Clay Tumey: 0:05

Hi, my name is Clay Tumey and I am an ambassador for the Enneagram Prison Project. As we approach our 10th anniversary, we thought it'd be fun to sit down and have a chat with all the people who've had a major impact along the way with EPP. On today's episode, I traveled to Minnesota to chat with two guides from our first local EPP community in the US outside of California. I do want to mention here before the episode that there are a few brief mentions of violence and other similar things that listeners might find disturbing. So if you have any triggers around that, please respect your boundaries and listen with caution. So this is number seven. And this is easily the coolest room that I've sat and chatted with someone and we're in your kitchen at your house. Yes. And fill in the blank city, Minnesota.

Phil GebbenGreen: 1:00

St. Paul.

Clay Tumey: 1:01

Okay, I thought it was St Paul, but I wasn't sure so tell us who you are and anything that you think is relevant and then we'll just go from there.

Phil GebbenGreen: 1:10

So I'm Phil GebbenGreen and I am sitting in our dining room and I'm looking around and when we painted this room our theme was gratitude and so they're they're partly Thanksgiving colors but they're also just bright colors so I'm looking at Orange and dark red and pea soup green and kind of lime green and I love this room to this kind of bright color makes me almost desperately happy this whole room this whole house was white when we moved in yeah now it's got cars not

Clay Tumey: 1:42

all white now I can see Christmas lights strung across the top of the room. I guess like a setting like a living room. sitting room area there. There's words written on the walls we have we have gentleness, self control, love, joy, peace, patience, kindness. I'll let you read the ones yeah

Phil GebbenGreen: 2:01

nicety and faithfulness trust.

Clay Tumey: 2:04

We have a sign that says let's go get lost. All right. What else? I mean this love this thing, this forgiveness? Are you responsible for the decoration here?

Phil GebbenGreen: 2:13

Yeah, this is what happens when for a Type Four and a Type Eight, get married and said we want some color and intensity in our lives.

Clay Tumey: 2:20

And I know which is which but if you don't mind, tell us your type. And then also, who is this for? You're talking about?

Phil GebbenGreen: 2:26

Yeah, so I am the Type Eight. You know, and when when I started this Enneagram business, I really did think for 10 years that I was a Type Nine. And interesting. I've just been thinking about that recently. Because somebody reminded me that you know, the holy idea for Type Eight is holy truth. And that I remembered how much I care about the oneness of all things. And so when I read that for Type Nine, I'm like yeah, I am a Type Nine because I care about the wholeness of all things. And of course I care about it so much I will like beat you up until you believe it too. And so I could not see that side of myself for 10 years and so then Type Eight so I am clearly a Type Eight and not a Type Nine so

Clay Tumey: 3:14

we're not talking a few weeks we're talking a decade worth of of mistyping yourself Yeah. So I will ask you this this is the first time I've had somebody tell me this so I'm I enjoy where I'm at already in this conversation. What is it like that far down the road? And especially, or maybe not even especially but just as anyone who finally says, You know what, I've been wrong for a long time. And is it is it is especially, you know, as a guy I don't even know I don't know, that makes it worse if there's a pride thing in there if there's like, I don't want to be wrong kind of thing. Like what's the process of, of admitting to yourself and then to other people that hey, by the way, I was wrong about something for a while, and I and now I need to correct that. Or is it even that? It might even phrasing that question, right? But none of that even happened? Oh, thank

Phil GebbenGreen: 4:02

you. No, I mean, I wasn't enough like in an Enneagram community at that time, or like I had to do a forgiveness plea for how wrong I was for so long. It was it was really an internal journey. And partly, I don't think I gotten that deep into the Enneagram because I was the wrong type. And so I'm like, Oh yeah, I'm about my love and connection and belonging and that sort of enough for me. You know, I'm doing a lot of spiritual work about peace and love and trust and belonging. And so and I was doing it with the full intensity of who I am. Then a couple of things happen. The most important one of them by fire is I had children and the mirror of having children and the rage that came up when I had children. The rage at my own autonomy being invaded, like literally I can't sleep when I want to sleep like from that you know, basic level of autonomy to just the little things My kids would do and like, I mean, I would just have these moments of my, you know, precious little children. And you know, I'm a very, very large man.

Clay Tumey: 5:09

So you know, small dude,

Phil GebbenGreen: 5:12

bringing my full physical presence and emotional energy and rage at this little, you know, four year old, six year old, eight year old, and then being able to step back. And what actually happened is I went to a conference was called leading it with someone I'd never been with before, was with her literally about 30 seconds, we were laying out the handouts for the conference, and she said, you know, the Enneagram? And I said, Yeah, and she said, You're an eight, right? And I'm like, No, I'm a nine. But why do you say that? Yeah. And she said, Well, you've only been in here 30 seconds, and your energy already took over the whole room. She said, it's awesome. I'm an eight, too. So I asked her to go to lunch with me and just say more, so she said more. And she started to describe my life as it actually not my idealized self, about beauty and truth and wholeness and unity, but like who I actually was. And so what I was ready in a way I wasn't before. I, I could see myself in a way I couldn't before, like, Oh, I want to be about connection, and oneness and unity. But what I'm so often about is like banging my head against the wall, I'm seeing all the places where it's not, and it's making me furious. I'm seeing these mirrors of myself and my little children, and I don't know what to do with it. And so then I read the a chapter, I think, in the wisdom of the Enneagram. And I was like, Oh, hello, self. And so that. And so it wasn't a I didn't, because I don't like to be wrong. But yeah, of course, but it wasn't like that. It was just all this is a truth. I was not willing to admit to myself before now I can't now it is making me miserable to the point. I want to do something about it. And this is speaking truth. And so yes, from and that was an AVI like, I'm so not an I, yeah, I'm an eight.

Clay Tumey: 7:19

I always wonder So, you know, I learned the Enneagram in prison. And in prison, it's very earliest, where I was locked up, it was very normal to, for the starting point for a lot of guys is Type Eight. Like in prison. That's Yes, it's safe to be a Type Eight. And it makes time easier when you're in Type Eight, you know, theoretically, I guess. So that for a lot of guys is the starting point. And not even intentionally, like it just seems like Oh, yeah. Oh, this makes sense. And so I thought that too. And I'm clearly not an eight for anybody who knows me. I had this, I had this same kind of thing of like, I stumbled upon the five and I was like, Oh, I'm home. Like this is cool. And for me, I'm always preface because I want to ask if your experience was similar to this, for me, it felt like, I'd been walking around and like the wrong size shoe. And they worked because they covered my feet and all that stuff. But when I found the right size shoe now I was like, Oh, this, I'm good. This is more comfortable. And it makes sense. Now, is that is it similar to what you experienced when you started looking at Type Eight and realizing that this is where I don't want to say home? Because it sounds kind of cheesy, but to where that's the type that you clearly identify with?

Phil GebbenGreen: 8:38

Yes and no. So yes, Type Nine clearly was not the right fit for me. But it was such an easy, lovely fit. Yeah, you know, I wasn't really I was trying to protect myself because I was trying to protect myself, from that deep honesty of, of where my deepest healing needed to be. But I love to be in an eye. You know, what is

Clay Tumey: 8:59

it about the mind that's so easy to or fun to be or whatever? Like, why did you like that? Yeah, for

Phil GebbenGreen: 9:03

me, because I mean, I could I could tell myself I didn't like conflict, which I don't know, I don't know if anyone really like maybe sometimes you say you do, but I I, I like

Clay Tumey: 9:15

it as a sport. I like it as a way of life. I like it as a sport.

Phil GebbenGreen: 9:19

See, when I would go, I would be going to meetings, committee meetings at my church or in the community. And all the time, I'd be right in the midst of the conflict half the time I'd be causing the conflict. But I could be telling myself I'm all about peace and unity. And so it was a comfortable lie. So it wasn't like an uncomfortable and I actually really do like I feel my energy rising in my body with how much I care about the unity of all being and belonging. So I mean, I didn't have to pretend that at all like I care but I hear about it with this like raging energy that's like a steam train, you know, I care about it with an eight type energy, and I just could not, I couldn't see it. And so it wasn't like putting on a more comfortable shoe, which is maybe not what you were saying. But it was like, a willingness to look honestly, in them. It's not like I hated what I saw. Yeah, but an on a willingness to look in the mirror and say, Oh, my real issues are there.

Clay Tumey: 10:32

So we kind of started, like 10 years into your journey, it was where this conversation began. And I, one of the things you know, I told you, I don't prepare, I don't like have a list of questions. And it's sometimes it may be obvious, but this is one of the few things that I definitely wanted to ask you. On the front end of your Enneagram journey, where you first learned about it, how you first came about it, all that stuff, a very typical conversation that I have with people I grew up in the bible belt. So for me, the symbol itself was like, a problem. You know, that looked weird. It looks satanic, it looked something wasn't right about the symbol, right? And I know that you are, I want to make sure I use a proper time. It's pastor, Pastor, okay, Pastor. So I want to hear this answer from you. Like, what was your first encounter with the Enneagram? And did the symbol have any kind of weird vibe to it? Or were you just like, Yeah, whatever. Like, what what was your introduction to the Enneagram? Yeah,

Phil GebbenGreen: 11:31

well, I was introduced to it by a Lutheran pastor. So that and I've always, I mean, I was raised in a relatively conservative, Christian, Dutch Reformed denomination. But I also have always had a pretty broad spirituality. And, and it's both a little bit of that rebel of the eight that I wasn't going to be limited by some of the same. By the time I was introduced to the Enneagram, I had already left the denomination of my youth. And, you know, I was going to seminary and Berkeley. So I was already broadening my world pretty far. But no, I saw kind of a spiritual, the good spiritual, what repercussions of the Enneagram? I could, I could sense what the good heartedness, the spiritual groundedness that it felt, but I still feel to this day that the Enneagram comes out of so I mean, we could talk more about this because I find it fascinating, but that like I've my Christian theology, and eppp theology, cosmology approach, match really, really, I don't have like, set aside my Christian faith, I do kind of set it aside I don't like even the first couple times in prison every once in a while, I would try to make a little connection, partly because so many of the women in the class connection to what, thank you for asking connection between, I would say something like, this is the same kind of thing it says in the New Testament, gotcha. When Paul says, partly because so many women in the class in Shakopee were clearly and really, we're really very faithful Christian, faithful kind of people. But every time I it didn't feel good to me, even if I thought that was a really good connection, like it didn't actually work in the class. And so now, I don't talk about that at all, when I'm teaching and ebp. But inside of myself. What, like a highway, two lanes going the same direction.

Clay Tumey: 13:45

Yeah, I like that imagery. I think I, I wonder now the flip side of that, when you're when you're delivering a sermon, does the Enneagram creep into those thoughts, that ideology, whatever you want to call it? Does that slide its way into Sunday morning, sometimes?

Phil GebbenGreen: 14:03

Absolutely. And sometimes it's over. And I've actually put up like flip charts and said, okay, like, here's the nine types. And here's a word for each of the nine types. I've never like taught the whole Enneagram in a sermon. But my whole congregation knows I teach the Enneagram in prison, I mean that the congregation sponsored me and my first guy training program that they literally paid for me to go through it and they're super excited. Even more importantly, they saw how much I matured during the process. Like they felt it. Yeah, I mean, my family felt that my church felt it. I felt it. So one, two, it shows up. Like almost every week, yeah. in things like I make connections about head, heart, and body. And so almost always there's inner, the inner plays in me constantly, so it leaks out all over.

