Clay Tumey: 0:12

Hi, my name is Clay and this is the Enneagram Prison Project podcast. In this episode, I sit down for a chat with EPP guide, Laura Hooper. And you've heard from Laura before about her role as Program Manager for EPP, among other things, and this time around, we're going to chat more specifically about what it's like to do our programming on the inside. A quick side note, we recorded this on the back patio of the Airbnb where a few folks were gathered. And this was on a cold evening in January. So if you hear us referencing the temperature, a time or two, just know that first of all, we were outside in January. And second of all, it actually wasn't as cold. It really wasn't that chilly at all. It was it was quite pleasant outside. And of course we were outside. Why wouldn't we be? I don't know. That just made sense at the time. Laura is one of my favorite people to sit across from I had a lot of fun with this conversation. And I hope you have fun listening to it. We're glad you're here. Thanks for listening. This is the Enneagram Prison Project podcast.

Laura Hooper: 1:24

So I had pizza for dinner. Sorry. I am Laura. Laura Hooper. I am a huge fan of EPP is where I spend most of my time. But this week in particular is super exciting because we are in San Diego and I now live in San Diego. And there is a prison here that is just beautiful. And they really partner with us. So this was the first just today we graduated the first at myself as a guide inside of this particular prison. It was the first program we have done since I have lived in San Diego. So I was already feeling like this was the place I wanted to be. And today it was like this is the place I'm supposed to be. Yes. So yeah,

Clay Tumey: 2:18

you have a few titles. With EPP I think right? Yeah. What are some of those titles?

Laura Hooper: 2:25

Um, guide and program manager and kind of whatever needs done?

Clay Tumey: 2:34

Yeah talked before we talked mostly from your program manager. Role and by the way, I don't feel bad Jason a squirrel. Does that look like a heater to you?

Laura Hooper: 2:44

It definitely looks like a heater to me.

Clay Tumey: 2:46

Do you want to do do we see where the wires run? Did you say you're tight by the way?

Laura Hooper: 2:51

I did. I did not. I did on the last one. But as we will use squirrels we might not even need to say my type.

Clay Tumey: 3:01

Yeah. It's probably worth explaining what this place looks like describing I think we've all decided that we agree that a Type Seven owns this Airbnb, they must and in case anybody didn't connect the dots, we were implying that you are also Type Seven.

Laura Hooper: 3:17

Indeed I am.

Clay Tumey: 3:20

Is it worth describing the patio alone?

Laura Hooper: 3:22

It is it is a place that you should hang out. And there is a lot going on a lot of different directions a lot of signs that are interesting. And it's I mean every inch that you look at there's almost something that you could be like Oh check that out a little bit. Yeah. And it's a lot of color. Yeah, it's

Clay Tumey: 3:45

yeah, I'm looking at a sign that says in case of fire and it has a stick figure running from a flame it says in case of fire freak out and run like hell yeah, I also see another picture where the text is written sideways so that you have to tilt your head 90 degrees to read it. And that sign says you look really stupid with your head tilted like that

Laura Hooper: 4:11

that's not the end. There's a lot more

Clay Tumey: 4:15

will

Laura Hooper: 4:16

there's a sign in the bathroom I forget everything that it says but says the normal don't flush this that paper products blah, blah. And then it also runs on it says hopes and dreams.

Clay Tumey: 4:27

It also says puppies and kittens. Please do not flush paper towels any of this. Any of that. Blah blah blah puppies and kittens hopes and dreams. Yes.

Laura Hooper: 4:35

Yeah. That's a good sign. Okay. And action. Yes, the rest is cut.

Clay Tumey: 4:47

Maybe some of it maybe maybe not. So anyways, we're here in wonderful San Diego. I know. We said the name of the prison earlier but I think we have to bleep that out. I think it's I can't remember the rules around that we can say where Are we are and then not say any names or we can say not the place. And then we can say names. I don't remember which so we'll just be vague on both. Yep, that sounds good. I don't know if names are all that important anyways. But what? So the format for this class has been a little different. We were here last year, and we did a full week, full intensive, have like, full day, or full morning, full afternoon. And we did that for five days. This time we did it or four and a half ish plus graduation this time we did it. A wee bit different but still the same idea. We just split it into two weeks. So two weeks ago, we were here on Thursday and Friday, full days from eight in the morning until four in the afternoon for Thursday and Friday. And we came back this week, Thursday and Friday. Yep. What did we do here? What the hell went down and tell anybody anything that you could think of about that?

Laura Hooper: 5:53

Well, we welcomed in close to 20, folks, 15 of which stayed for the entire course. And we journeyed, I would say journey through the entire EPP curriculum, eight modules about roughly three hours a module give or take. We do like our flexibility. And you got to do that in the classroom.

Clay Tumey: 6:16

So you're saying things get snipped here?

Laura Hooper: 6:20

Sometimes? Yes.

Clay Tumey: 6:21

What's the word? The bonsai tree? What's the what's the right word for that trimmed,

Laura Hooper: 6:25

trimmed? Yes, we make decisions of how will the bonds I look this? Yeah. Yeah, I mean, it's, you know, when you're in a classroom, it's, if you've got great conversation with folks looking at themselves and sharing what's going on and present, you're not going to Well hurry up and get through that, because we got to move on, you know, you give it the space it needs. So that's the kind of the fun part of it is, how do I dance with whatever's here and adjust accordingly.

Clay Tumey: 6:53

And it's probably easier to instead of saying two weeks ago, and then this week, and all that stuff, just in terms of like day 1234? Yes. And so this was a pretty talkative group. A lot of folks in this in this class, we're talkative and how, how soon was it when you realized, Oh, they're not just gonna listen, they're gonna talk?

