Clay Tumey: 0:12

Hi, my name is Clay and this is the Enneagram Prison Project podcast. In this episode I sit down where it all began at a certain kitchen table in Los Gatos, California with EPP founder Susan elastic. We're also joined by EPP Executive Director Rick Lessig. Today we celebrate April 12, the official anniversary for EPP 11 years and going We're glad you're here. Thanks for listening. This is the Enneagram Prison Project podcast.

Rick Olesek: 1:14

All right, let's get cracking banana man.

Clay Tumey: 1:17

Here we are in Phoenix, Arizona. I've been sitting on that one for a few days. I'm gonna pull up the Do you have your notes? How do you want to a couple of minutes or

Susan Olesek: 1:32

Oh, I'm just I could futz around with this for a long time. No, I'm good.

Clay Tumey: 1:36

futz around.

Rick Olesek: 1:37

That's a good four letter F word that doesn't have make us be explicit.

Susan Olesek: 1:41

I don't know what that was. I said it. It sounded like a dirty word.

Clay Tumey: 1:45

I don't even know what I mean. Rick and I were looking at each

Susan Olesek: 1:48

other. I don't I'm afraid to know the origin or you're already looking like look on Slack he's got his giggle eyes.

Clay Tumey: 2:01

I made the mistake of watching boomhauer right before this. Alright guys, it's good to see you. Alright, futzing around. Oh, that's me. Oh, there's an actual words. Means waste time.

Susan Olesek: 2:14

Are you afraid to talk now?

Rick Olesek: 2:15

No. I am definitely not afraid to talk. Okay, good.

Clay Tumey: 2:19

Where shall we start?

Susan Olesek: 2:21

Well, very beginning. In the beginning, very good place.

Clay Tumey: 2:26

So this is episode

Rick Olesek: 2:29

2647. Something like that. Yeah.

Clay Tumey: 2:31

That's August 27 2016. It's season two finale. Yeah, that sounds better. Sounds more official.

Rick Olesek: 2:38

But let's get let's get cracking. We gotta get into this thing.

Clay Tumey: 2:41

Right now. We've been cracking.

Rick Olesek: 2:45

Alright, so where are we starting? Let's start with what's the first thing that where did we leave off? Or what are we what are we going to jump into the middle? Or where do you want to go?

Clay Tumey: 2:54

We left off a year ago. So we spoke for the conclusion of the first season of the podcast for the 10 year anniversary. Coming up on 11. And we're coming up on year 11. This is the conclusion of year 11. We're coming up on year 12. And we are four days away from the anniversary today. As we record this Saturday, April 8, is lash potentially potentially Sunday, April 9, Easter in this is gonna go up on Wednesday, April 12, which will be 11 years since the official and we talked about this last year about why is it what makes it the official episode or not f was the official anniversary. And it was just the date that paperwork got submitted. So there's nothing special

Rick Olesek: 3:41

like special that I know if it was on that day.

Susan Olesek: 3:43

Well, I mean, it might just allow the day that the paperwork got submitted, but then now it's the day the paperwork got submitted. It's significant because it actually happened, right? It wasn't idea until it actually became, you know, real. I think what's what's noteworthy Aleta told me this is that EPP will be starting its 20th program in Louisville jail. On our birthday.

Clay Tumey: 4:12

That's happening on Wednesday 20th program,

Susan Olesek: 4:15

don't you say? Wouldn't you say we're doing? Aren't we doing 20 programs 20. I heard I heard as well. I think we're gonna edit this part out

Clay Tumey: 4:24

isn't great ways that they can see the face

Susan Olesek: 4:28

20 I was quoting you. So I've been saying this in a couple of places that we had eight programs going before COVID program 20

Rick Olesek: 4:36

programs going at once in different different places, jails, prisons,

Clay Tumey: 4:40

things like that. So we will simultaneous we have 19 Now we have a lot.

Rick Olesek: 4:45

I don't know I haven't. I haven't been doing the math on it. So I can't persist for sure say that it

Susan Olesek: 4:52

was 20 bucks. Alright, scratch all that. What I think is noteworthy is that we're going to be starting a new program in Louisville. JL I got to learn to say Louisville like they do on the Honor birthday. That's pretty cool. That's pretty damn cool.

Clay Tumey: 5:08

Yeah, what's that program going to consist of?

Susan Olesek: 5:11

It is a, it's a regular EPP program, eight modules in a compressed format. So all 24 hours in a four day period of time. And it's going to be, it's going to be what it's going to be. It's a jail. And there's a lot of social unrest that's been happening in Louisville over the last many years after. Gosh, there's so much Breanna Taylor, George Floyd, all the all the things and they know that they're, the work is, is there for them to do, I don't think they have any other programs going on right now. And they've been super accommodating. For us, they are like, if you can roll out a red carpet and jail, they're doing that we're gonna have a great space with fresh air and all the materials are coming in. And they're just doing so much to make it easy for us to get hit the ground running, and it's gonna be great.

Clay Tumey: 6:02

Well, are we able to say who else is gonna be there?

Susan Olesek: 6:05

Yeah. Niner Maples has been waiting a good long time. So I'm super excited to be working with her and Halida obviously lives right there. So this is Halida second program. I think since our JD, when you were there with her clay Selby, the three of us. And we just met this morning. And we're just three very happy body types going in feeling really easy, good.

Clay Tumey: 6:31

Helya, Type Eight, nine and Type One, of course your Type One as well.

Susan Olesek: 6:35

That's a lot of body types in the room. Do you

Clay Tumey: 6:37

ever when you're figuring who can go in and program together the the guide or the lead Guide or the apprentice or all the different ambassadors even does any? Is there any consideration for for matching certain types or centers of intelligence? Or is it just what's available is like a geographical thing.

Susan Olesek: 6:54

I think it's more two and three than one. If anybody was following all those choices, I think someday we'll be able to say, be so nice if we could have a balance three different centers or different intelligence or something right now. It's, it's mostly it's, I don't know, it's sometimes heavy logistics, which is right now. This is in China. And the latest backyard makes all the sense in the world for them to be there. Asha was also going to be a visitor.

Clay Tumey: 7:21

That's right. He is not far away. All right, yeah.

Susan Olesek: 7:23

And he said he would be willing to come in and sit on a panel. Yeah. And he also said he'd be willing to write some bio responses. So I guess this won't come up before that no pressure. But I hope that that happens.

Clay Tumey: 7:36

Oh, it's pressure. I'm going to clip that exactly. Send it to him. So the distract myself by being silly, because I had a I had a follow up there. With bio responses. Oh, people? How many is this? Did you say whether or not this was men's prison or women's prison?

Susan Olesek: 7:56

It didn't say both. There. Were starting with the men. And we were planning on following up with the women.

Clay Tumey: 8:02

Yeah, how many folks are going to be there,

Susan Olesek: 8:04

our sweet spot is 25. So once we asked for this, what they gave us

Clay Tumey: 8:08

what makes it sweet.

Susan Olesek: 8:11

Because y'all could have seen glazed or to the head and grin. I think it's a good chunk of people so that the content can be you know, can be playing out in enough people in the room. That's one. And I think that's the biggest one, there's not so many people that you don't get that sort of more intimate serve and return with people where you can kind of let things unfold. I mean, the curriculum is designed to really help people to go deep inside of themselves. And if there are too many people, that doesn't happen, or it only happens for a few, at the exclusion of a lot more. And if there are too few, it's almost like too intense, or you don't have the balance of all the other types. We we like to employ the narrative tradition. So putting all the different types on panel, it gives us a good combination. If we don't have enough people, sometimes we import people from from the outside. Important. problem that terror, it's fine.

Clay Tumey: 9:15

I think it's fun. So you use the term that it's become more common in the last couple of months or so we used to say intensive. And now we say compressed. And why are we doing that? And that is not like the biggest question in the world. But I don't think I've ever actually asked that.

Susan Olesek: 9:32

Why does language matter?

Rick Olesek: 9:35

Is the question why are we using the word compressed versus intensive? Or is it why are we why have we made this some changes into how we deliver the program?

Clay Tumey: 9:43

The first of those two and I want the answer to the second one too, but the the question itself is about I don't

Rick Olesek: 9:49

know. Yeah, I think that we came out with the word intensive for and I think it was a little bit too intense as a word and it implied something like Well, what is the other one? Is it not intense? Or is it is too intense. And it gives some it's a gradation on intense intensity, which is not, it is, it doesn't mean that. But by having it in a smaller space, a tighter window, there are some differences to how we deliver the curriculum. And so we came up with compressed, still not 100% sold uncompressed. If there is a better word and compressed, I'd be happy to you asking for input from the listener. I'm just saying that we, you know, we've been we've been kicking it around for a while and compressed seems to be the best we've come up with. So

Clay Tumey: 10:38

I like compressed. I like consolidated fills furniture it? Yeah, it feels closer. Okay. Yeah. I didn't like intensive, mainly because I didn't know if it was intense or intensive. Compressed is easier to remember. Yep. does feel compressed squished is probably not okay. Weird. Well,

Rick Olesek: 10:58

and so just just so everyone knows what the, you know, usually we give we do our programming it once or twice a week. And so in fact, mostly our common most common is once a week, for a three hour window or so, eight weeks for, you know, what, three hours a week, or it is, you know, 10 or 12 hours, two or two and a half hours a week, somehow to get to that sweet spot of around 2425 hours of teaching. But if we move towards something where we can do it in a smaller window, then what it what it allows us to do and has allowed us to do is that we can bring people in fly people in, and they don't have to be local. So all of a sudden, you know, we're where if you had to do an eight week, you know, program in someplace that you weren't local to that that's a real, that's really difficult. It's difficult logistically, but if all of a sudden you're saying, Hey, we can do it over one weekend or two weekends, and you know, every other week, now all of a sudden, you can you can get there how to get somebody there twice.

Clay Tumey: 12:03

So it's doable, for example, for me to go to Southern California for a couple of days, this week, couple of days next week, and that'd be the whole thing instead of flying out there. That's

Rick Olesek: 12:11

right. And so eight weeks in a row and RJ Donovan as you know, that's that's what we do is we use the compressed format. So

Clay Tumey: 12:17

I'll be there the day after you're starting. So we'll you'll be in Louisville. I don't know if I'm saying that right now. Just say like yeah, and I'll be I'll be so I'll be there on the 13th It's a busy

Susan Olesek: 12:40

week. This next week is a busy month is a busy week for EPP because also we have a compressed program it happening at home house in England.

Clay Tumey: 12:49

That's right. And that starts Suzanna starts on also starts on Tuesday.

Rick Olesek: 12:54

Yeah, she went, she leaves leaves tomorrow and Viva Viva is going also leaving tomorrow or the next day to get there. Yeah.

Susan Olesek: 13:02

And Moira and Sue are apprenticing and they're super thrilled about that. And Jeanette will be up there getting their feet wet all over again,

Rick Olesek: 13:09

Kate, Brooke, and Christine and Jill, on the inside.

Clay Tumey: 13:12

Great. A lot of stuff going on.

Susan Olesek: 13:15

We have a whole circle full of people who help with responding to bios, and there's like, Who else do you know that's that you can tap and say, Hey, could you could you write an extra one?

Clay Tumey: 13:25

Yeah, right. How many? Do you know how many there are? How many people there are who respond to the

Susan Olesek: 13:30

I don't know how many there are. And it's usually not a problem, we usually can everybody can take a couple. But this one, that's if it's 25 and caught in a class, and I think it is could be 75 and

Rick Olesek: 13:43

weak. And just just I mean, it takes somebody a good hour and a half, two hours to respond to one. So

Clay Tumey: 13:50

we talked a little bit about the bio responses on we had an episode with about GTA with both the PA guides and also with GTA participant when I sat down at this table, actually. And so we I think the folks have heard a little bit about the bio responses but like from a like a mechanical or technical aspects. How do those go down like the bio? Well, first of all, what is the bio response just for anybody who might be listening for the first time and don't already know? What is what is a bio response? And then also what does it take if you have 72 or something like that? 75 How do you how do you have that turnaround time be so quick?

Susan Olesek: 14:32

Right? Well, one of our significant homework assignments is to invite people to write a biography in the third person and they write with some prompts to help them to reflect on the timeline of the things that happened to them from when they were born until they were 18. So we will do it till 25 And it's significant because it really is a way for people take take an objective look at what has happened to them and think why At what I always consider inside of me when we talk about our curriculum is there's nothing wrong with us. But there's there's a lot of stuff that happened to us. And the English psychologist DW Winnicott said, there are things that happen that should never have happened. And there are things that should have happened that did not. And most people don't really know that, that we can say that, but we don't really know that. And people often don't even understand the, the total the totality of what's happened to them. So writing it as a significant exercise, and and just remembering that one of our students named John who came in the first time he wrote his biography, he, his eyes were swollen, his face was red, he had his psyche had detoxed overnight, and he turned in pages and pages and pages, and his childhood was horrific. Anyway, I'm, I'm maybe going into a lot here, but it's just such a big assignment. And we want to receive it with the sort of weight with which people give it to give it give it up. And so we take our time with the response to appreciate them to help them connect the dots to things that they may not have seen themselves in their type. And we're always trying to help people to understand how your personality type helps you survive, and where the, where we lost contact with our essential quality. So those are all the things we're trying to do in the bio response. And I'll just say, honestly, you can live you can come through the content in the guide training program and be very good delivering the content, not everybody is a great writer, not everybody is as good and thorough and able to write a biography response right off the bat. And so we've taken time to put more training around it give people more feedback, oversight, and also to highlight people who are good at it to put them in a circle so that they can be tapped more often. So there's a couple of things that are happening. Oh, rice is done. I wondered if that was gonna happen? Yeah. So yeah, we have we have a bunch of people in the wings, angels in the wings.

Clay Tumey: 17:12

And you said that it's a third person writing? And and I don't know if I've actually asked this directly, but what is the benefit? Instead of me if I'm writing it and saying, when I was 12 years old, what is the what is? What are we adding or what value is added by saying instead of when I was 12 years old, I would write when Clay was 12 years old.

