Clay Tumey: 0:12

Hi, my name is Clay and this is the Enneagram Prison Project podcast. In this episode, I sit down with two very special guests, Mike and Suzanne, from Minnesota. You may recognize Suzanne, she is an EPP guide. She has been on previous episodes of the podcast. And she likes to make special appearances while recording episodes with other people on the podcast. It's kind of a running joke that we have. And her and her husband Mike happened to be in Southern California. Earlier this year, when we were programming in San Diego, they were able to attend graduation that day. And this was also Mike's first time going into prison. So we talked about that. And as per usual, just kind of let the conversation naturally go wherever it wanted to go. A quick side note, by the way, just so you know, at the very beginning of this, you will hear from executive director of Enneagram Prison Project, Rick Olesek. And he called while we were checking levels and getting all the mic stuff and the tech side of things set up to record this podcast, he he called my phone and I thought, hey, why not just say hi to him and chat with him. And I think it's fun. It's real quick. It's real brief. So it doesn't go on for too long. And I thought it would be a fun place to start. So I asked him if we could use it. He said yes, of course. And so that's where we're going to start with this episode. And I hope you enjoy it. We're glad you're here. Thanks for listening. This is the Enneagram Prison Project podcast.

Unknown: 1:58

Mike, have you been in prison before? Nope. That was my very first time. Wow, what? You know, that question came even on the drive there. But I feel like I've been there many times just sitting with Suzanne and just in the house during Halloween teaching. So I have that experience of walking through the yard and going through the Sallyport. And all of that there was not even any anxiety or was even worried about it. And I have part of me will talk about the podcast is is I changed so much as a young kid going, you know, prisons are for punishment, if you do the time do the crime. But, you know, this empathy of our own challenges and we're all human. And in this turn of the stories, I mean, Suzanne totally does HIPAA compliance with with the bios, but I get the gist of the bios of just I would be in their same boat or I wouldn't I would have duplicated the same experience. So the empathy is me today. It was just wow, it just validated. I mean, all these guys would be the best to hang out with and in, you know, they're stuck for a while. So

Clay Tumey: 3:00

yeah, for a long while. Yes. You're getting all the good podcast before I do, Rick.

Unknown: 3:05

Alright, sorry.

Clay Tumey: 3:08

Analysis sounds good. Hold on.

Unknown: 3:09

Hey. Hi, Suzanne. How are you? Hi.

Clay Tumey: 3:15

Rick, if you got an hour to burn we can do. All four of us can do the podcast together. No, thank you. That's funny.

Unknown: 3:26

All right. We'll talk more later, okay. All right. Suzanne Myrick here tomorrow.

Susanne Gawreluk: 3:34

All right. My name is Suzanne. I usually jump in on a podcast and kind of ruin the moment for someone else. But tonight, it's me starting out. I am a guide with EPP and I help with some faculty things. And I had the pleasure to go on vacation. And part of that included joining the graduating class at our JD and my partner in life is with us, and I've been with EPP since 2017 So I just thought this is an amazing opportunity to have someone important into my life. Come and share the moment and see what this EPP magic is all about.

Clay Tumey: 4:16

And if you think it's relevant to share what is your Enneagram type,

Susanne Gawreluk: 4:19

my Enneagram type is for Okey dokey.

Unknown: 4:23

Hello, my name is Mike I'm Suzanne's husband. And Suzanne's Enneagram journey has been really part of my Enneagram journey. If she came on board and say the EPP environment in 2017, I was right there with through her decision and her experiences of meeting everyone and starting her journey with that because I had been involved with the Enneagram prior to classes and in Minnesota we have a chapter and was dragged into there but I think I went willingly I think Enneagram was very fascinating. It's part of our journey in life. And Suzanne had a background with Carolyn mesas archetypes which very is similar in nature of why people do things the way they do. And a lot of it was based say maybe on a woman's perspective. But that was very complicated. And then it was always I was, there's got to be an easier way to understand all of this. And the Enneagram really kind of flowed for me as a nice journey and made sense of where these nine types and they were all part of it. We all have tendencies. And being my background I'll just share is I am a telecommunications network engineer and had been my career. So I can talk in terms of operating systems. So I was very fascinated with the human operating system. And to me, this is a way to say, How can I understand my operating system because it's the way I'm wired. It's the way I do things. So for me, it was just a natural element. So when Suzanne got involved with EPP, I am guilty of my voyeurism of just an observation. I am a five. Yeah. So her. Basically I've heard her teach classes, I've heard her do her meetings, and not so much desisted. eavesdrop, but it's just fascinating. Just all the discussions that people she's met with the country, she's been to where then I love it when she travels, because then I can travel to kind of meet her somewhere. But So that's been my journey. And and that's what's got us here today.

