association conferences. So we started in 2010 2011. In Fort Lauderdale, Diane saw Susan speak. I think I went to the business track meeting that time, didn't see Susan speak. And Diane came out just like whoa, this is the most amazing thing. So the next year, I didn't make that mistake a second time. I went to I think that was long beach that year, if I remember right, went to see Susan speak. And I am in Enneagram Type Three. I probably cried 10 times in my life. I don't know if I've ever had ever done it in public before. And sat in the front row, listen to Susan speak and just cry. And there's a reason. Our son in 2003 when he was 17 years old, was incarcerated for 10 years. So at that time, he was still he was still incarcerated the first time, Diane and I heard Susan speak and met Susan for the first time after that, after she talked and the next year 2013. The year I met you in Denver, Susan and EPP brought you and Elim to to Denver. And and again, I sat not the front row this time I learned my lesson, learned my lesson. I'm probably the fifth or sixth row and still cried like a baby. And just so touched by everything about EPP, including you and elim. And at the IEA conferences on Saturday night, there's a party to celebrate the end. And Diana and I talked, I don't remember which day, probably Friday, I'll run together. Probably Friday you had the EPP presentation was maybe it was Saturday, I don't remember but that, but they talked and that night. I was in negotiations to sell the business. And it was supposed to close in September. And this is I think July is those in July probably July. So that night at the party which which is loud and Dane and I just went to wreck consistency. Can we talk to you for a second? We went outside and and and we said what would you do? If you had some money to try to scale EPP love? We're in love with what you do. And how would you grow it? And I think Susan's jaw dropped a little dropped a little. And and. And he said Oh we'd love to and and I said well, could you just sketch some things out for us and and and so it just went from there. It was just yeah, you know, we want we were our heart belonged to EPP at that moment. It was like, okay, all of a sudden, pretty soon we hope we're going to have some free money that we could help support EPP or do something. Something to help change the world. And and EPP was what was right there in front of us when what

Clay Tumey: 14:04

timing? Yeah, of all that just kind of working out. Funny how that happens. So there's two directions that I want to go with it. The first is a little probably simpler. And that is as a business guy. And when you when you when you ask, like, you know, like, when you only ask questions like what would you do to scale it in order to? How would you do this? Do you have some ideas? Like let me know or whatever do you have in your mind? Do you have ideas of your own? And you want to see if they match up to that? Or is it just like you're a blank canvas and you're and you're just wanting to see, you know, like how does that look from? From moreso you know, of a like, I guess a more cerebral, you know, business rather than like an emotional investment type of thing?

Unknown: 14:52

That's a great question. Yeah, I didn't I don't I certainly didn't have ideas. But I love to hear I love creative people, I love listening to people's ideas. And because I'm you know, I'm, I'm relatively, I stay in my lane, pretty much. And I love to hear people like think outside the box and do things differently. And so, Rick and Susan came back and and said, what we're thinking this, like, like, we want to spread it around the world. And I'm like, I wanted to laugh. And I, I'm sure that I didn't, you'll have to ask Susan and Rick, that, but it was like, Okay, could you scale them back a little bit and make them a little more realistic? Like, this is a incredibly ambitious plan. Now, eight years later, we far exceeded the plans that they had laid out, I obviously didn't understand the their ability. I'm not sure anybody. I'm not sure they did, either. But it was just like, wow, it was just their ambition. Their goals were so mind blowing, they were outside my realm of comfort. And they, okay, I'm sure they humored me and, and, and tempered them down a little bit. Still keeping those as their ambition goals. And, and as I said, we far exceeded those in those eight years.

Clay Tumey: 16:29

I love the phrase that you just said, outside my realm of comfort. And every episode, there's something some phrase that sticks out that I'd wear that on a shirt. And that this, we're not even, we're not even 15 minutes in and I'm already like, I'd totally wear like EPP on the front and on the back outside my realm of comfort. Like that works. And it's also funny, because I know, I know. I mean, we're friends. So I know you, I know you better than just some random person, you know, that I'm talking to. And I know that I know, some of your hobbies are pretty exciting. And I know you're in the cars and you know, stuff like that. And so you're like to say that phrase like outside my, you know, realm of comfort like me, I'm an adrenaline junkie, too. And I think like, how uncomfortable must that really been? Just to have that kind of, you know, to say that, like, it's it's pretty, pretty big.