Susan Olesek: 17:34

I think it just gives people some space and some perspective to look back and have a little bit more objectivity. I actually think that's the same thing that the Enneagram offers us that we can use that as a way to, like, see what a type structure does, but I'm not actually talking about myself. And then that's what I mean by connecting the dots. Like there's a, there's a structure, there's a personality structure, and there's also a system, and then there's me, and that's really was my life. So to helping people to have a little bit of objectivity.

Rick Olesek: 18:07

I'll just add, that this particular assignment comes directly out of the blue book. So out of the wisdom of the Enneagram book. And, and we, I don't want to get too much into logistics, but we have a really, really savvy infrastructure team. And Jason has just crushed how head crushed how to do this Tyson lion, Jason white. Yeah, he has just made it so easy for us to have habits so that people can get quickly just go drop right in and start typing and be able to then for us to be able to print those out and get them back to people. And it's a little bit of a logistical headache, especially if it's in multiple places.

Clay Tumey: 18:49

Yeah. And we talked about that some before. But RJ Donovan last year when we were there, I forget how many it was. I want to say it was close to 70. It was a lot. Yes. Yeah. And those were the turnaround on those were like days. Yeah. And that was I think, yeah. And that was folks who were there in person. There were there were some responses done by them. That and then others were scanned and emailed throughout Earth, and even as far away as Australia. And so by all responses coming in from the other side of the world, which is pretty gnarly.

Susan Olesek: 19:23

One thing that was pretty amazing as I was part of a group of people who are writing by losing track of the country for a second in England,

Clay Tumey: 19:33

or Belgium. This is one of my favorite things that happens when we're on Earth where we literally

Susan Olesek: 19:42

no, no, no, okay, I just remembered Yeah, we were in England. And I remember because Viva and I were sitting in the Airbnb living room and Suzanne was across the way and we're all in our pajamas and we're tired. We're really tired. But no one's gone to bed. And we are sharing pages across. And then you can just see different moments where one of us just like this, our head back and takes a breath because they're intense. People's lives are intense, and they've been through so much, you can't make up the stuff that that you read. And And anyway, it was one of those where we got help from different places. And I've been in rooms where people receive students receive their response back and the person's not in there. Like not in the room, right? They're not in the country. And they look at me and say, like, how can someone know me like that? How can someone know me without even knowing me? And that's the power of the Enneagram is really, really cool. So, yeah, we're doing, we're doing a lot this month, especially. And I think the fact that we can do it and all sort of look up and say, oh, yeah, it's a lot. But it's not like we're shutting everything else down. There's still a lot of other things happening, too. And I think that's sort of like, the momentum of the year.

Rick Olesek: 21:02

Yeah, I just want to just kind of add, I know, you kind of alluded to the fact that, you know that how intense it is, we're going back to that word of intense, but then in the right way, I think how intense these bios are, for the, for the person who's writing them, and also for the person who's receiving them and writing a response. And yeah, it's, I'm sure, it doesn't come as any surprise. But I, you know, one of the things that we do we talk about sometimes is, with the ACE study, and how many aces the folks on the inside have, and we've been doing a study with our, with our students, as a way to unpack what has happened. And we've been doing it now for, I don't know, seven years, six or seven years, we have somewhere north of 1500, to almost 2000, you know, things that are just just so that we could catalog them. And where, where the ACE study talks about how once you get to about three aces, you have all of these negative health outcomes,

Clay Tumey: 22:14

like physical, physical health problems, health problems,

Rick Olesek: 22:17

but also, you know, all of these things that just kind of align or line up against with, you know, suicidal tendencies, and depression and alcoholism. And it is study after study about this, once you get to about three, the average in our classes over that amount of time, it doesn't matter. If it's in another country, it doesn't matter if it's women versus men, doesn't matter. You know, if we take all of that stuff, we're looking at them individually. It's five, it's five plus aces. And that is so hard. Right? So it just, it's just another like, Okay, this is the this is the actual stuff on the ground here is that there's a lot of hurting folks who are have had a really, really difficult childhood.

Clay Tumey: 23:03

Yeah, it's in the, especially when you read the stories in the BIOS, there's a point where you go, yeah, obviously, you're going to, you're going to end up in a trickier place and average Joe down the street who had an okay life. Like it makes it it almost makes sense. Like, of course, you're in prison. Like, which is, it's not a nice way to say it. But it makes sense to me, like, yeah, your life was, like, sucked,

Rick Olesek: 23:29

right? In the end, when they first did the A study in San Diego with Kaiser and the CDC had to go back and look at the exact number, but it was something, you know, the average number of ACEs was 1.1. Something, it was in between one and two. That was where that was at. So it's a pretty big jump to get to five.

Clay Tumey: 23:48

What were they doing? Like, what were they? What were they going for when they first did that study? And because the I know that I don't know all the demographics, but I know that the the groups that they did that with, it makes sense to do this when we're in prison, like to study adverse childhood experience, because I'm in a really bad place. And I need to start figuring some things out. But who were they who were they studying?

Rick Olesek: 24:10

They were studying what was Kaiser, which is a big health organization here in California, and the CDC, and they were looking specifically at how, how do adverse childhood experiences impact health outcomes, so that they could understand the participants inside of Kaiser, which is a large health organization. Gotcha. And then from that, once they started to plot that on a plot that on a on a graph, they were like, oh, there's actually some correlations here. And then that's where all these other correlations into their studies came from.

Clay Tumey: 24:48

Did you have anything that wanted to squeeze in here, okay, if you don't, well, no,

Susan Olesek: 24:52

just ACES is a big deal. There's a lot there. There's a lot there and They were they were trying to demonstrate the correlation between health health outcomes and the adversity that children experience. And I, what I think Rick is pointing to is so important because they were looking at, you know, an a largely middle class employed white.

Rick Olesek: 25:20

Yeah, it was done in San Diego it was, it was in California with people that were employed and part of Kaiser.

Susan Olesek: 25:27

And I remember asking Gabor, what he thought about us using that ace questionnaire on the inside. And he said, Absolutely. And it's allowed us to do the same kind of thing that the biography is after it's, it's helping people to tell themselves the truth about what has happened to them. It's hard to negotiate when you give yourself a point for each one of these things. And the questioner doesn't even cover all of the things. And so people are, we help people to understand that a lot has happened. And there are you could have a 20 year, less life expectancy because of those kinds of things. And somehow the medical correlation, the that I might have more autoimmune diseases or more might be more likely to be suicidal, somehow makes it more understandable that what we're saying it corroborates the whole picture.

Clay Tumey: 26:20

So it started as a health thing, I had it backwards, I thought it was I thought it was they were trying to look at, like, you know, I was always in the at risk at risk categories in school and all that other stuff. I actually thought it was trying to figure out hey, what the hell's wrong with all these kids that don't behave? It was actually a just a, just a doctor's office kind of thing. Learn something every day, if you want to.

Rick Olesek: 26:43

And I will just say to anyone who's listening, and reading about the ACE study, and the stuff that has gone on since then, is fascinating stuff. It has now been taken up by WHO and you have resiliency tests. And I mean, the World Health Organization does this and all kinds of places now. And they've they've modified some of the different questions, you know, in for, for things like, you know, war torn areas and stuff. But it is it's a fascinating topic. But not the one that we were planning on.

Clay Tumey: 27:19

It comes up for a reason. I'm putting I'm opening my phone right now. Because the idea. So this is the 11th anniversary VPP. And we'll talk about the year end review, which was kind of already said a few things about where we were, where we're going and all that stuff. And I put it to our to the podcast, chat Slack channel, like what are some things that happened in the last year, so that that were highlights or whatever else? And if, if anything jumps on you, I want to start or I can start reading some of these and we can just freestyle and see where it goes?

Susan Olesek: 27:51

Well, I think for myself, I'm happy to hear what's on this election curious. It's on the Slack channel. This year, it feels really significant because we we came out of the pandemic. Now. It's an endemic, I guess, right? It's official. And we were super busy. During the pandemic, we most people know. We couldn't program. So we took our in custody classes, we built online offerings, we open them up to the public, we became a school. And we had over 1000 people come through those classes. And then a lot of things started to open back up virtually and in person. And then we were open everywhere. And we were like, oh my goodness, we didn't have the capacity to be doing everything. And we really had to make a conscious choice to turn her energy to go well, what Rick, I think coined for the organization back to basics, like we are Enneagram Prison Project. And now there actually is a sweatshirt that says, Say clay prison is our middle name. And he's, he's on the back of his chair. And they but he does exist, never thought you'd see the day. And prison is our middle name. So we've, we've been focusing our energy on that. And it's not been an easy thing to get our arms around, right? What do we do? What don't we do? When do we do it? What can we manage on the schedule, and people are flying in for compressed schedules. And then there's the regular custody stuff, and we have all the guide training programs. So we have we had to really focus and I think that's been a lot of what the year has felt like, that's what

Clay Tumey: 29:27

it felt like for me. I felt like I've been more involved and I don't know, a lot of the COVID influence virtual programming, whatever, however you want to describe that like it was good and necessary, I think. And I also just really loved going into prison. Yeah, when they let you out at the end of the day. Like just the style. Yeah, exactly. Just don't have to roll doubles three times. Pay money to get out. I probably went a little too far with a monopoly job but I love going inside. I love I love being with the folks on On the inside who are at a point where they can make some big changes or big pivots and new directions. And I remember what that I remember what that experience was like. And I love being a part of it. It's cool.

Susan Olesek: 30:12

Nothing compares to being on the inside in person.

Clay Tumey: 30:14

Nothing at all. It's not even not even close. I would trade everything else for that. And thankfully, we don't have to because we still get to do other cool stuff. You know, like this. We're not in jail today. We're recording a podcast which I think is cool. Here in Phoenix, Arizona. Are you gonna We're not in Phoenix, Arizona. No, we so we were, I'm just making a joke, but I will explain the joke. The we were in Phoenix a few weeks ago, and we were gonna record we were there for cow What a cool thing that just got hit by how neat that was to see. A fellow ambassador and brothers as far as I'm concerned. pixoto getting married. And, and that was like a little mini EPP event really, there was what 10 or 11 of us there. And another Ambassador Alex was, was hit that's who married Vic and Michelle. And it was, that was really cool. It was really, it was really actually special to say to me, where I sit and just knowing where a lot of this started for, you know, everybody was there in relationship with each other started because of like, some really unpleasant things in our lives. Or at least that's how I saw it. And so to be there, celebrating and a good, you know, good thing is happening. And that's really cool. And so we were while while we were in Phoenix was like, hey, this will be convenient. We'll just record the episode while we're there. And then it didn't work out. But to me, it's funny to keep wearing out a joke, even though it might not be funny. Let me stop saying that I'll stop saying no, I

Susan Olesek: 31:51

just I was just looking for the context getting like me for audience to have the context. And it was such a joy filled celebration. It was it was momentous. It was

Clay Tumey: 32:04

I've never seen anything like that. People that I knew. I didn't do time with them. They did time with each other. But I was in Texas, they're in California, but people who who met on the inside, and then the dumps. And then we're a part of such a big event together.

Susan Olesek: 32:22

There was so much love there.

Clay Tumey: 32:26

It's pretty pretty damn cool. So anyways, that's the context behind the Phoenix joke. I'll probably let it rest. Now Now that I've explained it, I like throwing it out there and just people wondering and then maybe say it sometime later, but I'll let it drop. The point of this episode, though, is to review the year and say what else kind of happened? You mentioned the back to the basic stuff. And, and I think I'll share a few of what was shared in the Slack channel. And these are from individuals, I won't say their name because I didn't have the forethought to foresight or forethought to ask them if it was okay, so I won't name them. But I'll say what they wrote. One is someone who says we'll leave our firstborn is that totally says who she is. Every week of GTP. And the hardest I've worked to make time and acknowledge distractions in my life. And finally, finally, being told that I get to go to jail as one person wrote, This year was really meaningful to me. And a lot of ways with EVPs. And then Troy, I don't think he'll mind me saying his name. Troy says that the impact for me is learning more about myself and feeling inspired to do more with EPP which he has totally done. We've seen a lot of toy around, I'd love to

Susan Olesek: 33:37

double click on that before, because I think that's the other. The other big intention that we've had over the last couple of years, and it's really come into fruition around GTP is inviting ambassadors to be in every space that EPP is whether it means going back in to teach these compressed schedules and leadership positions on faculty in guide training and

Rick Olesek: 34:03

on the directors of boards.

Susan Olesek: 34:07

Yeah, Dustin, joined the Canadian board. Alex has been on the board. And we just have it's such a signature to be able to bring people who did time and found freedom on the inside to come out and be part of delivering these programs and giving guides and training feedback and the practice patch about how close or off the mark they are. We just know that having ambassadors in all the spaces is what makes us bring the heart of what we do everywhere. So I think we're getting we're getting better at that we have a little more resources to be able to do that. And that's happening.

Rick Olesek: 34:47

Yeah, and one of the things that we really kind of if, if back to basics was the was the title. The subtitle was focusing on the in custody student. And what that means for me is it it means the in custody student before and in custody student after. So, you know, and the ambassadors are a, you know, the is the manifestation of that on the outside the end

Clay Tumey: 35:17

user. Yes. It's a term I learned. Sorry says I says I've come to an understanding that being an ambassador means stepping out and face to help not only myself, but every person in this community. I thrive on being here and joining the events that I can truly wanted, I feel truly wanted and needed. That's what I call someone else. Someone else says, I've been helping with that data entry, better data. As you take a drink, I'll just go from the core surveys recently, and a few things stood out for me that speak, I'm reading these cold by the way, I don't know what any of these these are saying. stood out for me that speak to the overall impact that EPP has the gratitude for EPP the guides, and their capacity to support the students the change in them as they learn about personality and trauma and how they start to heal becoming more able to forgive themselves and others to see their value to learn to love themselves. A lot.