Clay Tumey: 6:12

And you have a perspective like that. I would say most but actually, all of us don't have because we're very familiar with Suzanne, we see her on the screens. We see her in person, like a lot of us know that side. And I think only you might know exactly how much work she puts in to ebp. And you care to take what's what's a typical day look like from your vantage point. Watching Suzanne, I guess is sunup to sundown, what it feels like and maybe even more than that. Or maybe I'm wrong, I don't know, you tell me?

Unknown: 6:48

Well, I'm going to be guilty. Because I'm an enabler. From an effect point, I really believe in the mantra or the mission of the Enneagram Prison Project. So I'm actually rooting for the success of the program. I see the valuable work gets done. I've seen the valuable work the Enneagram has done for our relationship. I'm in my head type, and I do live in my head. And she's definitely being a for the heart type. And it's always there. But Suzanne hurt just to answer your original question. And what's the day to day with it is I will start up and there'll be though, she'll do some groundings, which is very appropriate for the Enneagram Prison Project environment. And then there'll be a meeting or two for an hour or two. And then we'll hook up for maybe a quick boiled egg or breakfast or talk cup cup of coffee. And she's running to a new and meeting noon to two. And then we'll have a half hour discussion of now effects Egyptian time. What time is it in Minnesota? And how do the time modules because that's a big challenge.

Clay Tumey: 7:44

How often is it Minnesota time? Let's be honest, not very often. It's usually either West Coast or Australia or something like that. So we

Unknown: 7:52

saw the afternoon goes to that. And then we have some meetings at night. But she loves it. And I support that. So but it's a way to stay connected with humanity. Right now. I'm working from home. We don't get out much. But we feel I feel connected to the world through a through just her workings. And

Clay Tumey: 8:13

it's nice. I mean, speaking of getting out much. I mean, I haven't said this yet, I should probably set the table and say that we're in Southern California in San Diego. And I know why I'm here. I'm here to talk about RJ Donovan. We went to prison two weeks ago and again this this week. And what the hell are y'all doing in town? Because you didn't you weren't you're not here in a in a professional, whatever you want to call it. Right?

Susanne Gawreluk: 8:39

It's It's vacation. And so, um, yeah, we've just needed a break. We live in Minnesota. It's a little chilly there a lot more snow there than here. And so we thought we'd come in enjoy the beach. And you know, then I'd say, Hey, Dana, I want to work a little bit on some curriculum, and then it was four hours later, and it's like, oh, geez, but yeah, you know, you bring your love wherever you go. And Laura lives here. And I knew this class was graduating and she's like, do you want to come into graduation? I'm like, Yes, that is like the highlight of the vacation and to be able to bring my again because I don't know that most of our our people that support us in our lives, get to see the inside of really what we do. We can talk about it afterwards. And to sit in the room today, just for me is always humbling and gives me faith for humanity and potential like we all have potential and to have my partner to get to sit in the room with the graduates and hear their retrospective on what they experienced is it is magic. Yeah,

Unknown: 9:53

I agree. And it's I want to I want to know a lot about your experience today and what you thought and I am looking at a piece of paper I want notes on the paper to the notes that you have from today. But to be honest, more than anything I want to know Mike, what was this was your first time going into prison? Right? Correct. And you've heard about it, you know, you said, you've you've had this, you felt like you've been there even without being there and all that stuff, but walking through the gates. And for those who've never been there, there's a few gates that you walk through. First of all, getting clear to get in is a pain in the ass in the first place. So it doesn't make no mistake, or at least it is for ex cons. I don't know about for those who have never been to prison. Or at least I'm assuming you've never gone. I was disappointed. We didn't get searched on the way through. You want to go down? Yes, I was prepared for that. I know the secret on that. By the way, if you want to get patted down literally anywhere at the airport tomorrow, if you want TSA to check extra thoroughly. I know how

Clay Tumey: 10:44

you can borrow my personal ID from when I was in Texas. But I always keep that. Have you ever seen that? No. Yeah, I keep that with my passport. And my passport obviously being right here. That's

Susanne Gawreluk: 10:55

Texas offender. Clay Tumey. Yep. This is your ID

Clay Tumey: 11:00

that was my ID in prison. That's that is the the you know, I can travel with that. I could take that through TSA and that would ever be acceptable. Who knew I explained how handsome that fellow is in that picture right there. Good.

Unknown: 11:13

grabbable. Makeover one on one.

Clay Tumey: 11:16

There's a reason that this is a podcast and not a video. So disappointed that you didn't get the pat down. I get that makes sense. We walk through a few gates and then we're walking through the yard. Walk me through your experience today. First time being in prison?