Unknown: 17:19

It's pretty big. It's, I mean, it was, it was pretty big. Like, they're they were two people. Yeah. And little did I know that their office was their dining room table is till the to this day.

Clay Tumey: 17:35

I don't know that that'll ever change. Yeah,

Unknown: 17:37

I hope not. Yeah, I really hope not.

Clay Tumey: 17:39

There's something special about that. So that was 2013. So that was a year after the, I guess the birth of EPP, at least by title. And so that was a really someone Rick says you can't really tell the story. You know, without last and die and why. That's this is a this is a massive pivotal moment for EPP where their ideas and hopes and plans and all that. Like the gas met the engine, so to speak.

Unknown: 18:14

Yeah, I think I think maybe Susan and Rick had invented the engine. And, and we're looking around for gas. Yeah. And yeah, that's that's a great analogy. Like

Clay Tumey: 18:29

it fits with the race car thing. Yeah, exactly.

Unknown: 18:32

We can both relate to that. I don't know if everybody else can but we can. I know Erin West can Budda

Clay Tumey: 18:39

pouring, pouring gas on the flames. Yeah. So so the first, I don't know, how long was it? So that was 2013. And then not too long after that. And, um, I mean, it's all relative. But we started having like, workbook ideas and all the other ideas that were happening because we were able to fund them with money. Do you have any particular memories and at this point, it's just a matter of me being nosy about behind the scenes stuff that I think people would be curious about, by the way, about the early days. Once you came on board? What in the first year a couple years? What did it look like behind the scenes of getting it from? From Susan being in a couple of gels locally in the Bay Area to now it's there are there are multi states multi countries. And it's it's been a process

Unknown: 19:32

and, and I can't speak to all that. I was I was funding and I intend to be a hands off person. And Susan, my relationship at the beginning was more with Susan than Rick. And and so Susan would call me and Rick would call me and bounce ideas off me but I wasn't involved like I am today. In EPP So, Susan, Rick will have to fill you in on more of those details. And, and I think three years ago, maybe three, I don't know, three or four years ago? Well, I think certainly when I when I got involved in the guy training, okay, I got more and more involved in then. Then, three or four years ago Susan asked me to join the board. So I'm not I'm, I'm the second. The second most recent board member to Alex's joined after me, but But Eric and Tara were were already on the board. And we're more involved in in it than I am.

Clay Tumey: 20:40

I need to talk to them too. By the way, I need to make a mental note. Yes. And hopefully I'll be I think, I think Erickson like Utah or something now. He's,

Unknown: 20:48

he's more now a most of them. Yeah, I mean, still, his business is based in his. Yeah, in Utah. But with with the pandemic, he spends quite a bit of time in LA, where,

Clay Tumey: 21:00

and then are still in the Bay Area. Yes, too. So next time I'm out there, I need to tap their shoulder as you do, and chat with them a little bit to amazing people. So going back to, you know, you mentioned, you know, your son was incarcerated, and is this is this fair game to talk about as far as being a parent of the incarcerated, and how that affects you and where, where that might come into play? As just, you know, the Enneagram is concerned.

Unknown: 21:26

It's definitely fair game, I think it's part of apparently, it's why Dan and I are here and, and our son, and our family. It was It is really important to talk about difficult things. And this is definitely difficult.

Clay Tumey: 21:42

So what's it like, I mean, I know what it's like to be in prison, I've been locked up. So we can you know, we've we've talked at length about that, I don't know what it's like for my kid to be locked up.