Rick Olesek: 36:28

Let me I'm just gonna say that. One of the things that that brings up for me, as I hear some of these things is that they're in some of the just kind of riffing off of what you just said, Susan, is that we had a very robust GDP this last year. And it's it took, we put brought a lot of energy into it. We put it out a lot of folks, whether it was ambassadors or pod guides, or, or other faculty members to it, and it it really brought forth, just a number of people who are now currently programming, right in prisons and jails, and more on the way as they say, Okay, so

Clay Tumey: 37:12

I'm going to, I did not realize how much people wrote in this. Because I wanted to be like, I just wanted to read these cold, but there's a lot shared here. So if anybody is on our Slack channel, the podcast chat Slack channel, I would just say go and read because I'm not going to be able to read all these at all. But a good starting point to begin the year in review is what was shared by the magical Jan Checa. She said, having three compressed programs that are JD in San Diego in May of 2022. For many of us the first time back inside after COVID, and a mini EPP reunion. So this is where we were in San Diego, there were three cohorts going on simultaneously inside the prison. That's the one where they had 70 some odd bio responses that were answered throughout the world. And that was the beginning of year 11 For EPP.

Rick Olesek: 38:05

So what comes up for you thinking about that? I was not there. This is definitely all offseason. So you can answer to that. Well, yeah,

Susan Olesek: 38:14

we were there. Clay and I were there. Nothing but good good juju, and memories from being in there being supported by by Dr. Greenwald and also passing the torch to Dr. Barro and all the psychologists, doctorate casick all the people who are there, not just supporting and making sure the paperwork could go in and out but literally taking the class alongside the students writing their own biographies and then coming out after that, and then taking our programs online again, and really embracing the Enneagram to have the mental health team understand the value of the Enneagram in really reaching their clients has been just so so powerful. And I think there's so much that wants to happen there. So we have a grant to support it in part I think that's that's growing our capacity to do more there will grow and then of course Laura moving down cells so she could be a lot more in person herself. You know, I just feel like we're just getting started.

Clay Tumey: 39:18

And I don't know, I don't know if it's okay to say this. But she like they moved down there. It wasn't just because they were like, Hey, let's go be an air person like that was because No, no. Yeah. So just I mean, I'll say coincidence, because that's the word. But it was it was it was literally just one of those things where oh, this apparently unconnected thing is actually totally going to make stuff better for for what we want to do with EPP.

Susan Olesek: 39:45

Yeah. When I think about RJD it just has all elements had a lot of elements before Laura moved. It had a great relationship with people inside of the facility and we have the And we've miraculously have some funding to go and do it. But then when Laura moved down there, then she was even more able to create some of the outside community support, and be one of the ready guides to go into the institution. So all of that just it makes all the sense in the world to do more and more in that space.

Clay Tumey: 40:19

That's one of those facilities where you mentioned some, and I'll just say my view on it, the mental health staff is so down, like they are so down to do whatever is best for the residents there for the clients there. I don't use any of the traditional prison language there, which is really cool. And we've, we've addressed that before, but I'm still saying it here that it's just really cool. And it was it was mind boggling to see last last May. Like you said, each class had a representative from the mental health staff taking the class. And it wasn't just a matter of sitting there and being available for questions or whatever, like they did the work.

Susan Olesek: 41:01

And it's not just happening in our JD it also happens just this past February and lose when Dana, Dustin were out there and the ward and Ariane and Ariane sorry, Ariane? And, I mean, it's just thinking of so many so many people, right? Where the people who are running the institution are very much committing themselves to being part of the work, which is one of our huge values. And Selene who's the warden over there was in in our online program, and then just rolling up her sleeves. Same thing with Virginie. And I know that we, we haven't quite done it. But we are, I think, on the cusp of being able to bring high level administrators and mental health professionals from different institutions across the United States, but also inter inter continentally. So weird, I never really say globally, to share best practices and share what's possible. And that to me is that's that hasn't always been possible. We haven't been that close before.

Clay Tumey: 42:08

What are those conversations sound like? Like? What are the things that people are asking or that you're telling them or anything?

Susan Olesek: 42:15

Well, I think it'd be interesting to plant the seeds for future podcasts. Even John Felipe is working in Marsh Marsh prison. I was trying to say, Mr. Nassif, that is not that in Marsh prison. And he's taken up a warden role. And he's in close contact with people who used to sit on the border border paroles, and we used to sit on the Board of Parole. And he's working a lot with dynamic security, and helping people to understand that the when we use the Enneagram, and we are emotionally and psychologically safe inside of ourselves, then we actually contribute to the overall safety of the institution. So he's been on to that for a decade, but we were just on a phone call with the Department of Corrections in Washington, and they are very familiar with dynamic security. And so I can imagine they would have quite an interesting conversation when John Felipe has been training correctional officers for the last decade. And we had someone from who's a commissioner who sits on the California Board of Parole in our recent graduation in San Quentin, and I think so I mean, that's the kind of level that I'm talking about. And once we start having more time, and those folks get more space inside themselves in wartime with the curriculum, then I don't even know what's

Clay Tumey: 43:39

possible. Anything else from that? That we could RGD

Rick Olesek: 43:44

I didn't, I was just thinking to myself about how nice kickoff that was, for us really starting to go back in prison again, we had, at that point, we had been doing some virtual programming in different places around the, you know, certainly around the US. And we've done some things in person in some spaces. But that was a nice way for us to really kind of get back into the swing of things, but specifically in RGD, and really kind of push that particular institution forward for, you know, being able to do more programs and I know, Clay you're, you know, heading down to RJD like we talked about next week and or later this week, and that those kinds of things are now just in a nice, a nice rhythm.

Clay Tumey: 44:35

Yeah, the day that this uploads, I'll be flying to San Diego that night. And I also was there in January. I've like I've I come back in May, going back in June, because there's gonna be a movie there a few times. I love it. And there was this. There has been this pretty clear push to get ambassadors and as many spaces as possible. I don't know if there's an official term for it or whatever, but that's, that's how I've, I've experienced it. And it's really showing up and in places like being able to go to our JD and, and have to be a part of class.

Rick Olesek: 45:13

Yeah. I mean, I know that there's a lot of I mean, whether it was Alex or Sue, or Renee, you're right other or Dustin, I mean, there's a lot of folks that are in a lot of spaces now. And, and even some of the other ambassadors are, you know, are coming into it in, in lesser ways, but still, you know, the invitation is there for them to be more present to it. Because there's, it's a definitely a, an A, a push from all of us, we know that it's important. It brings something that we the lived experience of the ambassador's, the wisdom of the ambassadors, is, like Susan was saying, needs to be in every space.

Susan Olesek: 45:54

Oh, my God, it's just a total game changer. Alex comes into San Quentin every single week with us with Cynthia and Jason is coming and knee. And when he went very first time He came in even open his mouth, people were like just sitting up and turning their heads and wanting to sit next to them. And Alex leads to centering people are they're there for whatever he has to say. And I feel so extra supported. Because Alex is connected enough to himself now where he'll just, you know, using raises, he's just part of CO guiding Listen, DNI bringing his exclamation marks to all the things that we're saying with the very real example that I can't come up with and myself in the same way. It's a game changer.

Clay Tumey: 46:43

And Dustin shared a couple months ago on the on the on the podcast, where when they were in Belgium, somebody raised their hand and gave a pretty direct question to him, where he, you know, I'm paraphrasing, but it was, you know, everybody comes in and says this, and does that none of that, but you're the only one who's done it. And you're the only one who's this and you're the only one who's that, and just directly asked him like is does this shit where he is a shit? But does this work? Or is this worth it? Or does it work or something like that? And Dustin, in that moment, you know, it's just, that's how it is. He's the only person in that room who can speak to because he's the only one, we can all share our stories. And it just so happens in that moment is was the story that they were calling upon, right? I love it. It's pretty cool.

Susan Olesek: 47:32

What I love about it is that, you know, we teach this curriculum, we want people to understand what's driving us to do the things that we do and how we get in trouble with our personalities, how to hold ourselves and love ourselves. And then people get out, and we want them to stay connected. And if people do if people do stay connected to EPP, they continue to learn and they contribute to impact the organization. It's so directly reciprocal, and everyone feels like they're winning. Right? So it wasn't I didn't know that it would work so effectively like that. But it does.

Clay Tumey: 48:12

So skipping ahead, what was it? 10 days after IgD? Maybe not even that long. We all hopped on a plane, different planes went to Sweden, for the International Enneagram Association Conference in Sweden in what was it may 2022. Also, or was it June? It was me. And what comes up for you thinking about that memory.

Susan Olesek: 48:37

My happiest memories of that? Are Rene and Alex getting passports. Yeah, and getting out of the country and just flying free and how it was a delight for me although we had quite the it's quite a trip to go to England and the layovers and it's, we slept a wreck. The same coffee shop we slept in like couple weeks later, you and me Alex and I with our face and a cup of coffee just it's a long trip. And we were so happy to be there Renee headed off on his own just so for fearless and, and then to be able to, to be in that conference together and be able to share what we're up to. And I think there are a lot of people who had never heard us live like that before.

Clay Tumey: 49:22

I thought I flew actually took three different flights, I think right? I flew because I visited a friend right before that. And another country. That's pretty close to there. And then Renee went by himself.

Unknown: 49:33

First Yeah,

Clay Tumey: 49:35

he was there first he was there. And then thank you and Alex got there

Rick Olesek: 49:38

and Jason went together with Jason petition and

Clay Tumey: 49:42

that was just it was he just went by himself. And that was their most of their first time traveling internationally. And Alex and I have talked before on the podcast to about traveling and he's, I'm going to ask you what it's like to travel with Alex because From what he shared, he doesn't seem like he's a big fan of airports and airplanes and all that stuff.

Susan Olesek: 50:07

I don't think Alex is a big fan of those things now. But I would go anywhere with Alex for any length of time. And I, I just found him to be a great companion. I mean, we got the extra legroom because Rick book the right seats, and that made a big, big, huge difference. And I don't have those memories, I just feel like we were, we were just so tickled to be off and doing that. And we are so happy to go.

Clay Tumey: 50:37

When we were at the conference, we had a, our presentation was actually really similar to the first one that we ever did. That's, that's how I experienced at least where you you gave a bit of a presentation and then did a panel with the three of us, Alex, Rene and me. And it was it was a maybe a little small room. But there's more people, it felt like there's standing room folks in the back. And I can I can, I can put in some clips, you know, in editing just to share with people some of what was shared there. But what what do you remember anything was anything stick out as far as how the audience was impacted? Or how you felt sharing all this in another country? And any questions? So

Susan Olesek: 51:24

what just came up for me as you as you asked me that clay is, you know, I used to always think that the next group that I taught the Enneagram to was going to be the task group like the one that didn't get it. And every time I would come back and be so relieved that they were just people and we had that running joke, like did you did you meet some more people I like the same. And I would say that's, that's what it that's what struck me that there were people literally less wiping their eyes. And even when we finished, people didn't immediately leave, there are lots of extra questions. And people just wanted to hang out and be in that space. Because I think what the three of you especially do as you share so much from the heart as you and I know, I'm part of that we just create a field of love for people to step in. And that's what I remember.

Clay Tumey: 52:15

If so, at the at the conclusion, and you mentioned people not really leaving, but it was the same as that first year in Denver where I had to, okay, there's another thing coming up, we got to get out of here because they need the room kind of thing, which is a trip to me. Anything else from the list that you want to get into? I'm looking at I'm trying to read your notes, and I can't,

Susan Olesek: 52:37

but you can. Okay. I I feel like that was a good start to me. And it propelled us right into going into Europe and leave we're going to be gone for a bit. So what I remember that personally is that I it was like many months of travel internationally for me and not like, constantly. I did have trips back home. But I learned to be more mindful of my schedule and to be really careful about how how long to go, because it's quite, it's quite a thing, the time zones and all that.

Clay Tumey: 53:14

What was after i Sweden.

Susan Olesek: 53:18

Sterling President completed its second course.

Rick Olesek: 53:22

Colorado. Yeah, that's right. It's pretty. I think that one of the things that's interesting there is just that that particular prison was able to start during the pandemic, because it was the they were they were set up with enough technology to be able to do it. Virtually. So Suzanne, and some of the folks from Colorado, really and Margo, Margo, you were able to go and without going into the prison were able to teach. And we did it two different times. And it's it was it was a second one. Yeah,

Clay Tumey: 54:03

there was a lot of assistance from the staff there as well with the cameras and the TVs and the mics and to do a zoom call with people who were lucky.

Rick Olesek: 54:13

I will say that. I mean, San Mateo was another place where we did a lot of virtual programming, well, pandemic was happening. And the amount of energy and effort to do that was especially by the by the staff was immense. And, and virtual programming is not the same. You know, it doesn't have to you don't you just can't have the same connection. As we all kind of know, now that we've been through so many things, doing things virtually, but you can have impact. I'm not saying you can't have impact, just not as much. But you know, when given the choice between zero or virtual, we would always choose virtual because we will have the connection of something, yeah, it'd be able to, to reach out and reach into the spaces.

Susan Olesek: 55:06

I think also in Sterling, we, we have this beautiful partnership with a milestone mentorship program, and they, they were looking for something that was exactly like EPP. And I know you experienced that to clay and just working with the guys as an ambassador that they they said this completed what they were looking for it it was it was a great, great match. And we are in, in conversation with other people from within the the department, Colorado, Colorado Department of Corrections, about how we can weave that into other programs that they have. And I can't say much yet because it's not so official, but they that we haven't been able to program in person since then, because they just don't have the staff COVID has been really hard on that facility. And we are eager to get back we are you know, doing stuff in the wings and getting ready to get back there. But yeah, just that was one of the real silver linings of the pandemic, I was

Clay Tumey: 56:04

at their graduation to the the end that a prisoner has a trip because it's in the middle of nowhere. It's like this little tiny town and they are severely understaffed and I think it's getting worse even since I was there. But that that's that that will be a good place to get back into when things work out that's a good is a good facility to program at to be at and there are like it's rare, like you don't I mean still prison but like when you're on the inside there. You can't even see razor wire, like you don't see the grass in the in the in the inner part of there is so like pretty ingrained that they also have a puppy program there. So that plays a big role in and how folks are I think and that's a good, that's a good place to be happy to get back in there too.

