Clay Tumey: 0:12

Hi, my name is Clay Tumey And this is the Enneagram Prison Project podcast. In this episode, I sit down with EPP, Ambassador Dustin Baldwin and EPP guide, Dana Vitorelo. Just a heads up, we talk about all kinds of stuff. And this is not a trigger warning, but it is more of a heads up than anything else that we go back and forth between silly and serious and everything in between. And I don't want the serious moments to sneak up on you. If you are one of these folks who listens to the podcast while you're at the gym, or walking through the park or anything else like that. Listen to this, with some level of privacy. If it helps, I'll tell you that my 16 year old son, I would be totally fine with him hearing literally anything that we discussed in this episode. So I'm not saying that it's not safe to listen to. I just don't want those moments to sneak up on you. And I don't know, I think that's fair. I don't usually do that. But I would want that if I was in the listeners shoes this time. I don't know. I'm rambling now. I am so stinking happy that I got to sit down and talk with Dustin and Dana, about their trip to Belgium about all that all the stuff that you're going to hear about. So how about I just stop rambling? And we'll get to the episode? If nobody's told you. I'm really glad you're here. Thanks for being here. I mean that it's a big deal. So thanks. Glad you're here. Thanks for listening. This is the Enneagram Prison Project podcast.

Dustin Baldwin: 1:57

My day was very busy and full and messy. With a lot of wet concrete and tile, tile saws.

Clay Tumey: 2:07

Quiet. Why you're so soft right now.

Dustin Baldwin: 2:11

I know. It's anything I'm trying on it is actually it's kind of I don't know. Yeah, it's been sitting with me since we got back

Clay Tumey: 2:26

does it have a new language to accompany it? Are you learning French all the sudden?

Dustin Baldwin: 2:31

I ever thought about it. Yeah, it'd be pretty cool. You did? Yeah. I think it would be pretty cool to learn French I think

Clay Tumey: 2:37

an easy place to start is Who the hell are you so in whatever order you feel like it Who Who do we have the privilege of chatting with today?

Dustin Baldwin: 2:45

My name is Dustin berry interview wherever you how you doing all everybody out there. Dustin, Type Eight ambassador for EPP and that's who I am today to I've been that's who I'm really filling in leaning into more and more of my place and and really feeling into my identity more and more into that as an ambassador for for this group for this program that we're doing. Organization.

Clay Tumey: 3:35

How long have you been an ambassador?

Dustin Baldwin: 3:39

Well, officially, I guess two years now. Well, two years. Yeah. Two Two and a half years Yeah. But I started it way back in 2016. That being what the whole got invited into becoming an ambassador in 2016 when I was in residential program with Alex Senegal was the the manager of house manager and I sold out my packet back then and had a our two hour conversation with you rounded and then went off to Ellen prosa and didn't my month long training there and then I went back to jail because I was still very unconscious to all my own shit.

Clay Tumey: 4:29

I've ever I've ever fully told that story The going back story anywhere. I have to be I want to

Dustin Baldwin: 4:36

why haven't other places Yeah,

Clay Tumey: 4:38

but what the hell happened? That a fair question, by the way. Yeah.

Dustin Baldwin: 4:44

For me, it was a lot. It was a I think it was a mess necessary for me to go back. To really come aware of all the things I've learned up until that point. So though, meaning, since I was 17, I was always in and out of jail. Drug addict, hanging around with the wrong crowds, gangs, all that kind of stuff, in and out, in and out. And then this last time, I actually did a bunch of programs, bunch of classes on, you know, drug treatment, and anger management and also EPP and so I remember, put it this way, the worst feeling in the world, which I realize is having a head full of recovery and self awareness, and then relapsing. Like that, having all that knowledge in you already, and then relapse, that for me was really kind of like, this is not it, this is not what I want. And so it was definitely something that I feel needed to happen for me to really kind of make that connection as to the why it happened. I think they really just got too scary. Honestly, like when I was out there, I was in that I was at Alex's house. And I had a lot of time for a case hanging over my head that I was looking at a long time and

Unknown: 6:32

no

Dustin Baldwin: 6:34

one needs to change afraid to change, wanting to face everything that makes me the way I am tick the way I tick, but not wanting to face it, you know, I mean, and all that kind of stuff, but it just built up and got to a point to where. Okay, so the buckets? Yeah, no, honestly, fuck it. I don't want to deal with this right now. I don't want to face this right now. It's just too hard. And

Clay Tumey: 6:59

how long were you out? The when you when you went back? The 2016 ish? How long? Were you out before you went back?

Dustin Baldwin: 7:06

A year? Yeah. How long? Have you been out this time? Coming up to us? Three years? Three years? Yeah. marches?

Clay Tumey: 7:14

Did you? Did you ever compare the two? Because I'm not even would totally do this. If I knew that. If I was out like 417 days before? Like, I would want to try to just get to that point. Are you crazy, like me are now I didn't even think of that.

Dustin Baldwin: 7:27

I didn't think of it better. Yeah. So I mean, like I said before, you know, in the early 20s, and most most of the 20s I would only be out for a month here, two months there and then go right back in for a couple of months now for we go back in Vermont, you know, so it's just, there's just such a crazy, chaotic waste of time and life honestly,

Clay Tumey: 7:52

what what's different now and I want to talk about more recent things, but I'm, typically if I'm wondering something in the moment, I just assumed the listener might be and so the thing that's bouncing around in my head is what's different this time?

Dustin Baldwin: 8:06

Why are you still out here? I found my identity. It really goes it really I finally, I spent a life trying to identify and fit in into a groups or lifestyle that I how do I put it that I felt like I belong or should belong into and just completely unconscious and really, in this type of ego of I guess a sense of belonging, or, and I was just in it for so long. And and also from doing so much work realizing what triggers I had that why I felt I was getting something over on this side of the fence that I wasn't getting at home or whatever the case is, you know, and then I'm really making that my identity. That's how I identify identified as a gang member I identified as a drug addict. So therefore, I took on that identity to the best of my ability and made sure that everyone knew that that's my identity. And after doing so much work, I see my patterns I seen what I did, and I wouldn't change none of it. But that's not my identity no more. That's not you know, this work helped me find my own identity. And so now my identity changes my lifestyle is changing. You know, I went as far as changing I don't even listen to rap anymore. I just don't I don't identify it. Yeah, like country. Love Song. Like sad. Pressing music that, you know, my partner sends me so it's like, it's great stuff. I love it. You know? And I'm like, oh, yeah, you know, and I'll visit it every once in a while and I'm like, Wow.

Clay Tumey: 10:14

I have a hard time believing that you send him country music

Dana Vitorelo: 10:18

sometimes, but I actually when he's it's not quite a justice. I'm like

Clay Tumey: 10:22

facing every one. Yeah. Do you want to sit on the edge, or just sit on the

Unknown: 10:25

edge. I feel very like turned one

Clay Tumey: 10:30

way or the other. You can sit however, is comfortable, but I

Dana Vitorelo: 10:32

will send him very sad, depressing music and then remind him this isn't about us. I just really like sad, depressing music. So some it's very rarely country, although I will listen to country it's OB songs

Dustin Baldwin: 10:43

like, I hate my life. You know, I'm gonna die today and all kinds of stuff just like this is not a reflection of how I feel.

Clay Tumey: 10:51

Do you remember any of those? Remember the names of any of those songs? I'm just if I can pull it up real quick playlist.

Dana Vitorelo: 10:58

A playlist. It's my favorites on Spotify. And they're not all that sad and depressing. I'd have to go back and look, I also send him funny stuff, which we can't talk about on here that I'll send you later.

Dustin Baldwin: 11:08

But it is there are I but I enjoy it now because I noticed that even even in his way of the music. I'm listening. Like I used to love rap music, right? Because it got me fired up and pumped up to go.

Unknown: 11:22

You want to reinforce

Dustin Baldwin: 11:23

and then now I listen to some of these other songs. And I'm like, wow, that touched me. Yeah. And now I'm like, I like going visiting that place. I like I like those feelings.

Clay Tumey: 11:33

In defensive rap and those who like rap. I will I will just say that. It's not it's not the music that did that to you. It's what you it's how you chose to use them. And plenty of people do crazily enough they do that with country too. Yeah. Oh,

Dustin Baldwin: 11:47

I still listen. Can I go to the gym? When I go to the gym? I still listen to rap. It gets me fired up.

Clay Tumey: 11:54

Alright, so I just realized that you still haven't. I haven't actually asked you to formally introduce yourself. Although I do have I feel like people will recognize your voice quite easily. But let's just pretend there's a new listener out there just never heard you before. And

Dana Vitorelo: 12:08

I was just really enjoying the conversation. So you know, I'm going to always sit back and listen when I can. My name is Dana. I lead with Type Six, a guide and faculty member at EPP and really happy to be here again.

Clay Tumey: 12:22

You were also on Episode Six. I believe you're on episode 19 ish with my mom. The one that's I know. The title is sweetly stubborn.

Unknown: 12:32

She is sweetly stubborn. I love her so much.

Clay Tumey: 12:36

Actually, I talked to you in the episode at the picnic. Yeah, so you've been on before I just had different gear.

Dustin Baldwin: 12:42

And I got to sit into the background on the sweetly stubborn episode. I was doing homework. But

Clay Tumey: 12:47

yeah, my mom's out. Yeah, y'all both came to town to visit my mom. And

Dustin Baldwin: 12:55

it was cool that you were like an added bonus.