Unknown: 21:56

It's really, really hard. And particularly, I it was really difficult, maybe more so for Diane in the beginning, while we were going through the legal process, and, and that is the, the, the scene that you see in a movie where there's a glass plate of glass, and you pick up a telephone and you talk to somebody and and you're not allowed to touch them, you're not allowed to hug them. Once you get to prison, then there are controlled visiting environments, but you are allowed to hug when you arrive in the visiting room, and you're allowed to hug when you get ready to leave. And and it's great to see your child you on the other side of the glass to to be able to talk but there's nothing. There's nothing like the human touch a hug. Yeah.

Clay Tumey: 23:00

Yeah, I've said that for years, like people when they ask about you know, I've done some pretty public q&a. Yes. And without a doubt when people ask me, What is the worst thing about being locked up? Like what's the thing that you miss the most people think that it's gonna be well, I miss you know, the easy ones are like I miss you know, sex and I missed, you know, concerts, and I miss good food and I miss all these things. And the reality is, like the number one thing for me at least was was the hug, like the value of a hug just can't be can't be overstated. It's yeah, it's it's huge. Like it you you don't there's no substitute for it. And the food in prison sucks but you can eat food, it's fine. You know, you can you bored in prison, but you can play games and watch the incense fine. Literally nothing can replace the ability to just reach out and hug someone when you're having a bad day. And like I always say, you know, in prison, everybody's having the worst day of their life. So good luck finding someone who cares about your bad day. So going back, people think prison is worse than County Jail prison is actually county jails the worst, in addition to the the plate glass telephone visits that are, by the way, a lot shorter. Everybody is on edge, the stress is just very high. People are going through their trials. Some people are not guilty at all. And some people are literally they're just because it's they were in a situation that made him look guilty and they weren't. So you don't even you're not even dealing with all convicted people so it's very high stress very just not the place to be and then also it's it's the first step into incarceration. So people were in the free world really recently. Or as in prison. You might be with guys who've been there for years. They're used to it. You know,

Unknown: 24:58

yeah, I I think the other thing that that our son talked about is there's a culture in prison. Like you say there's people have been there a long time. There's an established pecking order, societal order culture, like you don't pick on that guy. In, in county jail, there's someone new coming in, not just every day. But every hour, there's someone new arriving. And they don't know. He would talk about it later, like young punks. When he was 17. He was 17 when he went in, so it's sort of ironic, but it's like they didn't know. They didn't know how to be respectful. They didn't know what the rules were. I mean, they're there because they oftentimes they didn't know the rules or didn't respect the rules. So and but in prison, there's a lot of rules that are not imposed by the guards and this and the administration, there are those rules, as you know, way better than I do.

Clay Tumey: 26:02

I'll tell you a funny one. And this is this is this is very standard, but it's also out here in the free world. This will sound extremely bizarre, but a very common one. It's unspoken, until you do it, and then they'll let you know you fucked up. But if so, prison is extremely segregated by race. Yeah. And, and it's good, nobody cares. It makes things more doable. So out here, you say that it's like, Oh, my God, that's the worst. And I won't disagree or even state my opinion there. But I'll say on the inside, it works, that things are extremely segregated. And it's okay to mix as far as like I play chess, that's not traditionally white game, quote, unquote, in prison, but I played chess, and I played with all the black dudes, and that was fine. And I looked down on me for it. But where race did come into play, and things did matter is if I had food on my tray, like, if I had a trade, like it was chow time, and I didn't eat, I didn't like corn, for example. So I'm not you didn't you never throw food away. You don't just you always offer it to someone else. And a lot of times you can trade like you, I'll give you my corn for your green beans, right? Well, if I had, you know, corn on my tray, I would, you know, offer it to somebody before I throw it away. And you always start with your race. So as a white guy, I offer it to the white folks first. And if they if nobody wants it, then it's anybody else, you know, in that case, it would be okay. To give it to, you know, black dude, or Mexican or whatever. And that sounds really bizarre and odd. But nobody on the inside thought that that was weird. That was the way of life. And in fact, if I as a white dude offered something to a non white dude, first, they would be like, like, what? St. Right? So it made right here. And I don't know, like out here. Does that sound like bizarre? Have you heard stories like that?