Laura Hooper: 7:14

Well, I have to say, when I have these kind of groups that are that it is exciting. It's like, oh, but I would say with this group,

Clay Tumey: 7:24

actually, can I can I pause real quick. And I want to ask why. What's so exciting about that, as a teacher, as a guide, who is on a time crunch already, and you're telling me that when they start talking, it's gonna immediately throw your scheduling off, things will have to be Bonzai, and all that stuff? What is exciting about that? Why does that why is that where you go?

Laura Hooper: 7:43

Mmm hmm. Well, I'm not. It's gonna sound funny, because you spend so much time in training, and we want folks to deliver the curriculum. But I'm not there to. Like, fire hose comes to mind, I don't know if that's quite the right word. But I don't look at my okay, go in fire hose, get every piece of this curriculum out. Like that isn't the goal. For me, me walking into a classroom is encourage people to come on this journey and fall in love with themselves. And that doesn't usually happen with a fire hose. It's usually they're starting to take things in and figure it out and piece things together. So when I feel that in this this particular course, day one for sure, yeah, within an hour, like it was like, Oh, these folks are in I will say part of that is six of the folks had taken the course previously. So they already knew their Enneagram type. And they have been working with it since we were here about 10 months ago, eight months ago, something like that. So that always helps so much, but like this. Yeah, I knew day one like, oh, wow, we got we've got quite a few talkers in here. And they're ready. So Okay, gonna keep me on my toes a little bit. But I'd much rather spend four days on my toes than four days. Yeah, just saying things. Look at this in the book and do this. So this is much more. Yeah, this is this kind of the dream classroom.

Clay Tumey: 9:16

I'm curious. So you talked about there's originally 20. It turned into 15. And I know a few of those were gone. By the first break. One of them at least was gone. Before we even started. He walked in and said, I wasn't supposed to be here. I don't want to be here, whatever. And bounced. And I think if I'm just listening, if I'm just out there in podcast world, and I'm listening, I'm I'm wondering, Is that normal? Like if you do you normally start with 20 and end with 15? Or is that

Laura Hooper: 9:43

mean? Start number varies for sure. But it's it's more common to have a few fall off than all of them to stay

Clay Tumey: 9:54

75% Pretty good, or is it reasonable or is it it's acceptable? It's

Laura Hooper: 9:59

reasonable in It depends on the institution. Like if it's a jail, it's a little bit different. If it's a prison, and we were in a prison this week, folks tend to be more grounded. They've been in longer like all of those things play into it. So I would say and not completely because I'm thinking of some other jails and prisons where I've had nobody quits. They're all in. So it's, it's really all over the place. And I've had other ones where so many people get released, and people drop that it's I finished one course, this was years ago with two people. So it's there is Yeah,

Clay Tumey: 10:29

and you introduce the difference between or without even saying it, but implying that there's a difference between jail and prison. And it's it's brought up a lot on the podcast. And when it does get brought up, always ask for clarity, or for clarification, rather, what is the difference between jail and prison? Some folks don't know.

Laura Hooper: 10:44

Yeah. So in the US jails are and jump in if I misspeak to this at all, please. But jails tend to be run by the county or a city and most folks that are in jails, they either have very short sentences, or they're awaiting trial. And their trial could be yes, you're released, their trial could also be you're going to prison. So there's a very different even energetically, there's a different feel. It's not a it's not a settled place. It's not meant to be a settled place. And you can feel that when you walk into hold a class.

Clay Tumey: 11:18

Most people who were there were in the free world very recently.

Laura Hooper: 11:21

Correct. And some might be in the free world very soon. Yeah. So it's almost like not quite the right thing to say, but almost like one foot still in the free world. And one foots not. So it's you can imagine how unsettling that can be of like, Am I really here? Is this my life moving forward? Or am I about to be in prison? Or am I about to go home? So it's not the same? Here? I'm facing years, or I've already been here years?

Clay Tumey: 11:45

Do you sense higher levels of stress there?

Laura Hooper: 11:48

I think there's I think there's more capacity, generally in prison to hold the stress, I don't think the stress is more or less, I think being incarcerated, and not being in the free world. And in a lot of ways, having your dignity taken your humanity. I don't know how it can't be stressful, even if you can't feel it every minute. But I think that there is a greater capacity to hold the stress and anxiety in prison than there is in jail.

Clay Tumey: 12:18

And so then prison to finish the rest of that description is where folks are going to do time. They're there for five years. 10 years, she tried to make you laugh,

Laura Hooper: 12:26

I think so she wants to interrupt this as

Unknown: 12:34

well.

Clay Tumey: 12:41

All right. So to say. That's hilarious. We're just outside the kitchen. And we can see in the window, and I thought she was given us the I like I'm gonna interrupt what she did. But I thought it was to say bye when she didn't. So prison is where folks are doing time they've got their sentences 510 20 without parole without parole. They're, they're there. They are there for a while. And just as an example, one of the guys in class today knows that he won't even be up for parole for another decade. And there are folks in that class who know that they don't have parole in their future. Yeah, I get it now. So that's that can that can be that is one of the many differences between jail and prison, do you have a preference where you teach or where you got?

Laura Hooper: 13:31

I think if you asked me a while back, I would have said prison. I don't know that I feel that way anymore. They're different. But I really enjoy both. And I know that they're going to be different. I still think in any space, you can make connection and invite folks into seeing, like, how great they are. So yeah, some classes are harder than others. But I like both. I've spent more of my more of my EPP guiding hours have been in jail because of where I used to live. And now because of where I live, it's going to be more prison. And I will say probably partially type structure here for me. I am looking forward to the change. Like I'm just looking forward to the shift and having more of of that experience and just seeing and feeling all the differences.

Clay Tumey: 14:25

Did you have any of that with this most recent class? Any of the change the the any of that? Or just in general? What was this like? This class that we just graduated today?