Unknown: 11:29

Well, I expected there'd be the log jam just entering through in the time and then staring at your ID and that's, that's like a TSA experience. But that is a good question to ask. Because as soon as the security door open, and we got out to the yard. I didn't know how I'd react to that. But it was a very expansive yard. So there was people spread out all over. So as we begin the walk to the classroom into that section, I was looking around, but just it seemed like a very friendly place. I never felt any, I usually can feel it. I am a head type. But I do have some guttural feeling or instincts when you're in an environment that feels dark or whatever. But I didn't feel that. And I think that was mostly to the expansiveness of our JDS environment, versus I was in a really busy yard. But that after walking through there and going, it's pretty it's pretty calm. And then we once we got to the building, then it seemed like a very relaxed environment. So from there was just a matter of just meeting the students. And yeah, going from there.

Clay Tumey: 12:28

And by the building, the mental health building is where we held classes this week, and a couple weeks ago, as well, where we hold most of our classes actually. And we go in there, we set the chairs up, we do our thing, and then we wait for the folks to come in. What did you experience if anything, you when when the we say residents, we say participants, to the to the folks who don't know, we're talking about people who were locked up inmates what what was the experience of having them just gradually come in and introduce themselves and sit down and stuff like that.

Unknown: 13:00

I was excited to meet him. And Excel, I've had a physical change in my attitude I would have if this would have happened five years ago with I just would have Suzanne just joined EPP and as I go with her to a to a yard or a prison and experience that I would really have had high anxiety and it would have freaked out. But again, I've heard so many stories of successful classes and in, in people with background and maybe violent past now how they just, this has changed their life. So I've it's really changed the color of my rose colored glasses or to where they are either open up or darkening up. But I've I've really changed my view to really be empathetic to people. And they're just people that have the same journeys and issues that I have in just so I'm just rooting for them just to find peace. Because, you know, I'll talk back to I mean, a common thing that this is biography that a lot of these classes have in the right your childhood and it's just in I had a very what we call the very peaceful middle class in southern Minnesota. But I still there was still conflict in my family, there was still these angst and there's still these demons that I've been chasing all my life and they affected me greatly. So I for some reason, I just feel very empathetic and was just excited to meet them. And they met my expectations. So they were tall, short, big and loud and quiet. There was just a really a mix of any any normal group that you'd come across.

Clay Tumey: 14:27

So the stereotypical prison inmate big ask tough guy that you'd be scared of that hold does that hold true or not so much today?

Unknown: 14:35

It was the farthest from that had vision. A big scary. There was a lot of vulnerability people talking about their vulnerability. Yeah. And that immediately lowers the defenses or any predisposed dispositions.

Clay Tumey: 14:50

You said a phrase earlier it's one of my all time in your quoting past people and all this stuff. So what your phrase but it's a phrase, it's one of my all time biggest triggers I think and the way that I hear most often is, if you can't do the time, don't do the crime. What what does that phrase mean to you now versus what it might have meant?

Unknown: 15:12

In the past? I will repeat my bias growing up as a kid, is that right? There's right there's wrong. If you do something, a crime, whether it's non violent or violent, is you've done it, and you need, you need to be punished or do the time. And that and that was, I mean, that that was kind of just, there's right and there's wrong, that it's black, and it's white. But over time in my mom was very much a loving, I mean, often use the term liberal but very lightened, and that aromas as people have issues for the society may cause problems, or the neighborhood may cause that. And it's like, oh, okay, I mean, I really didn't think about it until I started getting involved the environment of the Enneagram Prison Project, and start doing my own work. And when you start looking at wow, I mean, we are all flawed, and we are all beautiful at the same time. So it's enabled me to just, I've really changed my mindset, there is things that you definitely need that are right and wrong, there's definitely things that need to be time sent. Spent. But you know, I've gone away from just anything and everything to where if that's non violent, or drug related, it just changed me who I'm pretty conservative person just to really, again, the term empathy, not just sympathy, like, Oh, it's too bad. So sad. But it was really like, wow, I mean, I could really if I was in their situation, or if I had a rough childhood, where people didn't care about me, or how would I react. And I would probably have reacted pretty much what they've all done with a lot of pain. And the more you've learned that, if you're in pain, you'll treat other people in pain, so. So it's just the empathy would be the biggest that just changed my world of the way to look at people is it's the beginning back to Susanne and I's relationship of just the Enneagram itself. There are just ways were wired, and we're different. So I can't judge somebody just on their behavior. It's really going that extra mile understanding the whys that does matter.