Unknown: 27:57

I hadn't heard that story, but but I have a similar one that our son told us when he first like I said he was in in county jail for almost a year. And he made friends and and it wasn't as segregated in county jail, people mixed. It didn't matter. He made friends. Some of them were black. And when they both ended up in prison together, he went and said, hey, yeah, and like, whoo, don't you need to back away? And let me tell you what happens here in prison. If you are too familiar with me, then you're gonna get it's gonna it's not gonna go down well for you, as a when my son went and he was, you know, five foot 10 140 pounds scrawny little white kid and he was gonna get messed up. messed up. Yeah, that's the polar and and as time went on and and things integrate he played soccer played with the the Mexican guys. The black ties, it didn't make any difference. Yeah. On the playing field, and then things were were were there were certain rules about when you could Maxim when you couldn't mix or what circumstances it's

Clay Tumey: 29:23

so funny. Like, just even in the moment I'm realizing how like even just using our words we're trying to pick carefully in prison it'd be like get the whites the blacks the essays to this or that, you know, it's there's no real issue with with same thing, but even just in talking like, do I say, Mexican? Or do I say Hispanic, and I don't want to offend? And I think it's good that I don't want to offend but I also don't it's bizarre how different things really are out here.

Unknown: 29:51

Yeah, I thought about that. I happen to know these guys were were Mexican. Yeah, it wasn't because I'm like you say usually, you choose your words. carefully, but but in this case, this is in my son's words. Yeah, those are those they were Mexican. And he, they were friends. They got along great. I don't know how it affected their distribution of leftover food and trading or not, but I'll have to ask him that question. I, I wasn't aware of that.

Clay Tumey: 30:23

Yeah. Because if it was like that there to the standard where I was just super normal. Yeah. So I, we're half an hour. Yeah. It feels like wow, it doesn't. 10 minutes. It flies by so yeah, it doesn't really feel like half an hour. So is that a green light? For more?

Unknown: 30:42

I think it is. You and I have talked two hours into the middle of the night before. So I this would, this would not be any different.

Clay Tumey: 30:49

We were talking the other night. So today as we talk, it's Thursday. It's Thursday afternoon. I got here, what Tuesday afternoon, Sunday afternoon. And so we've had a lot of time to catch up and chat. Of course, this is my first time visiting here in Santa Fe. And we've had a bunch of conversations that I've thought, Damn, I wish I had the mics up like these, and I've had so many of those conversations with you. And we've talked about everything from you know, serious stuff, you know, EPP you know, prison related things, the pain of this and that and all that stuff. And we've talked about cars, we've talked about, you know, all that talked about foosball. But I just I genuinely find you to be one of those guys that I can just sit and chat with about anything. And you know, a lot about a lot. And you have a lot of experience, and all that stuff, too. And I'm not even leading anywhere with this. I don't there's not a question. At the end of this, I'm not building you up to ask you some tough question. It's just a thought that I had in the moment, like you're really fun to talk to. And I wonder I know a lot of people know your name. And I wonder how many people don't know how fun it is to just sit in a couple of chairs across from each other and just chat. Like, you're a pretty cool, dude.

Unknown: 32:02

Thank you, I think you bring that out in me, I don't think it's, I kind of think of myself as a little boring. And, and so when I you know, you and I have the most amazing conversations that we both have minds that can ping in a million different directions, we can cover three subjects in a minute and a half. And, and oh, we got to go back to that. And so we both have really active minds. And, and we both enjoy exploring lots of different things, and on factual, fun, and crazy levels. So