Clay Tumey: 15:02

Yeah. Yeah, I totally I just love the way that you described that we're talking about two lanes going down the same highway because it's not they don't need to, they don't even need to intersect or cross or disrupt each other or interfere with each other, or anything else like that. I've never heard it described that beautifully. So thanks. I like that. How did you? How the hell did you end up in prison? When and usually I asked that, because you've been arrested or you've been done time. And you know, maybe you have I don't know,

Phil GebbenGreen: 15:32

no, no. Although, when I had my own kids, and they started to go through elementary school, middle school, high school, doing Enneagram work helped me remember more of my childhood than anything else having children than doubled down on that. And so all of a sudden, as I started to get more honest with myself as a Type Eight, and the very, very few times my children would be sent to the principal happened very, very few times with my kids. But I started to remember, I went to the principal's office a lot as a kid. So all of a sudden, I realized, like, I even realized my privilege, then because I had a family who believed in me, because I had school administrators that knew I was not doing real damage. I was just challenging my teachers, my teachers needed a break from me, I could sit and chat with the principal for a while, you know, I think fives and eights are similar to this, it's hard to punish us. Yeah. Because Well, I didn't enjoy the trip to the principal, like,

Clay Tumey: 16:36

I enjoy the fact that I can tolerate it. You can't You can't deliver, you can't deliver enough physical pain that will make me Submit. And you also cannot deliver any sort of, you know, mental distress that will make me crack or shame or shame. I'm, I feel to this day, I feel immune to just raw punishment. Now, I feel bad about things, you know, I make mistakes. I do things, you know, I have kids, so even as a dad, I do things. And I think, you know, that was not the optimal parenting strategy. That's a nice way of saying I messed up really bad. And so I do I have guilt and shame attached to those kinds of things. But as far as, like, if I'm at the speed limit, 55 I don't care. I didn't 70 if I want to, I'll do 50 if I want to the ticket does not matter to me. So as a child, the principal's office did not matter to me. How about you

Phil GebbenGreen: 17:31

super similar. And shocker. And the thing that you know, I would see the teachers use shame on on students and one it would make me angry. Yeah. Like how cruel. But I would also so clearly not work on me. Which is partly why I ended up in the principal's office because the teachers used to shaming kids and like the heart types, they'll shut right down, they'll actually feel ashamed, I wouldn't feel ashamed at all. And I would actually then be angry like you're trying to, to hurt my heart in the way you've just hurt those other kids hearts. And even you know, well meaning teachers and they're trying to keep order in the classroom. But that temptation to use shame to control and it's so did not work on me. And then I think I would challenge even harder, and then eventually shoe off, I would go.

Clay Tumey: 18:21

So did you have prior to doing the Enneagram work and going into prison, all that stuff? Did you have any experience with incarceration, with family or friends or anything else like that?

Phil GebbenGreen: 18:31

Almost none. Okay, when I went when I started with EPP, and then went to prison, I mean, literally in California, you know, going to Maple Street and San Quentin and then here at Shakopee women's prison in Minnesota. I looked at my wife Luna and I said, Have I been talking about going to prison for the last 20 years? And she said yes, you have and so let me we were talking earlier when we were eating dinner together about calling and i don't i don't even you know you think as a pastor I completely know what I'm talking about around the word call and I don't know is the answer. But something Something was calling me for years. And what I was a pastor I had opportunities to do Bible studies in prison. There's lots of Christian programs that go into prison and not never did any of that none of them were even empty. Like even would look at them now and then, and I did not think I love the Bible. But of course, I love to talk about faith stuff, spirituality, all of that, but doing it and it just did not feel right. And when Susan Olesek and Vic and Lance and Diane white showed up in Minnesota at the end of 2017 and made a presentation to the Minnesota chapter of the International Enneagram Association. Immediately that like but then yeah and again whether that's God speaking I have no idea what that is but this immediate that I've actually never had it that clear I didn't have a declar with seminary with nothing else I can't I literally can't think of another thing in my life that in like a five minute period I thought I am doing that no matter what and I by that night I was in by I think the next Sunday I had told my congregation I'm going to prison this thing happened and I want to teach the Enneagram in prison and literally a couple responded that day came up to me after worship that day and said How much is it gonna cost oh no they're not a super wealthy couple but they had just got I think a little inheritance from an aunt who died and they said boom here's a check for $3,000 Wow and so like the alignment that happened to send me to EPB and then going into prison it's felt so No, I have like no history with prison or incarceration issues or policing issues or any of that but there was an alignment that happened that has felt right ever since

Clay Tumey: 21:16

when when Vic and Susan in the game come up to do their presentation in 2017 What did you expect if you even remember what did what did you expect to hear about or what what I mean like I don't know I look at it from my perspective I think like alright, I'm just gonna sit through another presentation about something and then I'll go What's my next presentation after that or whatever right? Yep, was it Did you have any expectations or did it interest you before that? Had you heard anything about TPP prior to that

Phil GebbenGreen: 21:46

very little and it was Alex I said Vic, but okay, Alex and I went to a little dinner beforehand where and I ended up talking to Alex and I remember how like a nine by the way and I was scared to death of him Yeah, and he's i mean he's like the biggest teddy bear in the world but

Clay Tumey: 22:08

I'm scared in what way I don't you don't strike me as someone who's who's scared like in a physical you know, like violence way or just what was it an intimidation thing? what's the what's the fear coming from

Phil GebbenGreen: 22:20

right and you know Susan tells that story about me all the time when we did the one word share at the end of that night when those of us who were interested stayed after to talk to them and she said what's our one word and I said scared and she immediately whipped her eyes up and looked at me and said when he was scared I mean so that night was a big deal. I think I was scared because I knew this was gonna change my life. I think I was scared because Alex and actually has not not his like scariness if this makes sense now his intimidation actually his like grounded almost angelic presence right? And I'm like this even though I had done a lot of Enneagram work up to that point so now this is seven years after my conversion to eight

Clay Tumey: 23:11

I like that description so

Phil GebbenGreen: 23:12

you know I'm pretty aware of my eight you know type qualities at this point but I'm I can feel there's another what so I'm like pausing to say What I don't know is true which is there was another death coming my way. I was going to have to give up a deeper level of my what ego self but it doesn't feel like I have to give up my ego self that sounds like oh, I want to do that of just myself. And Alex's big presence I mean so I could tell excuses like oh because he was a big black man No, I was actually not scary to me he'd been in prison like that actually wasn't it I actually think it was an invitation to a live nets that I heard in Alex and Diane and Lance and of course from Susan and it it did it scared me

Clay Tumey: 24:12

how long after that was until you stepped foot inside of a prison for the first time.

Phil GebbenGreen: 24:19

That was November of 2017. So I spent the rest of November and early December filling out the ebp application and filled it out sent it off that's a process it is then you just don't hear anything because you think there's this whole group that's gonna read it and no it's just you know, at the time it was just Rick and Susan in their house with a stack Yeah, exactly right. You know, didn't hear didn't hear didn't hear like it's the training is starting on like January three and I think on December 31. They say congratulations and I might be exaggerating a little but it was pretty close. It was a pretty quick turnaround and sell started early January of two 2018 GTP was like like two months went to the practicum which was that valid bro said this is GTP two in early 2018 I think I've got those years right and so then went to Maple Street at the so this was probably March 2018 went to Maple Street was done the first time I'd been in prison so I did have a niece who got in trouble with some drug offenses here in the Twin Cities and I visited her in prison and as far as I know, and it was it was a workhouse so it wasn't really was not like going into San Quentin, Maple Street and then San Quentin for the two classes that evening in San Quentin. And by the end of that day, I was both completely exhausted and completely sold. This is astounding

Clay Tumey: 25:50

What is it about going on the inside going going inside and you know it's it's in describe anything that comes to mind really because I want I want people who are listening who may have never been inside, even as a visitor or anything else. What was it like going in, you know, to meet people who you know, before that I'm getting you know, other than maybe visiting your your impression of prison is whatever you see on TV, right? So when you go in, you realize oh yeah, this is not anything like that. There are some similarities. There's a lot of concrete, there's a lot a lot of razor wire. There's a lot of people wearing the same clothes. What are some things that you perhaps did not expect?

Phil GebbenGreen: 26:40

So I did not expect Maple Street was a deal what Maple Street is a pretty in San Mateo County is a pretty modern prison. And so there are big metal doors that close behind you. But that all feels pretty normal. And you know, I'm in a little pod, and they've got puppies. And you know, it was it was a pretty easy environment. But then that afternoon, walking into San Quentin is like walking into a medieval fortress. And so the like, like you said, Just seeing the razor wires, seeing the towers with the guns, having that old iron door Clank shut behind you about the thing that really got me and I'm sort of laughing about it now. But at the time I was at like, kind of rage. There's a picture of the warden. Yeah, in the waiting room where you go between the lock doors as they let you in. And the warden was just glaring at me. And I was just a picture. Yeah, that's the picture right? Not the warden standing there a picture of the warden on the wall. And I like got into, like a battle of wills, you know, with the picture of the warden. And this is both ludicrous. But I was actually standing next to Susan and I was starting to shake. It wasn't really from fear what it was from anger, but it was I could start to feel Oh, like prison. And I mean literally San Quentin Prison people locked away but I was also feeling the prison of my own making. I was feeling my own personality rise up as if I can win a battle a wheel wills with the picture of the warden. And so right I mean, the ludicrousness but also not funny, but it's funny. This is exactly right. And she said, Wow, I'm just starting to, she could feel my energy going up, and then going in there. And the main experience of meeting the men in this prison class in San Quentin was not people who were trying to battle wills with the warden. It was what welcoming laughter, warmth, open heartedness. courageous work. Within minutes of the first class arriving, Susan has split us up in one on ones and someone is sitting across from me, explaining how he killed his wife and lover and up in a jealous rage kind of blacked out killed them. And now he's in prison and like, was the most one of the most gentle people I'd ever sat across from. So the me being afraid to do the deep work. me who's been given every advantage to do it graduate school and spiritual master in divinity, which is crazy, you know, conceded thing to claim one has a master's in divinity and now I'm sitting across from from people who are are in San Quentin Prison for years and years and years. Doing deeper work than I am. Like, clearly

Clay Tumey: 29:57

I want to point out some irony, Anna, and I'm curious what your thoughts are on it. You talked about hearing, Alex, and that, you know, invitation, I think is the word that you used and how that that it brought some fear, for you brought up some fear for you. And then a few minutes later you talk about sitting across from someone in San Quentin. And you kind of just glossed over this description in the story very easily about how they killed two people. And you didn't seem the least bit fearful of that in describing it. And what what is it about? So first of all, I will say to the average listener, that would probably be odd. It sounds odd. It's not odd to me, of course, you know, it's normal. But to the to the average, you know, just standard person who might be listening for the first time and they hear that and then their brain they go, Well, what the hell, you're scared. You're scared to Alex talking with if you're not scared to sit across from a double murder? how

Phil GebbenGreen: 31:00

it actually, like you said, I glossed over it because it doesn't even enter my mind. And so it is partly the, the crazy denial of an eight, that at least bodily I feel kind of invulnerable. But emotionally, I feel I was gonna say the word stunted and I don't I hope I'm not emotionally stunted. But like, that's where my growth edge is. And so the the complete open heartedness that I felt from both Alex and this man I was sitting across from in San Quentin was scarier to me than the thought of a double murder. That is, that is absolutely true.