Clay Tumey: 12:59

We did get a lot of you. Yeah. And thankfully, I live close enough to my mom that I can come visit y'all too. And as it's so it's still so bizarre to me that my mom is just so like, involved and has friends. Like my two worlds have collided in a really interesting way. I think it's cool. It's shit. It's also just something I would have never ever in a million years. Like if you told me even five years ago, hey, by the way, your mom and a few you're just gonna be taking 91k and path to freedom and she's gonna have a weekly call with two different people and all this other stuff. She's gonna fly to California to hang out at the elastics I'd be like yeah, he's smoking that shit man. You know any of my mom do but it totally

Dana Vitorelo: 13:39

goes to show that any of us can change.

Clay Tumey: 13:42

It goes to show that it also goes to show that sometimes I don't know what the hell I'm talking about. And I

Dana Vitorelo: 13:48

think your mom would be the first person to say though that she didn't see this coming either. I agree. Yeah. So is like kudos to her to jump in and be so receptive when the time felt right and she was inspired and heard the call and kudos to you for just holding space constantly and inviting her in and not being offended when she wasn't ready yet.

Clay Tumey: 14:08

That's expense it's been so cool. Like it's actually one of the greatest joys in in recent history for me to watch to watch my mom take those steps and go down those really uncomfortable paths I think and and I'll share I'll ask her before I publish this to make sure that that's okay that I shared this but if not, I'll just cut it and you get to know she's starting path to freedom soon and she she had some expectations about you've already talked to her

Unknown: 14:37

would be Yeah, there were expectations around

Clay Tumey: 14:39

encouraging as I say this, they can't hear that but I can see it. And so she there were some expectations about who she might have as a guide and path to freedom and those expectations. It didn't go down like that which is how it is sometimes like it just it sometimes you think this thing will happen something else happens. And she she called They were texting me wanted to talk on the phone. And long story short, it was like, I don't know what to do with this. It's actually quite a impressive display of growth, I think for her, because instead of saying, I'm out, this is not what I thought it was gonna be. See you later Bye. It was more like, Hey, I don't know about this. I don't know how I feel about this. I'm not sure what I should do with this. I don't know these people. The whole the whole, but it was a conversation of without action that involve leaving, which I found impressive. So we talked through it, she told me who she had. I was like, oh, yeah, I totally I know both of them. And I know one of them really well and have very, you know, high, I hold them in high regard. I won't share the rest of that conversation. But basically, I was just like, hey, it's like, I ain't trippin about it. And I'm happy that that's what you have. But also, if you want me to show me call somebody make it and whatever. And she was like, No, it's it. I'm good. It was so impressive. Because that was literally all she needed was just that, that I guess, affirmation or confirmation or whatever, that that's good people. So even though you've never met them, and you don't know who they are, and they weren't who you thought they were going to be. So that's fun.

Dustin Baldwin: 16:05

I think that's so interesting how that shows up. Because I noticed that in a lot of places too, even for me, if it's someone that I've never experienced, right, the question is, can I trust them? Right? Can they hold me? Do I believe anything they're selling? Right? And so, I mean, I think it's, you know, so if anybody else out there feels that way, you're not alone. I'm an ambassador for EPP so that way, when I go into a new place, like, Alright, who is this person? And do they know what they are they living this work? Can they demonstrate this work and hold me in that work?

Clay Tumey: 16:39

How it shows up for me is, is it's not so much about trust in that person is just like, are they? Are they equipped? Like, are they How did they get here? Did they did they prove to the right people that they know what they're doing that they know the material? And it's I mean, it's all influenced by type, of course. And

Dana Vitorelo: 16:57

But doesn't that boil down to trust for the five that like I can trust? Like, if if you've hit these criteria, and you've shown a certain level of competence, then hopefully I can trust that you know, enough that it isn't that you're not trying to lead me somewhere that could be astray.

Clay Tumey: 17:11

It is there is an element of trust in there. But it's less about trusting the person and more about trusting the environment. So I don't know it gets kind of wonky, because there I mean, yes, there is trust involved there. But my my concern there is because to me trust is about cannot tell you something, and then you hold that or you keep it secret with me or whatever, keep it private. Like to me that's how I experienced trust most often in that in the situation that we're talking about if it if I showed up to school, you know, as a kid and had a different teaching math. Actually, I did this didn't happen. I wrote about this in my book, I think, where I thought I was gonna have a teacher and then I saw the name. It was a different and I was like, Wait a second. That's not who I wanted. It's not who was supposed to be. And it wasn't like a matter of Am I safe now? It was more like, Hey, that's not what? That's not right. Like, it's not and it just turns out, she got married, so she had dinner last night. It was it was no big deal. I think he got cut from the book. Actually, I think my editor was like, this doesn't really matter. But anyway said that digress. That

Dustin Baldwin: 18:15

totally remind me of the time went out. When I went back to county jail. I went back to county jail, right? This is after I started the whole Ambassador process, right? When I went relapsing back to county jail. And I was like, I've gotten five, five, push, push to get back into the program door so I can get back to EPP. Right. And so I did it. I'm in record time. And I remember I got I got the EPP class, and I walk in the class and Susan's not there. I'm like, What the fuck is going? What happened? What's going on here?

Clay Tumey: 18:49

Was it that nobody was there it was data.

Dustin Baldwin: 18:53

And I'm like, fuck is this? And why is she in this classroom? And so I walk up, I introduce myself. And she's like, Oh, my God, I found you. And I'm like, fuck, okay, whatever. And then, and then she's like, I'm gonna let us know right now we touch base a little bit around all that excuses have been looking for you and blah, blah. And I was like, you know, I thought that was really, really cool. And then later, I will, I'm going to sit down and now I'm just sitting down watching. Who is this person in my class? And do they know? And why is it not suited? And also, it wasn't?

Clay Tumey: 19:32

That's probably not an uncommon thing. And I would bet money that people have thought the same about when it wasn't Dana, if it was somebody that had gotten used to seeing Dana, I guarantee you I just know how this works. Like where's Dana? You're not Dana. Yeah, that I guarantee people have that experience with with that that's just a thing. So I guarantee you that's happened to maybe I'll talk to somebody someday. And they'll tell me that so

Dana Vitorelo: 19:55

I think it's very important to note Dustin was not my student on the inside. It was once single class. And he was never actually my student on the inside. He was not he was a participant for one day, the opening class and then I've never actually had him in custody as my participant or we were always moving in different facilities at different times.

Clay Tumey: 20:14

So when you went to San Quentin after that, how long was it before because you just in the county, you just gotten back to EPP and then go to San Quentin got to start all over, right?

Dustin Baldwin: 20:25

Yeah, well, then I went to San Quentin. And then same thing. Found out that EPP was also in San Quentin, and, you know, navigated my way through that to very quickly getting back into TPP. And kind of didn't record time because I was walking the yard one day and seeing Susan walking to class and I was like,

Clay Tumey: 20:49

dude, like, run after.

Dustin Baldwin: 20:54

My soft voice gave her a well, I didn't give her big. I don't know if I hugged her or not. I don't know, I came up. Oh, my God. We did the little I think we just did little like, yeah, there you are. And I was like, I need to get back into class. I need I need there. And so um, they had the advanced class there. That was like a while long waiting list to get in. And Susan's like, I'll get you in there. I had like a delicate, like the following week. Yeah. And then yeah, then I was in her class, back in there. And then, um, yeah, that was for a couple, only a couple of months. And then then I got moved to the firehouse. So but then I was really excited because I get to pick her up sometimes from the sidebar of the shuttle. Yeah. And pick her up and back to her car,

Clay Tumey: 21:57

a whole conversation around that, because that's just that doesn't sound like prison to me. You said something I want to I want to I want to go back to it's just a word. I like to do this. If there's prison lingo that folks might know, what does it Duquette? What does that mean? In prison,

Dustin Baldwin: 22:09

that's like a, like your hall pass. Pretty much. It's a it's literally just a little four inch by three inch piece of paper that has your name, and the time and date of a group or doctor's appointment or whatever that you're allowed to go to. And so if you're in a cell or in a dorm, you got to show the officer that you have a duck in order to leave,

Clay Tumey: 22:32

it allows you to move and go, is it an invitation? And then you have permission to go? Or is it a requirement that you go? So in other words, if you got to duck it, if you just said I don't feel like it? What happens depends

Dustin Baldwin: 22:42

on the color of the delicate. Ah, if it's a pink delicate, it's usually required delicate. And I Yeah, and if it's a white, delicate, it's a optional optional. Usually, you don't have to have those

Clay Tumey: 22:55

the only two colors.

Dustin Baldwin: 22:57

I think I think those there's probably more but probably I wasn't that hip. So I didn't get all this? Well, it was because the cool people always get lots of duckets and lots of mail and I didn't get either. So I just

Clay Tumey: 23:12

Well, that's sad. And the first part is funny. But the second part said, I didn't

Dustin Baldwin: 23:15

Yeah, it was rough was a rough four years. Well, then,

Clay Tumey: 23:19

then, I mean, in that case that did all these thoughts will eventually get to Belgium. Okay, I promise we'll get there. But I can't resist asking another question when something pops up. And just speaking to the culture of what it's like to be the prison culture getting mail stuff like that. And, and all that what, what, how big of a deal is mail? Or what's it like to be there watching everybody else get mail and you're not getting mail?