Clay Tumey: 32:42

that's fun, because, you know, in looking through all this through through the eyes of the Enneagram, or through the filter of that, I guess is we're very, we're different types, we're in different triads, you're three or three, I'm a five, your heart type, I'm a head type, like, we have a lot of things that aren't necessarily in common. But then we do also have that thing that is like very much in common, like we can just sit in. And it's not it's not limited to three and five, if Rick was in here, it would be, you know, the same, except to a different degree. You know, maybe he would be the multiplier to all that. And when you started learning about the Enneagram, how did how did I not know that this was first a business tool, like you brought this in? Like, it's it's so fascinating that the number of times that we've talked and the things that I know about the people in EPP I never knew that that was your entry point to the Enneagram was as a businessman who wanted to improve something in business. And I didn't know I had it all backwards. I thought it was I thought it was, you know, I'm going I have pain in my life. And I know people who are offering these ideas, and I thought that was first and then business like related things. So I didn't I didn't know that it was like that. So but so what I was going to ask was as you're, as you're learning about the Enneagram you know, you know, decade plus ago, what, 15 years ago now probably wouldn't, that's a while

Unknown: 34:06

10 That 10 years 1011 Or going on 11.

Clay Tumey: 34:09

So, like, everybody has these epiphanies and these things that they learned early on, you know, these light bulb moments, and I'm kind of curious, from your perspective, what some of those were, either with yourself or with the world at large, like anything, like do you have anything that sticks out a

Unknown: 34:25

lot? Wow. I mean, it's such a well, first of all, I had been introduced to it a couple of years before and took a test and and I owe him a nine. And and then someone from the narrative tradition. The woman I brought in Dr. Deb Wooten, you know, Deb and and she said, Yeah, Lance. I think if I were you I'd take a strong look at three and In fact, you probably said there's no fucking way. You're being very nice. You're being, I'm guessing, is probably I don't have a real, I'm guessing that's what Deb said. And laughed and, and I looked at him went, Oh, shit, I think I am. But part of that was the, you know, the my first exposure to the anagram, which I think is true for a lot of people is the stereotypical presentation of your type. And most of us aren't anything like what the the stereotype of the type is where some variation of it and I'm you know, I'm a self pres and probably I have high social, too, and my one on one is way behind. And and so I didn't really understand that there was the, the richness of Yeah, various types. And so that was my first like, Oh, I'm not this because I'd look at and go, Well, I'm not. I'm not about me, I'm like, Well, I am but in a way, different way, in a way different way. And and I think, for me, I think I was used to be way more judgmental. And the Enneagram opened up a lens into so many people's hearts that I didn't understand and it and it created an ability for me to cultivate compassion and understanding for others that thought differently than I did. I mean, I was appreciated. I was I'm a hippie, I'm an old hippie, right? So I always appreciated growing up in the, you know, late 60s, early 70s appreciate the diversity of all types, not just in the sense that we use diversity today, but but different. Different ways of thinking different ways of approaching things so And yet, when things didn't somehow didn't fit inside my wasn't like, oh, that person's kind of crazy. Or, or like he's an asshole. Yeah. And then, oh, wow. Maybe it's not, maybe she's not, you know, maybe I'm the asshole because I didn't understand. And so it really gave me an appreciation for all the different types of all the nuances of of being a person being alive.

Clay Tumey: 37:42

I love that I experienced something similar where I just thought everybody was a dumbass. And and then it turns out that, like, they just care about things differently than I do. And that's totally, totally fine. I want to go back to something you said about how you mentioned stereotypes and and how that all comes into play with with the Enneagram and the and the community to about how we talk about people sometimes. And and I think it's feels like a simple question, but maybe it's not. But what is what is the stereotype of three? And how are you not that?

Unknown: 38:19

Oh, you know, I suppose the stereotype is Tom Cruise, right? Or, you know, this flashy attention seeking, wanting to be in the spotlight. And, and for me, I don't want a I'm an introvert. So I don't want to be in the spotlight. I I have this love hate relationship with attention. I want for me, I would say I want to be recognized as being competent and making a contribution. And that doesn't feel like I don't I don't need I'd love for you to come up, put your arm around me and go Lance. That was awesome. As opposed to Lance would come up on the stage. We want to give you an award. Those are you know, where's the stereotype is a three would want to be up on the stage spotlight in the newspaper on the and that's the stereotypical three, the stereotypical three the stereotype of a three b Yeah, and so I that's why it didn't resonate with three radio it's like well, that's not Wow, that's not that's not me. Yeah.