Laura Hooper: 14:38

This class was well, they dropped in immediately. I mean, I was amazed even the first centering Not a peep in the room, right? That's rare prison or jail. That's just rare. It was a weird experience for me in that I've been doing some traveling and going different places and supporting programs and So there's some part of me that knows, oh, I drop in, I do this thing. And I leave. And so there's not a, this. This one in particular felt like so connected for me. And so like, Wait, this is my community like I am here, I'm going to be this facility regularly. And I'm going to see these folks. And even when I was in a jail weekly, and constantly, there was so much turn of the residents that you didn't have it in. You mentioned that guy that awesome, who said, Not awesome, it'll be in 10 more years, but an awesome human. And I could feel it myself of like, oh, my gosh, this guy's gonna be part of EPP and part of my life for a decade, at least. And hopefully, he's gonna get out and be an ambassador and set the world on fire and do amazing things. But just this, there was something in me that I hadn't anticipated. And I'm pretty good at anticipation, right? But this was just like, oh, this is this is home, like, and so that felt, yeah, that felt pretty incredible.

Clay Tumey: 16:01

You're going back soon, and you can expect to see certain faces that were there this time. And I would be shocked if that fella wouldn't wasn't one of them. Yeah, he's gonna be around for a while. There's a few folks in there that are going to be around for salutely. Both because unfortunately, they have a lot of time. Unfortunate, by my definition, I'm sure there are people who don't agree with that, that's fine. But they are going to be in there for a while. And you're going to be going there for a while. So you're going to be seeing him for a while. Which is, which is kind of neat.

Laura Hooper: 16:31

Yeah, it's kind of neat. It's um, yeah, it's, it's thrilling. Honestly, it's I could see, and we talked about this, I could, we could see the shift in a couple of the folks that had been in the class, big shifts in several months. Just I see the shifts in me since I've been part of the FIE community over the past several years. And it's like, it's not just me, it's this is the collective this is what we do in community. And I get to be in community visibly with these folks. And that is, that's yeah, lights me up to say the least.

Clay Tumey: 17:08

Anything happened in this class that that was good. Actually, that final question fits perfect here. Was there anything surprising and positive? No. What is a surprising and positive truth? And the question, the closing question that we had for that. It wasn't this morning, it was this afternoon, this afternoon, where the question was, what was the surprising and positive truth that you learned about yourself during this course? So I asked you not necessarily about yourself, although obviously, you can definitely answer that. But what is a surprising and positive truth that you learned about this class throughout the course?

Laura Hooper: 17:41

The it's interesting, because in one way, it's very surprising. And another way it's not. I have been around enough to see that folks get what we're up to, and want this curriculum and want to heal themselves. And the beauty of watching that happen and like, and also for me, I love that it's yes, we're there to God, but it is on each person to choose to take this journey. And when they choose, it's unbelievable. But I knew there was hunger in this facility. But the amount and the depth and the willingness, it blew me away like it was. When you when we were leaving today, we were kind of winding down the class and just the When are you coming back? How do I get in this class? And we had a man in classrooms correct. And we had a recreational therapist and a supporting on some things in for the entire time. And they I don't know how many of them are going to her and saying, How do I get on this list? I have to be in this class

Clay Tumey: 18:41

enough that they she said, Hey, hold on me on Monday, because I'm kind of busy. Yeah.

Laura Hooper: 18:46

And then when I said April, it was like, great. And then the other, we got to wait till April. And it's like just that. This is not easy. There were tears in class. There was. I mean, you could probably talk to half the class that when they sat on the panel to explore their type or types they were trying out, we're all but shaking, and just vulnerable and scared. And yet there's something that keeps them coming and wanting this and wanting to know themselves. And so while in one way I know that that's the case, a fair amount. It's also shocking to me, because it's like, man, there's half the time I want to run away from the work because it doesn't feel good. And I'm shaking in it and like, Can I hold all of this? And then I get in a space like that. And it's like, oh, yeah, like, We're all hungry for this. We're all hungry to be more conscious, all hungry to actually get to know ourselves and it's like, it surprises me and then it turns around on itself too. And it's like, it feeds me in that way of like yeah, I want to get to know myself more actually don't want to throw in the towel of of this journey that is beautiful in awe really hard. Yeah.

Clay Tumey: 19:59

And An unpleasant question that comes to mind that somebody might wonder out there in the world is what is the point? If, you know talking about the guy who's, it's, he's gonna be there a minimum of a decade before he's up for parole, and we talk about folks who don't have parole and the whole range in between that. And I, I'm convinced that there are people who, even if they don't have the nerve, or the desire to just sit and ask this question, I think they often wonder what's, what's the point? You're in prison? Dude? What are you going to do with this? What are you going? If you learn this big whoop dee doo, you're still in prison? What do you say to that?

Laura Hooper: 20:39

A couple of different answers. I mean, the quick one is the person could get out. They could be your neighbor, it could be in your, you know, friends, family neighborhood. I want them to be a great neighbor. Right? So that's the easy answer. But the bigger answer for me is, I want to know, I want them to know why they got there, how they got there, and how they heal. The more and more I do this work, the more the the trauma that most folks that are incarcerated have experienced is unbelievable. And for me, I sit back and I was where were we as a society? Why don't we know this is happening? And why aren't we fixing it? And why are we helping people? If I had to live through it, a lot of folks that I come in contact with did I? I honestly can't imagine if the truth of it. Like I honestly can't imagine it. And it's so unfair. And I, what kind of stuff are we talking about? I'm talking about adverse childhood experiences, I'm talking about being beaten as children, family members in prison, being raped or molested as children. And the list goes on. And some of it's absolutely horrific, or being put in a home, as a toddler, and never really knowing your family, because your parents are in so much pain, they can't care for you. And then we're shocked that people end up in prison. So for me, we can do better as humans, I would love to fix everything, I would love to be part of fixing everything. I don't know how to do that. And sometimes I get quite overwhelmed with all that I'm doing is, of course at a time and but it's, that's, that's what's in front of me in this moment. And that's what I love. And I know when someone can see the goodness in themselves and fall in love with themselves. Everything in their orbit changes. So

Clay Tumey: 22:54

it's funny you say that about orbit, because the thing that the thought that was kind of already bouncing around in my head that is even more clear now is, is even a guy who isn't getting out a man or a woman or anybody else who's not getting out, they still have influence on the people around him, or around them, or as you say, in their orbit. And the idea of that positive influence. So just take six random people and maybe 123 aren't getting out inmates four or five, six are. It doesn't seem like a bad idea for one, two, and three, to help four or five and six. Who are getting who are possibly getting out.