Susan Olesek: 56:50

Yeah, Susanne Gawreluk is keeping good track of things there. And we're ready. When they're ready. We're here.

Clay Tumey: 56:57

So it was next.

Rick Olesek: 56:59

right about the same time we were I mean, sometime during that summer, we you and I and Gavin went to lose prison. That was really, really special. And we were able to, you know, in we were able to travel and go and in this loose and and see it. A lot of programming has happened in there. Just to interrupt real quick.

Clay Tumey: 57:20

Who is Gavin? Gavin?

Rick Olesek: 57:22

Who is who is Kevin?

Clay Tumey: 57:24

I know who Gavin. I know, obviously, but Gavin

Rick Olesek: 57:27

Gavin is our third son. So he is now 18 years old at the time he was 17. So he had never been in prison before. Since then, he's actually been in to say one but he had never been into prison because you can't get into prison. At least in the United States. Unless you're 18 or above 18 or older. What was your what were your thoughts about lose

Susan Olesek: 57:48

so many special things. It was it was one of them being Gavin came with us and Gavin has been studying French he he knows a lot of French and I was really pleased to hear him use it during his checkup.

Unknown: 58:02

I can just imagine I was like a real shake in

Susan Olesek: 58:05

your shoes moment. And he just I mean I'm so biased about that point. But he just opened up his heart and he said quite a quite a bit and had a lot of conversation with people at the break as well.

Clay Tumey: 58:20

Do you know any French I don't think Texas and English and you said yes or no right

Susan Olesek: 58:30

there said a little okay. It's almost as much as I know I've learned how to say I count and say I'm Type One above and below the line and sometimes I'm not even sure if I said that right? Yeah, yeah, no, I every time I'm there I wish that I could just have that fluency and I have fantasies about being able to learn another language I know I know some Japanese and Spanish but no French

Clay Tumey: 58:54

for someone who studied French French here to go around practice had to be I just I envy that sounds like a really well, maybe not me but that sounds really cool.

Susan Olesek: 59:03

And a big shout out to Cecile who facilitated that day and John Murray was there and just so you could feel the relationship that they built with the with the people running the running the place and they had four students who had taken the class and had been had gotten out and had come back. So they were there and that was very special. The prison itself is just so much more humane and it is still a prison. So we saw that we got to take a tour. And when we were in sort of like the what do you call that? Were there they were working on like the where they were building things they were they had a whole they had a whole workroom,

Rick Olesek: 59:50

okay, where they were companies were shuttling in work that they were doing and then and then they were being a factory type of thing like a factory type thing. Yeah, they

Susan Olesek: 1:00:00

were doing some manufacturing things there was a guy. What I really want to get to is a guy working on a sewing machine and he was way in the quarter of this like kind of warehouse area. And Rick nudged me he's like, look, I looked over it guys worried and EPP shirt. They don't have uniforms like requirements like we do. And I don't even know how that that shirt got in there like that. It was so cool. We were like, Hey,

Clay Tumey: 1:00:27

I'm busy. He was all smiles. Which, which? Which shirt? Was it? Like how old was the shirt? It

Susan Olesek: 1:00:32

was a long sleeve black shirt with the Enneagram Prison Project. Probably

Clay Tumey: 1:00:36

a good six or seven years old. It

Rick Olesek: 1:00:37

was it was a it was one of the shocking letters or the older ones. Yeah.

Susan Olesek: 1:00:40

Not the shiny, shiny the next.

Rick Olesek: 1:00:46

version two,

Clay Tumey: 1:00:47

I think of the shiny. Okay. I don't think I have that. I have the shiny I have the flat. And then I had was it was all black, though. I know which one you're talking about. Okay, that's good.

Susan Olesek: 1:01:02

They were just so they were so like it is everywhere. And we had a beautiful check in lots of sharing some tears. And then we got to celebrate. And they had, you know, cookies and cakes. And we just visited for a while and we took lots of pictures. And you could just feel people didn't want to go. They didn't we didn't really want to end and Eve and we lingered for a while. And I think I don't even I don't know how many hours, it just felt very spacious. And I have to say I appreciate so much people. Like Viva likes to see, like so many folks are willing to just stand there and allow me to say what I wanted and to just be trans, not just to translate so that I could feel on this, like I was having my own conversation. And it's such a it's such a gift, right? Because translation just takes twice as long. And as soon as there's another person, there's one if someone puts their other voice in there that now and one person is not hearing the full translation anyway, there were lots of spaces where especially I felt a connection with somebody and I wanted to be able to say things and she just just translate so much more than the words you know, it's the spirit of things that really comes through and it's always it's always, so just come away from those kinds of visits really impacted that. You don't always have to know all the words that were exchanged to really know that something profound has happened.

Clay Tumey: 1:02:38

You mentioned Gavin hadn't been to prison yet at that point. Now he has.

Rick Olesek: 1:02:43

He had he had been there. Now he even went to lose. But he also came to the graduation in January and sanquin

Clay Tumey: 1:02:50

and off so that was the last all three of your children. Now all three of our boys have been in Yeah. What do they think? Like? What was the conversation like when you come?

Rick Olesek: 1:02:58

You'll have to have that conversation with each of them to know what Okay, here

Clay Tumey: 1:03:03

are three kiddos who are not here right now.

Susan Olesek: 1:03:06

A little Gavin spot. He'll be around this weekend. He might be up for that. I would love for you to ask him and let him speak for himself. I would cool. Well do. We also got to stop over in in Paris while we were in Europe. And we had a beautiful sort of potluck picnic at EPP community member's house and we got to meet some of the incoming GTB participants and the new board members for the asbl in in France and asbl That's the nonprofit

Rick Olesek: 1:03:43

so it's the acronym for nonprofits in the for the French acronym cool. I don't know the actual words for it. I should know that. But how dare you? How dare I not know the French? This is on me that's on me. I'll take that

Susan Olesek: 1:03:59

a lot of new blood coming in for from GTP eight. And I could just feel how how much momentum and energy people had right after that. So that was neat to land in that.

Rick Olesek: 1:04:09

And then we also and then and then we and it was it was so lovely. We had to spend some time with Eva and her family that was really really special. And then we got to go to the UK and have like a an outdoor gathering with some of the folks from the UK that we hadn't seen in a in a hot minute.

Susan Olesek: 1:04:27

Was nice picnic outside and some ice cream we saw too and Christine and Dr. Greenwald happen to be there to just popped over in England.

Clay Tumey: 1:04:37

Really, really? Yeah. And that wasn't planned or anything. It was just kind of

Susan Olesek: 1:04:42

it really wasn't that we did end up at a wild Italian dinner with Dr. Greenwald's entire family and they were a hoot.

Clay Tumey: 1:04:51

I'm trying to if I asked about that. I'll probably say well, we'll have to get Dr. Greenwald over here. I want to ask so one of the comments in The podcast, chat Slack channel was from Sue Braithwaite one of you know, the question posed there in the channel was, you know, what are some highlights from the year that stuck out to you, or meaningful moments, something like that. And hearing you talk about everything over there reminded me that she had a comment here she said for me, a year of continuing to be a beginner whilst I'm simultaneously finding my feet and my own voice, moving from apprenticing in some programs to being a co guide while continuing to apprentice in other programs, and she listed a few of the things there.

Susan Olesek: 1:05:38

I like to just say something about su because she's one of those delightful people who comes to EPP with such a beginner's mind, and such an awe and a willingness to be informed and to try out new things. All of that is really true about her. And she is a sage beautiful guide and another own by in her own right before she ever hit EPP and the coaching spaces that she's come from in her work with just the work. And we've been working quite extensively together on the human potential lists and pioneering a lot together. And she just I think having having somebody of that caliber who can come in and then take up this curriculum is really, to me exhilarating because they're like Oh, the places you will go is what I feel about Su and and yet it also is so refreshing when someone can just come in and not know everything not and I am excited. So excited for this week at home house for for Sue and Moira and everyone else else in the in the UK family.

Clay Tumey: 1:06:47

She also said knowing that apprenticing is an invitation to shine and succeed and belong not a way of finding out that I'm failing or no falling short, are not welcome. Nice. And then she also mentioned being part of a global effort. And each local facility can Oh, this is where she talks about responding to BIOS being part of a global effort and he's local facility through contributing as a bio responder. So I guess she's a bio responder responder as well.

Susan Olesek: 1:07:18

It's really busy this week.

Clay Tumey: 1:07:22

We get an actual number of how many bow responders are do we know that number?

Rick Olesek: 1:07:26

Or is that just a number exists? I do not know it. It's

Clay Tumey: 1:07:29

it's more than zero.

Rick Olesek: 1:07:31

It's definitely it's somewhere. Somewhere between 10 and 20.

Clay Tumey: 1:07:36

That's my that's my thought really tell it's like more than that.

Rick Olesek: 1:07:40

Maybe it's between 20 and I have nothing to do with this between 10 and 30 I think I'm pretty close. Okay.

Clay Tumey: 1:07:49

Yeah, that's about right. Do you know more about that than I do. I don't follow I mean

Rick Olesek: 1:07:54

only logistically only because I'm the one that ends up having to sit try to work through some of logistics but Jason has taken so many of those things and an automated them again, just a big shout out for that. Jason's a badass I know. I know.

Clay Tumey: 1:08:11

By the way, we're I just want to wear like an hour and Y'all good. We get we need a break or how's everything feel right now? I got all night. So it'll be it will be your limit that's tested, not my I think

Rick Olesek: 1:08:22

we can go a little bit longer, but then we can. And then we can we can cut for no till tomorrow. It sounds like I'm sure there'll be other things that will percolate as we kind of reflect on what we talked about today.

Clay Tumey: 1:08:32

share with you what Jody shared. And the same channel that I referenced earlier. It's a tongue twister to say podcast chats like channel.

Susan Olesek: 1:08:41

Sounds like when I'm going to try.

Clay Tumey: 1:08:43

She says seeing ambassadors get more involved in our programming. And in the day to day at EPP has been the cherry on top of all we do. This has been the sparkle in my year. School. I agree. By the way, God has been the sparkle in mine as well. So happy i This is her words again, so happy. I've been able to see and personally experienced their impact. What a nice comment. That's cool.

Susan Olesek: 1:09:12

Well, I think on that. We said it earlier that one of the things that happened in I don't know exactly what month of this year, but Dustin joined the Canadian board. And in July, the Canadians received charity status from the Canadian government. So Canada got on the map this year and Dustin got on the board and I'm not so sure which one is even more significant because it feels like he infuses just all the stuff we're talking about. And it's a it's a lot to be, you know, in charge of governance and have to ask hard questions and to be able to not know everything and be willing to be in that space. And he's remarkable, you know.

Rick Olesek: 1:09:55

Also a interesting note is that of course you know this clay Is that very difficult to get into Canada as an as a as an ex felon?

Clay Tumey: 1:10:09

Current felon? I still is on my record, I'm still a felon. Yes. Yeah, it's a. The process is started though, to where we actually we just he and I just chatted about this the other day about starting the application. So Canada's a little bit different than some places like Australia, for example. And I've joked, I've joked already about themselves, I'll let him make it this time, as we say, poker anymore undefendable jokes at him. But Canada, you can actually go through a process to be allowed in. Not an option yet for Australia. But it's a different conversation. But the it takes a long time. I don't know how much time, I'm guessing it's like four to six months, something like that. And probably some legal help, and some money and all that good stuff. But the process has officially begun to see if to see if they'll CFL let one of us in and be a part of legally. Legally, yeah, there's not a chance in hell, I'm going to Canada unless I have an invitation. It's not happening. And yeah, it's not it's in there. I think Dustin, I'm just going on memory. So I might be remembering it wrong. I think he, I think he has. So there are some hard restrictions, like you have to be out this amount of time, or you have to have this, whatever. And I think those have ruled out some ambassadors just on the minimum requirements. I'm in position to at least ask. And so we'll see how it goes. I love Canada, I make a lot of jokes. But I do wish I could go there. And I really hope that I mean, I'm serious. I just I want to go I want to go there I want to I want to be I mean not only for this work, but I just think it would be neat to go there. It's weird not being able to go to a place that is so nice. Well,

Susan Olesek: 1:11:56

not just the place but the the facility because we did really in earnest launch our first facility in Pine Grove and a women's facility in Saskatchewan. And that has, to me, I think the Canadians have been very patient and very diligent and trying to do all of the just grunt work to make all of the paperwork real and to be able to listen to Laura Hooper, big shout out for flying all over Hell's half acre to get up there and stay there and be able to get in there. And to Leanne and Amanda now, having apprentice there. It's real. And they are to really sage guides who have already had a heart for questions even before EPP and it just feels to me like so much is going to flow from from this point on.

Clay Tumey: 1:12:48

I'm glad Dustin's on the board. I think that happened around December. Ish.

Susan Olesek: 1:12:52

It feels right. Yeah, it feels right.

Clay Tumey: 1:12:54

I know that for the first time we had any kind of conversation about it was like October. And then a couple months later, there was a yes. So I think that's, I think that's

Rick Olesek: 1:13:05

the Pinegrove thing is a big deal. And not only is it a big deal, because we're, we're programming in another institution, one that Leann already knew quite well, we also identified someone who was just an unbelievable angel for us to be able to do things I mean, this even just this last visit, that we're Laura was there, and it's not my story to tell, but I'll just give the, the, the overview. And you can always double click with her at some point, you know, or with Amanda or with Leanne, but, you know, they started the Laura spends, you know, in an ornament an inordinate amount of time to get up there. And then they get into the class and there she's 45 minutes in, and they're like up COVID locked down. Gotta go. And they locked the whole thing down. And that was the first 45 minutes of a two day program. And so,

Susan Olesek: 1:14:01

it takes two days to get up there practically. Right. Yeah.

Rick Olesek: 1:14:04

And, and so and then, on the inside, there was there was a few people on, you know, in Pine Grove when in the administration that went to bat for like, hey, we need to make this happen. And the next thing we knew they were they were back inside again, Laura couldn't get a flight out that next day and so it just happened that that she was able to continue with Amanda and Leanne and they just did three

Susan Olesek: 1:14:33

modules in one fell swoop which is like a marathon right they

Rick Olesek: 1:14:37

did they did they did a morning afternoon and evening. That's like nine hours right? Yeah, I was.