Clay Tumey: 31:42

Does it feel like when you're talking to someone, and on the inside has done something very violent, some something that's very hurtful to others? Or even in this case that they've killed someone? Is it is it? Is it easy to forget what they've done? Or why they're there? That they're that they're violent criminals?

Phil GebbenGreen: 31:57

Yeah. Another thing I clearly do when it's a gift, and maybe it's sometimes a problem, I'm trying to think if it's a problem is I'm so caught in the now that right now, just like I'm sitting across the table from you, I was sitting across from this man. And I, by the way, I remember his name, but I'm just not saying so I'm like seeing

Clay Tumey: 32:19

the blue button after the fact Don't worry,

Phil GebbenGreen: 32:22

I can absolutely still picture him. And we are just having this beautiful Connect. It's like one of the shining memories of my life, like literally I there's kind of like a halo of shine around it. And I don't remember what the question is, but I'm saying that the beauty of that moment, completely. My past, his past, our futures, like none of it even enters into the equation for me, I am just right there. I mean, a liveliness and immediacy of those are essential qualities of the eight. That was a moment when I felt like immersed in the essential qualities of my own type.

Clay Tumey: 33:08

What do you say to somebody who, who hears that, and maybe doesn't quite relate to that? And all they can think is screw that guy, man. He killed people. Why do we care about that guy? He isn't he is just a criminal. He's just a murder. And there are people. I say that a little flippantly. But there are people who believe that and who feel that and it's and for whatever reason, that's just where they come from in life, and they're just like, man, who cares about that guy? He's in prison? Why are we putting so much energy into someone who took people's lives? What do you say to that person?

Phil GebbenGreen: 33:50

I would say one of my pet peeves is when interviewers ask interviewees to try to guess what other people are thinking and what they need to hear, I have no freaking idea. I'm not that person. And so I don't even say that flippantly like I actually don't like, I want to say all kinds of things like get the freak over yourself. I want to say, Hmm, there might be wisdom there that I forget. Like, I'm not talking to this person, the families of the victims of this person. Like that would be another tricky conversation. I don't actually think I would be good in that conversation. It's tough because I'm not, I'm not empathetic enough in some ways. I, I forget that the past can be important. I forget that that you do need to think about the future. I would certainly invite to live into forgiveness, but maybe that would even be really inappropriate. So I also come back to I actually don't know

Clay Tumey: 34:50

it's not a fun conversation to have people people throw that at me as an ex con. I've heard people I've literally had people tell me directly to my face. Like, who are you like, you don't Matter, why do you Why should you or even the fact that I wrote a book? And they say like, why should you? Why should you get profit from bingo? What? Why should you be able to go out and charge a fee to talk? All you're just an ex con? And so my opinion on the whole topic is a little skewed. I'm completely biased, because I'm on the receiving end of that trash. You know, I think it'd be weird if this was a business concept that I came up with. And then, you know, rob banks, went to prison, wrote a book as a business plan is just not what happens for the curious, by the way. So I don't know, I always I kind of just wonder where other people are on that somebody who's, you know, for the most part lived, as far as I know, illegal, you know, law abiding life. I wonder how the masses respond to questions like that, because they're out there. You know, and I think most of our listeners, and most of the people in our community don't really, you never hear that, you know, Nobody. Nobody judges like that. And it's a pretty safe place for folks like me, which is why I love it so much.

Phil GebbenGreen: 36:06

Yes. Okay. While I'm sitting here, thank you for saying all that. And that also gave me a minute. I mean, I tell the story all the time. So most people in EP have heard it. But when I went into prison, here's this. Here's the biggest story. I remembered when I started doing this work with EPP. I, I remembered how angry I was when my first son was born. And this is the story I always tell it to begin the very first storytelling in prison when you go inside exactly the like, at the beginning of the first class, I say Hi, I'm Phil, and I live in St. Paul, and I'm an EP guide. And I say something like, and I've got an anger problem.

Clay Tumey: 36:49

You just that's your opening statement. Like almost

Phil GebbenGreen: 36:51

literally, I might have said like, welcome. Here's your name tag. Let's fill that out. And then I'm Phil, and I'm an APB guide and I have an anger problem. And right away, I mean, I've said this to before, right away, especially the eights are kind of like, pretending like they're not listening, or goofing off. And all of a sudden, the class stopped, like there's a literal pause. And it's not because I just said that I Well, I guess it is because I said that. But then I say, and I didn't really understand that until I had my firstborn. And four days after my firstborn, I was done. I was toast, I was not sleeping. And I had had my whole life invaded by this beautiful, cute little creature, but invaded and so in the middle of the night after four days, and breastfeeding was hard and not sleeping, and crabby. And so my wife is sleeping like God bless her, she needs rest even more than me and I'm walking around the living room. And so much rage came up in me towards this cute little creature on my shoulder, that I wanted to whip him across the room and kill him. So I assume this happens in your community. It certainly doesn't mind where I read about the guy who hit his infant child so hard, you know, cracked his skull and he's damaged for life or choked his kid to death. And literally that's a but for the grace of God there go I kind of moment and I tell that story in prison. But I tell that story to myself to remember, like the guy was sitting across from San Quentin had a blackout moment and did not have the ability to stop himself was not given the support he needed to be able to stop himself in that moment. I had the support I had a wife who I could go to and drop my son off from too and say it's time for breastfeeding even though it was not time. Yeah. And so the other thing that this brings up for me is it's not just empathy Oh, this poor person it it's it's a connection that actually even the clarity about his crying gave me more clarity about my own life. And so part of what's going on when there's all this judgment is it's projection. I am projecting my own self judgments and fears onto you the bank robber and to you the more and so easy to do with people in prison clearly guilty. And see this now I'm getting mad. Like that is just irresponsible projection. And people do it all the time. And it makes us feel justified. But it is violent. So yeah, is a double murder violent, obviously. Is projection violent and destructive. Oh my Gosh, it's happening every moment.

Clay Tumey: 40:02

How do I as just as just another person in society handle that, not when it's towards me, but if I see it, it's easier to handle it when it's towards me. But if I see somebody behaving that way towards somebody else, and I know I'm just, this is a question that's on the spy. So if the answer isn't there, then I'm sorry. But I feel like you probably have some words on this. What What do I do when I see that happen? When somebody the projection that you're talking about when I see somebody doing that, and I know, like you're saying that's violent? It's a different kind of violence, but I believe it's unnecessary and it's violent. How can I intervene in a way that's productive? Not in a way that's like, high and mighty and telling them that they're wrong and stepping on their, you know, blah, blah, blah, all that stuff? How can where's the solution? Like, how do we how do we work towards something that is productive? progressive, you know, whatever. Yeah. What do you think?

Phil GebbenGreen: 41:03

I do have lots of thoughts. Here's one, as a Christian pastor, for like, 20 years, I was trying to do that. And I was mostly doing it with my ego, like, saying it out loud, telling people how dumb that thinking is trying to give different ways of thinking like this is what Jesus is really talking about. Jesus I think is one of sort of the ultimate non projectors he just rejects all the projections put on him he doesn't do it to other people even says okay all your fears a death project them on me here, let's go, I'll die. Still doesn't work life. Okay, that's my theology and like, 20 seconds. But it wasn't working. Like it wasn't working for me, partly because it was coming out of anger, I could see all the bad theology and talk about it, and I could try to talk about good theology. Well, then Alex and Susan Olesek show up. And they're just living free. Insane, like, like crazy, you know, hippie shit. Like, what if we all just loved each other? You know, what if we just, what if there's nothing wrong with you? You know, what if we just talk about what's right with you? And again, it's almost you know, it's it's such eppp doctrine that it is, it's kind of funny at this point, but at the time and still knowing like, yes, yes, that's what that's how it's supposed to be. Let's get together and talk about what's right about each other. And so it's, it's doing the opposite of projecting. It's taking responsibility, and then loving each other. And when we do like, instead of projecting it's mirroring and mirroring the best of and so this this instinct to fight that is so quick in me this instinct to point out what's wrong with force and truth and self righteousness. Play that does that not work. And I'm 52 so I tried that for a good four decades and now I am trying something new and it's just, it's just been filled with love and sharing it and I know that sounds crazy, but that

Clay Tumey: 43:21

or as you called it, hippie shit. might be the first time Alex has been called a hippie That's good stuff. We were gonna talk to Susanne tomorrow I don't know what your expectations on time were tonight we're 45 minutes in I'm I'm good talking or I'm good stopping I just want to check with you to see where you're at. Yeah,

Phil GebbenGreen: 43:46

you know when we started I was getting a little tired but now I'm like completely revved up. Yeah, so I really I am like unformed dough in your hand. I will lead I will follow see there's my Type Eight I will lead and you will follow No, I will follow where you lead

Clay Tumey: 44:05

is the two lane highway will go down side by side. Yeah, that's the So you came to you can't get up there. They came here actually, you heard the presentation. You were down, you went to the GDP went to the all the other words that we have that I can't remember all the different classes are called. And then you started teaching here locally. In St. Paul, what's that? What's that been like? And by the way, correct me if I'm wrong, but this is the first Is it the first chapter

Phil GebbenGreen: 44:35

outside of California and that's what

Clay Tumey: 44:36

you said, Okay. I always want to make sure my words are right. So how was was that? How did that come about? Did you say hey, we want to do it or did they say hey, we need people and you said okay, and then you raised your hand like what was the process like to get ebp and to St. Paul, Minnesota?

Phil GebbenGreen: 44:55

Yeah, great question. The quick version and Suzanne can tell you more about this, but Susan And Minnesota chapter of the International Enneagram Association had been teaching the anagram in Shakopee and I forget there was a connection Socrates a prison, by the way, thank you for Shakopee. It's the only it's the state women's prison, okay, in Minnesota. Right and just like you say, San Quentin, we say Shakopee and Stillwater and Lionel lakes right? And we know what we're talking about Shakopee women's prison. had been teaching had a connection from some years ago through the chaplains office, I believe was teaching in Enneagram. Class Suzanne was teaching and realized we need something more like we're teaching the Enneagram. But this could be better like a workbook, for example. And then she met Susan lesyk, who had a workbook and we didn't even know how great DPP was, but they had a workbook so you know, praise the heavens. And now we're going to connect here and so there was already a connection of prism Enneagram being taught in the prison. There was already Suzanne Oh, for all of you know, Suzanne is just like an amazing human being like, not only is she smart and deep, but is like, also has this beautiful administrative brain that makes connections knows how to do things. I don't know, I'm not good at any of those things. If it had been up to me to start this in Minnesota, I think we'd still be dead in the water. So I've just followed on Suzanne's coattails is all I've been doing. So we went through the GTP together, also with Britt, who was so the three of us. Susan said, Yeah, I'll fly to Minnesota. And I'll I'll, I'll do your apprenticeship. And in the first class, well, that didn't happen at all. By the time we got through with our guide training program, Susan had other apprentices, she needed to train in California, but there were three of us, she had gotten to know us. And she said, I trust you three, let's start that class. So we taught that first class together, and right away. It was just beautiful and amazing. And so the prison liked it. We liked it. And we've we've been there ever since. Except for COVID. Which stopped everything.