Laura Hooper: 23:30

Yeah, I shouldn't go to prison and get worse, right? I mean, which happens a lot that's common. And I think of myself if I don't know how I would be if I were incarcerated, but it wouldn't be good. I wouldn't know. I wouldn't know how to function, I would figure it out. We're humans, we adapt, I get that. But it's also I can look at and say it's not a place that if I had gotten myself in all kinds of trouble that landed me there. It's not set up in a place that I can heal and get through that and figure out why did that happen? And how do I how do I heal myself re actually rehabilitate so that then I can be part of society. I don't I see that yes, in our classrooms. But as the whole I don't see that being the function of prison. And what you're pointing to is if inmate 123 and the other three aren't getting out three or three aren't. I want all six of them to be doing well. Yeah. Because it's a huge impact on the world on the globally so I guess that's, that's where I kind of like zoom out and think whatever, whatever transpires in 24 hours in the classroom that we have, it's putting goodness in the world. And that's what I want to do with my life. So

Clay Tumey: 24:37

yeah, I like that. Kind of pause real quick just to make sure we're still comfortable enough to keep talking. Because Are you okay, I am okay,

Laura Hooper: 24:44

I'm a little closer to the

Clay Tumey: 24:46

this jacket is warm and I have shoes on now to where my socks are not touching the cold hard ground. Same. I'm pretty insulated. Yeah, so I'm good to go. With that being apparently 40 degrees. That's your

Laura Hooper: 24:59

colleagues Probably like 7575 and I'm sure

Clay Tumey: 25:05

it might even be in the sick but it's we're gonna wait. It's an easy. It's an easy 20 degrees. Yeah,

Laura Hooper: 25:11

it's a comfortable 20 degrees, it's dark. So the sun is out and there's

Clay Tumey: 25:15

no wind. No. So that also helps. And I tried as best as I could to close this movie Kurt, I wish we could describe what we're looking at and where we're sitting on this patio. But I think I don't have enough adjectives for that. But it's an unusual place. Anyways, back to back to prison and where we were for this most recent class that we graduated today. A couple weeks ago, we were here and it was Alex wasn't able to come there was a bit of things happen. Yes, they do. And that's often a phrase that we use when we don't want to say other things. But he couldn't come. And in this time he could this week, he's here for day three and day four. What's it like having an ambassador in the room with you as you guide?

Laura Hooper: 25:58

Hmm. Well, I've never had it for quite this length of time before I've had bits and pieces. And even with Rene, he and I did something that was like kind of in custody, like transitional type stuff. But I've never had an ambassador in the room with me like this in person for an entire course. I loved it. Oh my gosh. One selfishly beyond the classroom, it's like there's this whole extra holding, like that I felt from you and Alex both have just like, we're doing this together. Like not that I just I felt the extra partners with you. Yeah, it just felt so shoulder to shoulder like we're, you know, just so aligned on why we're here. And so that feels amazing. And I love that is like my favorite time to look around the room and either one of you speak. And just watching all the participants, all the residents just, yes, they listened to me because I can be loud and engaging and all of those things. But

Clay Tumey: 27:04

and because you're great. By the way, I'll say that I'll add that piece that you're not adding yourself. You're very good.

Laura Hooper: 27:11

Thank you just gonna receive that. Thank you. But man, it's just a whole different. I can't speak to what you can speak to. And yes, we we both choose to go into prison. On our own accord we want to be there but I've never not been able to leave. You have been in that spot. Alex has been in that spot. And you have chosen to go back in. And it just every time blows me away. And it's just you are i i talk about both of you so much when you're not in the room. It's so funny to now have you in the room. Even when I'm teaching Type Five, it's like, well wait clays here. But it just, it feels amazing in right and natural. And I like I can't even put all the words there because it's almost like you there's a puzzle piece that fit together. And it's like duh, like, of course, of course this feels better. All around better for me better for the participants, hopefully better for the two of you feels like it. You know, just it's it's just right.

Clay Tumey: 28:20

Yeah. You're reminding me of something that happened when you were doing the overview for Type Five. In newer, it was well done, you're talking throughout the point you start off, as we do with with with the good side of five and what, what we love about five, and part of that is strategy part of it is just a good idea. But if somebody is in there who doesn't know their type, and they might be a Type Five, if you start with that, this is why I left Type Five, it's easier for them to say okay, maybe that is me. And and then yes, you do go through not us specifically. But all of us when we're talking about the different types, you eventually get to the stuff that's not fun. But by that point, you already heard all the good stuff, and it's easy to accept. Maybe that is me. And as you were talking about Type Five, I was just listening and frankly just listening as another participant in class and then at the end of it I should have known this was coming. Because it always does. It's how it's how it works. You said hey, so clay, is there anything you would add about five? I don't remember what I said. But I remember I remember thinking like I don't I don't fucking know like everything you're saying is like you're doing I was thinking that you were doing such a great job. And I wasn't even listening for things to be missing. It was just like this is I feel represented. I feel like you're saying all the good stuff. Well, I feel like you're representing the things that are struggles for me well, and I didn't it caught me off guard it really I hope I hit that somewhat well. I don't feel like I did. But do you know what I'm talking about?