Dustin Baldwin: 23:46

When? So when you hear your name called? Okay, put it this way. So every day I remember when I'm in the dorm. When I first got to sanquin When I first got the dorm every night during Mel call, you know more than half the people in the dorm, there's like 100 people in the dorm, but at least you know 50 to 60 of them would all group up really close to the podium loves podium and everyone's waiting because you know everyone's expecting mail. And there was quite a few times you know where I would join that group. And when you're in that group, and then you don't hear your name calls for mail. It's it while it hurts. It's sad, you know, but like it made me feel very sad. It would make me feel I don't know forgotten or and then vote on the times you did get your name called, even if it was just for a delicate and not male. Just a delicate to go somewhere, it felt good. Because you know, someone or something was thinking about you. And so that always felt really, really special. I always felt very special. Yes.

Unknown: 25:18

So what's going on inside of you right now?

Dustin Baldwin: 25:23

Nothing Just just reminiscing, you know, since we got back from Belgium, honestly, and visiting the prison and seeing all that. I've just been noticing a lot more tenderness inside me. And then a lot more able to recall a lot more of my own experiences, and how things felt when I was inside. Because I realized probably right now, at this very moment, that a lot of that stuff sat and was really hurt. And so it was a good reminder. For me, it was a good reminder for me to I guess. Recognize that I am. Right where I want to be. And I'm who I want to be today. And also see a really deep breath into the parts that I that I buried. Yeah, that didn't want to feel because, you know, so it reminded me of a lot of that stuff.

Clay Tumey: 26:42

They do mail call, in alphabetical order where you were?

Dustin Baldwin: 26:47

No, they did that. Oh, that's cool.

Clay Tumey: 26:50

So be would have been like soon. And you'd know, like, immediately, almost,

Dustin Baldwin: 26:54

that's cool. I wonder who took the time to do that? Because our officers would not meet that.

Clay Tumey: 27:00

It was, it was just part of the mail sorting process. And they were super, they were, they were very strict and meticulous, that's way better than bleeping that. They were they were they were very strict and meticulous about how they sorted the mail, each unit, and it would, it would, it would be in alphabetical order. And you can see, I don't have to hang on this too long. I mean, I just but you could see the hurt in people. You know, like if their name if their name was Bob Baldwin. And they got to, you know, Carter, you know, the bees would turn around and lower their head and try to make it look like it didn't hurt while you're walking by. And it's brutal. And it does, I got a lot of I was super fortunate. And on the days that I didn't, it was like, what happened to me today. And I actually started keeping a log of who wrote me and when I got a little carried away with it. I'll admit it. I would if I wrote you a letter today. I wouldn't know when you wrote me back how long it took. And there was a point where like, if I wrote somebody and they took months to write back, I'd be angry at first was when you finally board enough to think of me kind of stuff. And so I would wait that long to write them back. And I eventually I only did that for probably a year. So but those were not fun times. But yeah, mail is a big deal on the inside. So anybody any buddy out there who has somebody in inside, throw him a letter thrown postcard postcard. Yeah, sound I mean anything now. I mean, and now it's so easy to do it digitally. I don't know if it's like this in California, but I know in Texas, and also everywhere in the feds, you can do you can do things digitally. It's super easy to send an email. It's super worth it. So okay, so

Dana Vitorelo: 28:45

before we move forward, can I hijack this for always? So I think, and I've heard you talk about this to client, I'm wondering if we could go here before we talk about love. But this does have to do with it. I think something really shifted in you when there were two officers that were falling all over themselves so sweetly, wanting to give Dustin a tour of the facility. And so he asked if a bunch of us could take a tour. And we did. And it felt like something happened inside of you towards the end of that tour. And I know that when you were in Sterling, something happened inside of you when you took a tour. And I'm wondering if we can if we can go there for a minute because I think that it's so impactful to take a tour of a facility and the loves is the only place that I've been able to take a tour personally, I've just never been available on the other days in other spaces when the tours have been offered to EPP ears. And I knew how it impacted me. And I've never been physically incarcerated. And so I'm just curious because I think you know, Dustin you came with such an open heart and so much vulnerability and on the panel and you laid it out there. And then something happened in the tour and you were massively in acted, and I talked to you after years and you were impacted. So I'm wondering if we can,

Clay Tumey: 30:03

I had to think for a second what happened is startling because I was thinking those those beautiful that on the inside of the yard, you can't even see the razor wire. It the grass is the greenest grass I've ever seen. And I was trying to think what was so awesome that I that I would talk about it being like it was all great. And then I remembered walking your talk about when I walked into a cell. And we so we on our tour, we went through some of the housing units and one place I went and we play a few games of chess and I was super laid back and super chill the tour was and then at this particular prison they have, they have I forget what they call it there but like a pet program. So the people who are incarcerated there often have dogs and and they train them, they live with him and all that stuff. So we were walking through one of the units where they had pets and one one cell in particular it was it was the one unit housing unit in particular, had a lot of dogs, but then one of the cells was like wide open. And I forget who always was I know Suzanne was there, I forget who all was with us there somebody there was a new experience. So like go into a physical prison cell. And I didn't think anything of it. I was just like, oh, okay, I'm gonna just I'm the veteran here. So I'll walk in and talk about this and the toilet in the toilet weird. Like, have you ever seen a stainless steel, one piece toilet sink? Like it's like everything happens in your laundry, cook, use the restroom, all of it. And I'm walking in with. It totally caught me off guard because as soon as I stepped in, and I crossed the threshold of that door, it was like something from a Stephen King movie where I immediately it was, I mean, even my hearing was affected. It was just like, and I was I was there again. And it was so like they was so physically disruptive like it was. I was. I literally said no, that's it. I'm good. That's back out. And it fucked with me. Like it really really fucked with me because A, I felt I felt locked up again. And I'm always just I'm always disturbed, almost always disturbed, disturbed when something catches me off guard like that. Because I feel like I have a lot of foresight. I feel like I know when things are coming around the bend, so to speak. And when things happen that I didn't foresee, or that I couldn't have expected, or anything like that. It really fucks with my head, it really first and foremost fucks with my head, because I should have known that that was of course that's going to happen. Like why why would I enact for the fact I'm angry? Like, why did I not even think about that I just willy nilly walked into this prison cell. And, and I felt like I was assaulted. And in my body just I portrayed me because I couldn't see, right. I couldn't hear right. I was shaking. And I forgot how to breathe. Like all these things just shut down. And I was like, I'm getting all this happens in like less than two seconds. And I and I step back out. Oh, good. And I forget who was there? Which is sad, because they were a big deal to me that day. But I said I that was a mistake. And they're like, Yeah, I can't imagine. And that was a fucked me up for a while. I don't ever want to feel that again. So I don't know if that's similar to what happened for you are there was another experience. But that was that was a low point for me for a lot of reasons. And that sucked. Yeah,

Dana Vitorelo: 33:46

thank you for sharing. And I, I just was so curious, because it's a lot to ask to invite you all back inside, I think many people who have never been on the inside in any capacity, whether they're a visitor, they're a resident, or they're a guide or a guest any of that I think that they really don't understand the you can't understand until you experience it. Right. And it's, it's it's hard, I think, for anyone to imagine the both the reward and the toll on someone who was physically incarcerated and detained. And then who is coming back in by choice and you shared a little bit about how you and Laura talked about that. And then sometimes if you can keep it to the classroom, it feels okay. But to do the tour to take that extra step. And I would like to say you know, Luz is also a beautiful facility. It's new, it's high tech, it's off the grid. It's glass with beautiful art. They're really progressive and we had to work on this for corrections officers, a social worker took the whole class with 26 detainees. I mean, it's incredible. And they have a lot of freedom in that facility and they have a lot of rights like more freedom and right than many places, at least in California. I couldn't go in the cell to hustle was like they have get in here like this is big. And I was like, I can't like I was crying and I was shaking. And I was like, I can't like I've hit my capacity. It actually wasn't where you hit yours. So do you want to talk a little bit about your experience with that?