Clay Tumey: 47:11

Was it This wasn't an eight week program at that point, or was it 12 weeks? What was the what was the process like

Phil GebbenGreen: 47:16

are their program calendar is quarterly, so it was a 12 week. So we were the first I think 12 week program and, and partly we saw liked it that modules. When I say modules one, two, and three, the guides don't we're talking about. But those first big modules where we do welcome. We talk about trauma and addiction, attachment, all those things in those first three modules to do them. Just Boom, boom, boom, fast was really hard. And so we could take a little bit longer to do them. We could do just one type of week rather than do three types in one week. So there were several things that having 12 weeks was beautiful, and it even ended up changing some other programs.

Clay Tumey: 48:02

Why is it because I've talked with other guides in the last episode, and I know the process and how the class, the syllabus, all that stuff. Why is it so important to start with trauma and to start with to go into addiction? What when we're talking you know, if I'm if I'm an inmate, I'm there for a crime, why don't you need to know about trauma? Why do I need to know about addiction? Why does this why does this matter?

Phil GebbenGreen: 48:29

So the other thing that Susan said, on that night when she visited Minnesota that changed my life. She just mentioned that and right. It was partly just the whole approach of EPP. But it was the immediate intuitive response that I'm like, just Enneagram but trauma and addiction. I was like yes. And I assume you kind of know how like a Type Eight instinctual type, like I'm a pretty smart guy. But half the time I'm not thinking at all. It's just a clear gut feeling. And so now you're asking me to explain that gut feeling and so what I would say is just like me 10 years not able to see my real tight 10 years not able to do deep Enneagram work but not see the deepest questions and challenges of who I am. And so, if we can be if I can be honest about what really happened to me. If I can be honest about the ways I am addicted to comfort seeking behaviors and addictions that keep me from looking honestly at myself. That's that's like tilling the soil before planting the seeds and can you just scatter seeds on open ground and get a certain amount of growth you can. But if you put good compost on that soil, and you till that soil and you care for the soil way better. So, you know, that's an old analogy, but that works for me. It also creates a kind of safe container to jump in and start talking about the types like, Hey, we are with you all the way down to the depth of who you are. We're with ourselves all the way down to taking a compassionate approach to our own addictions. And so that's, that creates juiciness and good soil. Yeah.

Clay Tumey: 50:46

Yeah, but what is it? Is there a difference between teaching this and talking about these topics? And a women's prison versus men's prison? Is it pretty much the same? Or are there some notable differences that you've seen?

Phil GebbenGreen: 51:01

Yeah, I also taught with Ambassador Renee, I taught a mixed gender class for the first time at the Santa Clara reentry center last spring and it was the first time ever although I've got to say at Shakopee, women's prison, there are some people going through, like gender reassignment surgeries and and and therapies and so that that was just happening in the last class we were doing and so I'm starting to think gender matters less and less and I'm not saying doesn't matter at all, like even Type Eight it matters quite a bit whether you're male or female and the voices you get so I don't mean to downplay that. But, but otherwise, I don't know that the first time that we did the ACE test was in San Quentin Prison. And the very first time I was there, the night it was done. And the first questions coming from the guys were have I messed up my kids? Yeah. And I thought that was gonna be the female's response. And it often is, but the first time that came was from the guys in San Quentin. So I To be honest, I see very little difference.

Clay Tumey: 52:13

We talked about the aces in the in the last episode, as well. And that is that is a starting point where an ace is an acronym By the way, that stands for adverse childhood experience, you got it and then I learned that the S of aces just means that there's sometimes more than one Adverse Childhood Experiences that's for sure maybe more than one okay 10 forgot that when I when I thought the same thing what you know even not even retrospectively or whatever, but just even in the moment I wonder like, what am I doing as a dad that's screwing up my kids and on one hand it's like I guess it's good to think that way cuz like maybe it's easier to prevent it but on the other hand, it's also like okay, that gets in the way man I don't want to be sad all the time and wondering like how I'm screwing up my kids and stuff like that so yeah, I'm not surprised that the guys are thinking that way too. Because I'm sure dude I mean we know numbers if you're in prison as a man as a father, your child is already x percentage more likely to go down that path sometimes and I say x because I don't know the actual math but it's more than a few percentage points. It's it's big time. We're rolling up on an hour here and it Time flies you know, as they say, I we're going to pause here

Phil GebbenGreen: 53:42

and think it's to talk about handball or sport at all.

Clay Tumey: 53:45

We didn't get to talk about the chili. Chili. We didn't talk about kinda I had some when we're driving you pick me up from the airport today by the way thanks again for that. And once I found the correct airport, yeah, well, you had the right airport. This is the terminal that was Yeah, but we were I was gonna leave all that out. But you brought it up. I should have wrote down I had some really funny zingers in the car that I that I thought to wait until now and they're all gone. But I you want to talk hambo we can talk handball, I'm down. What do you put your chili? We could go we could talk about that. Because the chili is good. But I want to give you a moment. And again, I'm putting you totally on the spot here. And there's no question I don't I'm not looking for any answer. I just, I just want to hear from you. What's on your mind what anything in particular that you want to share? That I didn't ask about or any anything that you have that's worth, you know, telling the listener or just anything and there's no time limit? Just go until you're done.

Phil GebbenGreen: 54:44

Oh, thank you. I'm thinking about something you said earlier today and you've actually said it several times. You've talked about as we talked about sports, and as you've talked about eppp that how much growth comes from walking towards Towards failure towards shame towards not being good at something. And an all I want to say is how often ebp keeps inviting me into that space. How much my ego is not wired that way. But how true that still is? How much Alex and Susan invited me into that how much you tonight have invited me into that space and how much that fell, I sat across from in San Quentin and the women in Shakopee prison. And that space is compassion. It's connection. It's forgiveness, it's life. And so that's big. I'm talking to myself, by the way, I am saying I am, there's a little part of my mind that's hoping this is inspiring for other people, but I'm just trying, the thing I want to say, or anything else is to say out loud, for myself, all Phil, it is okay to step towards the unknowing to step towards that space of learning. And I want to keep doing that. And, and anything that gets in the way of that like thinking, Oh, you're on the faculty of the MPP. Or you're the pert one of the people who gets to decide who gets to be a guide and doesn't like any, any bs that I'm telling myself, I want to let go of it. And, and today has been a beautiful reminder that, so thank you.

Clay Tumey: 56:52

So usually I say like 40 3045 ish, and then a clock right there. And then a guy got a clock right here to figure. So but there's no limit as what I'm saying, if it feels long, we can go for 30. If 45 feels too short, we can go for an hour and a half. There's no limit on Yeah, we'll just go. It's literally nobody going we make the rules up. This is our deal. And all of this can be deleted, right? It can be Yeah, and if and Robin is the magician, you know that I send it to after I'm done. So if he decides, you know what, maybe we don't put that in there, then it'll get cut out. Got it. But tell us who you are, where we are anything that you think is relevant to introduce yourself.

Susanne Gawreluk: 57:32

My name is Susanne Gawreluk. And I think it's relevant to know that Clay Tumey is in my house in Minnesota. He flew all the way up from Texas, and I am a faculty member, I am the most important thing. I'm a guide for ETP. And I also am leading the ebp, Minnesota, first local community outside of California. And we just actually started programming in Chicago as well. So the Midwest is alive and well.

Clay Tumey: 58:05

How far away is Chicago from we're in St. Paul,

Unknown: 58:07

right? Yes.

Clay Tumey: 58:08

I wasn't sure if we left St. Paul when we left Phil's house because you're not far away from Phil.

Unknown: 58:12

But now we're we are just a stone's throw away maybe two miles. So

Clay Tumey: 58:16

how far away is Chicago from here?

Unknown: 58:19

I would say seven or eight hours.

Clay Tumey: 58:21

Oh, so wise then?

Unknown: 58:22

Well, I mean, but really compared to California, Texas? Yeah. Well, I mean, further down 35.

Clay Tumey: 58:27

I mean, California is only it only takes long to get to other cities, because it's like just a long state. But you can go from the ocean to the eastern border of California in like a couple hours. It's not. And then Texas is just like a big giant. It's not literally a square, but it's more square ish. Yeah. Then, you know, then then California has. So the was the difference between a faculty and got not faculty, faculty and staff, because you talked about being an EP faculty, what is that?

Unknown: 58:57

Good question. Well, as a guide, I'd been guiding for, I don't know, maybe six months, and I got an email from Susan saying, Suzanne is now on faculty. And that's just kind of how it rolls.

Clay Tumey: 59:13

Did you know that you were going to be on faculty? No. Okay, cool.

Unknown: 59:16

I'm really although I had just gotten more involved beyond guiding just because of being in Minnesota, not at the mothership of California and like, how do we transition from my teaching a basic Enneagram class to bringing in the EP programming kind of was our journey, because I didn't start with EP in custody programming. I started through the Minnesota IAEA board, okay. I was asked if I wanted to be an outreach person and come on the board and I was like, Yeah, I reach that sounds interesting. Now I'll let's do that. And then when I got on the board, they said and by the way, we do a basic Enneagram class at Shakopee women's prison. So that'll be part of your board responsibility in my God, prison and the Enneagram. together. That's really an interesting concept. What year was that? That was 2015. And so in 2016, I went in with a fellow board member and taught a basic Enneagram class for about a year and a half. And really quickly, I was like, oh, man, the blue book, the wisdom of the Enneagram, by Russ Hudson and Dan Russo is amazing. It's the text that we use with eppp. But that was the book that we were using. And I really realized quickly, you know, what, when the women, if they get rolled up or move to another facility or something, sometimes all of their notes and everything are taken from them. And so I was like, I need a workbook. How can I create a workbook? Where could I get funding? What would that even look like? And so in 2017, on really a wing and a prayer, I was like, if I go to one of the IAA international Enneagram Association, conferences, maybe I can find someone else who teaches and has a workbook. I wasn't like, typically for teaching in prison. Yeah. Well, yeah. And I that, like, seriously, I'm gonna ask the universe to have that person also be in prison. But let's just see, and we got to the conference hadn't even checked in the first person that I met. You know, I'm like, I'm Suzanne, who are you? And said, Oh, my name is Laura. And I'm like, what do you do with the Enneagram? And she's like, I teach the Enneagram in a women's prison. And I was like, Oh, my God, can I ever met Laura? And I'm like, God, thank you. Like, seriously, that took two seconds,

Clay Tumey: 1:01:48

by the way, you're you're, you're in San Antonio, when that happens. Yeah. And you're from Minnesota. Where's Laura from?

Unknown: 1:01:56

Finland? Yes. I was like Finland, like, I know, that's in the north, and it's a really cold place. But I didn't like it didn't matter. Like, are you serious? Like, this woman teaches in a women's prison. And she's like, Well, you know, Susan Olesek, with the Enneagram Prison Project, right? Like you're you live in the United States. She's in California, like, I don't know who you're talking about. I've heard there's somebody in California doing something. And she said, Okay, I'll introduce you to Susan. And that was where I met her at dinner that night, and completely has turned my life.