Laura Hooper: 29:51

I do. You did hide it but I'm like my face like I can't even not smile if I wanted to. Because like that means the world to me because I know Do that you don't? You're not saying that unless you meet it. And so

Clay Tumey: 30:03

I would say the opposite if the opposite happens. I might even interrupt you in Plastico. actually hold the phone for a second, please. Yeah. So I totally didn't do that, because that wasn't the case. Thank you. What did I say? I don't mean,

Laura Hooper: 30:19

um, you. I know you spoke about the generosity at one point. You did say it did when I knew I caught you a little off guard. It wasn't just because I know you said, you kind of like, Nope, that was really good. And and then you you said something, it might have been generosity.

Clay Tumey: 30:36

But even that was something that you said I was just reiterating. Yeah. How I felt how it hit me. And then might have expanded or double clicked as we say, sometimes. Yeah. How how I really related relate it to that. It's now it's 10 degrees out here. I can't. Temperature Yeah, sure. Fine. But anyways, yeah, I was I was totally caught off guard and not not an A, I wasn't zoned out. I was just like, I was listening. I was here to hear I was there to hear what what you were saying about Type Five, it feels really good to watch someone represent my type? Well, it fills. I don't know, I get maybe other types fill this. But I feel like for me, I feel like folks don't always understand five all that great. And it's so nice. When someone who's not a five, just or you know, they are five, but I expected if they are five. But someone who's not a five just represent. Sounds good.

Laura Hooper: 31:35

Yeah. And that's I mean, that's, we want everyone to feel that every time because they like it's so funny because I used to I would say this and I meant it. But now like I feel it, like every type is amazing.

Clay Tumey: 32:01

Hey, y'all, it's clay. And I wanted to take a break here in the conversation with Laura to share with you a segment that we call our words of appreciation. Now, it's exactly what it sounds like. It's a time where we pause. And we pick someone within the organization and just tell you all the different things that we like about them love about them are grateful for all the things that we appreciate about him. And this time around, I want to tell you about Sue Lambert. Now Sue is an EPP guide. She's also a faculty member. She's an ambassador for the Enneagram Prison Project. And as is usually the case, she does many other things within the organization. I sat down recently with Sue. And well, I won't spoil it. But I'll say that we recorded for a good two hours, a nice conversation that you're going to hear on episode one of season three of this podcast, which is going to be in about I don't know, six weeks or so. And one of the things that I appreciate above all else about Sue is her willingness to do the work. And I'll abbreviate here and you'll hear more about it later on the episode with her. But I really I admire I appreciate the willingness that I believe Sue has and seeing where work needs to happen. And then having the courage to take that step forward and do something about it. And I think that is a trait that we could all benefit from. And so I appreciate that about her. And also with a few more words of appreciation. Here are a few other folks who have something to say on this as well.

Dustin Baldwin: 33:35

Hi, Sue. This is Dustin I just really want to say how much I appreciate you and everything and all the spaces you're in. And it's been such a joy to have you in my life and be such a huge, impactful part of my journey. And EPP and my growth as an ambassador to me so much love and appreciation.

Unknown: 34:01

I appreciate Sue's sense of humor and her guiding style and her grace and patience. In we do the work together conversations. I feel like I've learned so much from her because those conversations have never come easy to me. And it's been a pleasure to watch Sue from her earliest apprenticeship in San Bruno jail where we were getting lost in the halls and the deputies were trying to tell us through the microphones and hidden speakers in the walls how to get out of the building at 730 at night to now where she's training apprentices every single round. And all of us are learning from how she works with apprentices and works with other guides and how she works with participants. So I I am grateful for Sue. I'm grateful for what I've learned and continue to learn from Sue I'm grateful for Sue's sense of humor. And I'm grateful for how Sue bees so I love you.

Susan Olesek: 35:07

There are so many Sue Susan Susie Suzanne's in this project. And I think we all are reflecting an aspect of each other to the whole. And Sue Lambert is the part of me that knows what we are doing is absolutely possible. I remember meeting her on the inside feeling, the hope and her that really mirrored the hope in me. And, my God, if anyone has taken this curriculum all the way into themselves, it's this shining ambassador, I love you sue for all you do and be and for the integrity with which you do it for doing the real work when things get extra hard. And for staying the course and taking this thing all the way.

Vibha Gosselin: 35:53

So these words are for you. You are so dear to me. You will my people when I was when I did my GTP and the words that come to mind for me are wisdom, strength, light and love. I remember when I was apprenticing, I had to teach the defense mechanisms and had a panic attack and lead me know in the night I was reading my manual and preparing myself and ice I sent you an email just just telling you how I felt. And not sure whether I'd you know receive a reply not necessarily asking for something but just writing to you made me feel so good. And relaxed. My my tight belly. And lo and behold, the next morning, I received your email, and I still read that email sometimes when my heart sinks, and I'm doubting and and things get difficult. So Sue does have such a special way with words. It's like a voice in my head, you know, that says you're okay, you'll be fine. And for once I actually believe them. And that's it's it's it just inside it feels like an empowering glow. And it's a kind of undefinable quality of love that I receive. You know, whenever I reach out to sue, there's always a response. And so, so lucky to be working by your side in this project

Clay Tumey: 38:08

if you were put on the spot right now, okay, you're about to be put on the spot. Because Could you tell me something that you loved about each day? Oh my gosh, yes. All right, start with a just for because that's how we do it. That are in any order. Type