Dustin Baldwin: 35:19

Yeah, I can do that. So yeah, I was already I was already blown away when we first got to the prison, and I walked in because it is brand new. And it is all nice. Yeah, it really is. I mean, yeah, these guys have a fully operational kitchen that they can go cook meals in. And, you know, like, all this, I'm hearing all these things and seeing all this they have a shower in their cell, and not like how you think it's like a showerhead coming from the ceiling over the stainless steel toilet. So which is already on Michael, that kind of sucks. But you know what, you know, and they are single celled, I'm thinking, wow, this is what a great way to do time. And as we're doing the tour, I'm noticing all these things. I was like, oh, yeah, this, I could do time here. I could do time here because I'm comparing it to the dumps in the, the places I've done time already. And like, you know, and even just the filth of it of so many different places and stuff, you know, and I'm like, This isn't bad, this isn't bad. And then we went into where the cells were, all the doors are closed, one door is open, looking at the tears, and they got the little they're solid doors, little flaps where they can, you know, raise the flap on the door do count. And I remember first seeing that that was the first my first little warning sign to where I was like, whew, this feels a little heavy. And then. And then we went to the cell. And you know, he opened a cell, and they know the guard or that was giving us a tour officer officer. Yeah, who's agent, the agent who was coming out with a call they call an agent. So yeah, I kind of liked that. Actually. Yeah, that's pretty dope. I love that to the agent that was giving us the tour. You know, he's like, Go on in. And, uh, you know, of course, I'm going to go and go check this out. So I when I was like, wow, this is actually kind of spaces. This is not too bad. You know, I could do time in here. And then that's a wild thing to tell yourself, by the way. i Right. Yeah. And also totally good. Yeah. And so I'm like, All right. And then we walked out, I was, I felt still a little more heavy, I guess the best way but I felt a little more heavy. And but it still wasn't really hitting me. And then we were in the big like the hub area, the control hub, and then the four wings are off each one we're looking around. And then we're standing there for a minute. And then that's when I first realized was like, we're standing here too long. You know, that like something already shifted. And he's like, we're here. This is we're here and we're in this spot too long. Let's, we need to move out. We need to go. And so we had a large group. I don't know maybe a dozen or something that were in that that were in our tour group. So we left the hub. And then we went into this small square room, you know, basically like, you know what, like a Sally. Sally like the doors are has to close for the other door to open. Yeah, exactly like a sally port where one door has to close for the other one to open. Yeah, we all smashed in there. It hit me. We all smashed in that little sally port, the door closed, bam. And then we waited for the next door open. And at that moment, it hit me being shoved in a little room with a bunch of people that can't move till someone else opens the door for us, or for me. And I remember just as soon as that door closed, that slam and the next one open. Soon as we walked out just a flood of different emotions memories came over me. And then we went back into the gym got in our circles. And luckily it was the second half of that day. Because after that I was so far below the line. I couldn't even take notes. I couldn't even hear listen to what anybody was saying. I was checked out. I was gone. And I also remember when all the guys came back in. You know, the guys that were locked up, came back in and sat down the circle. I remember looking at him. And I shared this with Susan I think I told you to but I had this moment that actually stuck with me where I'm looking that everyone looked like a child. Everyone in the room looked like a sad upset child that was in a cage on a timeout and not understanding why they were being on one and sad and a upset and scared and all these different things. And I don't know if that was, that's how I seen them. But that's how I felt inside. That's how I felt inside. And I was like, this is not, this is not okay, this is still a prison, you know, and and then all I wanted to do was I just wanted to help them somehow. And I knew I couldn't other than just my presence. And at that moment, I wasn't even able to give that for the rest of that day. Actually, I was done.

Clay Tumey: 40:39

Yeah, I was fucked for the day after that

Dustin Baldwin: 40:41

now, with my socks, man.

Clay Tumey: 40:46

That's conversations that we need to have as ambassadors. Like, look out. Because I've been it actually, it's funny, because I'm not funny. It's interesting. I was talking with Alex. This week, we were in prison down in San Diego. And when we go to the Sally porch, walk across the yard, like I was asking him, Does this ever do anything for you? And he's like, nice, cool. I was like, Yeah, me too. Just like the basics of walking to class. And I know that that's not always true for folks going in for the first time. But I know Chuck recently went back in and I hope to talk to him soon about that. And it's just one of those things where like, the first can be tricky. Like, it's, it's, but I've done it. I've been out for a while. And I've gone to a lot of prisons, and I've even gone into sales, but I've gotten into housing units have like, like pods or even did like the Alcatraz tour where there's you go in the sales, and I didn't like that. But I it was not a big deal. Like I've never been blindsided like that before. And I don't know, I think it might be worth talking about, you know, with, in particular with the ambassador group about a hate this trauma was sneak up on you. And it will, it will hit you in a way that you didn't know this was possible. And I think if I think that's part of what I was really angry, I should I just wish I would have thought about it. I think I think I could walk I don't think it was all about the sale. I think I just my defenses were down. And I think I was just like, sure. Cool. Yeah, whatever. And then it was that was I was off. Yeah, that's not a fun conversation.

Dustin Baldwin: 42:26

And you're right, I didn't. When we first got there the first day inside. I was like, I don't even feel like I'm in prison. And I feel strangely comfortable here. And I feel like, you know, like, I'm right at home. You know, honestly, like, I was like, Oh, this is I don't feel nothing at all. And I wasn't expecting, like you said I wasn't expecting it to affect me or hit me the way it did. And also, like you were saying you never you don't know what little thing could trigger. I mean, it could be who knows? I mean, I could. I've heard stories of other people coming inside San Quentin that teach them drug classes that did a lot here. This one gentleman did a lot of time there. And I remember made me recall that he was on his way to class and the alarm went off. And he did like 15 years there in San Quentin. But he's been out for I don't know, five or six years. And now he's a counselor. And he was I remember in class in Germany, so I lay down on the ground.

Clay Tumey: 43:24

Yeah, I would. Yeah. Pavlov knew.

Dustin Baldwin: 43:31

But it's like, you know, and then I've made so then yeah, then you just made all kinds of brought a lot of the different memories and thoughts up and I'm like, wow, that's you don't know. It's gonna turn. Yeah, it's definitely a conversation, I think. Yeah, for all of ambassadors to have. And me personally, I don't think I'll ever want to do a presenter again.

Clay Tumey: 43:50

Yeah. When we when we were at a prison in South California, whatever. I don't know if I can delete that or bleep it or what I don't know what I were supposed to say with names. Forget, whatever. After the we were there for a whole week last year, with with like, three guides and three apprentices. And it was a big deal. And when at the end of the week, they all went on the tour. And I was like, Yeah, wait, I'll wait. I'll wait. And the way the car me and Jen checked it hung out. And that was actually one of my favorite memories of the whole week actually just sitting in the car. And we didn't like talk barley at all. We just sit there and we did talk, but not a lot. But anyways, I digress. I don't I don't if I could. If somebody wants it, so if there was a purpose to it, like, Hey, I've never been you know, and I want to let you go. I would I would be okay with it. And I would just, I would I would lace myself up. Yeah, be prepared and all that stuff. And actually just remember, remember the details. That was an ad segue. And the prison where the word my thing happened was was was the whole as they as they call it sometimes. And it's oh man, I'll never do that again. That's for damn sure. But yeah, I think in sound sound there's something about the sounds because we talked about in one of the check ins this week at the class that we were in on the inside all the things that happen around prison don't bother me that much like the concrete the bricks, though, you know all the different things that sometimes the the CEOs are kind of wonky doesn't bother me at all like I know we've had some ambassadors who tripped smoothed out because of the behavior of some of the CEOs. And rightfully so because it's a trigger. It's a legit trigger. So I, I just I haven't experienced that. But the those fucking keys, man, the sound keys make the javelin and I think they do sometimes just to just to fiddle with it. And it's upright. So we talked a little bit about that this week, as well, but it's a trip. This is not on topic. So if there's anything here you want to keep going with but as you said, agents is what they call the Coos. There are the agents, I guess. Did they say a different word for the inmates there?

Dustin Baldwin: 45:59

detainees? Right? Yeah,

Clay Tumey: 46:01

yeah. I've heard Sean Felipe. Yeah, I've heard him say that before. But he's not at that prison.

Dana Vitorelo: 46:07

So we were at Luz, and he just went back and he's now the warden at Marsh, which is a facility still in Belgium. But then also they have it's a progressive facility, they have a lot of freedoms, a lot, a lot more time out of their cell, I think than they do in laws. And so very, those two facilities are very progressive facilities.

Clay Tumey: 46:27

So is that I don't know a whole lot about the Belgium CIS Belgian system. Does that language go throughout? Like, do they use that kind of stuff everywhere? Is it specific to where those people are?

Dana Vitorelo: 46:41

I'm not sure. I think they use it in most places. There is the feeling that I got and knowing that they also use it in marsh and in Luz makes me think and it's, it is Kinder languaging is like residents, detainees. Officers agents. Yeah. And you know, prison is prison. Yeah, some are significantly worse than others, right. And a lot of the guys in our class were like, so grateful to be there, like, so grateful to be in that space. So I don't want to diminish the work that they're doing the facility, the humanity that's there.

Unknown: 47:19

And you're still locked up. So that that piece that in that knowing it doesn't, doesn't leave another just the trauma that's housed in the walls? Yeah. Yeah. I don't like it.

Clay Tumey: 47:42

I don't like it.

Dana Vitorelo: 47:44

A hard reality to stay with. And I think that when we go inside, especially when we're guiding and ambassadors, being the co pilot in that space, it's easy to want to compartmentalize those things and when we can stay present to that everything is so much richer, so much deeper. And it really shows the gravity of what we're all in this space to do together, which is freedom and liberation, even if actually physically I'm locked up.

Clay Tumey: 48:28

Hey, y'all, it's clay. And we are going to pause the conversation here momentarily, just to to share a little bit of love to express our gratitude and to share a few words of appreciation. Ariane Kessel is an EPP guide, dot, dot, dot and a bunch of other stuffs that I can't list off because she does a lot of things. She is I'm probably understanding this, but she's kind of a big deal with regard to our virtual programming. And in particular with our French speaking folks, I spent a week with her in Southern California at a prison at a prison there and I just can't say enough nice things about Ariana she is extremely homeboy, when you think about heart types, her heart is in this work. And, you know, I I speak very openly and honestly about perspective guides and how important it is for you to lead with who you are, rather than what you know. And as a Type Five head type, you know, someone who like that's borderline blasphemy, and my you know, head head type circles. And it's just true, like who you are, is so much more important than what you know. I've seen Arianna and work in action on the inside with folks who are trying to be liberated from the prison's of their own making. And I'm glad she's on our team. And I'll just I'll summarize it by saying that and I'll share a few other folks who would like something to say here too. And by the way, this is not all in English, there's a little bit of English, a little bit of French. And at first I thought, maybe we'll translate this. And I've changed my mind. I actually think that you don't need to, I don't think you need to understand all these words, you can feel the love, you can feel the appreciation. Even if you don't know what the words mean. I think you'll see what I mean here in a few moments. So enough for me, let's move on to other folks who would like to share with you their words of appreciation for Ariane Kessel.