Clay Tumey: 1:02:31

I always thought, like, I hear quotes, and I think that'd be a good t shirt, but they're always like the wrong quotes. And I think that's another good eppp t shirt idea, just word somebody in California, we're doing something. I could let Rick know about that. And my T shirt ideas are like they giggle and they say, Oh, that's a good idea. And then they literally never happened. So

Unknown: 1:02:48

I hope someone's keeping a list of those, because I've heard a few and they're good. Yeah, That's great.

Clay Tumey: 1:03:03

I think it's a good idea. I don't think Susan thinks it's a good idea. I don't know I'm trying

Unknown: 1:03:08

that i would i would roll with that on my back.

Clay Tumey: 1:03:11

So you said a phrase and talking about, you know, women getting moved to other facilities or whatever. And I like to go back and revisit phrases that the regular non incarcerated folks know you said rolled up or moved or whatever, what is what is rolled up when you're locked up?

Unknown: 1:03:26

If you're locked up and there's something that is being questioned by the CEO is the correction officer there's a facility in general if they think something is not okay going on in your cell that you're living with, which could be with one person or you could be in a room with, I think the most is one by six, like 12 women, they come in and pretty much everything that you own is tossed. You know, they flip your bed, they go through all your personal items, and anything that isn't considered required is taken from you contraband, contraband, and that would be your personal notes that you take in a class.

Clay Tumey: 1:04:05

So how do you deal with that? If you have a student who comes in and says, you know, like, all my shits gone, like all these notes that I took in this class, that means something to me, and obviously you can't do it, you can't go tell the word like, Hey, give me give me my shit back. No notes back, but how do you handle that? And that's kind of a bummer.

Unknown: 1:04:23

It's a big bummer. That's your PR that's like your diary. These notes are their personal journey to heal themselves to understand themselves and pre EP, it had to just be like, that is a bummer. What can I do about that? So that was part of the drive for me to find, find or create this workbook. And that way because that is part of what they're given, when you're in a program, you come on in and you're welcomed with the wisdom of the Enneagram book and then our EP workbook so that would not be taken from you

Clay Tumey: 1:04:59

know, so they can keep notes and all that kind of stuff in the workbook itself. Is there a place in the back or front or

Unknown: 1:05:05

robinair amazing EP designer has blank pages with lines for you to take notes and places he knows in our curriculum that there's note taking, or this is a meaty part I want I want to write something here. He leaves space for people to take their notes. Yeah,

Clay Tumey: 1:05:20

Robin Grant is so amazing that we praise his empty pages. Yes. And I'm not that's not a joke. It's funny to me to say, but it's literally that is how that's how amazing and how much we respect Robin Grant as an artist, absolutely. The lines on the paper.

Unknown: 1:05:38

And the little people too. Yeah. So apart,

Clay Tumey: 1:05:43

you were invited into prison, it wasn't like you had this calling to the incarcerated or anything like that, or whatever phrase you like to use is just like an invitation that you accepted. Did you have any experience prior to that with incarceration, friends, family, neighbors, chance encounters anything like that? Did you have any experience with prison prior to that? Well, interestingly

Unknown: 1:06:05

enough, is when I first went on the board, I had always wanted to do jury duty, because I, in my early life had been a legal secretary. And I was like, oh, jury duty that would be cool to never been called. And so I was I was finishing my master's degree, and it was called the jury duty. And I'm like, I can't, I'm finishing and they're like, Okay, well, then the second time they came around, you get called, and you don't get to say I can't come. And it was right at the end when I had to present my colloquium. And I'm like, Okay, if I get on a case, I gotta be out of here on Friday, and they're like, Oh, yeah, don't worry about it by God, on the first case, the first panel, and it was a big case, it was kidnapping. Children were involved, there was five big counts against this person. And that is the first time that I did jury duty and sat through listening to the 911 tapes played over and over and got into the argument with everybody in the jury room. It was just a it was a, it was a front page case in Minnesota. And so for me, I was like, dang, this is I hadn't really out of my own privilege. thought much about what is that to be taken out of society? What is that to be put in this place? And here I'm holding a man's life in our hands in all these different counts that he's going to do time within he had five children. Yeah. So when they said that, that's maybe for me why that's a really significant part of my story is when they I was on the board that they Oh, and you're going to go into you have this opportunity. I was like, What? a? I am a Type Four on the Enneagram. So it's always about what what I have to offer, who am I to do this? And I pretty quickly just turn to what my thing to Karen, my coat guide or teacher at the time, I said, but do they want to do the work? Like if you go in and bring the Enneagram? Like, what's the response? And she's like, Oh, my gosh, it's just a gift for them to see themselves and what's right about them and all the things that epcs curriculum has rolled around. And so pretty quickly, I just turned to actually I don't care where someone lives. Okay, big house, little house, so I don't care. I want to know, do you want to do the work of uncovering the mystery of who you are, and what's right about you and who we can be? Because that's the proverbial journey for the Type Four.

Clay Tumey: 1:08:39

So you talking about the jury duty thing, and these are always I don't know why my brain goes here. But this is what I hear. Like, even with Phil talking last night about some, you know, talking to guy, a guy about his charges. And it's, it's interesting to me how, what I hear in your telling of that story, as you're talking about holding this man's life in your hands, is you're on the jury. And I think the standard thought for most people in society would be like, you know, screw that guy, you know, because what he did, or maybe even when we don't know that he did it or whatever. And it's normal for us, like in this in this community, like in the circles that we run in, like we think about the guy, we think about the lady behind the crime or whatever. But I don't know what what the and I just what would you say to somebody who said like, Who cares? Like that's a criminal. And whether it's the guy that you did jury duty duty on or the people that are in prison, you know, in your classes, like, why do we care about people on the inside, like they're there for a reason and they can't really they don't deserve a place in society. So why don't we put so much effort into that?

Unknown: 1:09:51

Because I don't believe that anybody doesn't deserve their place in society and anyone that is encouraged serrated, okay, they something went wrong in their life, they have been sentenced. And when they're done, they're going to be my neighbor. I'm going to see them in the grocery store. They're going to be at the library, our kids are going to be together, why wouldn't we want to? the criminal justice system, you know, we won't even go into all the

Clay Tumey: 1:10:20

we can go there. We can go there, too. I started way

Unknown: 1:10:23

after that. They did there. They that's been taken care of. And so saying, this is about prison reform was. My my thought is, we're a family. We're all on this globe together. And are we actually doing any reform on the inside that snap this discussion, and if I can be part of anyone, I don't care where you live, if you're my neighbor, and you beat your kids afterwards, but nobody catches you and you don't do time. We're how criminals like Can anyone really sit with themselves and say, I have never done one thing that if I would have been caught, I wouldn't have had to have some type of repercussion for I think that's few and far apart.

Clay Tumey: 1:11:13

So what's the crime you never got caught for? Let's talk about that claim. It was worth a try. It was I you know what? I was just gonna sit and wait like I was a

Unknown: 1:11:25

teenager. I want to cry. Yeah, yeah. We have our fun days and 90 days.

Clay Tumey: 1:11:32

Yeah. All right. Cool. Well, we'll leave it at that. How is this so far for you, by the way, just sitting here chatting, because before

Unknown: 1:11:38

I started, just feel like we're having a conversation. Okay.

Clay Tumey: 1:11:41

Because I don't think that it was, we'll just say it nicely. I don't think you're necessarily looking forward to like being in front of a mic. And there's some anxiety maybe that was there. Yeah. So it's all good.

Unknown: 1:11:50

I love having a conversation anytime with anybody about what the Enneagram Prison Project is, what it represents, where their place is in this family. But I have a personality and I am a withdrawal type, like I feel my tics maybe are a little red flag to me. It's it's eppp. And everything that we do is it's bigger than that.

Clay Tumey: 1:12:17

I talking to it. And I'm glad you brought your type into this. Because I don't one of the reasons I don't introduce people as I as I don't want to say things that they might not want to talk about, and names and types, all that stuff simple. But I just think it's fun to just let them say as much upfront and then other stuff eventually comes out anyway. So you bring up type and I'm glad you did because if I'm talking to one of the let's just say more outgoing or assertive types as we say like it's easy to imagine a Type Eight going into prison in teaching. It's easy to imagine even like a Type Five who like all that makes sense to me like Susan is a Type One like it. But how is it? What is what is it like as a teacher, we call them guides. I'd still sometimes say teacher but I will. What is it like being withdrawn type and going in and presenting yourself to the inmates and because a very important part of teaching on the inside is making a connection before you transfer any information like if you don't have that connection, and correct me if I'm wrong, by the way, I don't I've never taught on the inside. I've only been taught on the inside. So if that's not true, please correct me but I would think that making a connection first is helpful if not necessary. And as a withdrawn type, what does that look like? How do you do it? What do you how do you go about it? It's a fresh group of people who've never seen you before and you've never seen them what's step one for you?

Unknown: 1:13:46

Well, step one for me is on my way there I just really find myself you know, where am I? Where am I going usually we co guide and I've co guided with Phil and we have three other guides in Minnesota Debbie Moe and Britt and we have our little debrief like what's happening in our families in our lives where are we at and then when we get there you know okay now let's ground to each other kind of like you have you have responsibility for yourself responsibility because Alright, we're going in, I got your back you got mine if I miss something like there's such a open trust between us. That's important. And then we get into the classroom and for me as a Type Four depends who I'm with for one thing, but it's just a Type Four life can be about me and my story and I can get tumble into that fun dark place or very light place but nobody else has to be part of it as withdrawal type and yet, I want to get into a room I just see potential. I see hurting people that I know they have that divine spark inside of themselves. And guess what we're going to go there we're going to dive deep and find that and the the more aggressive types that do on Push, I'm like, yeah, bring it. Yeah, then we're really wrestling and doing the work together. So it I have a Type Three wing, which is an assert of Type Two. I lean into that, for sure. And it's humbling and just an honor to be in front of a fellow human being that really wants to uncover and discover. How can I move on and be my best self in a really ugly place? And that is a big freakin ask. Oh, here common, uncover how amazing you are. And then when you go out in the hall, you might get your ass kicked. Yeah, like I understand what we are asking. And it's worth the ask because we're all worth seeing who we are. And as guides, we hold that sacredly and close the class down before they go back out into the general population, or wherever they're in the institution. And it's amazing to see and hear how quickly Wow, I have this information about myself, that I can take and share with the other people in my pod, or we had a situation at Shakopee women's prison where there was a lockdown. And they never know how long is that going to last that they're locked down means you're stuck in your cell meals are brought to you, you do not get any outside time you are. I mean, imagine you're in this small space,

Clay Tumey: 1:16:32

with a size of a small bedroom.

Unknown: 1:16:35

With how many people 24 seven, like I have the freedom during the pandemics the closest thing to our lockdown, and we

Clay Tumey: 1:16:45

understand that what the words mean, exactly tiny taste of it.

Unknown: 1:16:49

And so to be locked for a week. actually think it was two weeks by the time I was done when we came back to the class, I'm like, ladies, how are you? And every woman in that class said, I didn't go to sag segregation where they got in a fight and they're taken out. I didn't beat anybody up I wanted to but I actually didn't, because I could look at them and see their type like there becomes this understanding and compassion for themselves and those they're in community with. And we have been teaching at Shakopee rumens prison cells from 2017 until now. And when people come into our class, they don't have to start at the beginning and figure out what's their type they come in actually, oh, someone's told me my type or it's rare anybody comes in and doesn't have a clue of what their type is previous even starting the class so it brings in healing to the community, less violence within themselves within them that they're in community with within the institutional people. So it's, it's just a tool that does its work of transformation.