Laura Hooper: 38:24

Eight it is it's it is the aliveness. It is the like we are on this earth for a finite amount of time. Let's live like I love when there's eights around me that stir that up in me. It's like yes, there is purpose. How Type Nine is I used to actually get out of jealousy is the word but that energy that like, just, there's not when it's at its best. It's not even trying. But it's this like, there's this knowing everybody belongs and everybody matters. And like just peace with that. I look at it sometimes and feel it not. Oh, thank you for that. And, you know, I have a bias for Type One of partners Type One. Just the kindness. And these are the things we often say but I feel it even on the rough days. There's just this goodness in Him in every one and this week, we had two ones in class that oh, you can just like you can feel the goodness it was amazing. Type Two, I I am so lucky to have Type Two in my life. And probably the most important person that was in my life was my dad and he he taught me unconditional love that's as close to humanly possible and I think that's the gift of Type Two. And I don't want to live in a world where that doesn't exist. Type Three and it's so funny as I do this, I picture these different folks in my life but Type threes. I feel like for me they. And I know it's It might sound similar to seven, but it's a different flavor. It's a very anything is possible, and there's so much hope, and just existing is so valuable. And I need reminded of that all the time. And type fours the I used to struggle with type fours, I used to really not understand. Like, why would you stay with the heavy? Like, why? Why would you choose is what it felt like? And now I'm like, Oh, thank God, because you stay with me. And you helped me see like, I mean, you heard me this week talked about some pretty deep sadness. And now I'm so thankful because the richness and the joy that balances that out. Like, I couldn't actually have the richness if I couldn't have that. And I couldn't have real heartbreak if I didn't have real love. And I couldn't, I don't know that I could have learned that on my own. I'm actually pretty certain I couldn't have. And so Type Four is really helped me with that. Type Five, well, you're sitting in front of me. It is. This is gonna sound it's a simple example. But you and I have talked about, I don't have great boundaries sometimes. And I have struggled with overwhelm and different things. And these aren't new patterns. It's not just where I find myself this moment, this is life for me. And this simple things like you just said, Don't do it. Like remove that app from your phone. So you can't do it. And that's an actual thing that happened. Correct. It's like, it's so interesting to me. Because it's like, in the moment, it's like, it makes sense. But then like I think about a little bit later. And it's like that clarity, like, yes, for you. I'm sure that feels like, of course, but I can't see it. And so I feel like Type Five, just, they often show me the thing that's right in front of my face, but for some reason I can't see it. It's the same when I read the wisdom of the Enneagram. I'm like this stuff I know. But I couldn't put it on the pages like this. So thank you. Thank you for that. Sixers, I know we talked about Type Six in class today. Even sitting on a panel that we had, you can see the anxiety of being in front of the room and the very first person that sat down, he's like, man, what else could go wrong sitting on piano and kind of set it under his breath? And I heard it, but it is like, how do you move forward? When you have all of that going on? That is real courage. I move forward. But a lot of times it's very, there's not all this stuff. That's that's turning in me of what could go wrong. Sometimes, yes, but it's not a normal. And so I am forever amazed at the courage and the like we're doing this and we're moving forward. eyes are wide open. And I know things could go terribly wrong. And I'm in. And then Type Seven, which is the type I struggle with most. Joy is interesting, right? But there is a real joy. I am I'm grateful to be grateful. That's where I live. And yes, my struggles are but I'm grateful. That's where I live. Because even in my darkest times, which some of those have been relatively recent, there's still something in me that has joy, and is just still amazed at like, how did I get to be on this earth? And just what could be possible? And yeah, so yeah, I love them all.

Clay Tumey: 43:39

It's a good, it's a good demonstration for what, what I think we need to, I don't like to use words like succeed. But what we need to what we need to be able to do to do the work is to be able to go through the types and go this is what's good. I don't know that I could do that on the spot like that. I would have to attach a person to each type and then say what I like about that person. So for eight I would talk probably about Halida and why. And then nine and then all the way all the way around the Enneagram. And I will admit that I struggle with with starting off with with all the things that I love about each type. I'm impressed that you could do that just on the spot. Of course you can I expected you to be able to. And also I still find it quite a bit impressive. And there's also people who listen to the podcast, I just know this is how it works, who are new enough in their journey toward that that serves as a mini listen to them. And they they will connect with that. And I I didn't know that early on with the podcast of how it worked and who listened for what reasons and all this other stuff. And then I started getting feedback from folks. And so on behalf of the folks who will hear that and it will help them I'll just say thanks for running through that. That was fun.

Laura Hooper: 44:56

That was fun. And it's funny because I can feel a shift like that. When I first started guiding, I could have gone down a list. And it you know, I was I liked the tapes, but it's now they're, they're like in me and I really love I mean, even in the classroom we have folks that I struggle with I started my own biases that has not gone away, but like, I can I just I just love them like it's Yeah, it really is. It's, it's in there now. And it's a swim in it. And it's a whole it's pretty fun to actually swim in swim and love. I mean, actually signed me up that sounds pretty great course.

Clay Tumey: 45:35

That's hilarious. The, I can't get this slack thing out of my head. So I'm just gonna bring it up and finish telling that little tiny I even just said, I don't even use Slack. So many of our folks and in the EPP verse, they use Slack. And so I don't even remember why I suggested this to you. But I remember there was something about you know, on the weekends and being you know, this the tech thing or tech gets in the way of us enjoying our time away. And I I don't remember why it got brought up. I do remember saying just delete it. I delete mine on Friday. Slack talking about slack on my phone. I deleted Friday, Friday, Friday night ish. And then I reinstall it on Monday. And anyways, so that's

Laura Hooper: 46:20

yeah, that was it sounds so small, but it was a huge help. For me. It has been Yeah,

Unknown: 46:26

I don't even I might have even thrown it. It was one of those things that I might have thrown out there as a joke slash actual suggestion. To where if you're like, No, I'm not doing that. I could go haha, but at least it's funny. But it actually stuck.