Unknown: 50:31

Oh, where to start with Ariane I still remember meeting her years ago, on a bench outside of San Quentin, we were both waiting to head in. I immediately fell in love with her with no idea how much I would grow just knowing her. We used to be able to guide together in person before COVID. And it was such a treat, I learned so much about guiding from her about how I wanted to show up in the classroom. How I wanted to hold everything that was there, she has this capacity to just stay in it. I have grown so much from being in relationship with her. I have she's invited me into parts of myself that I didn't know I could be with. I could say so much more about very practical things and her skills and all of the so many things but really that's that's what sticks out to me and that's been life changing for me and I am so grateful for aureon And what she brings to this project and to me personally, again because I please he should have yet nickimja chose chemo vinyasas Seung Ki Satya will see some coffee Sinhalese market power. It vocally shows who are benefit as Krishna mercy Chevy unsecured daily shows although serve led electricity as you put up his he was his on consoles. The login is as your locker Halina su MC Dickerson the person for alpha il fibia IEA netteller For excision alt ablv Yacht Asia Cherkasy mo sashes L A planned auto shows set and monitors on a principle comedian. He says

Jan Shegda: 52:29

Ariane Kessel I would love to share some appreciation for Ariane I've had the great pleasure of working with Ariane over this past year in a number of spaces and we were together at RJ D holding apprentices in the program there we've worked in guide development circle together and a few of the XP circles over this last year. And the things I've grown to appreciate most about aureon Well, first I should say she's definitely one of my go to people around around EPP when I have a question or when I need help with something. Or when when I need somebody to to kind of partner up with and I know is going to be reliable and professional. Aryan is absolutely like the first person that often comes to mind for me. Because probably because we've had so many really positive experiences working together. And the quality that she brings most that I really appreciate. I'm sure others will mention some other things too. I find that she brings out just a lot of balance and perspective to conversations in a way I really like. But the thing that I think is so beautiful about Ariana is her advocacy, she very intentionally tries to give voice to the voiceless whether and represent them to whatever other groups need to hear their message. So that might be a participant one of her programs might be an apprentice that she's giving voice to it might be guides in general it might be you know people from a certain a certain region or background with their guiding it could be for herself at moments. But she has this really beautiful quality of being able to stand in and yeah advocate for herself or others when more understanding is needed, and I really appreciate that and admire that about Ariane

Unknown: 54:33

Hi Ariane This is Su There's so much I appreciate about you. I love that you just are always so caring and making sure that we're taking care of ourselves since I met you all the way back at 1440. And I remember when we did the training virtually when you when you found out what my ACE score was, how how of me Did you and how how touched you were? I'll never forget that. And yeah all the holding you do worldwide what you've done over for Belgium and France and all the things that you bring to us here your wealth of knowledge about the Enneagram and gets his a pleasure having you with us all in this organization and and I just appreciate all you bring. Thank you have a good day. What does he do ppmv Big IQ to the world for the occasion affection particularly bohemian Cuba juicy ship as objective I don't know why you're here on this cruise ship with you. Your electrons welcome Guido bass to freedom media douzo in the KCC computers on signal secularity. So happy PKS young surgeon lgt instead also OC. Soto. And also new recruit has soil chemical agencies you won't do GTP Athelia killed como yo Lakeisha companion of a kill doozy to do energy dictatorship is also si de de de Sunni Sonic visuals, sequence a Bettino a to recipient video. Lesson Sahil knotel punnets Aponte polymer. Common Good. Learn more on Oklahoma. Jimbo collimator for a silicon via bohemian a price is a more subdued anemia. It also buys on Goldspot pretension they get a fault. He disposed celeriac soup till May showed it haunt us after Momo have reported owed. Sachi autograder Holy f coming to show the Alonzo continua. Don't sit on Volpone wire in an auto. My name is LM I'm an EPP guide in Belgium. First of all, I have to say that I have a special affection for Ariane who's Belgian also, I'm not very objective. So don't believe anything I bought tell you. I had the pleasure to have her as a guide in past freedom two years ago. And to appreciate her teaching skills, her clarity, or application or generosity and gentleness to especially at my most recent and most vivid memory is a GTP eight session a few months ago, during which I accompany two students with her. I was very touched by her attention to detail. Her high standards are relevant and always so benevolent tips of smiling away she took the apprentices by the hand like a guide. Really, my lighting them the way I love metaphors and the one that comes to me for a reason is precisely that over light. Not a big spotlight, but rather a delicate and strong candle that dispenses its Subtitle but warm light and the trading has certain moments of looping at others shimmering according to the reliefs like a candle in the wind please continue to dance in the wind for us Ariane for a long time

Clay Tumey: 58:27

want to talk about trains planes and automobiles with Mr. International here? All right. So I I do want to know about your travels. And I'd say Mr. International as a joke, but I actually it's that's this was an international trip. You got your passport and got my passport. And I have to say so I knew I knew that the trip was coming up. And I knew that it was not a guarantee that you would get your passport and be able to go. I knew that an ambassador would go. And I hoped it would be you. And if it wasn't you that it would it would be one of us. Others who already have our passport. And I've never been so happy to because in the back of your head. It's I like to travel I like to go it's cool. Cool going to Sweden, it's cool going to Denmark, it would have been cool to go to Belgium. Me. And I've never been so happy to find out that it's not even on the table because the one that was gonna go is the one who's getting a go because he got his passport. Tell me what that process was like of getting your passport waiting for that knowing that you're going over there not just to travel. I mean, obviously there's some fuzzy stuff in there too, but to go do work in a prison in another country on another continent.

Dustin Baldwin: 59:41

Well, if so, it was definitely a moment there where I was like, There's no way I'm going to make it. No, because I didn't have my passport and everyone's like, Oh, it takes three to six months to get your freakin passport. And if you expedite it, it's gonna do take like, two months. And you know, the passport agents is so far behind and it's even on the internet and you know, so it's got to be true. And tiktoks And so I'm like totally believing it. Right? Am I alright? So

Clay Tumey: 1:00:12

even if you get to the spot in line in time, maybe that won't even say yes, yeah.

Dustin Baldwin: 1:00:17

So and then then that when I finally got it, so I looked all over the place for to just make an appointment and ever was the appointments were booked out, you know, literally, like five, six weeks just to get the passport appointment at the post office. But I found one place where it was only like, eight days later, but it was in Napa or something like that Sonoma Sonoma, which is, you know, three hour drive from from where I was staying. So I was like, alright, well, screw we're doing it. Get there, get to the post office. Wait in the post office for voc. I don't know felt like all day. Like, I was so irritated about this, too. So, I mean, we're in this total, like country wild wild west town, right. Like literally like, it's, it's beautiful town. But you know, I expect you know, there's places you tie your horses up outside.

Unknown: 1:01:13

is the cutest, beautiful city.

Dustin Baldwin: 1:01:15

It is not a busy city. It's very small, bougie little city. There's three people working at the post office desks and I'm like, I have an appointment. Probably on break. No, they were all there. But they're like, What are you here for us? I'll have a passport appointment. And she's like, there's like three or four people minus a listless? Let us just knock this line down. And then we'll help you Mike. Okay, no, no problem. So they have no urgency that I was experiencing for whatever reason, I was experienced urgency to get this done, because now I'm watching every 10 minutes go by on my clock past my appointment date. So I'm already getting super, super like hot, irritated, frustrated. And lo and behold, there's a shitload of people that live. And they all want it to be at the post office at that day, because that line just kept getting longer and longer and longer. And then like another three other people come in, and they're like, I have a passport moment. I'm like, good luck with that. I've been here since noon, like six o'clock now. pissed. And they're like, why I'm like, I'm not joking. I've been here all day. And they're waiting for this line to go down. People are still walking in. You know? And I'm like, at what point did enough people walk in? Yeah. So I don't know if they felt the dark. I was staring at him through my eyes or what, but I was clearly frustrated. And but, you know, I even found a chair and sat down in the middle of the room. I do all kinds of stuff. And and so finally they see me. And so I got my passport. And I'm like, oh, yeah, I should take you long. And so still I'm worried about it. You know, because they we had to buy a plane tickets and the dates already coming. Right? I got my passport in like, two weeks.

Unknown: 1:03:04

You got it super,

Dustin Baldwin: 1:03:05

super fast. Like,

Clay Tumey: 1:03:06

did you know that it was gonna be a yes. Before you got it. Or like it was okay. So what it wasn't just a matter of does it get here in time?