Clay Tumey: 39:33

That's such a big such a big distinction because to me, like I'm similar by the way I don't mind the stage but I I'm so much more touched by individual communication like, like you mentioned, somebody come and putting their hand on your shoulder and saying something nice. I'm in that I'm in that boat. Yeah, because I feel like it means more like and it's it's, you get positive feedback and in all kinds of different ways, throughout life, and nothing means more than when someone comes up to you randomly and just or messages you or email or text or whatever, and just hit you with something nice. And it's like that, that felt that felt better than being being praised in front of 1000 people. Like there's something. There's something cool about that.

Unknown: 40:21

Yeah, I can, I can definitely see that with you. And these podcasts, for instance, it's like, yeah, I mean, that they're, they've been so amazing. I love listening. And I think that the biggest reward for you as a spreading EPP and be when someone says, play that one was. And when your mom says, clay, I love that. I mean, that's clear to me that I think you've said that three times, since you've been here, at least three times that your mom, your mom loves the podcast that Oh, that was so cool for me to hear, too. Yeah,

Clay Tumey: 40:54

it was nice, because I don't I mean, I've done a lot of things. And you know, parents are going to be parents, and they're gonna say nice things. But something is different with this. And I think also a lot of that, and I hope she doesn't mind me sharing this is that my mom is learning the Enneagram and finding some some finding some wisdom and all that. And also taking a look back at life in general, through that lens. And I won't go so far as to say just making sense of it all. Like it's not, you know, it's not my place to say any of that. But I think just her willing to check it out. You know, she was in California, a month ago with us and meeting all my people and just being willing to have those conversations. So I think this this is not so I'm a musician. I've played in bands, I've I've played sports, and I've done all the things and I've done things well. And it's you know, pat on the back, good sock, good job. Good job, too. Sometimes. Freud there. But it's different than I think that's why it means so much more to me is because I don't feel like it's I don't feel like it's just a pat on the back from mom. And I don't mean to dismiss that. But this feels bigger when I get messages from from her. And then there's no doubt I already know it. She'll I'll get some from her. About this one, too. And, yeah,

Unknown: 42:13

yeah, I can tell. I can tell that it really touches you when we talk about it. I mean, I heard you mentioned it on, I forget which podcast before but probably with us. But yeah, I think maybe it was in it. But in person. There's just a gleam in your eye and, and thankfulness in your, in your energy that's just evident.

Clay Tumey: 42:40

It's, it's just a reflection of how I feel I is nice. I've done I've done a lot of shit. It's a It's not always been praiseworthy. And, you know, through all through all that, and everything that I've that I've caused and done and all the unpleasant things that I think a lot of people, I won't say they give me a pass, but people are quick to forget, and forgive a lot of times. And I don't I don't ever, I don't ever forget or lose track of who I was or what I did. And so I kind of always, you know, I just see things through that. And so that's why, you know, kind of means a little bit more, I think. So,

Unknown: 43:27

I totally get that as parents. Oh, and I can put myself I can relate to what you're I can't put myself in your shoes, but I can relate to what you're

Clay Tumey: 43:36

probably put yourself in her shoes.

Unknown: 43:41

Probably yeah, maybe that's

Clay Tumey: 43:43

y'all might have more in common than I do.

Unknown: 43:47

Oh, I can't wait to meet your mom. We'll figure that out.

Clay Tumey: 43:49

Yeah, well, mom, Santa Fe is pretty nice. I'm looking around. Yeah. And so I don't know what what's what is what is there to share with the EPP listening community. I mean, I, I don't I'm, it's very rare that I wouldn't say I'm nervous. But like, early on, I was thinking God, there's so many fun things to talk about. And I don't want to go for four hours. Yes, out of respect for you know, the time that we have here. But there's so many different things that we could talk about and I'm wondering like it Does anything come up for you either on topic or completely off topic? That's that's worth sharing with the with the listening audience. Or with me, you know,