Laura Hooper: 46:38

Yeah, it did it. Yeah. I don't remember. It wasn't like you were coaching me. Your steps, Laura. But the way you said it, it was like, Oh, yeah. Great idea. And for some reason for me, I couldn't you didn't give me permission, but in a sense you did. It was just it was an interesting but that's again, that's

Clay Tumey: 46:56

yeah, you gave yourself permission. Yeah, yeah. Yeah. That's fun. All right. So that's we went around the I love getting sidetracked. Of course, we get sidetracked. Why wouldn't it? Yeah, shocking. I do want to I want to go back to prison. I mean, that literally because it's like nine or 10

Laura Hooper: 47:13

podcasts that are mentioned, to prison.

Clay Tumey: 47:17

I chose the wrong words. The right words, but anyways, go back into prison talking about the classes today. We graduated, you said we graduated how many 15. And that was of the five who didn't stay most of those were out super, super soon. So like people got halfway through and quit out of the 15. How many were first timers? Nine. And there were six second timers correct as it's a rather impressive number. Very, yeah. And you did something we talked about this earlier. Actually, I was talking to Susanne and Mike and did you see and of course I know her name but we don't use names unfortunately I hated that rule but it is what it is but the chief of mental health was in the room with us. Did you see that? She had tears in her eyes.

Laura Hooper: 48:05

I did not I was so focused on the participants but I was so glad to hear that afterwards. There's a

Clay Tumey: 48:11

room of 15 men graduating the class and as you you call it out their name this in one way it's the standard graduation process where you hold a certificate you say their name they come up you hand them the tick the certificate they go through this line of people whose hands does shake so they shake your hand Suzanne Alex me Mike and then to the chief of mental health and then another doctor chief of psychology she's she's she try that again. This is why we added I can say the first Yeah, no. Zero degrees over here. Chief of psychology so so big wigs bigwigs at the prison I think yeah, and shook their hands. And what was so impressive about this, that's a normal process, normal progress, however you whatever that is, that's not was not normal is every single person that came up there, you had something to say to them. And it wasn't like, hey, great job. I believe in you. Good luck. It was very so specific that I won't even try to remember and rephrase, recreate what you said, but you were speaking to their specific life. And I saw this in you I saw that in you. And I think that is where Doc was touched. What the hell? What does that come from?

Laura Hooper: 49:41

I love them. I see. I see so much goodness in them Yeah, I mean, I'm I'm getting emotional about it. And and it's they it's I I honestly can't put it all into words. But in those spaces in those rooms, we all find a way to connect at a level that is sacred. I don't know what else to say other than I feel them seeing my goodness, I see their goodness, it's like this. It's almost this I'm like, yes, it's reciprocity. But it's this, I cannot put all of it into words. But there were so many men in that room this week that shared such deep things. And some of them for the first time ever, like have said, I've never had this kind of conversation with a man, I've never been vulnerable in a space like this. And yet they stay. And they do. Yes, I shake in my shoes, to some extent, right? Like I'm in this, I'm in the space and got to hold the space. But I feel like my shaking in my shoes is nothing compared to what these folks are doing in the space that they are forced to live in. And the lives that they've led up to this point, like, just, I'm touched, I'm just and I'm amazed that I get to be that I get to experience that much. I don't I yeah, I feel like I'm rambling a bit. But it's, you know, the, I was a little nervous, because I wanted to say something about each one. And I just took a breath and trusted the right words, but come because I can see into them. And I know that they can see into me in a way. And I was just there. And I wanted them to be seen. I wanted them to know, all of the work they've put in over the past two weeks. It's a lot of work not just in the classroom. And they, I saw them, and I wanted them to know that I saw them. And it was that's what those exchanges were about. I wanted them to leave knowing if you're not seeing for another five or 10 years you were seeing today, you were seen in this classroom, and you are good.

Clay Tumey: 52:16

It was it was it was unbelievable. I it was clear, at least I think it was clear. And if I got fooled on this, then you're better than I thought. I think it was clear that you did none of that was written or rehearsed. And that it was just dudes walking up, they stood in front of you. You didn't give them the certificate yet. And and then you just spoke to their soul. And to the to the truth of who they are and where they were in that moment was a trip. That's pretty bad as scary. I can imagine. And I actually remember thinking, excuse me, I remember thinking a few of those. It's, it's I don't want to say it's easy. But for example, the one seven who just makes he lightens every room that he walks into. It's an it's an easy thing to say, you know, and it doesn't, it doesn't take away from the bigness of it, or anything else. But everybody experiences that. And it's easy to say. And I don't that's not what you said, I'm just for me, what I would say is like you brighten every room you walk into, and I love it. And thank you for being here. And in the moment, I could come up with that immediately. Because that's what I experienced him as every time he walks in the room. And then there's some other ones where it's like, You talk too much. You interrupt the class, like that's what the first thing that comes to mind. And so I have to fight through that to get to the big thing. The thing that's big for them, and you nailed it. 15 out of 15

Laura Hooper: 53:50

Thank you. That was it. This is Yeah, I had to take several breaths because I just thought, oh, it's to me this is this is where my head right? You get this? And that head center with me. What if I, what if I do the first five, and I get those and then I lose it? And I hurt the other 10 or not hurt but they see why did you say great thanks to this person. And you couldn't say it to me. You know, so? Yeah, I will say I've had I've had a very good teacher. Yeah, yeah. I think her name. Susan, Susan, Susan. Yeah, it's