Susan Olesek: 1:14:43

And they called and they were like giddy giddy. They were so like, touch happy and and triumphant and not tired, just real exhilaration and the students on the inside too. So they really had a lot of stamina and a lot of You know, camaraderie in the in the effort?

Clay Tumey: 1:15:04

Yeah. Do you hear from participants after a program has completed? Like do you have? Do you have anything like, what you just said made me think that like, just imagine them saying, Hey, Susan, we like the little bit of it. But I know that didn't happen, because that's not how it works.

Susan Olesek: 1:15:20

No, this is that's Laura relaying that to me about the students and Liam to Amanda. We have a survey that we do at the end. And then we go back in, we see people again, like that, but we just there's no like, can pick up the phone. We don't write to students generally in between,

Clay Tumey: 1:15:36

is there anything from the facility? About like, do they, I don't even know what the word would be greatest, the only thing that comes to mind? Do they? Do they? Did they assess whether or not like, it went well, or, or anything like what what does that like from you

Susan Olesek: 1:15:52

doesn't assess us, but they do hear from our students,

Rick Olesek: 1:15:55

right. And we also give a

Clay Tumey: 1:15:56

we have, please bring them back.

Rick Olesek: 1:15:59

We have a few different surveys that we give to the students. At the very, very beginning, we give them a pre Outcome Survey. And then when they when they are finished with the program, we give them a post Outcome Survey. And we also give them what's really a satisfaction survey. But it has a lot of questions that are pretty open ended to ask, you know, what did you feel what came up for you? And what would you like us to know? Those are really important for us. And Anna did a great job, Anna Jones did a great job kind of taking the the Pinegrove details, and then converting it into something where we could quickly look at it and say, Oh, this is this was the impact. And just this one little, you know, one little sliver one little course. And I mean, we've done greater than 350 courses over a career. That's wild. And so but in so and so trying to come up with exactly how we want to really click Close out a class and really take the assessments and understand them. I think that's something that's going to be on our hearts going into the next year is again this back to basics, like how are we doing what we're doing? And and how can we improve? And what are the things that people are commenting on?

Clay Tumey: 1:17:16

This is a silly question. I'm happy to cut it if necessary. But it has there ever been any feedback from those surveys? Like any one comment where it's like, oh, my gosh, this is we totally missed this. And then a change happened because of it? Or is it usually like you hear a bunch of a thing and make a change that way,

Rick Olesek: 1:17:33

I think that we do a really good job of sensing. And I think the guides are really tuned in to what it is that's coming up in the classroom. So the things that are coming up that need adjusting, usually get adjusted in the class,

Clay Tumey: 1:17:50

in real time, in real time on the spot or not on the spot. But on that that week at least.

Rick Olesek: 1:17:55

And there is an there are so many things that the guides because everyone is coming to a guy call every week where they can bring some of those challenges to the whole population, say, Hey, I noticed this or this came up and then the and all the guides in the community can then reflect on that, listen to it, and then reflect on what maybe they could consider or things that they've noticed or things that they've noticed and what they've done in their own in their own classrooms. So

Susan Olesek: 1:18:23

have a good example of that this

Clay Tumey: 1:18:25

was just about to ask. So thank you.

Susan Olesek: 1:18:27

Well, just this we even got a survey back for this class yet. But I would I would be surprised if it didn't hit the survey. We have three deaf students. And we have an interpreter that is supplied by the institution. And it's so cool. They bring so much added value and diversity to the to the curriculum. And a couple times we've gone there and we show up and the whole class is assembled, including our deaf students, but we have no interpreter. And so we can't hold class we can't even have like, no conversation. No and nobody wants to. And also the are. It's just such an impossible situation. And we are we are definitely over at CRMs office over at the you know working with the officers trying to figure out all the workarounds. Could we get a laptop? Could we get a private interpreter we and we have sometimes can't get all Wi Fi in the chapel? How do we you know, and just standing on our heads. And it happened twice. And then it happened actually not all three times in a row but a third time. And last time you went in we were like we're not canceling class. Sorry, we're gonna figure something else out. And so because Jason has has been so great about making sure all of our videos are are subtitled we actually can't show them if they're not. We ran the whole class by writing instructions on the board. And like Socratic practice, asking people to do a written exercise and passing their workbook to the person next to each other. And then we had them watch things that they don't always have people Watch the TED Talk, for example, and then put them in groups and had them have discussions and we put the all three deaf students together so they could support each other. And anyway, we are agile, and we could figure that stuff out. And I, whatever more feedback we get, we're going to sit up and pay attention.

Clay Tumey: 1:20:18

How did that work for the three deaf students?

Susan Olesek: 1:20:22

This is what I mean. I mean, we, we didn't have the debrief after that. But I felt like it was it was really working. Because, number one, we didn't have to disband, and everybody wants to be there. They really look forward to the class, we really look forward to the class.

Clay Tumey: 1:20:37

I don't think a big part of it is also just the effort like just the the give a shit involved in like trying to make it happen, instead of I think it's, unfortunately, would be really easy for some folks to just, well, we can't we're not going to sorry, we can do it. But we're still going to do what works for everybody else, which is like, What a bummer. Like that. But I guarantee that has to happen at some point, I'm

Susan Olesek: 1:21:02

sure it does happen. We don't do that. Number one that feels crappy. Do that. And that's not that's not, you know, equity, or inclusion. And, and also, because there are people in San Quentin, who are paying attention to that and advocating for it, and they come around in the in their checking, which I really appreciate. That didn't happen these last couple of classes. But yeah, I agree with you.

Clay Tumey: 1:21:26

Tough shit is not our middle of night. No. Deal with.

Rick Olesek: 1:21:31

I think you're I mean, people always ask the question around, like, What's our secret sauce? And what is it that and I think that Susan, in jail conference, you talked a lot about this. We Susan was presenting last night just a couple of weeks ago. So it still falls under this one year. thing in which she was presenting to the California jails Association, to a lot of different counties, badged and mostly bad staff, but some on bad staff, and on bad staff, someone who's not a sheriff in the sheriff's department with a sworn staff, but uh, so not a peace officer. But you kind of talked a little bit about that about, like, what is our secret sauce, and you were like, bringing a lot of love into the room and unapologetically, right, and just, hey, we're, we care, we give a shit. And so that comes across in lots of different ways. And when you do that, then people show up.

Susan Olesek: 1:22:32

That's a nice note to end on. Because if we do take a break, I don't know, doesn't have to be now. But the California jail Program Association, I think that's the right words in the right order was an invitation from Dr. Wagner, who was literally the program coordinator manager, I think as a role at that time. The first place we were programming, when Sheriff monk's said come on in. And that was our first really big contract. Second big contract after Santa Clara. And it was it was quite a celebration to come in. There was Sue who literally, you know, was a resident there before. Both times since she Sue was recently. I think this is gonna drop after that, right?

Clay Tumey: 1:23:18

No, no, this is the last episode of this season. And then soon as the first episode of the next one. Okay,

Susan Olesek: 1:23:23

well, preview. And so sue and Alex came to this conference with us and we got to talk about all that we've been doing that it really felt like a celebration of what kind of partnership that is we're seeking with institutions when someone like Dr. Wagner and at the time, Sheriff monk's and all the other people that are around her and then do what it takes to allow EPP to become one of the cornerstones of their programming. We it's taken, it's taken a lot of years to, to know, for each of us in our partnership to understand the contours of the other organization and know where we have to give and what we can't, we can't give on. And we got to program with two other we had to EPP was presenting with two other programs that were there. And it felt for us like a real gift to see all the other things that have been going on with us. There's beautiful meditation group going on and jobs, our train is there. Helping people have a pathway and

Rick Olesek: 1:24:31

to Job train. It says they do most of the vocational work for in the jails and on the outside for San Mateo.

Susan Olesek: 1:24:40

But Dr. Wagner said to whatever presented whatever you want, but invite if you can invite people to know that this is not just for the students. It's not just for the people who are doing time here. It's for all of us. And so we did we invited that and Sue and Alex just like dropped it. And afterwards people came up to them and said thank you for urine sample

Clay Tumey: 1:25:02

kind of take a video crew and do stuff like that.

Rick Olesek: 1:25:05

I know. That's that's an option.

Susan Olesek: 1:25:09

We've done it before. Yeah.

Rick Olesek: 1:25:11

And that was one of the what we what we have just a few pictures. That's all we have that that feels it feels a little bit like, how could we not have more but

Susan Olesek: 1:25:19

I hit record. I don't know if it's okay. I mean, it's just me talking but I did hit record because I wanted to make sure we could capture what Alex and Sue said so we might be able to cut and paste some crusty footage for that.

Clay Tumey: 1:25:31

We won't call it crusty I mean Yeah.

Susan Olesek: 1:25:35

On my phone was sitting on a chair behind Alex

Clay Tumey: 1:25:42

was it better than the baseball video? Probably better than the

Rick Olesek: 1:25:44

A frame this is a Pruder film. Yes,

Susan Olesek: 1:25:51

I don't know what they're talking about for the rest of you listening.

Clay Tumey: 1:25:53

He showed me a video earlier about baseball game

Rick Olesek: 1:25:56

of Gavin Gavin video yeah but you somehow it when it got set from you? It went from like this really like pristine I could almost see the base. I can almost see the stitches on the ball to like eight frames a second.

Clay Tumey: 1:26:09

Oh, how sad that I saw Bigfoot.

Susan Olesek: 1:26:15

Okay, we're winding down

Clay Tumey: 1:26:17

to there's one more thing one more topic I want to cover and then I want to do something else that was not take a lot of time. I'm reading Suzanne. What the comment that she left in the podcast, chat side channel. What do you say the podcast chat Slack channel. And her memory that she heard highlight slash memory of the year that she decided to share it was attending the first annual okay inaugural by the way, for first annual EPP camping trip to be able to gather in person to swim, sweat, and socialize. Nice alliteration. I like that. Swim, sweat and socialize, socialize.

Rick Olesek: 1:27:02

And swear.

Clay Tumey: 1:27:03

That was in August. Yep. And we're doing another one in September. But that that was. I agree. Suzanne, that was a really that was a highlight of the year for me too, because that was the first time that a lot. That's the first time that anybody met my son Phoenix was lovely. He took all the attention away from me, but we won't talk about actually in the last. My mom's it was probably a year and a half ago when a startup in particularly the last year ish with with an IPO and game path to freedom. A lot of folks have gotten to know my mom. And then at the camping trip, people got to see the magical, young one Phoenix, my son,

Susan Olesek: 1:27:42

put him on a little spot

Clay Tumey: 1:27:54

Hey, y'all, it's clay. And we are going to pause the conversation here with Rick and Susan, so that we can share a few words of appreciation for Halida Hatic. Halida is a guide with EPP she's also the community Weaver. And I've been on the inside with her I've seen her guide on the inside. I've been in many zoom calls with her many other shared spaces. And I will tell you that of all the things that I appreciate about Halida. At the top of that list is the safety and the holding that she brings to any space where I have experienced with her. And I love having this friend, this person that I can turn to and say, Hey, I have an issue with dot, dot dot, and just trust that they're going to interpret my issue correctly, and then do something about it. Because I don't always have the ability to do that. So she's one of my favorite people to turn to when there is an issue, and I trust her wholly and absolutely. And I'm so glad that she is a part of EPP and again, I just can't say enough nice things about Halida I am comfortable saying that this organization would not be what it is, without her impact.

Susan Olesek: 1:29:06

How do I love Halida Let me count the ways. I already have a very positive bias for Type Eight and it is always my my habit to say it's something to be loved by an eight that is really something to be loved by Aleta and I've I get to be with you Lita and all kinds of spaces. Recently I was teaching about Type Eight. And I was I was talking about this quality of expansion, this overall quality of expansion and I remember learning about AIDS from Russ Hudson and he said you know he just kind of go out until they hit something and they paint off of something and I feel like a really healthy eight knows that when they come up with something come up against something they know how to be with that. And then to see how we can move with whatever the obstacle is and not just like plow over it like Don't Don't you know, and and Halida said we are the ripples And I feel like that's, that's what I feel like with Lolita. Sometimes she's the big splash. But often she's just the ripples going out with so much like, think about how graceful and symmetrical and beautiful and perfect those are liters of ripple. I

Dana Vitorelo: 1:30:17

really appreciate Holly does capacity and desire to just keep it real. She's always super kind about it. And she never wavers in the truth and the areas that she feels convicted in. And she just is constantly stepping into right action. And I, I often don't see the bigger picture in the way that Halida does. So I really love when she talks about something or shares about something and I get to hear her insights around it, because it always invites me to view something in a way that I probably never would have viewed it on my own. So appreciating Halida Oh, and how can we leave this part out? There's the way that she phrases in articulates everything, I mean, our community, whoever it EPP, but just the way that she weaves in story and is relentlessly in the work. So deep appreciation for Halida and gratitude that I get to work beside her,

Rick Olesek: 1:31:19

I get the privilege of getting to work with Halida in so many different spaces. And what, what always seems to come up for me is that she she's able to kind of connect with a source that, that I that I kind of dream of connecting with. And so when when she is when she is really grounded, in speaking to me about something, whatever is usually whatever is the issue of the day, she brings so much wisdom for like how to really like consider what it is that this maybe I'm looking at this problem just backwards, maybe I'm looking at this thing, you know, without enough perspective. And I always feel that like grounded wisdom, when she can get to that space. And it's just it is, it's lovely to be in those spaces, and I just adore her and adore thee that I get them. And I've just feel so privileged that I get to spend so much time with her. And besides the fact that she's incredibly competent, and all the things that she's doing, that's, that's kind of a given, but the heart that she shows and the way in which she's able to just bring that heart online, just just love it.