Unknown: 44:27

I don't know there's not much we haven't shared over the years. I mean, we've we've spent you know, we're lucky in that we've gotten to spend lots of one on one or or two on one, you know, when you've come and visited us a few times and we've just gotten to spend extended periods of time so it's hard to identify things specifically that we haven't talked through or they you don't know about me or you know an awful lot about me and so I'm not sure I have a one,

Clay Tumey: 45:03

I've saved one question, oh, this has been, it's not. Okay, I promise, it's just something that, you know, I rarely plan or, or have anything in mind. But for you, I think you can speak to, to a group of people that I can't and it's just about the generosity of, you know, giving to an organization like EPP and for somebody who you've experienced a great amount of giving and the rewards that come from that. And I'm only assuming, because you've never like articulated that to me. And so to someone who is listening and says, you know, to themselves, like I have, you know, I have money, and I want to do good things with it. And I don't always know where to do where to put that or what to do with it. I'm just curious from your experience, you know, I don't I don't want to be crass and how I present the question, but to a prospective donor, or someone who wants to support financially or otherwise and any other way that the rest of us like me or other folks may not be able to, what would you say to that person that they're just kind of twiddling their thumbs looking for something good to do with their money?

Unknown: 46:13

Well, I let me back up. One. Second is, first of all, I think, in in the nonprofit world, we talked about time, talent and treasures. Some people can give their time some can give their talents and give their treasures. I'm lucky in the case of EPP that I've been able to give all three. And so I think anybody listening to this, anybody that's attractive EPP can support EPP. They don't have to have money, a lot of money, any money to support what EPP is about. And I, you know, I'm I'm 60 soon to be 68 this later this month. And and I think, you know, selling my business was sort of this landmark. Well, I mean, I started being involved in nonprofits years before that, but that became a point where all I have some money. And probably years before that, it's like, I want to start supporting things that are going to change the world. And, you know, I know, you've probably heard us joke about this before, but I always say, I say you know, EPP has this mission that we put on our website, but our real mission whispered is change, we're gonna change the world. And it's like, we would put it out there, except it's to Susan kind of laughs about it. I'm not sure Susan agrees with me, that that's the, that's the mission. I don't think she that would be probably too arrogant to say that. But I'm like, I don't have my ass on the line for this. Like, our mission is to change the world. And I think that, you know, if you have money to give, that's your opportunity to take a pay back. However, you got your money, whether it's whatever you consider luck, hard work, all the things that combine to make you where you inherited it, I whatever it is, like, it's, it's about leaving the world. I've always thought since I was a kid, that, that my mission is to leave the world a better place than when I came into it. To the best of my knowledge, now, the world may be a shittier place when i By the time I I leave, I don't know, but I still helped make it a less shitty place or or a better place. I don't I have no, who knows, you know, I'm expecting I want to be around another 30 years. So we've got a long time for this to play out. But, but I think that it's about paying back and about organizations, efforts that really make a difference in EPP really makes a difference. Way beyond what it does for for Lance white or clay Tumey It's, it has a ripple effect out there and I see it every every person involved in EPP. I've never I've never been involved in community like this before. Yeah, not just the community. But the individuals inside that community are just incredible.