Clay Tumey: 17:09

I wrote a paper when I was, I think, 15, maybe 16. It was one of my years in the ninth grade, make all kinds of run together. There was a few of them there. I wrote a paper about about crime, and what we should deal with criminals. And in my mid teenage brain, I literally said if you if you can't follow the rules out here, and if you can't learn how to function the way everybody else does, I was pretty severe with my opinions on that. I thought that not only should people go away, but it was like, you know, California has the three strikes, you're out. I was more of a one striker. Like if you just if you can't be out here, then farewell. You don't you don't get to come back. And it's so bizarre and bizarre is two nights. It's embarrassing, honestly, to read, like the way that I used to think about things because it's so, so wrong, first of all, and it's just kind of silly, like the lack of, of the way I say it, the lack of give a shit about other people that I had. And that's a bummer. It's a bummer. I'm glad I'm not like that. Now. It's in it's ironic that I became the person that I was writing about and how I didn't deserve to be around and all that stuff, which is my own junk that I had to work through. So I don't know. What are you thinking about over there?

Susanne Gawreluk: 18:27

I just was listening to Mike and when we got to the Sallyport and we're moving through i I don't what is it? Like when we got in the yard? I just feel a relaxation within myself. And it's like, Alright, here we are. And I'm so excited to get in the room and hear like the magic like hear the transformation. How did this program affect these individuals and knowing that Laura was running this class, I know her heart and how she holds this program and to get to sit in witness her do her work magic, do her work and hear from the students I kind of didn't forget that you were there like I started was like walking way ahead and then we're going to use with Come on, let's go come on, get up here. And then getting in the classroom to when the students were coming in the room I shaking their hands and I mean, they allowed us to enter into their last day of their course that sacred space and and that takes I don't know, beautiful part of humanity to let people come into your space and then be vulnerable with us being in the room too. So just shaking them and thanking shaking their hands and thanking them for letting us be in the room with them. And I was like, Well, you have Mike is here. Like where is he? Where is he sitting? What's he doing? Is he you know, backed up against the wall? Is he sitting in his chair? Where is he? So I can lose myself in what I have Seen and had the privilege to be part of, in these years with EPP and, and there at all was laid out in front of us and to have both you clay and Alex in the room for the men. I mean, that is the foundation of what Enneagram Prison Project is built on is, we are all human, we do good things, bad things, ugly things, beautiful things. And it's all welcomed, and we can heal. And they share that in the most beautiful ways. So I just felt really humbled and privileged to get to be part of that.

Clay Tumey: 20:37

There were five of us walking in together, you and Laura are together. And then Alex, Mike and I were a little little back, walking a little slower. And I kept I had to fight the urge, because I want to tell you like, Oh, look at this mural, look at this painting, look at this thing that you probably didn't expect. And, and you know, the dog over here and this in the, you know, the soccer ball and all this. And I did it a couple times. But for the most part, I'm thinking just play just shut the fuck up. Because I know, in my shoes, that's what I don't want some I want to take it in myself. And so I hope I did that somewhat well, and even in the class with you talking about the sacred space, and, you know, allowing us in and and we've been there for most for all their classes. So it's I mean, I'm already there. But tell me if this is accurate, because the way that I experienced today with with two new faces in the room, is it didn't to me, it didn't so much seemed like they permitted you or allowed you or anything like that. But it was like a welcoming, like a cool, come on in that. Do you feel that? Or did you feel that?

Susanne Gawreluk: 21:42

I think that comes with like when I'm in that space, I'm Type Four withdrawal type. So I would have been happy to sit in a chair and push back. And I don't want to miss the juice, I want to be part of the healing, I want to weigh in and hear what they have to say make their space stay as safe of it as it was before be part of that container. And so I'm sitting and listening to fellow Type Four talk in the class and I could finish their sentence, I can hear what's coming next out of them. And that's magic. That's amazing that this tool works that way.

Clay Tumey: 22:23

And to describe to the listener, the room size, I would say is roughly like 10 feet by 20 feet, maybe 1520 feet. And so there's 20, maybe 21 or 22 of us in there. And our chairs are arranged in the circle to outline the perimeter of the room. So we're sitting shoulder to shoulder and there's no, really there's no front of the room, there's no back of the room we're sitting next to you. And the way that we the way that we set the seats up. It's not the five of us sitting in together, we're just kind of, we're just kind of randomly sitting out to, to really, to demonstrate that we are equal, we're all together. And so you're literally sitting shoulder to shoulder with folks doing time that you've never met before,

Susanne Gawreluk: 23:06

right and coming into the class, one of the first things we do is ask everyone to ground ourselves and close your eyes. Okay, come on into a room of prisoners that you don't know you've never met. And now close your eyes. And both times when we did our grounding at the beginning. And then back after our break both men on my side, sitting to the left and to the right of me. We were breathing in unison, like we're that close together, our shoulders were breathing in and out touching just lightly. And we're all in this human soup together. And that's beautiful. Doesn't matter what we did one time in our life or two or three times in our life that God is in that room. It's at do you want to sit down and wake up to who we are to who we can be? Whether that can be day is with a life sentence? Or? Maybe not. I know the men were so excited to share with us that two of the gentlemen that had been in previous classes, have their life sentences commuted. And they are out there free. Yeah. And I hope to have them over

Clay Tumey: 24:19

here actually, there you go. Know where they are.