Dustin Baldwin: 1:03:13

Yeah, it wasn't yet. Yeah, I didn't know just because I've never applied for a passport. I don't know if what would you record holds? i All I knew is all I knew is that that was funny. All I knew is I didn't know child support. Yeah. And that's the big one. That's what you told me that you'll do a challenge like no. And so then I was cool. So then I just found support and restitution to the girl. Yeah. And I had I didn't own other I don't own either. And so I just figured that now it's just going to be waiting for powers to be to get my stuff pushed through. So I was figuring, maybe, maybe not, but it was super quick. And then I took that was like, Oh, this is a sign that I meant to be on this trip. And so

Dana Vitorelo: 1:04:02

I'd also like to say he waited an hour and a half. He was not a full day or even a half day but to him

Clay Tumey: 1:04:08

what the post office didn't stay up until six. So I yeah, I was gonna let that slide. But yeah, it was

Unknown: 1:04:13

just it was an hour and a

Dustin Baldwin: 1:04:13

half. And they tried their best and I miss my lunch. I had to wait longer for that. I had a hangry Yeah, very angry. Which is already upsetting. You can see me I don't miss meals. That day I did

Clay Tumey: 1:04:29

at the post office. Did you try using your inside voice? Or did you didn't have that? Yeah,

Dustin Baldwin: 1:04:34

I didn't have that at the time. Okay, but there was a really cool couple. That was also waiting. They I was already there a good? Two, three hours, at least

Clay Tumey: 1:04:43

an hour 97 It was a long time. I thought you kept there overnight.

Dustin Baldwin: 1:04:48

What if we could I should have I had I had a blanket. But it was very there were there and they were owners of some restaurant. I don't know what made me think of that. But they were owners of some restaurant. They were talking about these delicious foods they were making. That's what made you think when I came out,

Dana Vitorelo: 1:05:05

you came back to the car with the food and you're like, we have to go to their restaurant. But you didn't get the name of it now, so we can't

Dustin Baldwin: 1:05:11

know because that would be weird. Like, you don't just walk up to

Unknown: 1:05:15

when the food sounds good. You ask what restaurant they own.

Dustin Baldwin: 1:05:17

I was too focused on too hungry. How much longer am I going to be at the post office and how many more people live in this town?

Clay Tumey: 1:05:25

So you got your passport? You know, it's a green light to go to Belgium. Belgium is a felony friendly country. Yep. Unlike Canada and Australia and a few others no

Dustin Baldwin: 1:05:41

pressure there's

Clay Tumey: 1:05:47

nowhere else where felons can't go to Canada Movie Trailer The you saw you know that the trips that go your booking tickets and you what was I mean, what was trip like and what's it like traveling as? As an ex con?

Dustin Baldwin: 1:06:12

I think it's a lot like traveling has not been a con just you know, I choose to shave my head. Yeah. People that aren't ex cons don't

Clay Tumey: 1:06:27

they just wasn't really easy. Breezy. Like no issues. I mean, we're Yeah, no, it was it was no problem at all sums wasn't an issue going on. And you weren't nervous or anything like that? Oh, no, I

Dustin Baldwin: 1:06:36

was. Because when you see a freakin guy with a badge, and the thing that has to you know, I don't know what to expect at customs. I'm thinking Where do you fly through? We went to New York to Brussels. So you flew

Clay Tumey: 1:06:51

from the states straight to

Dana Vitorelo: 1:06:53

New York. That was my doing? I knew it'd be better. Yeah, it's way better.

Clay Tumey: 1:06:57

Definitely. Yeah. Good call.

Dustin Baldwin: 1:06:58

So didn't, didn't know what to expect. And I remember when I got up, I was very talkative.

Clay Tumey: 1:07:05

Yeah. very talkative. Worst thing you can be very talkative. So

Dustin Baldwin: 1:07:10

here's my passport.

Clay Tumey: 1:07:12

Together, obviously. Yeah,

Dustin Baldwin: 1:07:14

I'm like, just my first time out of the country. I'm so excited and blah, blah, blah, blah, blah. And like, for you.

Unknown: 1:07:22

was super nice. He likes you.

Clay Tumey: 1:07:24

Yeah. That was he on the plane and stuff.

Dana Vitorelo: 1:07:27

So he's not a great fire because I feel like he's leaving the great fire. So he was really good. He's on a great fire though. And mostly because he's so big. And he had broken his back before. And so it's just like, he needs space. Like Rome. He needs me to get up a lot. Yeah, he needs to be able to move what we did do was we thank you, Rick. Thank you, Susan. Thank you, EPP we were able to get comfort class. Yeah, the comfort plus and that actually my back is messed up too. So it was like, today, like night and day if we could have gotten it from California to JFK, I would have asked for that too. But anyway, it helped. But he was pretty bad anxiety flying, and I get it. I don't love flying either. And so but he I have to say he held on to himself really well, knowing that like I've flown with him before and he doesn't like it. I thought he did great.

Clay Tumey: 1:08:16

I did too. What's the flying issues? Is it being the high or is it when they close the door? The same control happens?

Dustin Baldwin: 1:08:22

No, no, it's 100% the people it is I don't like crowded spaces. Yeah, I don't like people bumping into me. Yeah, I don't like

Clay Tumey: 1:08:32

that probably happens a lot too.

Dustin Baldwin: 1:08:34

Yeah, yeah, I've touched more but that's today's sanitized shots what

Dana Vitorelo: 1:08:41

you get for choosing the aisle? I told you you could have the window. I

Dustin Baldwin: 1:08:44

don't like being rammed up.

Unknown: 1:08:47

Do you want to be crowded against a window? Or do you want a bunch of people's butts touching oh,

Dustin Baldwin: 1:08:51

I need your I know your Yeah.

Clay Tumey: 1:08:54

So you get to Brussels. Fabulous conversation as far as I can tell with the customers.

Dustin Baldwin: 1:09:01

They did they were adorable together and then we had to wait like two hours for our luggage which again,

Unknown: 1:09:06

we read that that was gonna happen though. Yeah.

Clay Tumey: 1:09:09

So just a quick check in two hours or 20 minutes?

Dana Vitorelo: 1:09:11

No, it was it was it was not two hours but it was at least an hour. Like I was really surprised and nothing was coming I had

Dustin Baldwin: 1:09:19

I get that the exaggeration of time from clay by the way.

Clay Tumey: 1:09:22

I've told you a million times 15 minutes

Dustin Baldwin: 1:09:25

everything in Texas is 15 minutes away

Clay Tumey: 1:09:31

never said I said everything in Dallas is 3040 minutes away. That is definitely wait a minute. This is 15 minutes 15 minutes I say 30 For everything in Dallas it's 3040 minutes away. Can't even get to the end of the driveway in 15 minutes. Okay just finished saying bye to people. Okay, have a good one. Okay, you to tell you that's the Texas way math So what what was I want to hear about the trip the Belgian aspect of the trip, you get there, you go to the customers, you get your bags, you go to the hotel, like,

Dustin Baldwin: 1:10:11

go to Airbnb. And I learned very quickly what jetlag is, because you hear about it, but you don't really know about it until you're in it right. And so jet lag sucks. 100% sucks, and

Clay Tumey: 1:10:31

go enough, early enough to have a day or two, or did you go like, there's any class?

Dana Vitorelo: 1:10:36

We had two days thanks to Ariana. We weren't going to do that. And she was like, you need to do it. So.

Clay Tumey: 1:10:43

Yeah, coming back,

Dana Vitorelo: 1:10:44

not so much. We needed it. We still didn't adapt until the day before we left. But tolerable though, it was much more tolerable.

Dustin Baldwin: 1:10:52

There was quite a few times where, especially on the first two days, or you're just dead tired. You know, the weirdest times right? There times the times over there. But there's, you know, every morning, wake up, it'd be like two or three in the morning. Wake up. Are you awake? Yeah, I'm like, Oh, are you like wide awake? Oh, what do we and then what's also I found really frustrating was so like, the weekend to us is like, Saturday, Sunday. And I don't know why I'm relating to this to the weekend. But for me, it was them. It's like Sunday, Monday. So everything's closed Sunday, Monday's until like in the afternoon. Which when you're a coffee drinker, that really blows especially when you've been up since two in the morning. There's no coffee. So we're finding looking at searching for anywhere for coffee at you know, these random hours and which actually led to a really cool adventure. Because we found a coffee place like a little this place opens like at six or seven. And we had no information on other than, you know, I don't know Java 6am open like cool. We're going there. 10 minute walk. And we walked there and it's technically at the train station. And there's a whole bunch of stores open in the train station so we found a place to eat but as we're going there we found like this most awesome like farmers market that was massively huge and had so much good looking produce and food and street food and morose walk it through, we found this one place. And I don't know if it's called a crepe or what. But it was like this pink square tortilla thing but it was It wasn't flat like a crepe was fluffy. And most people are spoke English or a little bit you know enough to get by but they the people that there they didn't speak any and I was like, I want one of those. Good. Really good that you got you. And he just throws a little bit errors in there. This and that. I knew he knows. He knows the money lingo, you know, so it's got that part. And then got that. And I like rip it in half like yours. No. She's like, Oh, I'm just gonna have a bite of this. Okay, well, good. We both take a bite and we're like, this is the best freakin thing we've ever had in our life. So

Unknown: 1:13:23

I was like, you're not getting this other house back. I don't eat gluten and I was like, I'm eating

Clay Tumey: 1:13:29

it I was just blown away. And so could you find out what all they put in

Dana Vitorelo: 1:13:33

it? No idea. There was Honey. Yeah. And and there was olives.