Clay Tumey: 1:17:54

Do you have graduates or I don't know if you call them people who people who complete it's a 12 week?

Unknown: 1:18:01

course it's an eight module course and we we run 12 weeks because it's Minnesota and usually between ice and snow and lockdowns and things like that we get about 10 weeks. Okay, cool.

Clay Tumey: 1:18:11

So you have you have no apparent I had no idea. So now when somebody completes a class, are they able to come back after that? And do more? Or is it just like one and done kind of thing? How does that work?

Unknown: 1:18:24

Yeah, we have a really nice rapport with the program manager. And she makes sure that anybody that has program and wants to come in a second time that we want them back because they're really our teachers, and they really help hold the class and guide us and them and yeah, it's beautiful.

Clay Tumey: 1:18:44

What kind of support do you get from the facility or the or the the Minnesota I guess, prison system itself? I think the reason I asked is because it feels like a lot of time we we shit on the correction system and I hate saying correction correction systems anyways, just because, right? There are pockets of good stuff going on. There are as a whole I think the American prison situation is embarrassing, it's awful and terrible. And then within that there are pockets of goodness, people like nealon wadhwani out in California and people here who I don't know their names, but their that exists in areas and so what kind of support so I don't know if that's even the case here. What kind of support does the bigger like umbrella give you?

Unknown: 1:19:29

I would say that Minnesota itself has a lot of potential and hope and Shakopee women's prison has about 620 women went pre pandemic, and they had 450 volunteers coming in and out. Okay,

Clay Tumey: 1:19:50

so almost one to one. Yeah, that's almost like two to three ratio. So

Unknown: 1:19:54

it is the only facility as a prison for women in Minnesota. And They're one of the highest programming women's facilities in the nation so that's really a gold star from Minnesota and anyone that we deal with on the inside is supportive to us because very quickly they saw like wow this like changes things I've had to CEOs come in like for our night class if it ends at nine they're like come on Tic Tac we have pill call we have cone and the women don't want to leave the classroom of course Come on, get out get out. And then they came back and said, What do you do in here? Like what is it that you're teaching because they want to come to class early and then they don't want to leave? And it's like, right? Because they're seeing who they are and they're doing the work do

Clay Tumey: 1:20:40

the guards, CEOs whatever we call them do they they pick their head in sometimes to just I don't even know if they're allowed to be in class or anything how does that what is what's the setup

Unknown: 1:20:52

is either we're programming in a chapel which is down a little bitty Hall and they pretty much once they get us in the room close the door see Yeah, we've don't want to be and literally and then there's a classroom to that now that we've grown in there's another classroom space and it's the same thing what you go through a library you get to that class space, and they leave us they leave us there so

Clay Tumey: 1:21:15

if they wanted to pick their head in and stay are they are the guards allowed to

Unknown: 1:21:19

the guards? Yeah, as you very well know they can do what they want. And they do like we may be in the middle of a teaching the door opens and they three guys you know come in or three of the sales come in and move through the class. They don't say Oh, excuse me, Suzanne Yeah, you know, they just come in do whatever I don't even know what they're doing. And we just stop stand there, wait and proceed. Let's fight

Clay Tumey: 1:21:43

out here in the free world we go to these retreats and we go up to the mountains we spend 1000s of dollars to have peace and tranquility and all this stuff. And this is where we we look for our healing you know, and I'm not to say that none of that is okay, but it's all it's all good. But it's not a reality in prison at all. Because at any given point, you could just be like Hey, your little concentrated focus thing you got going on stop that for a second, we need to count and make sure nobody escaped

Unknown: 1:22:07

or though can walk into a room and say so and so let's go

Clay Tumey: 1:22:12

Yeah, they're pulled out for what they know.

Unknown: 1:22:17

And and that's very obviously disturbing and rattling and that's reality.

Clay Tumey: 1:22:21

So as a teacher as a guide, how do you I mean, you can't ignore it, but you also do you just keep going do you just do acknowledge that to the class if especially if you're having a moment because it can get pretty deep I make it you know, talking about the intagram talking about our lives talking about all this stuff, it can we can go to some pretty serious places where for a moment you can forget that you're on the inside and you forget that you're in prison because you're having such a real conversation and such a deep moment that your physical surroundings don't matter. And then you have a guy come in here and yell out a last name and snipe somebody how do you get back to what you had without it being like some kind of artificial Okay, let's go back to being serious or whatever, you know, how do you how do you manage that as a guide,

Unknown: 1:23:06

kind of the the gift is our breath, it's the same thing that I can do on the outside if I get reactivity or blow up about something just Can I come back to my breath in the moment and just take a pause so someone came in something happened they leave and then we just give it a little space and I'll look at each other like okay, I think that whatever that is you know i hope things go well for whoever just left the class could we all just take a minute and take a breath and we start our classes with presence practice and that becomes part of the gift of the Enneagram is can I stop enough to notice myself so suggesting also that the students do presence practices during the week when they're not in class? So the breath is kind of that first space and we use that as the tool

Clay Tumey: 1:23:55

what is good what is what is the presence practice that you teach them to like early on in their in their you know practices that it's easy for them to remember is easy for them to do? What do you how do you coach them in that direction?

Unknown: 1:24:08

Good question. Um, depending on what the curriculum is for the week we try to have a five minute presence practice that if we're teaching body types let's get into our bodies can you feel your feet can you feel your seat Can you we talk about the body if it's a heart centered

Clay Tumey: 1:24:22

thing myself

Unknown: 1:24:25

and if it's a heart centered we can we breathe into that space just breathing in and out or so we every week, it's on the fly the guides just answer to what's maybe happening in the class I could have the women come in the class and everybody's rattled and what's what's what's up this week, what's happening, and they may say that my pad mate had a baby this morning, and she's devastated because your children are taken away from you after you deliver. We do Have a beautiful doula program. And I'm happy to say that I just saw that Shakopee now has mandated that they have a separate housing unit that anyone who's had a child gets to keep their baby in prison for a year with them. So that's beautiful. But I've had many women come into class and either they've had their child and it's been taken away, or their roommate or their pad may have had their child taken away, or someone committed suicide, or they got a diagnosis that they have cancer. I mean, life doesn't stop the realities of life, the pain of missing your children, all of those realities are part of our class. And sometimes that literally informs what we do in the class, and we just wrap that into our personality, and how can we hold compassion for each other? It's

Clay Tumey: 1:25:45

a, I, I gotta be honest, it's like a punch to the gut to just hear this idea of delivering a baby in prison and then immediately gone. And it's an we deal with pain, we talk about pain, we, we have it, it's part of life and all that stuff. And I don't know why. Like, it's like, the why that exists. Why that's a reality. For some people. I know the technical aspects of well, because you're in prison, and you had a baby. So what else you know, blah, blah, blah, all that stuff. But it still is just such a massive kick to the gut for me just hearing that, just like and I don't know if there's just so much pain that it's just we're used to talking about it and going on through that, but I don't know. I don't know. I would I would guess that I'm not the only one to hear that and go like, wait a sec, what the fuck? Yeah, this is more like we think prison a lot. And we think man, we think criminal, we think violence, we think all these things. But when you hear prison, you don't, you don't, you don't really think mother and not getting to sit with a baby that she just had. And it's not I don't know, it doesn't seem right. doesn't sit doesn't seem fair. So

Unknown: 1:26:55

not right. And more than 80% of the women that are in Shakopee, are moms. And I don't know the stat for men in prison that are dads. But yes, the pain of missing their children. One of women in our class was a mom of 11. And negotiating with her 18 year old how to navigate her children while she's in prison. And I have had the case where another person in our class unfortunately, killed her children. And that puts you in a really dangerous situation. And both of those can be held in the same class. And we have to find space within ourselves and within our students to hold both of that in a classroom. And the Enneagram is a tool that helps with that.

Clay Tumey: 1:27:46

When you say it puts them in a really dangerous situation. Are those like mothers who've killed their their children? Is that the worst crime you can commit and be incarcerated with other women? Yes. So where I didn't know that I never thought I'd never even crossed my mind, frankly. And you know, then in men's prisons, it's you don't want to be a rapist, you don't wanna be a sex offender, you don't want to be what we call chomo. You know, you don't want to, that's the worst. And you just, you get extorted these days, you know, they turn it into a business venture, you know, other people extort you for your money. I never even I never even crossed my mind that that would be the worst and a women's prison.

Unknown: 1:28:25

It's kind of both ends of that spectrum, the birth of your child and then having mental illness or whatever issues that that was part of the reason that brought you into the classroom.

Clay Tumey: 1:28:36

Are there requirements in terms of, I don't know, like security levels, with different inmates for different crimes or whatever. Are there different groups who do classes together? Or is everybody just doing it all together?

Unknown: 1:28:49

Shakopee is really a unique campus, if you it's in a neighborhood for one. And this, by the way, looks like a college campus clay. In a neighborhood. There's housing around it. There's an elementary school across the street. And when I first started programming there, we drove up and it's like, all these little what looked like dorms on a college campus, the dorm buildings and then a big main building, there wasn't even a gate around it or a fencing around it. But then quickly after that first year, what they had was a shocking fences at different levels of shock as you move to try to move out of the space, but yes, they did put up a fence. It's a big metal fence that has these funny bars that roll to the inside, which usually would be on the outside. So it's very unassuming when you see it and these separate housing units. Like I mentioned about the moms if you've had your child now there's a housing unit that you can live there. It's a level one to five prison meaning different levels of crimes, you're there, you know, different. There aren't different yards. It's all in one space, but you live in different things. units and leave. They've been very creative to say, we're finding that mixing crime levels in housing makes it's a not a good mix, and they've gotten creative and done different things through the years.

Clay Tumey: 1:30:14

Do you know and again, I'm just stuck on the the baby thing? Do you? Do you know what the numbers are? Or any any broads? statistics with regards to the percentage of babies who were born into that environment with their mom in prison? What's the what are the? What are the chances that that baby grows up to offend?

Unknown: 1:30:33

That's an excellent stat that I would probably cringe to see. And I can't answer to what it is. But I would wonder,

Clay Tumey: 1:30:41

I know with with, when I was locked up, I know that that among the dads there was something like 60% of children whose dad was in prison would grow up to be in prison, to some extent themselves. So just and I, I don't know, I don't know what I this is where it would probably be helpful for me to be on the internet like information, but I don't, as you can see, I don't do any of that. Now on a big note, not a big fan of preparation. So we just sit and chat. And I think this is fun. By the way, it started raining, this is kind of calming, or at least it is for me. Yeah. I wrote down a note a minute ago. And all I wrote was one word skeptics. And I don't remember what you're talking about when I said it. But I think well, first of all, how do women get into your class? Are they recruited? Do they sign up for it? Are they are they forced in? And? And then the continuing question from that is like, how often do you get ladies coming in and just be like, Man, this is bullshit.

Unknown: 1:31:42

Well, DPP in general, take our programming, we asked the institution not to force anyone to come into the class, because who inside or outside, can't make someone want to do personal work, I can fake it right? And give you what you want. But that's not the point. So we do that is kind of the one thing we say is, can we only have people who choose to want to do their own work come into the classroom? And, and roll with that? And yeah, okay, because they have so much programming, or did I should say, because all the programming has been shut down for a year and a half, and there is nothing happening there at all, which is really painful. So they, the women come into the class, and every class, I can say, okay, so everyone here, you're here, by your own choice, you want to do this work, you've you signed up for it, because they get a little booklet, here's the classes, you sign up, like literally sign your name to do it. And they come in the class and go, I didn't sign up for this.