Susanne Gawreluk: 24:23

And what a beautiful celebration, because everyone in the room could be my neighbor. And if they are and they're taking time to be out of society. How can we help that be? moment in time of learning instead of sitting? And what? No, grow? Wake up? Learn? We're, we all have that potential.

Clay Tumey: 24:48

I'm gonna brag on you right now. Because when you said that word neighbor it reminded me of something you said today. That was just one of the coolest damn things I've ever heard when you're when you were given a bit of towards the end the day After graduation, all this stuff, and I don't remember all of what you said, but what I definitely remember, as you saying is that I hope you can be my neighbor one day. And I thought holy, and it's so believable. I 100% believe that she meant that not just as a figure of speech, but that you'd be down for that.

Susanne Gawreluk: 25:15

Absolutely. Yeah, like, I mean, with the Enneagram we're all in a prison of our own making. You hear it all the time when you're around EPP people. And it, it is so true. And one of the students today was sharing how, you know, been through really hard times. And this class really has woken me up to see that I have something to offer and each one in their own way did share that from their own type structure. And the chief of mental health was in the room, other people were in the room and, and I saw tears in her eyes as the men came up and, you know, had their hands they were, you know, shook their hands. And Laura shared her beautiful appreciation for what that person brought into the classroom.

Clay Tumey: 26:06

She had something to say about every single person. And I think that might have been what, what brought tears and leave names out. But with the chief of mental health there, too, that's got to be unusual to see a program come in. And for somebody like Florida to hand out certificates and give very specific individual feedback, gratitude, appreciation, and all that. And it was not cookie cutter it it was specific to that person's soul. And I didn't see her I didn't see the chief mental health tearing up. I wasn't in the right position for it. But was that when she was doing that? Yeah, that's good. She here's the worst of the worst. Like the stories of those dudes doing time there. She's heard. She's heard some pretty nasty stuff. And so for something like that to move her pretty gnarly,

Susanne Gawreluk: 26:55

it's that speaks to the work and it speaks to how EPP. We come in to share a program but we're guides. We're not teachers, or guiding we're on the path together. And it's today tomorrow, always. I mean, Mike introduced me and said, What did you say, Huh?

Unknown: 27:18

Oh, that one was asleep on the cutting table. If I may interject my experience when I'm walking in the room? And is just are they going to have glassy eyed? Am I going to be treated like an outsider? Or why what right do you have to be in our space? I know this intimate spaces. You know, this is a holding tank of everyone, you know, talking all week and sharing their experiences, but they all smiled at me tall, Big Short, then they're all welcoming. And in anyone sitting next to me we exchanged names and, and hello and, and I felt very, very welcoming. Then Alex, the CO guide here of the class along with clay was so kind to do the grounding, thinking of frozen ice because I had met Alex a few years ago and invited him to come back ice fishing and do some ice fishing with him to drill a hole and an awesome fish out so so that was a very Thank you Alex, for that if you listen to this, that meant a lot to me. So So from there on, I was I was in a happy place among people that I felt comfortable with pretty easy to forget you're in prison hidden. Yes. And it was just it was just another class and other Enneagram sharing of ideas and talking types. But I did have a chance to say impacted by Suzanne and myself relationship being husband and wife. You know, if you have somebody do things or do something irritating, you know, you may think, Oh, they're just doing that to be mean to you. I use the term, asshole. Yeah. They could get realistic, good real term or whatever. But you can get upset with people, if you really don't understand they're motivated, they could be trying something really kind to you. And this is a far fetched, but it's just again, why would I love being in an environment that I love. The underground prison work is just, I think and Frankel's book of Man's Search for Meaning. But he talked about a guard that kept putting beetles in in a guy's throat, shoving it down his throat and in the intent there was to keep them alive. It wasn't to persecute them. So again, it's the intent. So the Enneagram has helped me in our marriage just just to say, yeah, it came from her heart. So I mean, that's pretty authentic to begin with. But it she's not, it's not aimed at me. It's her type. And as my journey is to be very loving and accepting that and say, and we've talked about that breathe and what's going on with you, dear and to help that but so let's make a long story short is I probably said too many things on that opening line or whatever.