Dustin Baldwin: 1:13:37

And like dill. There's some other stuff. We have no idea where? Tomato dried tomatoes and dried tomatoes,

Unknown: 1:13:45

lettuce.

Dustin Baldwin: 1:13:46

There's all kinds of good stuff. It was amazing. was

Clay Tumey: 1:13:48

served hot. Yes. Yes. Yeah. Did you go back there again?

Dustin Baldwin: 1:13:53

No, actually after that everywhere. I seen a bunch of officers. Yeah, I wanted to go there. Because I was like, they know

Dana Vitorelo: 1:13:59

Oh, yeah. There were a lot of police like around the market. And so he followed them from food place to food place because he said that they probably know what

Clay Tumey: 1:14:08

are you telling me that the American stereotype of the police law enforcement having an understanding of the pastry industry? Yeah.

Dana Vitorelo: 1:14:19

These officers were it was potato in me.

Dustin Baldwin: 1:14:22

Yeah, they were at a meet. Yeah. Love. It was some good for

Dana Vitorelo: 1:14:28

most incredible market I've ever seen. I would fly back to Brussels just for the market. It was amazing.

Clay Tumey: 1:14:35

So one thing that I don't know a whole lot about Belgium or Brussels in particular, but I do know that they have a rather unusual custom with their statues situation.

Unknown: 1:14:46

The man can do this. Yes.

Dustin Baldwin: 1:14:49

If you're on my Facebook friends, you've seen some of the must see sites in Belgium that were

Clay Tumey: 1:14:56

I didn't I didn't see that. I didn't I didn't see any of that on Facebook. I just know That from from old school workdays. Yeah, related stuff, so I just know how they're everywhere, right? Yes, explain it for those who might not know, there's a lot of penises

Dustin Baldwin: 1:15:13

in the most random places,

Unknown: 1:15:15

it's true. And they're gonna weird. Yeah, but where the mannequin depicts is like I could be

Clay Tumey: 1:15:25

wrong, right? It's just what I've never heard the name so

Dana Vitorelo: 1:15:29

the CEO will correct me in this if this is not it, but like there's he had the whole history when we went with him but it's like was this little mannequin and then it's like a little baby is paying

Dustin Baldwin: 1:15:40

it's like a foot and a half tall. Yeah. Because in the picture do you think it's the way it's talked about? You think it's gonna be this huge statue? No, it's the size of a two liter of soda. It's very small.

Dana Vitorelo: 1:15:55

Water waterfall and it's Yeah. And so it's it's literally like, it looks like it's yp literally peeing. And it was just one or several. So there's the one that everyone goes to and gets pictures out. But then there's other ones that you see. And so he got in the souvenir shop and got half the people that he knows the little mannequin. Got a little Yeah,

Dustin Baldwin: 1:16:15

why he was up very little boy being wined top holder. I got my son a little statue of the little boy peeing and he even looked at he's like, What is this? Yeah, I was like, I was trying to explain it to him. He goes, You're so weird that you got this and then he went along. He's like, Well, I guess will be a good conversation starter. Surely put it on his desk. And this

Clay Tumey: 1:16:35

thing's called where you have like a bottle of alcohol and you put a thing in it to pour spout. Oh, yeah, that comes out

Unknown: 1:16:41

that idea. stores that we saw I bind about that, actually.

Clay Tumey: 1:16:47

Yeah. Yeah. Look, I mean, being creative.

Dustin Baldwin: 1:16:49

I think you should actually cry. There's no way I'm the first person to think of that. Well, it is a very small little boy. So yeah, my child that poor but you know take a long time to select glass level. Shot. Oh, yeah.

Clay Tumey: 1:17:14

Okay. So this is this is welcome to the podcast. So the class itself. So you're I, I know, we hinted and talked about actually a little bit earlier about the tours and the facility and the staff and the the residents who live there the detainees? What went down over there? And I mean, because you went over there. I mean, you know, food and all the good stuff aside, and whatever about the mannequin EPIs thing. It says official EPP business. So what went down? What do you go over there for what happened? What was the point? You want me

Dana Vitorelo: 1:17:52

to start? So it was really cool. So we just finished our GTP eight not too long ago, which clay you were part of you were my co pilot. And for the cohort that was taught in French, they were all going to move forward. So sometimes we put people in the practice patch, we put people in other spaces, they wanted to move everyone forward. So we broke it in people in them too. Yeah, so broken into two apprenticeships, six people in one and five or six in the other. And so what we did was we flew Arianna in one of our really seasoned guides to be a lead guide there to train two apprentices. We had the dean who was the guide that's already out there, trained two apprentices and Cecile who is also already a guide, train two apprentices and then Dustin, myself and V pa came in to help hold space, and to help, you know, make sure that it's like kind of going off without a hitch because it's that's a lot of people to train, right. And the facility is scary math. Yeah, yeah. And the facility is incredible and receptive. And you know, there's no lock downs, and every pathway is paved, and the wardens meeting us at the door, and they give kisses on the cheek, and they've got coffee and tea and pastries and nuts and fruits. And

Clay Tumey: 1:19:14

what did the detainees were incredible for clothes, regular street clothes,

Dana Vitorelo: 1:19:19

regular street clothes, and at every break, with the exception of lunch, although one day we got to have lunch with the detainees. They got to have the breaks with us. Wow. So they're, they're breaking bread with us on the break. It was really incredible. And what again, I want to say is so exceptional about this facility is we had a warden, the warden and a director. We had four corrections officers. We had a social worker, and then we had 26 men. And they all participated. Like they were there and they were in it. And you know, I've seen a lot of incredible classes happen and I've never had the great pleasure of being able to Have an ambassador there the whole time. It just, it never worked. First, we had a hard time getting like when I had started, we had a hard time getting the ambassadors into facilities, like you were maybe the closest and the easiest to get in 2000 miles away. Yeah, yeah. But it was really hard to get ambassadors in. And then we didn't really do the compressed schedule. And the compressed schedule is where we take our eight modules, and we do them over a period of five days. So it's three days on one day off for homework and bio responses, and all that. And then the final day for closing is very intense. But it was really incredible to have Dustin there because the, the buy in happens so much quicker. Yeah. By the participants, understandably.

Clay Tumey: 1:20:49

When what is that though? What if you could just go a little bit more into what is the buy in? What do you mean,

Dana Vitorelo: 1:20:53

the buy in, which is, you know, understandably, many are skeptical when we go in, and we want to do the curriculum lead. And if you have participants that have done the class before, then you also have buy in, but it's students, participants that are really trying to figure out I think, going back to what you said, Dustin, and you said, Clay, can I trust? Can you hold me? Is this real? Are you competent? Where did you get your information from? Who's vetted you like, I mean, I remember that I had when I think I told you the story when I had a Type Five, and I didn't fully introduce myself one day, and he leaned back and he was like, You look like you're 22, you're probably an intern. Not that there's anything wrong with these things? And how do I know that you know what you're talking about? And I was like, Oh, right. I gotta actually introduce myself. And thank you for thinking, I look like I'm 22. Do you want to know your education to want to do my education, all of it, and I told him, and he was like, alright, I'll give you a chance. And he came back. And he was wonderful. But there is that he was a five, two, by the way, a shocker. But the piece where the trust gets built quicker, because we have the proof sitting next to us. I don't need to try to tell you that, you know, there's hope for you when the hope is sitting real time live next to me and can speak for him or herself. And can I tell the story about the Type Six. So at the end of day, one a day, it was actually the middle of day two. So there was someone in the room who said, this is also kind of common. I think this is a cult. Yeah, I'm not sure I want to be here. I'm really debating on whether or not I'm going to leave. And he talked to a Type Five, that was an apprentice and the apprentice said, can you just give today a chance? Like, I promise you it's not a call such a good idea. Can you just give today a

Dustin Baldwin: 1:22:42

chance wasn't that wasn't the first was the first day that was the first day. But then the second

Dana Vitorelo: 1:22:47

day, he came back. And in the first class and the second day, across the room. He said I have a question for Dustin. And this was in mod two. And he said there's an English translation. He was asking if the translation. Yeah, he was asking this one of the utterances, a fair amount of them spoke English, which was incredible because it was reset. Neither one of us speaks French, so that was really nice. And V PA and Ariana VIPA did the most of the translation. Ariana, Nadine also helped and that was really incredible, because it would have been so hard without that. And we had the live simultaneous translation. We had these special things that V pa had rented and put put in our ears and she's talking to children. It was incredible. It was so awesome. And he he says I have a question for Dustin and Justin's like, Okay, shoot, and I mean, right off the bat. I was like everything about this kid. I was like a hive. I feel like he's a six. Like, I just I know my people. I may not get every type, right, but I'm almost always right when I know someone's a six and he goes, everyone in this room is coming in and trying to tell us what to do. You're the only person who's been incarcerated. Is this real? Does it work? And if yes, how? And Dustin gave this incredible Dustin answer which was just full of heart. really honest, super blunt. There are many times where you gave me answers that I was like, oh my god, I can't believe he said that. Like one of the guys it was a Type One said to him at the very end. Great. So like you're done with the work and Dustin was like the work never ends like nice try. And it's so exciting that the work never ends. And so it what a response man. Right. And here's the thing. I can quote y'all all day long, but I'm not you. And so the fact that we have that in the room and that realness the grittiness, the the the ability to be able to hold oneself and to hold suffering and to hold light. Ambassadors can do that in a way that the rest of us can't. It's not the same no matter how good of a guide we are. We just cannot do that. And we're not coming in with that same kind of experience to back it up as guides, especially a seasoned and established guides, it's different experience. And so for me that buy in that happens when Dustin Are you clay can sit there and say that and be so real in it like you could just feel the whole room settle. You could feel every six, sorry, I'm doing the thing like sit back in their chair. And it just, it was the real answer. And so that's really what ambassadors are bringing is you are transformation, you are hope you are light, and not at the cost of all the hard shit in life. And that it's actually not that easy when you get released. I mean, you Dustin have had you faced so many things clay, you've been you're 10 years out and you still face things that are related to your past incarceration. So the react like the bringing the real notice, in a way that not that the rest of us aren't real, but that we haven't don't have the same lived experiences that you do. And so for me, I was like, wow, I have to work less hard to get my class to do any buy in when I have an ambassador there. It's so much smoother. If I could teach with an ambassador, every course from here on out whether I'm in custody or in public programs, that would be like the highlight of my life.