Clay Tumey: 1:32:46

And that's happened before. Almost every

Unknown: 1:32:49

class, okay? There's one and I'm always like, Okay, how are we going to roll? Who's the Where is it? Where it let's do it. And actually, it kind of invite that because then it's like, okay, you don't want to be here. You didn't sign up for this class, even though there's a piece of paper here with your signature on it. And I've had the program. Meghan van curl is just an amazing programmer. And she'll come and go here, this is your signature, you sign this and I'm like, but I didn't I don't know whose signature that is. Okay, well, let's work with that. Yeah. And so I just invite them to Shakopee. If you are signed up for a program, and you get booted, or you don't finish programming, you can end up in sag, because that's a big privilege to get to program. And then you're not usually allowed to sign up the next round of programming. And programming helps you when you go to the parole board or when you are released, how you are released into what facility by the work that you've done on the inside. And there's a point system with that. So they come in, say, Nope, I'm not the one. And I'm like, Alright, well, then I just invite you. Because unless you want to go out and get in trouble, that's up to you, but I invite you will you just stay in here what it's about day one, and after that we'll talk and if you want out, I will work with you to get out.

Clay Tumey: 1:34:10

And there's not like assignments or there's not like work that they have to do or anything like that. That would like if you're if I'm a kid, and I'm in math, I have to do math. Is it like that with being in your class? Like if I'm there, can I just sit and listen and not do anything?

Unknown: 1:34:23

You can. But good luck with that. Because we're always going to come back to you. So we always if someone comes in Yeah, maybe they just want to burn a few hours to not have to sit in their cell. Now the camera I'm all about figuring out who I am and they're just great. That's information right there to what's going on. Maybe I am on withdrawal type and I'm really just doing my thing checking out the class, do you know your shit or don't you know you should or you followship and then and that's just part of the game with the whole class. And we do intentionally set a container in the room of agreements like if you're in the class, you respect each other and Anything shared in the class is not shared out of the class because actually that's like a commodity to be really has to be respected in prison that anything shared really has to stay there and the women quickly find like this is different like that we're actually are agreeing to do that and that's really the only way that the actual work can be done and I haven't had any money anyone I've had that outlier and I'm like yes maybe outlier and we'll just see and gives you by the end there they're in

Clay Tumey: 1:35:31

do it keep in touch with you when when they when they get out Have you had anybody like when I got out I was literally days before I messaged Susan and said hey, I'm free now. Do you have people who look you up on Facebook or find your email address anywhere, anything like that,

Unknown: 1:35:44

and every state is different. And in Minnesota, if anyone that has programmed with me sees me on the outside within two years of their release, and I see them I'm required to call the present and report that we saw each other or that I was approached or that so although you're a free person, you're not free you're not so free,

Clay Tumey: 1:36:13

is that even if they didn't make bro like if they did their whole time, and there's no parole,

Unknown: 1:36:17

that means if they they did whatever their situation is that's just if if you have programmed and you see a student or you're approached by student on the outside, and but we've found I'm like there's got to be a workaround. That's crazy because how am I how are we ever going to call the people that get out to be an ambassador, which is part of the PPS programming that if you've programmed on the inside and then you get out we continue to have reconnection meetings once a week that Sue Lambert beautifully is supported with other guides as a connection place and there's other opportunities to continue to support not only them but their loved ones with the Enneagram on the outside. So there is a workaround we found it and we just have to have the warden sign off that the person that we had as a student and that us that relationship is for continued education or you have to have the reasons why and the warden signs off on it

Clay Tumey: 1:37:14

so it's it's person by person you have to individually have that

Unknown: 1:37:19

paperwork in prison Yeah, and you know how quickly that goes Of

Clay Tumey: 1:37:22

course so you know not only that but you have Who then is it on to ask for that as it you know, you have I don't know how many people you have in a class but 2030 1050 whatever it is, of all those people do you offer to the first of all, did they initiate the paperwork? Or do you initiate the paperwork with the warden?

Unknown: 1:37:41

What we tell our students from day one and all the way through is they have a name nameplate with their name on it and on the backside is the contact information for EP and then they have the amazing workbook and on the back of that is the contact information so that is on anyone that gets out please contact eppp and we will move forward with keeping you connected. If and when that happens. Then I'm like okay, I got to get on the paperwork

Clay Tumey: 1:38:08

Okay, so you don't have to do it preemptively. You can do it after it happens

Unknown: 1:38:13

well they don't call me directly it goes to ebp headquarters

Clay Tumey: 1:38:18

what the what is why does that rule or law or why is that there? I mean on the service like okay yeah, you don't want them to get buddy buddy with you know, look, you know, look them up and do things bah bah bah it's tough but like really Who the hell is getting hurt there? I mean

Unknown: 1:38:34

let's talk about that. Okay, because they're a free person Yeah, so the the logic behind that Hi, I don't know and maybe they've had situations where someone got out and something went down and now this is a new thing. I've never heard of that in others other state Yeah.

Clay Tumey: 1:38:49

No, it's not a thing. There are there are rules for example, you can't you can't if you're a volunteer in some states I know like this is I think this is the case in Texas. You can't have like you can't be in a relationship with someone like the dating remote romantic relationship with someone who either just got out or has been out or something there's something in that neck of the woods That's true. And I even when I disagree I can say that I understand it. Yeah, that makes sense. But what I don't get like if I get out like you're um you know, I'm seeing you weekly or sometimes daily or whatever if I'm in your class on the inside right? And now and now I graduate to freedom and all of a sudden I have this restriction of no communication with the person who helped me find my way a little bit. It doesn't seem it doesn't seem okay. I'm glad that there's like an exception it seems or a loophole or whatever. Have have we successfully traversed that loophole yet has there any has there been anybody who's been in touch with you in the paperwork went through and now they're in contact with you or anything like that.

Unknown: 1:39:56

I have had a situation where I just went to a rescue And it happened to be a restaurant that one of my former students was working at. That's fine in a cent on both sides of our part. Yeah. Right. And so I'm like, Okay, what do I do here? Like, I want to run over and give them a hug and welcome them and the right thing to do all that, like normal. And that could be a problem for them. And so I pretended that I didn't see them. And

Clay Tumey: 1:40:29

did they see you? Did they play? They pretend that you did. Also it was there was a lot of pretending going on.

Unknown: 1:40:39

There could have been some pretending and a beautiful connection. Maybe that happened. Yeah.

Clay Tumey: 1:40:43

It's It's cool. Like, that's cool. But it's also such a bummer. Because it's so against. Like, I don't think humans are meant to do that. I don't think that we're like, supposed to just pretend at a distance. Like it's almost like you see, you know, kids that used to be friends with and your parents like got in a fight. And now you're not allowed to play with your friends because your parents are assholes. Right? And it's a bummer. And it's not your fault. But you still suffer the consequences. Yeah. And I can't see that as a healthy thing. And I don't I know that, you know, like, like I said earlier, I think we do prison wrong. And this is just another example of how ridiculous that could be. So who's the person to change that? Like if somebody you know, who's the big dog in Minnesota? Who could be like, hey, big dog isn't dumb. Like, for real? All the stuff you do? Like, we might not see eye to eye on everything. But this one thing right here is actually you're bringing people back because of it.

Unknown: 1:41:39

Well, I'm appreciative that there is the out. And the paperwork can be done and be signed. And and there so yeah. I don't fight that fight. I just do. Yes, sir. type of paperwork. And here you go.

Clay Tumey: 1:41:54

Yeah, man, you're better than I am. I don't I don't have that. I don't know how that works. Which is why you go into prison voluntarily. And I went in, not voluntarily go. I want to get something from my phone that I meant to get. I want to read something. Yeah. Ask Dana the other day.

Unknown: 1:42:15

Oh, here we go. Here we go.

Clay Tumey: 1:42:19

I sent her a text message. You know, I talked to Dana all the time.

Unknown: 1:42:23

And Dana is a fellow guide at DPP and we spend probably more time together than I do with any other even family member that I have working on curriculum for eppp.

Clay Tumey: 1:42:35

She, she sings your praises, we'll put it that way. And if she was on episode, the last episode, actually. So I was I sent her a text and you know, it's time here we talked about, it's not that bad. It's just if I don't even remember what she said, I just remember that I asked her now I'm going to read the message. She said that I said, you know, we're talking about coming to Minnesota talking to you feel blah, blah, blah. And I said, Are there any fun questions that I this is my literal text, any fun questions I should hit her with? And then being the keyword? Yeah, well, you know, it's tomato. And, and it's and I got a good long answer. She said, I don't know if this is relevant, or how you could fit it in. But she and I were just talking about how sacred the bioprocesses and receiving the student receiving what the student gives us, and then returning our offering, we both have a ritual. That and she says it's not a fun question. And the way that I've worded it was Do you have anything fun to hit her with? But yeah, that's just my way of using euphemism. So that that was she talks about the bio process and how sacred that is. And I guess you too, recently had a conversation about it. So I'm, it's actually not a scary question. That's something that's that I would, I would love to hear from

Unknown: 1:43:49

you about. Yeah, I'd love to share about that. Part of EPPs programming is that we ask students to do six pieces of homework and each one of them is required, as well as attendance to get your completion certificate. And the most vulnerable one is asking people to turn in a bio which is sharing at the level and comfort that they're interested in from age zero, up until 18, or further if they choose. And I'm currently programming virtually in Colorado with a men's prison and someone turned in over 30 pages in their bio, and I've written Yes, and I've had a gentleman in the UK turn in, like three sentences, a fellow Type Five clay, that from day one said I will, I'm not going to do the homework and I'm not going to talk in class, but I'll be here and I'm like, great, we welcome you wherever you're at with that. And when he handed me that paragraph, I thought That's this. That's the work he found himself valid enough, important enough and safe enough to give us something to answer back to them. And the BIOS, the guides, take the information, read through it, and then we answer back. And these are some very tender stories, whether you're inside or outside, we've all had trauma. That's how we get to have a personality in the first place. And part of our curriculum as well as the Enneagram is talking about childhood trauma, and how, how did we get there? And what's toxic stress, and what is our resiliency factors and holding all of that. And we do an ace test, which you talked about in a previous podcast, which is 10 questions that asks specifically, to score yourself on what your range is. And many of our students, it's a one through 10 are definitely five, and over many are at 10. So to hold that pain and have it reflected back to them, that often, the traumas that happened to us in childhood is the garbage that we're carrying thinking as part of our reality and who we are today. And part of the healing is being able to look at that and set that down. And we didn't maybe get the mirroring, or we didn't get a protective person or a nurturing person with us whether that and that can be a coat, that could be an odd it could be your caregiver. But this bio is a place that we reflect back from their personality type, and Gabor Ma Tei, and vessel Vander cough and other experts that support our EP programming. And we hand that back to them. And that can be our big turn in their healing.