Laura Hooper: 1:32:49

Oh Halida How much she has taught me about what's possible, and how to hold all of it. She has this way of really, I think sometimes almost seeing, seeing what a lot of us can't see, and the bigness of of what we're up to, and that that we can all actually hold it. And this beautiful commitment to community and all of us going along on this journey together. I am forever amazed by her litas capacity, to hold all of us and hold herself in the midst of, of whatever's going on. Really. She's taught me a lot about how to how to lean into that, and how to listen to, to my inner knowing. And my goodness, how much we get done, because she's part of the project and how much we not just get done, but get done with, with love and intention. And I am so glad to be in relationship with Halida and everything that she has brought to my life personally and to the project Halida You rock and I love you to pieces.

Robin Grant: 1:34:08

Well Halida I'm not sure I could add anything more than what has already been said so beautifully. In this appreciation message. I consider you a friend and a colleague and a really special human being. You were one of the kindness, most thoughtful person, I think I know. And the energy and the spirit that you bring to this organization and to us as a community is really beautiful. And I've always seen and perceived you as someone who models our values and embodies our values and inspires us to lean into those values of trust and gratitude and flexibility and doing the work together. And I just don't appreciate She ate how you definitely weave that into not only conversations, but just with who you are. And I really appreciate you and I'm so grateful that you are part of our organization in our world, and helping make this world a better place.

Rick Olesek: 1:35:27

One thing that I was thinking about was we mentioned the San Quentin graduation in our conversation. Yes, yesterday, and we never got to it. We never really talked at length about it. And it was a it was a big deal. And it was also something that was really important in our, you know, kind of re rebooting after the, after the pandemic.

Clay Tumey: 1:35:58

For for context that this episode will be after another episode, where we talked about graduation at RJ Donovan, with Mike and Suzanne, they came in, they happen to be in town on vacation. And so they came in and joined us for graduation that we did there, what you're talking about is a totally different graduation.

Rick Olesek: 1:36:15

Right? It was a little bit before the RJ Donovan graduation, it was one that happened in San Quentin in January.

Clay Tumey: 1:36:21

So what was the big deal there?

Rick Olesek: 1:36:23

Well, I would love Susan to talk about it. It was she was it was her class that was graduating her in Cynthia's class. And then you already graduated, but it was a get together of just some folks from you know, all the new and past and past and present students and a few other people that came into the into the space.

Susan Olesek: 1:36:43

I think it was, it was really a marking of the fact that we were able to start again, number one, we've been out since March of 2020. And we didn't get back in until August of 2023. No 2222. Thank you for the dates, always. And so it had been two and a half years. And it was it did feel really momentous. Just the fact that we were able to program again, we weren't having to wear masks, and that we could be in there at all. And it took us a minute to form that class. It took some rebuilding of trust, people really felt abandoned the fact that we weren't there, even though we really couldn't be there. We made a choice not to become a correspondence program, which a lot of other programs became. And we use the pandemic to become better at and more able to train more guides. In hindsight, I wished we had, we'd lost our CRM contact that really helped us to know our way in there, we really didn't feel like we had many resources. And what's the CRM Community Resource Manager to help just helped us some so many ways to figure out what was what, and nobody knew what was up then. But I would have tried to communicate more in hindsight, that was it was a hard learning for us. And the truth is, we never went anywhere. We've always just stayed the course. So we got to come back in it took us a minute to form the class, we gave ourselves 20 weeks to teach a 12 week class and people were like any a what a lot of people had been released. People didn't know how to sign up. And slowly but surely, we ended up with two pretty good sized classes, me and Cynthia and and it was beautiful. And by the end, they were saying the same things that people often say at the end of our courses. And we were able to navigate enough with going in through mental health to have permission to have a graduation, we program in the chapel now, which we had a choice of where to program and there are another one of the different classes and we knew we'd sometimes be up against other people who would like to use the chapel for their own reasons. And we've definitely had to sacrifice at different times. But it meant that when we wanted to have a big event like like we did, we had space. And it's the first time we had so many people who have positions of real influence inside of the prison who came and seemed to be aware of what we were doing. We had the chief of mental health, the chief psychologist, we had a chief psychologist who sits on the board of parole. The warden came and we just haven't had that many people before that interested in what we were doing. So it felt really good. And there were a lot of funny moments about it. I didn't I didn't know the warden at all. I'd never been introduced to him. So I introduced myself and asked him if he'd ever heard of the Enneagram and he said yes, my wife often tells me my six is showing and I was like oh my gosh you know wardens got it got a type nosy as a type and apparently his wife likes the Enneagram and it was right before we started and I didn't know if it was okay to mention that or not. I said I kind of like made some reference to it and then he put a five and a one up in his hands and like saying it's okay for everybody to know. And I just think that's, that's open, you know, people on the outside don't want people to know what type they're working with sometimes.

Clay Tumey: 1:40:09

Oh, you mentioned the the folks that were there that you haven't really had that kind of get the word you use. But basically the there were some How did you say that? Actually,

Susan Olesek: 1:40:20

I don't know what I said. But muckety mucks people who make decisions and have power and influence over how what we get to do.

Clay Tumey: 1:40:27

So what what encouraged them to show up this this time that you're talking about where that that didn't exist previously? Like what was different that they wanted to show up for that? Is it just a matter of inviting them? Or did they had we always invited them? And now they had a different reason to say, a different answer. Well,

Susan Olesek: 1:40:42

a couple things, some of what you said, I have made, I have been introduced to some of the people in the Department of Mental Health, we when we couldn't find our way back. And we were one of the last groups to come back into San Quentin. And we had always come in through the as volunteers are still volunteers, but we came in instead through the chief of mental health, and she really has helped us navigate something that we didn't know how else to do. So She then invited some of her colleagues and helped me to understand who else should be included. And so that that was helpful. And I had connected with the psychologist on the Board of Parole Hearings a long time before and had just recently made contact with him again, so I just happen to let them know

Clay Tumey: 1:41:28

any game. So tell us a little bit more about the day there about the event, the graduation. What was special about it.

Susan Olesek: 1:41:37

I mean, there are endless special things about it, not just the stage that I just said about who came. But a really amazing part of the day was that Chuck, who was released during the pandemic, got to come back into San Quentin through the front gate. And Dr. Greenwald helped to capture some of that, and maybe he'll share some of his footage with you. interviewing him at the front gate, and even his walk all the way in. I'm having deja vu, like we've already talked about this on a podcast. Have we

Clay Tumey: 1:42:12

not on a podcast? We've talked about it. And I've talked about it with others on a podcast too. Okay, just just like and I'm I haven't gotten my hands on the footage yet. And I've asked a little bit about what happened? And the answer is usually well, we'll just let you see the video.

Susan Olesek: 1:42:27

Well, I don't want to steal Chuck's thunder, he would be great to bring his voice in and

Clay Tumey: 1:42:33

might have talked about it with Sue, which nobody's heard yet.

Susan Olesek: 1:42:39

Dun dun dun. Well, that's just quite a moment when somebody gets to come in that way. And there was a moment coming through the Sallyport, where Chuck saw a CEO, that Chuck's there and all his, you know, looking really sharp, free clothes, and they just kind of did a double take with each other and so hard to put that to capture that kind of moment into words, but I could just feel the dignity with every step that Chuck regained by getting to be able to,

Clay Tumey: 1:43:14

to do that. I don't think you said this, but Chuck is one of our ambassadors. And I really need to just sit down and chat with him about that. Because I think it's, it's always, for me, at least it's fun to hear. I don't know, maybe fun is not the right word. But it's fun to me to hear stories of going back in for the first time because everybody has different experiences where it was really good in this way. Or it was there was an issue this way, or sometimes things can be very triggering, right? And it's also cool to go back in and it'd be among the people there who are still incarcerated and you feel like you can you get special attention, like people are happy to see Yeah, it's a it's a bit of hope. Like you like Chuck being there is a representation of of the hope that is been realized, right, that you can get out and he

Rick Olesek: 1:44:02

was he was definitely I mean the the central focus for the for the for the day. And he sat and we were we were in the chapel and all the chairs had been taken out of rows and then we were sitting in a very very large circle, you know, in the entire chapel and Alex and have like

Clay Tumey: 1:44:24

pews there don't they? They did, did they?

Susan Olesek: 1:44:27

They did but I think the pews got left out in the rain or when they were cleaning them they got warped and then they got tossed.

Clay Tumey: 1:44:35

Okay, so no more

Rick Olesek: 1:44:37

it's all chairs now. But it was a was Alex and Chuck and Susan in kind of the front of the room. And and Alex and Chuck got to spend a good amount of time talking about this, the two of them, talking about what and Susan interviewing them kind of like asking them questions, but just never being able to talk about what it's like to come back into a facility that they've done. The timing,

Susan Olesek: 1:45:00

and it was also really beautiful because we got to invite back. Some of our graduates from past classes who really didn't, we hadn't seen, they hadn't come by they people had other, you know, things going on. So as they, they were probably 75 of us or so in the in the group. And then we got to sort of remember moments and invited them in as part of the flow of everything. And I was very special. And afterwards, when we had a lot of conversation with people that we just had not, we not been able to, you know, I wanted to hug that couldn't do that, but we could really reconnect.

Clay Tumey: 1:45:37

See you opened a picture up on your phone? I can't see what it is, but it looks like a good one.

Susan Olesek: 1:45:41

Yeah, this is a picture of all of us afterwards, we don't have I don't think that's everybody. I think maybe someone had to leave one or two. I see Chuck's not in that picture. So he's already gone. But like I said, it was it was a beautiful event, there were some mic drops, especially by Alex and Chuck. And and also the students who just graduated who are saying things, frankly, like people who've been with at this work for a long, long time, and many of them have they've there been, you know, in for two or three decades. And they are starting to see what we see why what the person from the board of roll can see is that this is a tool that helps to connect people back to like, connect the dots up, as we say all the time on this podcast. And one of the take a pause here and think what I want to say is actually don't know if he wants to be named

Clay Tumey: 1:46:41

guy this morning, bleep it afterwards,

Rick Olesek: 1:46:43

that will just say this. Is that? Is that one of the things that really struck me in that? There wasn't it was? Yes, of course, it was the students that were just had just matriculated. Right? It was the students from before that were able to really celebrate with them. And then it was also we had we were we were there with a lot of folks from EPP guides and other visitors. How

Clay Tumey: 1:47:09

many people would you say like altogether? 75. From EPP Oh, like that we

Rick Olesek: 1:47:16

that we went I think we cleared 25 Okay. 25 so pretty good chunk. Yeah, we are in. And it was a Yeah. And, and so we were able to hold a lot of different spaces. And it wasn't just a celebration of like a graduation, it was also, you know, broke into small groups and had conversations and, and, and talked and types. And it was really, it was just there was a lot of holding happening that day. The role to bring, you know, refreshments and stuff in which is always, always a big, big draw. The shockingly, the we brought in all these refreshing world cookies,

Clay Tumey: 1:47:56

exactly.

Rick Olesek: 1:48:00

Shocker. Nothing, nothing was left. Yeah.

Susan Olesek: 1:48:05

We always want to do that. And it's just extra hard to try to figure out how to do it. But what I what I want to get to is that afterwards, Tara hosted us at her house for tea and cake, which was delicious and beautiful. And we invited the people who we invited to the event to tars as well. And they came Yeah. And so then we got to really have even more connection and conversation. And so the chiefs were there and the the people that we've been working with the Enneagram, I've actually been taught some of the chiefs from San Quentin and from some other places with Dr. Greenwald. And then in walks the warden with his wife who I didn't invite because I didn't know who he I mean, I knew who he was definitely know who he is. But I didn't have that relationship with him. And what I found later was because now we've gotten to be a lot more connected, especially to his wife. I think this will be okay to say is that he came home, they live on the grounds at the prison. And he said to Kim, you want to go to an Enneagram thingy. And she does love the Enneagram and she's like, oh, what? And he's like, Yeah, I just went to this event and the chapel was really cool. And so he came and he brought her and they just came like a breath of fresh air and he's he's as six as they come and so warm, earnest, do the right thing kind of guy you can feel his heart is in, in the work where ours is. And he's been he loves San Quentin. And he loves his job there. And Kim has loved Enneagram for a long time and has not worked at San Quentin just for a little little bit. And at the end when we had to go we had lots of conversation recognized with them and they just weren't making the rounds like they were just EPP family. And we we clicked our glasses. I think Chuck was the first one that had to go and I just asked him Nobody wanted to say anything, I wasn't gonna make everybody go around and say another word. And he was the first to speak. And his name is Ron from field. And he said, I had a really hard day today. And he had sat next to Rick and shared some of that with you. I think in the event, he couldn't stay for the whole thing. And he said, I just needed to go someplace today were good things were happening. And this is a place for good things are happening. This was the wind in my sails today. He said, and boom, I was like, well, we would love to always be the wind in your sails. anymore that, but you know, he could say anything or say nothing. And he chose to say that. That's pretty cool.

Clay Tumey: 1:50:43

I don't know what that was like for Chuck to hear that. I said, How long has he been working there?

Susan Olesek: 1:50:47

least four years or so?

Rick Olesek: 1:50:49

I'm not sure. I think he came in right in the he wasn't the warden for a long time and that he came in at in the pandemic, right? Yeah. Acting Warden, right, about the same time of the pen that we could probably look it up. But yeah, and he's no, he's now he was

Clay Tumey: 1:51:03

there when Chuck was,

Rick Olesek: 1:51:05

he was there when Chuck was

Unknown: 1:51:08

cool. That's saying that as Chuck about.

Susan Olesek: 1:51:12

So then what I think the other thing was I, I followed up with the folks that came afterwards. And I followed up with Cliff crusade, who's this person from the one of the commissioners that I talked about, and he spontaneously sent me a report he'd been writing for the board to talk about his time. And I could tell this is somebody who's also tracking what we've been doing. In fact, there was an event, I found, just before we started reprogramming again this summer. And the, one of the students in our class said, two people from or one person from the border patrol came, it wasn't Clif, but it was somebody that he works with. And so here's a guy who just, I don't even know half literally stumbled into our program doesn't didn't really know what it was. And then before you know it, he's going up to a, he's he's sitting in the audience, listening to a presentation during mental health week about programs to watch in San Quentin, and the and he's actually the MC. And that person who's standing next to says Enneagram Prison Project is one of those programs that we feel like is really, you know, doing good work here at the prison. And he was like, I'm in that class. Even know, what do you had a hold of? I'll tell you by the end, he definitely definitely did. So. I've, I've since met up with Cliff and he's a Type One. And he really understands and he's willing to help me to understand more about the board and maybe even getting a chance to present the Enneagram in more of a methodical way to the different commissioners so that they can understand when people are sitting in front of them what kind of questions to ask to actually be on the right track, as you know, to because their whole job is to determine whether or not somebody's ready for release.