Clay Tumey: 29:44

I thought it was perfect. It is so it's so easy to I mean, I we've hung out. I've stayed at your I mean, we've met and I've literally stayed at your house. So I already know you but even if I didn't that introduction, if you're so damn likable, already and in that moment is It's just it's even more so in the, by the way, for case this didn't come across, clearly, the entire room erupted in laughter. When you said that, and it was, and you didn't really back down on it either, like it was it was, you know, it was there were some funny comments made, but it was, I love it. I wish I was recording. They don't let me take mics on the inside. So

Susanne Gawreluk: 30:23

I will just share exactly what was said. So it's on my record.

Clay Tumey: 30:29

The B button reading

Susanne Gawreluk: 30:33

something along the lines of, you know, I'm thinking something endearing, is going to come out here.

Clay Tumey: 30:40

Kind of was honestly,

Susanne Gawreluk: 30:42

from the standpoint of Suzanne, and I have, you know, been using the Enneagram. We've been together for many years. And, you know, sometimes she can come on process an asshole. And that's when the laughing started. And but that doesn't mean that. And then I gave him the luck, the luck. And he said, and it will be a cold ride home after that. But it will not be

Unknown: 31:10

it's that's honestly anything for a laugh.

Clay Tumey: 31:14

Definitely gets a laugh and that it's those moments are so appropriate. And so needed. In my opinion, at least, you know, I thought it was I thought it was great. We got to see a couple panels today there was there was a little bit left in the going through the types in and I think Type Six and Type Seven were left for today. So So you got to see a panel on the inside, which most folks don't ever get to see. And we there's a lot of stuff that happens on Zoom. There's a lot of stuff with the ambassadors, all that stuff. And I know you've probably seen a few panels maybe even done a few panels on in size. But Mike I'm actually curious what what was it like watching a panel of sixes or and or sevens like answer questions about their type and how it relates to their childhood and all that stuff? What What was that experience, like, if anything,

Unknown: 32:07

as I watch the both with a sixth and the seventh panel, but I've actually been through panels before from an observer when I spent the year where every month we go through one type, and then sit on a long panel with that. So I was experienced with the background, I spent most of my time actually because I liked the I liked the guys that were part of the group and I was rooting for them to identify in, you know, in full disclosure, I could find someone that was in doubt of their type and their confidence to speak of their true feelings. But you're you're hoping that they can resonate and then get that out. So I was more of a I was just from a cheering it on because I was rooting for them that they found their home or in their type. And and one thing I would have loved to bid on a five panel because it is fun to be around people that are your type and to hear about it. And you just need to hear that once in a while. You're not alone out there. So it had been fun to be able to fill a couple of fives along with clay, who is to be on a panel someday with that. Yeah, I think panels are awesome. I mean, that's truly it's truly where you get to think that's really puts it into action behaviors and the environments that you're in and how you reason react to that, especially with the seven was a very amazing discussion today. Yeah. And one of the one of the participants really took that that forum and was able to really express themselves. And I think that was very therapeutic for that person. Yeah,

Clay Tumey: 33:28

I agree. And I don't mind speaking about a little bit more specifically the one of the staffer who was in the room with us. We had a staffer. And they, they, they, they were kind of there to help like with the technical side of things and with videos. And if we needed anything they could help us. But the first day of class, the that staffer didn't decide they're invited to be a part of the class. Like if you're here, you can be in the class. And they they said, Well, I don't want to intrude on the the residents experience. So leave it up to the to the residents to decide that. And I think that the staffer was hoping that they would say no, we don't want you so that the person could sit out. And the opposite happens. Oh, hell yeah. And because like you say, there, it's a welcoming environment more than more than I could really describe. You just have to experience it really to know how welcoming that room is. And so they told the staffer, of course, yeah, definitely. And so there was a little bit of reluctance. And there was there was some build up, which I'm assuming that's what you're talking about. Yeah. And so up till today, and they they are a Type Seven, and they were on panel today. And it was lively. There was a lot of there was there was there was it was well seven often is lively anyways, but our our staffer was was saying some very specific things in that environment. Like I know they were saying, I paraphrase here but I get Sit on a lot. And I just take it, I take it and I take it. And of course, that's part of the demo with seven. Right. And, and just going through the details of what that experience is like, was pretty eye opening. And I actually think that some of the some of the folks who were incarcerated in that in that room, I think, I think some of them didn't realize that that's what that staffer experiences. And there were some reactions to like, Man, this that shouldn't happen. Not from this group, one of one of the guys actually said that. I didn't know that that makes that makes my blood boil. Yeah. And that didn't happen. Yeah. From anybody in this group.