Clay Tumey: 1:46:56

What kind of responses Do you see in them when they first of all, as an inmate, you're not heard very often, you're not nobody gives a shit. For the most part, you have random people who care but as just generally speaking, everybody in prison is having the worst day of their life. So good luck finding any sympathy or compassion or anything like that. So when you write a bio, when I write a bio, and I give it to you, just the fact that I can write it down is is one level of goodness. And then you're giving me something back that now somebody else has read it, they took the time. And they've also written down things for me to read. So I can see where that is. You know, the word the data used in the text was sacred. Yeah. And it's not a joke. That's not an exaggeration. That's the literal, that's what it is. And you're, you know, that's the beginning this, this is very early in the class, this is, this usually

Unknown: 1:47:57

is in class four. So of eight, or 333 of eight is when we start asking, and every week there's a discussion at the beginning of class, hey, anybody willing to turn in their bio this week, like and know, okay, can you give me a reason? Why can we talk about that so the guides and the students themselves try to create a safe enough container that they can feel comfortable giving us whatever that is a sentence, or 30 some pages? And we do ask to try to keep it between three and five pages. But for us as guides, what you're saying, I just hope people on the outside Can you even fathom thinking of some something that happened to you in childhood that maybe you've never told anyone but you keep that buried? Can? Can you imagine? You haven't told anyone? Yeah, and you're on the outside and I'm asking you, you're in prison not having the worst day of your life wants you having the worst day of your life for years potentially. And this person comes in and says, I see you I want to hear from you. And I will receive whatever you want to hand to me and and reflect back to you what I know of the Enneagram What I know is that as a childhood This wasn't as a child this was not your fault. And it isn't about oh, let's go blame someone else. That's not no that's not what it's about. It's looking at so what have I held on to and we're looking at unlocking why I do what I do. And this is the foundation of why we do everything. So that sacred process because I kind of went on one angle for guides. This is a big deal. It's a big part of our guide training as well that are you able to receive what someone hands you because some people in prison that are handing you their bio you're gonna read some dark shit. Amen. And can you receive that Can you hold that with unconditional positive regard? So in our training, we do talk, here's all the different crimes that you may sit in a room with, what is your bias? And don't tell me don't have it, because you do. And until I know what my bias is, and where my stop gaps are, I'm not safe. I'm not going to be trustworthy. And and that that's, that's a beautiful thing to be able to offer to another human being. And maybe if we all would have had that safe person or Auntie or coach or teacher or someone in our family, maybe we wouldn't be where we are, whether that be in prison, or out in society, holding my pain.

Clay Tumey: 1:50:46

How was it? We're at the end? I haven't seen you look at the clock over my shoulder.

Unknown: 1:50:50

No, oh, wow. Yeah, I grew up. Oh, I told you, if you just talk about the Enneagram Prison Project, this could go on and on. Were Can I just say one thing about the bioprocess. You

Clay Tumey: 1:51:04

can say anything and everything. I have so much space on my computer to record as long as you want to talk.

Unknown: 1:51:09

So Dana bringing this up is that we have guides that are virtual guides that are in live and people that are apprenticing and we have supportive calls every week that we meet and say, How did it go? Did this go? Well, this didn't go well. So we're constantly supporting each other? And I was okay, how do you do it. So if I, I'm doing BIOS right now for my class, and when I get that information, often I like to do it out of my house somewhere else, because then I have a timeframe. It's like, Okay, if I go there and do it, Suzanne, you have X amount of time to get through this much paperwork, and then you go back home, or if I am at home, it is a sacred thing. And I may light a candle, I need to center myself and say a prayer and can I find that unconditional space within myself because I don't know what I'm going to read. And I want to be able to receive it, and then answer back to it with my heart, what from my head what I know about the Enneagram and and offer some hope to that person, because we all have a divine spark inside of us and Enneagram our training we we talk about that. And that's not something that I can take away from myself or anyone else can take away from me, but to actually believe that is a big ask in prison as well.

Clay Tumey: 1:52:38

I think that takes some practice to to be able to read all that without judgment and to see the person instead of their crime. And I'll say 100% I'm guilty of knowing what somebody did, and and rubbing shoulders with people in prison, knowing knowing why they're there. And I struggle, I just do, and I don't like it, but it's it's for me, it's reality that I know what this guy did. And I don't I don't I struggled to see him. I see what he did. And it's it's a process that I would expect. For me. I don't I don't know, it's that people ask me a lot. Why aren't you a guide, you know, and there's a million reasons. And that's, that's probably one of them is because I just I as a person, I struggle with that.

Unknown: 1:53:19

But if you I'd love to talk about that, like gift you had the opportunity for this person that you're rubbed up against, and like, I'm not rubbed up against because you don't do that. Yeah, but this person that you're next to and you know their crime and and it is uncomfortable at whatever for you. If you also had the opportunity for them to hand you a bio, and they told you what didn't happen in their home that should have or what did happen there in their home and shouldn't have. And you heard that this little the little person in the big person you're sitting next to the things that they've endured. Maybe that would change

Clay Tumey: 1:54:01

the could. I I it's the reason that when I go and talk to banks about bank security and how to they want to do a q&a with a bank robber, so they pay me to come in and do it in my PowerPoint presentation. The very first slide is I show them this is what a future criminal looks like, by the way. And then I show him a picture of me when I was four years old and little olan Mills picture where I have the blue sweater vest and this new blonde hair and this adorable little child. This is the guy who's going to grow up and rob your bank. So I I don't think I'm not there. I it's just in total honesty and transparency. It's it's a word for me to it's hard to see people. Sometimes it's easy to see their crimes, and it's something worth getting over. for lack of a better phrase. Yes, it's a process.

Unknown: 1:54:50

You reminded me when I was in the UK. I had not been in a UK prison before and I guess I have a little bit of an accent. Especially across the pond, and I was talking about the divine spark. And the men in this class were getting really irritated. And finally they're just like, raise your hand mom. And I and I don't have a divine spark inside of me what you're talking about that's my that's my little bastard inside of me. But he said little bastard inside. Pastor what's bastard Oh, God, I don't know what he's, like, tell me more. And, and, and he went on to just explain all of the horrific things that happened to him in his childhood, which is why he ended up in prison is he was a father of three at the age of 16. And the only thing he knew to do was to go out and sell drugs to help raise his children. And he's like, so I understand the little busted inside of me. And I'm like, oh, finally I got it. He said that he's saying bastard. I'm like, Okay, are you saying a little bastard? And he's like, I am not. How did you say it? I am not a sheep. I'm not saying bad. Oh, gosh, I'm saying bastard. And I'm like, Okay, so then we had this. It was a very intense moment, when he was talking about the little, the him hit the little person inside of himself. And what you're saying, You don't know that backstory. And that little bastard. I said, Okay, if you get nothing else out of this class, by the end of the eight weeks, I hope you can own that you have a divine spark. That's I don't care if you know your type. You don't know your type deal. Can you walk away from here knowing I have that. And he came back on graduation and said, I found it in my children. So I must have it in me. And I was like, bingo. That was just such a beautiful, that was worth everything the whole

Clay Tumey: 1:56:59

down trip. That's good. It's fair. It's gotta be rewarding. Yeah. It is a case of the feel good.

Unknown: 1:57:07

Yes. Sorry. I just wanted to mention that because that really was one of those moments where I was like, that's why we do this work. Amen to you. Take that little piece of yourself and remember and grow that.

Clay Tumey: 1:57:20

So going back to going to San Antonio, and I think 2017 he said, and yeah, just looking for a workbook.

Unknown: 1:57:27

I just wanted a workbook there's got to be somebody.

Clay Tumey: 1:57:31

And so now here we are, you know, four plus years later. And obviously because nobody can see where we are, I'm in your house. We're sitting at your kitchen table. And just just shooting just shooting the shit as they say.

Unknown: 1:57:43

And that's crazy. It's pretty wild. Cuz I I kind of come to Susan and have dinner and then Susan's like, yeah. And Clay will be here. No, man, what's cool is Clay. He's one of our ambassadors, what's an ambassador, men that have on the inside, they do the work, they get out, they continue with us. And I was the third wheel at that dinner

Clay Tumey: 1:58:04

and a few other people. Yeah, there was a bunch of wheels.

Unknown: 1:58:08

And I was like, What is happening here like everyone is. That's that's, that was part of my really curiosity. This is too good to be true. Like, I didn't trust what I was seeing. Although I wanted to, like, your connection to Susan was like, he has such a respect for her. And she's doing the Enneagram and a little prison in Texas. And now, EP is growing. And then there's this person, Laura, and she's in Finland using this. And Laura said, You're coming to Finland. And I'm like, I don't even know where it is. And my passport is expired. But she's like, yep, it's the end of July. We're having a conference in September, you'll be there. And you know, sometimes people say something to you. And I'm like, she's holding more truth on that than me. And let's just see. So I went home that I'm gonna put my passport paperwork and, and we'll just see I'm not spam than the extra 65 bucks to expedite it. Because if this is meant to be it, well, let's send it in. Two weeks later, and I think we had eight weeks to figure it out. Two weeks later, it comes back. I'm like, Oh my god, two weeks. The government doesn't get back in two weeks. Yeah, it was a letter. Ma'am. You didn't put the check in there. Oh, gosh. And I was like, Okay, this is an even bigger test, because I'm still not paying that 60 bucks. I'm sending it back in clay. I got it, like in time. And so I called Susan and like, hey, we've been in contact about you know, getting things going here in Minnesota and I want to come to Finland. I want to see is this really real? And she's like, you're gonna come to Finland and I'm like, Yes. And she's like I welcomed because if you come I'll give you a workbook. And I like I get a trip to work trip and I'm there so I flew to California, flew with them over to Finland and board members were there and Susan son was there and Rick, the executive director, and Laura and we went into the women's prison. And I was amazed how their staff knew the Enneagram they knew the Enneagram for different. It was like this is blowing them up. They had a sauna in the prison because it is Finland and it was beautiful. And unfortunately, shortly after that the women's prison due to it being very, very old. It was closed. But that I was like the that this is more than a workbook. This is my future.

Clay Tumey: 2:00:42

That's another t shirt. an EPP on the back is more than a workbook. Yes.

Unknown: 2:00:49

Yeah. So there, there it is clay

Clay Tumey: 2:00:53

Was it bad it was it I mean it just flies by doesn't it like we could do another hour if you want we're not gonna do another hour. But thank you for Thanks for letting me come and sit at your, at your table here. Anytime I'm gonna give you the last word as I like to do no question no prompt, no anything. I'm just gonna leave the next however many seconds, minutes, hours, you like to just say whatever's on your heart.

Unknown: 2:01:20

On my heart, you're asking a heart type what's on my heart, here we go another hour, buckle up people know. So any ears that have listened to this and any of our other podcasts. If this at all touches your heart or of interest, go to the Enneagram Prison project.org website. And I don't know if it's been mentioned that the programming that we do in custody due to the pandemic now is being offered to the public. So we have an eight week course called nine prisons one key that is our basic in custody programming. And then we have a second course called path to freedom, which is 16 weeks long. And if you groove with both of those and you're like I think I want to do this guide gig, then we have a two month guide training that you would be invited to journey with us on. So if anything about this speaks to have listeners. Come on in. You'll be long the waters warm.

Clay Tumey: 2:02:30

For more information about RPP please visit EnneagramPrisonProject.org. We appreciate your time and attention today. Stay tuned for future episodes, which you can expect on the 12th of every month as we continue to tell the story of Enneagram Prison Project