Clay Tumey: 54:29

funny because you say that and obviously we're joking. But I was the thought that was in my mind as you were talking just a second ago, I was thinking that it's pretty gangster. That's a pretty gangster move to just to just like you said, What about what if I say something to the first five and then hurt the last 10 Or, and I'm thinking that's a gangster. It's pretty gangster move. And that's something that we in the early days of EPP, Vic and Alex and I would frequently say, and Elam to I don't want to leave him out because he was part of those conversations. A lot of folks don't know him but I do We would say that Susan is just straight up gangster about stuff. And it's a term of endearment. Yeah, means it means something very good. From from where we're saying it. And yeah, that was that's pretty gangster. So, thanks. I'm glad you did that. I'm glad I'm glad that they got to experience that some of those some of those dudes have never experienced stuff like that. It's always been quick fucking, what's wrong with you? Can't you just do one thing, right? Like, that's so normal that it doesn't even it may not even sting anymore when people say stuff like that to them, so kudos any anything else. Um, from from today, we talked with our I talked with Susanne and Mike about their experiences in and, you know, it was Mike's first time going in, and it was like, he'd been there a million times. And there were some things that were new, obviously, but his first experience was a good one. And anything else from this class that you want to share, or even even beyond the class, it's

Laura Hooper: 56:08

so interesting, each class was so different. I keep feeling and it is literally, with each class, especially recently. And I felt it today. And I don't know if it's because we're in San Diego. And now I'm here and not as located with you know, the local EPP community. But I felt here helps so much of EPP all the different people, all the different hands in the room. And that keeps growing in me. And that. Like whoever's listening to this podcast, you're part of this, I feel you, you are in this room with us, you are part of this project. And it's really awesome. Like we are, we are all doing really good work. And we're, we're healing ourselves. And we're helping other people learn to heal themselves. And it's, I'm just I'm still amazed. I'm still, how did I? How did I get in the spot? How do I get to actually do this? So thank you to everybody listening to this podcast, like, Thank you for coming in with me, thank you for making this possible. Because it is it is something I didn't know I would get to experience in my life. And now I wouldn't know how to live without experiencing it. So obviously, there's

Clay Tumey: 57:43

at least one person will just pretend who's sitting there and they're like, gosh, it makes it sound so appealing. And so fun. And I gotta get involved. I gotta, I want to be a part of that. to that person. What do you say, even down to the technically who to call or whatever to do?

Laura Hooper: 57:58

Yeah, um, hello. One, I don't have an ABC, here's what you do. doesn't work quite like that? Well, shit. Sorry. I can think of people who have jumped right in different spots. And like, I'm in I'm doing this, I'm gonna try this path. And that's not it. I'm gonna move over here. I would say, find a way to roam the halls, find a way to show up in spaces, see what we're up to. And if it's not this space, this community, find a place where you can really do your work. And where you can. I mean, it's the big three we say, but it is. I couldn't go into a classroom. If I didn't do it and practice it. I'm not perfect at any of it. But self observation, self regulation, self compassion. If you don't have a place where you can practice that with others. Find it, seek it out. Maybe it's EPP maybe it's elsewhere. But regardless, like just find that place, you can't do this alone. It's never gonna end. You don't, I don't think I'm gonna get there. Keep hoping. But find a place where you can really practice those things and get to know you. And then yeah, that doesn't really answer your question. It

Clay Tumey: 59:21

totally answers.

Laura Hooper: 59:23

I mean, it's not like, email. Here's my email address you will EPP it's, it's because it's so much more than that. It's not. It's not just, you know, coming, can I come and volunteer and hand out cookies for an hour? Like if that's just not what we're up to? And don't get me wrong. Handing out cookies is beautiful, but like, I like cookies, but like it's, I can't give people this very easy way. Because it's, it's more than that.

Clay Tumey: 59:48

I like to ask the ridiculously simple questions that have no real simple answers. And I think you nailed it. That's perfect. That's awesome. It's nothing further, Your Honor. It's all like I think which is usually I start with you have the right to remain silent, that would have worked perfectly where it's now negative 10 degrees, but that's not the real reason I'm wrapping up. It's been about an hour. I appreciate you sitting in front of me and talking with me. And and talking to the folks out there in EPP land. Want to give you the last word? Of course, there's no question no prompt, just whatever you feel like saying. First, again, I thank you for everything this is I really am bummed out to be leaving tomorrow. I'm flying to San Jose. So it's a little easier to land there because of who's there. Gonna miss being here. And going into prison with You. I've really enjoyed this. I've, I've enjoyed being in the class with you quite a bit. And I and I mean, this one, I say, I think you're a rock star. I think you're, I think you're really, really good. And the dudes here in San Diego are just are so fortunate to have you. And there's a lot of people who probably could be here and you're, you're the best for it. And that's my opinion, I don't speak on behalf of anybody else. But that is my opinion. And that's the person who's talking right now. So I'm for them, I'm grateful that you will be getting to go back regularly and sing them you're gonna go back and what, four or five more times this year. Yep, five and holy hill. That's that's just the best. So with that, I'll shut up, turn my mic off and turn it over to you and anything you want to say whether it's about this weekend or this week or anything, anything else beyond that for George.

Laura Hooper: 1:01:37

Well, what's coming up for me in the moment is Thank you. Thanks for Thanks for calling, Susan when you got out.

Vibha Gosselin: 1:01:51

Thanks for being in the classroom.

Laura Hooper: 1:01:57

Thanks for being you. It's really what I want to say. It's actually been a pretty rough couple of weeks. And when I sit in that classroom, I see a whole bunch of potential clays, different versions. But I think when you're in the classroom, they see it and I really, I can't say enough about how much it means to me that you're here. And I mean here in this moment, but here here, and I just appreciate you so much.

Clay Tumey: 1:02:53

More information about EPP please visit Enneagram prison project.org We appreciate your time and attention today. Stay tuned for future episodes of the podcast which you can expect on the first Tuesday of every month as we continue to tell the story of the Enneagram Prison Project.