Unknown: 35:37

Yeah, that's the total take away. Was that the same she's able to share? And that was therapeutic for her. But it was very apropos to use a cranky term. But that was really indicative or indicative of a seven. Exactly, just to rephrase what's happening to you, because you want to rephrase it, not to really to be paying in pain. Yeah. But my favorite thing was, I really got excited about her sharing it. But as you say, clay in the room were to a person that's unacceptable. The reaction they could feel they were they had a gut punch going, Wow, that is not cool. Yeah. And they felt for total empathy. And felt Wow, walking in her shoes. So that was a good chance to turn the table on. On a person there that normally is hands off, or emotionally unavailable in that, but I felt that connection there. I think her life will be different. I agree here on out and that yard and those people, there'll be a respect, kindness. Yeah.

Clay Tumey: 36:37

Yeah. And again, it's one of those things that you don't it's not something you'd see in a Hollywood movie. It's not something you would expect about prison life, where the inmates go, Hey, what the fuck? Are you serious like us? And and, by the way, her title there is they, they have a bunch of recreational therapists, they literally play to play therapy, which is amazing, by the way, and it hurts even more to think like you're here to, to, first of all, be a therapist, but also just kind of do it in a playful way. And that's how people treat you like No, hell no. Yeah.

Susanne Gawreluk: 37:14

I really appreciated in my experience in doing the panels on the inside, while safe from the public side, usually public panels with Type Seven are the more stereotype like, yes, we are about the freedom and the joy. And let's have fun and here and there and everywhere. And yeah, we've heard that all before. Okay, so let's, let's go a little bit underneath that. And often, the Type Seven panels are really somber. Like, no, I have the pain, but the reframe is how I get through it. And so it was just so poignant to listen to her share the shit she takes, day after day after day, and how, and I can reframe it, and I can and it's like, man, God bless you that you have that skill for yourself. Because for most of us, that is traumatizing, for all of us. Actually, that is traumatizing. And so for her to have the freedom and the safety in that room, to share her actual experience not have to be the therapist hat. That was that's the humanity that makes what EPP does special in that Laura was able to hold the whole group in the safety of the container to allow her to have that freedom to have the men receiver that are also of that type. And Laura brilliantly could turn to the Romans, can you hear what she is saying here. And like you said, it was like a gut punch. We all could feel it from her. And that that's the sacred work. So it really makes getting to come inside and do the work inside ourselves inside a prison. Like that is where the work is. And that was an epic thing to get to see. Because that's not normal. anywhere on campus. Yeah. And I will say that Sterling prison does have staff that has taken their two first classes that it was lucky to be part of. And the men would share that having learned the Enneagram they now don't see the arrows and CEOs and people on staff as the assholes that just tell them what to do and where to go do it. But that they are people and so when it was COVID and there was locked down and staff were coming in to have to work a 12 hour shift and then being told at the end of the their 12 hour shift now you're on a 16 hour shift. And they the students were saying sharing, I felt horrible for them that their family was expecting them to be home after 12 hours, and now they're there for 16 hours. That's that's the leveling of the playing field of us being human beings. Does it matter where you're living? Does it matter matter where you've been? Yep. To one point it does. And to another point, no, it actually doesn't, if we all can just be human and learn and grow from each other. So I just like a shout out to the minute Sterling, they've done some really deep, beautiful work. And it's not only heal healing each other, but it's healing a culture that can be pretty violent, dangerous, unsafe, and giving there at least a field of some hope within that environment. I want to be part of something like that. Yeah,

Unknown: 40:46

for sure. I hope I get to come back. We have quite a few more programs here that we're going to be doing this year. And I hope I get picked. Because I love it. I love it here. I love the guys here. And I don't tell everybody that it's I believe in folks, I tell them that I'm hoping for them the best and all that stuff. I really do love the guys here. We'll wrap up soon. This is about how long it takes for 45 ish minutes to go by.

Clay Tumey: 41:11

That doesn't take that long. Any anything? Anything you want to include, we're not limited on time, by the way, I got 40 Something hours I can record so I don't want to make it seem like I'm wrapping it up if you don't want to put anything from the day that I didn't ask about or that you'd like to share or anything like that.

Unknown: 41:30

For me, Mike personally, it was a very wonderful experience. You know, I've had a chance to have a chance to really sit back and and think about it being a head type because that's what you do. Because I'll sit back and but yeah, I mean the day was just seemed like another day if Suzanne at work and I just haven't the chance just to just to be part of it. So but again, the sharing the kindness of of everybody in the room. And just the environment here at our JD was just spectacularly welcoming and nice. So it was not scary for me. And I maybe in the next experience may be scary depending on if there's a fight in the yard and all heck, you know, in a lockdown and Rob, but that was the farthest thing. And I guess that was my biggest surprise was how there was no drama, there was nothing. But just again, it's back to the we're all people we're doing our work and we're trying to figure out just what the heck we are.