Clay Tumey: 49:22

So it's easy to you know, I'm in the foosball community. I'm in all these other communities. And it's like, there are individuals that I like the whole community I like and then there's like a few individuals that I like, but with EPP it's like literally every single person is just is just amazing. Like there's so and I don't even get along with everybody. That's great. So I'm not like saying that everybody has just like a pile of flowers to be around. But I'm saying like it's everybody is doing something that I haven't really seen anywhere else. And it's it's kind of cool. It's kind of neat and I've I feel extremely fortunate to have been around You know, uh, wow, with with, with, you know, we're rolling up on 10 years and, and it's, it's kind of cool that I saw, you know, all all 10 years. And even though I'm in Texas, you know, most of the time I'm out of the loop a lot of the times, and it still feels very, it's pretty neat to just see, like, people get added. And, you know, now that you know, like, you meet somebody, and you're like, oh, this person. And then next thing, you know, they're just like, you'd learn more about these new folks and how amazing they are. And then they're just adding to it. And when, and I said this a lot in some of the Zoom calls, like the guy training related things. And I don't know that I've ever said this publicly. But, you know, early on, it was a concern. You mentioned Elan earlier, like, we were the first two that were kind of out there. And it was a concern with us, the two of us. And then even when Vic came along, and we'd met Vic and Alex and like the four of us were, like worried like, like Susan is like special. And she's one of a kind. And and we didn't think that it was we didn't know the language to say scalable. Yeah, but we didn't think that that was possible because there's only one Susan and and I was still to this day say there's only one Susan and nobody else's slacker. But it's totally, you know, there's also only one, Dana, there's only there's only one Phil, there's only one Susanne and there's and I'm not gonna name any more after that, for fear of forgetting people. But there's so many people in our organization, there's only one of each of them. And each one of them are so massive in terms of impact on the community around them. And so it's been kind of it's been a trip. Yeah. To see that all to see that all kind of come together. So

Unknown: 51:44

yeah, I think that relates to my almost don't want to use a skepticism. But when Susan and Rick said, here's our plan for expand on like, how are you going to do that with with one Susan? And little did I know that there would be a Dana and and Sue and veba. Make sure. And a Laura and a Halida. Oh, my gosh. I mean, were there just, there are so many amazing people between among the volunteers. The just, everybody like you said, there's nobody that that even irritates me. They're just like everybody is just so special. Such such hearts. Such hearts, including you. Thank you.

Clay Tumey: 52:41

I want to end I think we're at a good spot here. It's been we're rolling up on an hour. And it's it feels like it.

Unknown: 52:47

No, it doesn't pretty easy. Yeah, it is.

Clay Tumey: 52:50

And you've had your headphones on the whole time. So I guess you got used to the sound of your voice. We were kind of chatting before about that, and how it's sometimes odd to hear your voice. But I want to give you the last word before, before we go. I do want to say thank you. I appreciate welcoming me pretty much anywhere that you are in the world. And then this time, it just so happens to be Santa Fe, New Mexico, I'm enjoying it here. I'm sad to be going home tomorrow. I should say that definitely. I'm sad to be leaving here. I'm sad to be leaving here. I'm happy to go home. And I'm sad to leave here. So I always enjoy it. You're You're a blast to talk to. You're my friend I care greatly about you. And I'm grateful that you're willing to do this because this isn't always like a fun thing to do. And it's not always comfortable for a lot of people. And I think you're an amazing guy. And, and just thanks again and I want to I want to give you give you the last word and I I will shut up after this and give you we have all the space needed. Whatever you want to say could be relative to what we've talked about or something brand new. So anything that's on your heart.

Unknown: 53:56

Wow. In the last 10 minutes, we've covered so much of what you know, hearing the prior your prior podcast, I thought oh, these are the things that I really, if we don't touch on they're really important about EPP and we've just we stumbled into them instead in the regular course of our conversation. So I just I guess I guess it's funny in the meetings I've been in today on Zoom. How much EPP is both a community and to me. I don't know if it's more important or as important that it's that it is all the individuals that make up that community and there it's such an amazing, amazing group of people who brought their talents to this. And Robin just pops into my head like oh crap, I'm not going to forget her. Robin but the people whether they're whether they come to one one call a month or they've been through nine prisons one key and and don't and just out there, don't reconnect with EPP but the people who do reconnect with EPP and stay connected are just this amazing collection. Collection sounds a little weird mazing group of people who make up I think the analogy or they're they're the they're the threads that make up the fabric. And we use the word tapestry sometimes within EPP that different textures, different colors different different ways of being different talents and it's just such I just think maybe it's a three thing to you know, seeing everything in its full potential and I see this amazing group of people and think, holy crap, we are going to we are going to change this world.

Clay Tumey: 56:25

For more information about EPP, please visit Enneagram prison project.org We appreciate your time and attention today. Stay tuned for future episodes, which you can expect on the 12th of every month as we continue to tell the story of Enneagram Prison Project