Clay Tumey: 1:52:58

Do you know what they look at Lego what it is about? Because if you go if you go before the board, and you have gone through EVP, or you've gone through some kind of similar programming like it, it looks a different way to the board. Do you know what their what they consider what kind of things they look for what they anything around that

Susan Olesek: 1:53:16

I would definitely point you to some people who've gotten out recently who have brought up their, their time in Enneagram, Prison Project curriculum to the board during their hearings, or who have been asked about it. And I could slip you that list of names because I'm talking to them, too. That's what I'll be presenting at the IEA this summer. And to that shout out to that, what I've been hearing from them informally. And also what I've been hearing from Cliff is that they really want to know if you can talk about your past, you can talk about it honestly, without being flooded with shame, having compassion for yourself, having compassion for your victims, and being able to have an honest narrative about what happened. And what I've heard is they don't care if you can, you know, get all the Enneagram speak down. That's not That's not their job. They don't they're not after that they want to know, are you? Are you really on the healed path healed enough to come back and not be retriggered? So you can you hold on to yourself? Well, I just I think I'll just say one more thing about that, since that event. We have there's been an announcement by Gavin Newsom, Governor California to put what was the budget, remember $20 million towards the Norway prison model at San Quentin. And so there's a big push for a step in the right direction. I mean, I think we all know that the problem was probably bigger than$20 million. But if there's an interest in taking some of what has been going on in that part of the world and applying it to folks in San Quentin, my goodness, we want to be a part of that and

Clay Tumey: 1:55:00

But for somebody who might not know what that is, what is the Norway prison model?

Susan Olesek: 1:55:06

Well, I can, I don't think I can describe the whole model. I know, I've been to some prisons in Norway. And it's not like what they're doing in San Quentin. When I was in Norway, they had a very, very compassionate approach. They were really about healing they were about normalizing. The way that the way that people are treated and not normalization, as in normalizing the violence and the marginalization, but helping people to see so you're on humanity. Yeah. Human humanizing. Yeah, humanizing.

Rick Olesek: 1:55:42

In just a small little snippet, as Susan, just reflecting something that Susan had told me, is that there's a lot of movement back and forth between the prison and, and society. It's not something where it is where you're just locked up. And, you know, and, and you're not going to see the light of day until it's time for you to leave. There really is this like, slowly moving towards something where people can, can can get back into the, into, in small ways back into society and be able to, again, be able to reenter, because that's what the, that's what they're, that's what their rehabilitation that they're shooting for, is is to, is to help folks to be able to reenter

Clay Tumey: 1:56:31

to actually, oh, I don't know, rehabilitate. Right. About there. I'm not shy about my opinions about how we do how we do prisons up, but I just make you feel to

Susan Olesek: 1:56:46

hear about it. Clay, are you dubious, are you I'm skeptical?

Clay Tumey: 1:56:49

Yeah, I think I won't say that I'm, first of all, any conversation that's in that direction, I'm for it. So even if it's people who don't necessarily believe in, I'm still supportive of the conversation I'm down for, if you want to try, I'm down to help you try or get out of the way while you try. Whatever whatever I can do to support what we currently do doesn't work. And so anytime somebody is acknowledging that, whether directly or indirectly by trying a new thing, I'm thumbs up to that. And I also think that I'm, I'm just not very likely to go like, celebrate simply at the admission of what we're doing doesn't work. So I'm like, okay, cool. Yeah, it's awesome. Thumbs up, I'll wait and see how it goes. Or if or if, or if I'm invited in, if I'm invited into directly help. I'm down. It's all that. So I think culturally, we're we're starting to understand that we kind of suck at how we do prison, like it doesn't work. Right? I mean, it just, it just people get out and go back people. It's, it's a waste of money. The for profit thing is a whole like, are you trying to get me into full blown rat mode here by not stop, I'm just like, that's what prison is here. So any any step away from that I'm done with, I'm good for good with. And I know that there are places like RJ Donovan, and I have more experience there. So I'm not leaving out San Quentin, I just don't have I don't have the experience at San Quentin, the way that I do it are Judo but I can I've seen where things can be better here in America. And I know it's possible. And I've also seen places where it's still like, borderline third world country style of prisons, where people get out and go right back. And it's, you know, I like it. So from the conversation with Mike and Susanne, from the previous episode, and Mike says one of the things that historically has been one of my bigger triggers about it, you know, if you do the crime, then you do the time. And that's how we think of it in America. And he and by the way, he said, That's not what he sees anymore. It's not how he thinks. And that's not that's not, it just doesn't make sense. And so it's, it's, it's fun seeing people gradually get away from that. And you know, like, a few 100 people out of 300 something million is a tiny, tiny step, but it's a step. So anyways, I'm torn. Between the two of were like, Yeah, I'm down for whatever. And also, I believe I want to see it.

Susan Olesek: 1:59:20

Yeah, well, I don't think I don't know, what were you said not dubious? Did you say do these skeptics? I'm not, I wouldn't almost ever classify myself as a skeptical person, but I am finding more measure inside of myself. Like we've been at this for 11 years. So slow process. And I think it's, it's awesome. Let's, let's see and hear more of that. And we absolutely want to be a part and it's gonna take a minute, you know, it's not gonna happen overnight.

Clay Tumey: 1:59:47

Well, even in those 11 years, like this is where it's really easy for me to be you know, optimistic because I remember the conversation 11 years ago, where it was I did you know, talk you did this thing and This small prison in Cleveland, Texas. And it works and there's hope and there's potential. And the conversation then was very dream focused of like, this is what could happen, or this is what, you know, this is what we think is possible or whatever. And it was very dream, it was very dreamy. And even though I believed in it, then it was still very dream oriented. And we're now you know, decade plus down the road, there is evidence and there's experience, and there's places where it's like, we still have big dreams, like of what I would do not want to miss. Y'all smiled at each other for the I had a moment of sparkles. But that's that, like now it is a thing that we can instead of saying, Well, you know, what could happen, we can say what this is what is happening in, in San Diego and San Francisco and, you know, in, in, there are several places where good stuff has happened. And so it still there still is the hope and the big dreamy conversations. And but there's a lot more history and evidence to support what the dreams are, I think. Right? Which is really good. It's really cool. Yeah, that there's a subtle,

Rick Olesek: 2:01:17

one of the one of the songs. I think one of the things that I have seen since this and, you know, Susan, Susan was in Cleveland in 2009, so almost 14 years, almost 15 years ago, is that the conversation around corrections in the United States has changed. And it's changed for a lot of reasons. And I'm definitely not going to get on my soapbox. But I have a lot of push. No, but but but I think that there is this thing, where we can start to see that in as things become, as people can start to see what's possible, you know, through some of the global conversations, of seeing how other countries do corrections, and seeing how, how some of those some of these programs can work in in places, then there really isn't any place to hide anymore. For for what would have constituted corrections, back in the 80s, or the 90s. Right there, that just doesn't fly anymore. Just like that's, it's not. And so what I think I'm also seeing is, is a lot of folks who as people can start to see things that are that work than the people then then they actually even the administrators or people in the some of the other administrations can actually come up with some of their own hope, and say, Oh, maybe we could try this. And it all starts with just trying something. Yeah. And, and, and then and then you know, kind of a little bit of a spark happens. And then someone else tries it in the summer. And so there's these, you if you go around the US for sure, you can see lots of stories of, of ways in which people are doing different things in corrections, especially around the the the programming and mental health and there's a lot so I I do feel like there is a we are in this space where there's opportunity. And there's opportunity for change. And it doesn't come doesn't come without a lot of just what feels like a lot of time and energy. But it were pushing back against something that was you know, pretty, pretty darn difficult,

Susan Olesek: 2:03:55

pretty archaic. And, you know, it strikes me clay when you say what you said about it being a dream. I prefer the word vision for the record. Sounds like it's just completely pollyannish Yeah, I don't know why that doesn't look like it's made up.

Clay Tumey: 2:04:12

We had a conversation before the mics were on earlier and we talked about dreams and they were foretelling dreams were and so that I when I say dream, I'll say vision, if you prefer, but to me dream is not like lala land. It's not a land of make believe. Like it's, it's the things that you dream about. And like this is, you know, the hope the dream the vision, like this is a thing that isn't currently here. And, you know, it's people say stuff like it's the things that dreams are made of. Right. And I and so that I'll say vision,

Susan Olesek: 2:04:46

no. I like I like the way the context that you're bringing me back to and I think I've been patted on the head one too many times for like, that's nice, sweetheart. You know, like and that's not. I know, that's not what you're saying. And it's not how I feel either. Yeah, so Fair enough. But I like vision too, though. Right now,

Clay Tumey: 2:05:07

we lost space up there just for,

Susan Olesek: 2:05:10

like, came to life with. Yeah. And, and it was, you know, either way a dream or a vision was just in someone's head, right? It's definitely in my head was in my heart. And I remember a spiritual guide I work with at one point said, you know when you finally live into something that's been in your mind or in your heart, it's been a dream or a vision, you don't always have like a ticker tape parade going off, because you're ready to be it for it to be your reality. And that's what I was starting to feel as you were talking right there that we've come a long way. And it isn't just, oh, maybe someday, it's like, we probably could be in a lot more institutions than we are if we wanted to. Because we don't have a hard time giving people a bunch of references to talk to and to, to say this is our track record code, talk to the people who are currently implementing these programs with us. And so it feels it feels damn good to be in the space that we are knowing we know how to do the programming that we're doing. And in some ways, if we're here forever, you know, we're just getting started.

Rick Olesek: 2:06:23

Yeah, right. And I want to just call it one other thing out, which is, what we've realized is that, it can't be, it can't just be us. And so we are always in on the lookout for and in, you know, look on the lookout for is probably the right word, or a phrase for angels on the inside people who actually can, can dream with us or have the vision with us, and who are just wanting something to be different also, and are are able to, to make things different, because they have, you know, the power on the inside to be able to do that whatever it is, even if it's if it's clearing people or getting space or, or just, you know, introducing us to the right people so that we can bring our programming in whatever it is these, these angels that we talked about. And you know, certainly with Heather being one of those people that went to Clinton, you know, she was there being able to just document chuck stuff, and, and it's in it and she's done so much for us. And there's so many others that have been doing that for us, too.

Clay Tumey: 2:07:33

So when you say Angel, can you get? Is there a clear definition of what that actually for somebody who doesn't necessarily know or have a lot of context? Is that is that facility? Can is it's somebody

Rick Olesek: 2:07:45

employees, it's somebody well, whether it's state employees or not? I mean, sometimes students? Yeah, okay. So as a student, sometimes it's somebody, someone who is touched by what is possible, and has the ability can see they can look at the landscape of that prison, and or that jail, and be able to say, I can see how we can do this, and then actually start to help manifest it.

Clay Tumey: 2:08:14

So it can even a chaplain at a county jail. That's right.

Susan Olesek: 2:08:17

Right. Even, I would say the clerk who works with the chaplain in the prison, and we have many clerks like that, that we've come into contact with over the years that every time we walk in the same, the same clerk is there. And he not only Oh, my goodness, like makes all the tech work hooks up the video, I don't have to touch any of that stuff. He also knows when to come interrupt me in the middle of class to tell me something that I might need to know. He also knows how to pull out the phone directory and help me call all of the different dorms and pods and places to make sure that people who aren't showing up can show up he like all that advocacy that helps. Because I don't know how to do any of that. And I don't even I don't even know how to ask how to do any of that. Right? So this angels, I think, are just people who know something we don't know and know how to get it done.

Clay Tumey: 2:09:05

What would be something they would interrupt class for to come tell you about that? You didn't know? What would you said that it's

Susan Olesek: 2:09:11

a good one. I had a student before the pandemic who was at our course for, I would say two years more or maybe a little less. And I was interrupted in the middle of class A couple months ago. And so I just put my hand up like I'll be right here. I'm like literally leading something. And I came out and the student I knew had been found suitable and he had come to the chapel to say goodbye and let me know he was being released in the morning. And I was so happy to be interrupted because I would go meet lots of people at the gate if I only knew when they were getting out. We just don't have that kind of infrastructure to even be in touch with people that way and he not only was just about to get out is about to get out and go to a really shitty place. We were able to get in front of that or at least Become aware of it and be part of his team to help him to not end up there forever. And anyway, that was a good reason to interrupt.

Clay Tumey: 2:10:08

What is the, for somebody who's never been on the inside, either as a visitor or as a resident or as anything else and might not know much about prison? What's it like to celebrate something like that? When there are such very strict regulation around contact? So I couldn't even give like a high five or a hug or anything like that.

Susan Olesek: 2:10:29

I've shaken like a hearty handshake to handle handshake is all I'll do. And you know, people don't I mean, you know, this clay but it's, it's not only because it's just a no, no, it really could jeopardize somebody's whole future, they can get in a ton of trouble for over familiarity as good i. So I just I'm good at containing and suppressing that kind of comes with the personality. And you can convey a lot with a smile with your eyes with your words. And I did give him a really big hug when he got out. Yeah, but not

Clay Tumey: 2:11:01

on the inside. So weird that they their hug is the big is probably one of the bigger no knows that there is on the inside of this. It's the big, it's the thing that you want to do. It should be the thing that's allowed. And it's not any soap boxes.

Rick Olesek: 2:11:18

No soap boxes, but I will say that it's when you when you see corrections in other countries, different. It's different.