Clay Tumey: 42:28

You mentioned that you just reminded me of something that happened last year about that maybe that maybe it'll be scary. Maybe there'll be a fight or something like that. Last year when we were here there was a fight. And it wasn't in our room. It was It wasn't a fight that we saw. But we saw it dude stumble out of one of the units bleeding, you'd obviously been in a fight. He's kind of stumbling perhaps a little bit concussed. And I recognize that immediately just because you do when you've seen it. And the guys that were here with us, I was impressed by how scared they weren't. They went immediately to that. Oh my god, are you okay? And almost like breaking roles that some things you're not supposed to do, such as offer first aid to an inmate when you're not a staffer? And so it was actually pretty impressed by how how that fear wasn't there for for a lot of folks, and maybe it would be for somebody else? I don't know. It's not my place to say but you saying that made me it was a full flashback?

Unknown: 43:19

I will I will totally admit that. It's probably my naivety of being outside and not being incarcerated before. But just watching Hollywood movies I'll be I'll be dead serious is that you expect angst among when I was walking through the yard? I'd look at groups of people that were mad at each other or looking to get the stain why they didn't we're not gonna notice stain dummies outside of curiosity. Are there some people walking through the yard

Clay Tumey: 43:42

to get any random hellos from anybody? Yes.

Unknown: 43:45

But I was but that's the biggest takeaway is they seem friendly. They're friendly with each other like there were buddies at college at school that could be at a work partner in your corporate facility but there was camaraderie there there are people interacting again it was racial age, cultural differences there interact everyone is interacting and it's like wow, that just blew me away how much how peaceful this environment was and I don't know whether that is totally just having to be that minute that day or were my my mindset coming in and piece was but that was really mind blowing for me is like how beautiful it was of an environment versus tents looking over your shoulder or feeling like you're under microscope so that was my big takeaway of wow this this is not Hollywood this Yeah, there are actually people that that are in confined but are really civil and nice to each other. So my

Clay Tumey: 44:42

favorite phrase and all that is they're actually people and which is something I think the world tries to undo. And in the dehumanization and all that stuff is after all the bullshit after all the stuff that folks want to say think push all that stuff. Don't get me wrong. There are some rock and roll yards. There are some places that we couldn't do what we did today. So I'm not pretending that that's not a thing. But by and large, this is the experience that most folks have. And shocker, they're actually people. I love it. Thanks for sharing that.

Unknown: 45:14

You're welcome.

Susanne Gawreluk: 45:16

About you. I guess I just want to share that there was just a lot of beautiful things at the end of the day, and one person said, my ultimate epiphany today was to embrace my identity, and that I am worthy. Like, oh, how does that not just make you squish your heart up? Right? And just say, Huh, I hear you and clay, you said to the man, you know, I believe in you. And I'm, I'm going to hope with you. So, having ambassadors in the room from EPP to speak, the lived experience, I've been inside and now I'm out. And you too, can have this freedom some day is game changer for a class to have ambassadors inside with us. And just spending the last half hour of the class having you talk to them about what it is to be an ambassador and envisioning what could be and who knows what can be at RJ D. Maybe that will be a training ground for us. To have men on the inside become guides or ambassadors on the inside before they're on the outside and just everything that EPP is growing into and becoming. We're not stagnant and we are here to stay. So I'm so happy that you got to come in with me today. And I'm glad to be with you again. Clay

Clay Tumey: 46:52

as always a pleasure. I enjoyed the hell out of it. And I hope it's not our last time somewhere. It's pretty fun. Thanks for sitting down it. It's getting chilly or outside. I'm not wearing shoes so maybe maybe the cold ground on my feet this prop but I was on thank you for sitting down. This is Friday night you're on vacation, you fly back at what the fuck o'clock tomorrow. And you didn't have to do this. You didn't have to sit and chat with me and I appreciate it so much. I guarantee I speak on behalf of many other people when they hear this. You're grateful that you sat down to chat. So thank you, and thank you to Mike appreciate it. So the final word, anything about today could be or tomorrow or EPP or not EPP literally anything start with you versus and then like

Susanne Gawreluk: 47:38

final words would be possibility. We are here to stay and anybody listening because I think there might be people listening to this if any of this speaks to your heart. Come on in. We are welcoming you out Johann.

Unknown: 47:55

I guess my final words would be a plug for the EPP camping trip into Dustin and Renee and your team of committee there. That was rock solid last year and as a spouse of the EPP family. That was so awesome to meet all of you, so please have another.

Clay Tumey: 48:26

More information about EPP please visit Enneagram prison project.org We appreciate your time and attention today. Stay tuned for future episodes of the podcast which you can expect on the first Tuesday of every month as we continue to tell the story of the Enneagram Prison Project.