Clay Tumey: 2:11:29

Yep. Oh, my

Susan Olesek: 2:11:30

goodness, on the way into the jail in Belgium, everybody's, you know, three visas on each kids, she can learn, so happy to see you. And not just all that, not to all the detainees. That's not true. But certainly the correctional staff are that friendly with each other.

Clay Tumey: 2:11:46

It's one of the cooler things about being an ambassador and going inside, for whatever reason, we totally have the green light for the ol, like, the high five that goes into a hug, or like the high five handshake, whatever we call that. The lit, it goes into like the one armed hug. And then the other one. And nobody ever says anything about that. Yeah, I don't know why that is, but it is. So I just I'm not going to ask I enjoy. I mean, I've done in front of of staff, like wardens, they don't don't care, we get a pass on a lot of things like that, which is super cool. So he's to make me nervous, but now it's just like, they'll let me know when it's not okay. I think part of it honestly, is, I think they still see us. sounds negative to say it this way. But I think they still kind of they don't fully separate us from that group. And so it's okay, that

Susan Olesek: 2:12:32

one time where that's a fringe benefit.

Clay Tumey: 2:12:34

Yeah. That's a good way to put it. And so I just, we've done that in classes where you know, sometimes at the end of class, there's a panel that was a little tougher, some things came up and a person might stay behind the process a little bit extra, whatever. And I've been at places where there were no words, it was just an extended hug. And, and the thing is, you know, like the I got you kind of thing, like it's, I'm here, right? And I might be leaving today, but I'm still here. You know, that kind of stuff. There's certain things that can only be communicated through through a hug like that. So we get the past so we use it.

Susan Olesek: 2:13:14

I think there's one more thing I want to say. I think if I don't say it now sort of like, I feel like I'm leaving out an important thing that happened this year. That's more somber. I mentioned when we first started talking about the biographies that one time a student named John came in and he written the biography overnight and he had you could see how much like toxicity had come out of him just in putting it down. And it was really it was really significant because he touched us so much, and eventually was transferred to prison. And I got to be in contact with his fiancee at the time who married him and they actually asked me to marry them but I wasn't allowed to buy the facility which was those budget logistics I can guess I can understand that even though I wanted to.

Clay Tumey: 2:14:15

Can you marry people?

Susan Olesek: 2:14:17

I have married people I didn't know that well. You could do in five minutes on the internet it's not like I'm not like Alex Senegal who's like all official I just did a document on the internet it's it's legit just to say everyone Susan I think I'm nine years in

Rick Olesek: 2:14:32

they call me not sure your reference a

Susan Olesek: 2:14:34

piece of papers I just want to say it's it's nothing but a formality I've done on the internet. And I did marry a good friend of mine.

Clay Tumey: 2:14:42

Cherry on reverend. But you weren't allowed to

Susan Olesek: 2:14:48

wasn't allowed to. I did stay in touch with John over the years and and he had a up and down time and transferred to a bunch of different prisons and he wasn't And suppose to get out for 20 years. But I do have, in my mind a way of imagining how things will be for somebody. And I always imagined that John was going to get out early and be an ambassador. And I found out just about a week ago that John died. And I had heard that he just transferred to RJD, which is a place where we program and I didn't know that, and I was about to connect with him. And, and then I heard all of that in this in the space of just a few short days, and I'm in touch with his, his widow now. And it hit me really hard, because it, it is a lot of celebration that we're here talking about. There's a lot of things that have a lot of progress that's been made. And I know, John, John's life was not for naught. He has a beautiful eight year old daughter and his and his wife. And he's the person who I talked about on a on a did that TEDx Eisah. And always felt so much hope and that man, and there is real heartache that I just wanted, I just want to name a note. And it's not all joyful progress. And look, what's happening sometimes is just really crappy things that shouldn't have happened. That did. And I don't know how he died. I'm not here to comment on it. I don't want to. I don't want to I don't know. I don't know. But he was too young to die, and yet a lot of life in him. And so just want to have a moment of silence tribute to John and all he inspired me, because it was a hell of a lot.

Clay Tumey: 2:16:59

You said you're in contact with his wife. Yeah. Is she? Does she have any interest in like a she around any of our any of our groups or meetings or calls are

Susan Olesek: 2:17:11

coming to reconnecting a little bit? She doesn't live locally? Us 4242. We're gonna see you tomorrow. So I'll definitely be connecting with her. But I don't there's a lot. I have a lot of questions. And I can't wait to give her a hug. A hug. I didn't get to give it to John.

Clay Tumey: 2:17:27

Yeah. What a bummer. It's sad. I think it's worth sharing the heart, along with the joy and celebration, because it keeps it real. And it's also just part of what we experience. And I think we I think there's so much pain that we just we claim to all the joy that we can sometimes. And to the extent that we try to forget the pain, which is not fair. It's not fair, both to herself. And just the reality of life

Susan Olesek: 2:17:58

is a beautiful way of putting it clay. I think that's really true.

Clay Tumey: 2:18:05

Any, anything? I don't know how to segue from that. I'll just say that out loud. I don't I don't, I don't like to just go and just jump into something.

Susan Olesek: 2:18:15

I don't either. I don't know that there's a thing? Is that really the note we want to end on? And then I just kept thinking about it. And I thought like, how, how? How could I not mentioned John?

Clay Tumey: 2:18:28

Yeah, that would be a bummer. I think. Right?

Susan Olesek: 2:18:31

I just think ending with our hearts open my heart is is really impacted by him by the loss of him. And by all he inspired while he was here.

Rick Olesek: 2:18:43

I think that that that love three thing is right here in front of us where we can hold both the joy and the sorrow and try to find that reconciling force somewhere. is important, I think for all of us, just to be like you were just saying to be in the real and no. Prison is very, very difficult, and sometimes near impossible to, to navigate.

Clay Tumey: 2:19:21

Or understand. The, you're reminding me of the ending of the book that I wrote the autobiography about my life. And at the end of it the afterword. Actually, the first two words are prison sucks. And if the message that you get from this is that prison is a great place to go and just fix your life then right maybe that's the wrong message. Don't try this at home is this. It just for me, it worked and for others it works and so it is there's there's people that I know through my connection to prison and my crimes and all that stuff that that are lifelong family as far as I'm concerned. And in prison doesn't get credit for That's right. That's just kind of how I think of it. The prison totally sucks. And it just so happens that good things happen there. And good people go there. And have your phones lit up at the exact same time, actually,

Susan Olesek: 2:20:12

because I'm Amazon package just arrived at our door.

Clay Tumey: 2:20:18

That would make sense. Yeah, that's, that's, that's funny. I don't I want to end with, there's more to talk about, we can talk about. But I do have a couple of questions actually. Maybe simple. Maybe not is just, if in the last 12 months, if somebody says, Hey, so what's the highlight of year 11. With EPP what's, what's the first thing that pops away?

Susan Olesek: 2:20:46

I can take that I can say, I said earlier that we made a choice not to become a correspondents program. during all that time in the pandemic mean, we've talked so much about the pandemic and what we were able to do with it. GTB eight is a damn good way to train people to be future guides. And we, we have opened back up and we're we hit the ground running and we have our foundation set, we know where we're going, we know who, who we're about. And I'm, I'm just so glad that we got our arms around that while we had the time to do that. And so a real highlight for me is to see the new crop of people new blood coming in and to feel the joy and the leveling up the evolution of these new folks who came on the shoulders of so many people who stood in the trenches before them as, as a huge highlight for me, when we got a lot of people were trying to figure out how to get into their first apprenticeship, but that's what we're focused on. And we're gonna do it, we're gonna do it so that we can open up more facilities and more Johnson the world.

Unknown: 2:21:56

About you, Rick? Yeah,

Rick Olesek: 2:21:59

I think my, my highlight is probably very similar to Susan's, but I think it's, maybe I'll just say it a little differently, which is that we did spend a lot of time during the pandemic, like lots of people, really understanding how we could be as an organization and how we compete with each other, and create what I sometimes talk about the infrastructure for being able to deliver these programs, not just here, but around the world. And my highlight is that we are now able to go back into prison in lots of ways and, and be able to, to be doing the work that we're supposed to be doing. And doing it with, with so many just incredible folks that can they can hold the spaces that they that they're asked to hold. And like Susan said, and find more and more people to connect with on the inside.

Susan Olesek: 2:23:00

And I wonder what's it like for you, I mean, your way, way back to the beginning to sit and see all of this is all the fruits of our labor. And let's come from that was like the UK.

Clay Tumey: 2:23:13

I remember so clearly, like the earliest early days, and it's so cool to be able to just see where everything got so much better. In places where we didn't know that it was even possible. Like I've talked about this many times about how there was a real concern. Like you're the only Susan in the world. And we by we I mean me even that sometimes we would kind of joke like this is it can only like right not scalable. Yeah, and we said it in different words that were probably way more harsh and not so professional. But there was a real concern of like, yeah, you're awesome at all, but you're one person and like, this is can't be like a actual globally can't be traveling around the world doing all this stuff. And we just we just really doubted the possibility of more people being able to be awesome in their own way. And, and, and I think one of my, one of my one of the things that I love about how it is here in the future is how wrong we were about that. And you're still the only Susan that there ever was. And it just all you know also happens to be true that Danis the only data that there ever was ever will be. Suzanne is the only field is the only in this last probably this last 1213 months I've have through zoom calls and actually being in prison a little bit have gotten to know Jen shagged a lot better. And I just, I could go on and on about how magical I think she is.

Susan Olesek: 2:24:45

And Jennifer and Geneva and

Clay Tumey: 2:24:49

there's so many people that it's it's I feel, I feel that it's a risk to start naming them yeah for the chance to mess somebody out. It is and even you You know, so that to me, it's it's really cool to be here in the future and to see the things that we were worried about back then the things that we were the the facts that we base those fears on were true, like you are the only one there is. But what isn't true is that we thought that you were the only one who could do it. And, you know, you mentioned GTA, I was really involved with GTA. And I've seen the folks who came through that. And I'm so confident in what has come from that what will continue to come from that as folks start to apprentice and go in, and I have so much confidence, and in that group, and other groups as well, but it's really like, there's some real rock stars in there. And I'm not typically one I don't get accused a whole lot of

Susan Olesek: 2:25:55

optimistic about as often as I get accused of being passive.

Clay Tumey: 2:25:59

And also, I don't, I don't just try to, I don't just say things just so somebody will feel cool about it. Like I genuinely believe that there's some real badass is in that group. And it's amazing. It's, it's just amazing to see how things are totally scalable. And the quality doesn't seem to suffer from it.

Susan Olesek: 2:26:20

It's so nice to see you happy to be so wrong. Like

Clay Tumey: 2:26:25

that's the thing. And I'll tell you, you know, five gets those little subtle jabs every now and then. And the reality is, it's not about being right. It's about knowing what's right. And so to me, I'm happy to it's not that I'm happy to be wrong, but I'm happy to learn. And being wrong usually precedes learning. And so that, to me, is what's cool. Like, I wish I nailed everything perfectly 11 years ago, and all the things that would happen and could happen. Well,

Susan Olesek: 2:26:49

for the record you did you cut out and said yes. Right, the power of that. And that's a big part of why it did go the way it did.

Clay Tumey: 2:26:58

That's been really nice to see. And, and I I totally believe I believe in it more than more than I ever have. This is good shit going on. And I just I love it's cool to be a part of and for the past year, in particular, for me also what it's been like, because this is you know, I haven't this has been my only source of income for, you know, a year and a half ish now I you know, and it's been really cool being reconnected to, to you know, I don't have a job to get in the way for now. And it's been cool. I love I love that my whole life revolves around. You know, first is being a dad, like, no offense, but that's always gonna be first. We need to get to you just get one song per episode, we got to that's how long we went. We got one yesterday when we recorded the first time, we just but but parenthood is always priority. Number one for me. And everything about being a dad, and you know, the work that we do that I get to do with EPB. It all works together. And so it's it's kind of it's It's heavenly, I think I would say so it's been really cool. And I think I think your 12 Looks quite promising. Yeah, I think I love this push the phrases back to basics. And I don't know if that's the actual thing that we call it or whatever, that's just okay. So that I think really centering our efforts, you know, on the, the the folks who are, who are still literally physically locked up and in prison is our middle name. Like all the things that come with that, I think is that that's the play. I think that's, that's, I think that's where we were we know, that's where we started. And I think that's a good idea. And public programming is still cool. Like, I'm still down with that, but the end user being the person on the inside who's incarcerated. I love how much focus is there. I love I love that. I think that's I think that's where people are hurt hurting the most most. And I also genuinely believe that people who are in prison right now have the most power to change. And not just themselves, but when they get out, you know, like when I got out of prison, like the people around me knew some shit was different, you know, and, and I made impact. And I've read that those folks who are on the inside get out make an impact. And they send ripples, right leg ones

Rick Olesek: 2:29:21

and those ripples when they come they just you can they can change lots of things. And then once you start getting multiple ripples, and they start getting amplified can be a Washington that stuff. We are the ripple we are

Clay Tumey: 2:29:37

we are the ripple. This wasn't an anniversary episode. That would probably be the title of the episode. We are the ripple.

Rick Olesek: 2:29:43

And that was my biggest I might

Clay Tumey: 2:29:45

think this is a I think there's a fair place to stop. And unless there's anything that you'd like to cover and you're giving me a head check.

Susan Olesek: 2:29:54

The joy. Yeah,

Clay Tumey: 2:29:56

that's been a joy joy, as Tradition holds. I don't I don't end the episode with a Question I just leave space for the final words, whatever they'll have on your mind or on your heart.

Susan Olesek: 2:30:06

Up, we always have that closing tradition. When we close a call out to me. I just have that one word and I'm taking

Rick Olesek: 2:30:12

ripple. Yeah, I think I think that I will. I will use serve one of Susan's words that she's been saying the last month or so which is just onward.

Clay Tumey: 2:30:28

All right, my word is gratitude. Thank you. That is the end of this season and until the next onward, fist bumps in the road. For more information about EPP, please visit Enneagram prison project.org We appreciate your time and attention today. Stay tuned for future episodes of the podcast which you can expect on the first Tuesday of every month as we continue to tell the story of the Enneagram Prison Project.