Clay Tumey: 1:26:27

I'm hearing that lately. You're not the first person I've heard you say that even this week.

Dana Vitorelo: 1:26:31

Why do you think I frickin hijacked you for GTP? Yeah. And I hijacked you destined for path to freedom. I mean, it's I'm fighting for it in my courses.

Clay Tumey: 1:26:41

Doesn't do, do you when people ask, especially on the inside, when when folks are asking you all these people are trying to do this, but you the only one about it? Like that's that's not like a super rare question. No, it's actually almost every class where there's an ambassador, do you? Do you feel any added weight? Knowing that your answer is? And with all due respect, your answer is going to be bigger than Dana's? Like they're gonna listen to it in a different way. And I'm not saying it means more. But it carries more say that it does. You can say that all you want, I'm just saying that with what you say they will hear differently, and probably more. Do you feel any added weight? Or is it just another conversation for you?

Dustin Baldwin: 1:27:21

Um, there was between that those questions, and pretty much any time I spoke at all, which I spoke quite a bit, but at when we were in on the inside there. But every time I did, the entire room went silent. Everyone leaned forward in their tears, and was just eyes glued, like, what's going to end? Feel that you can feel that? Yeah, you could feel that. And so yes, I guess I can say, I felt the added weight. But I also felt I'm at a point I was I'm at a place or I heard that. I came in above the line, right? open and receptive. And, and I'm getting at a point where I'm allowing to be impacted myself. And I know that when I met those places, I could deliver something real and from the heart and forever reason. That's something that needs to be said or heard. So I've been told, you know, also, like, you know, and when I also find it weird that when I'm in those places is someone asked me what would you say? I don't know, I do not remember. But I remember was real. It was impactful. And it's needed to be said, and I also need to hear it myself. You know, and whenever it's in those moments, I realized that I'm really, I'm really doing something, you know, but it reminded me once I seen that, the their reactions, how the lean forward, it reminded me and I even brought this up at the end of class when I gave, you know, told them about the ambassador program. And I was like, I remember when I was sitting in a class, and I watched I didn't have any ambassadors coming in on my class, but we watched we had videos and I remember on those videos was you clay, Alex and Vic and Jeff and I remember thinking and each one of you have a very different story. Right? But are all I remember thinking was like, I never want to be or still don't want to be any one of you guys. Right? But I wanted what you have that that, that freedom of not just of making it on the outside, but what what you guys were talking about was all in line with the thing I'm taking in. And that was the proof that I needed that was like, this is something real, you know, and without that, if those weren't there, I could honestly say, Well, I can't honestly say, but I, knowing myself, it would have just been another class. Like, if I didn't have those videos with with you all the ambassadors that came before me speaking about this, and how it's affecting their life and the snap, this just would have been another class that, you know, was still would have had a great impact on me. Sure. But I don't know if I would have called when I got out, you know, called the you know, Susan, or EPP when I got I don't know, if I would have, I like to think I would have been I don't know, if I would have because I don't want to have the videos of the ambassador's gave me a goal, you know, gave me something to look forward to when I wanted, or something to accomplish to reach. Not the title, but to be in the work and knowing that it's possible. It's real. Yeah. So and it felt really, I guess I word I'm going to keep going to his heavy because I don't know how else to explain it. But it's still very heavy knowing that I was in that spot for so many others in that room. And, but super rewarding, a little bit like, and very, very humbling. Honestly, I guess that's the best way, it was super humbling for me. And once I really realized that that's when I got my Maya my soft voice. Which is true. That's

Dana Vitorelo: 1:31:56

when when did you realize that? When do you think that impacted you? Like when do you think you had that realization?

Dustin Baldwin: 1:32:05

Probably by day two, probably after I was asked that question on day two, honestly, when when a or Type Six leaned in and said, asked me directly that because he actually cut the class off the classes, but the classes, they were already moving to the next thing. And I got a question. Yeah. And it's not about this. Yeah. You know, it's for Dustin. And then the software question, as soon as he asked that the entire room, that's where that's probably the first time I really actually really, really noticed. I mean, I noticed that before, but I noticed it in a different way. Like, you know, whatever I say here is going to insist that big, big deal, yes, is a big deal. And whatever I say here is going to impact the entire container of this of this group, the the participant that anything like you know, is a lot weighing on it. And I remember he's asked, and I just, I paused for a second, and I really, you know, gave my half seconds to, so I just didn't blurt something out, you know, right. And then um, yeah, I remember just saying something along the lines of, I can't even recall. I don't It's on the tip of my tongue, but

Clay Tumey: 1:33:21

it was you'll never get

Dustin Baldwin: 1:33:24

it was very good. I can't believe I said that should

Clay Tumey: 1:33:29

be in the book, when you're when I says about books. And I think it's a quote, I don't know where she gets it from. I just I've heard her say it. Everybody's got a book in him. The thing is, is that you in those moments when you're there and you're talking, you're speaking to that question, and you're present. And you're I believe this is how I experienced it, at least I believe that there's, there's a certain kind of wisdom that is just coming through you in that moment. And it's not really a thing. And it's not, it's not to take away credit for you being the one to say, I don't mean it that way. But I think that it's a connection that happens that when the conversation is over, the connection is broken. Not in a bad way, but it's just transmission is done. Yeah. And I think that's why it's so hard to remember. And maybe I'm getting a little too deep with my analytical thoughts on that. But that's what I really think that's what happens. happens with. It happens with all the great teachers that I know. Yeah, I've seen you know, I've seen Russ, say some stuff and then later we're like, hey, what was that so that again, try and take notes like I can find now. That's just how it is. You can remember the idea you can you can remember like kind of sort of what you were thinking but you can't can't recreate that. So that's a that's a normal thing. That was about to ask you a question and you took a drink. I was going to tell you put you on the spot. What's that, like watching that interaction for you?

Dana Vitorelo: 1:34:57

is beautiful. I mean, it was beautiful. I wouldn't be in this work if it weren't for Vic and Alex initially, so I understand firsthand how much ambassadors can show us what freedom and liberation are and what inner work is and what transformation is. And it was a, you know, I said this to you, Clay and I, I really feel like this is true for you to Dustin, like, the more I see the two of you lean in and EPP and take up more space, like, the more I feel both of you settling into yourselves, and and it's inspiring. And, and I know again, how the impact that you know, you all the two of you also very specifically have had on my life. So it's really cool to see, to hear the transmission happening exactly what you're talking about. I'm glad you said that I don't think you're going too deep. I was at a retreat, and Russ literally was like, you're going to ask me to repeat myself, I'm not going to be able to but I can say the same thing in a different way. And, and yeah, I agree all the great teachers are like that. And it is a wisdom that flows through them. Right, like they are clear enough conduit that this wisdom can flow through. And it's exactly what the person needs to hear in the moment or exactly what the room needs to experience. So for me, it was just like, This is so right. And it's it, it doesn't feel like a coincidence to me that all of a sudden, kind of around the world, we're able to get ambassadors in the room, when for so long, we couldn't and not for compressed schedules. So it's to me, it's no coincidence that something is happening kind of in the zeitgeist that is saying, we need this energy of ambassadors in more spaces, because, you know, I'm a fucking good guide. And no one is going to listen to me like they're going to listen to an ambassador. And it's really just a pleasure to sit at the feet of all of the ambassadors and to really doesn't see you take up space, it was your first time back inside, since you'd been released. And that was really incredible to be able to have that experience with you.

Clay Tumey: 1:37:12

This was your first time back inside a prison since you got out. Why did I not know that?

Dustin Baldwin: 1:37:18

It was my first time in prison since I got out. It was my first time leaving the country. It was a lot of first first time having Belgium to Ethiopian food, Ethiopian food. There's a lot of firsts. There's a lot of firsts. This was this is what I've been trying to get back. I've been trying to get back into a prison since the day I got out three years ago, but legally. Gotcha. Yeah. With the you know, with the with the different kind of delicate lets me go in and out. But yeah, and

Clay Tumey: 1:37:55

so you got out there and COVID. And part of that was tricky just because of that. So right. Damn, I didn't know, I may have known that and forgot it. But I didn't know as we're talking today, it just didn't even cross my mind

Dustin Baldwin: 1:38:08

my first time. So it was a it was definitely a big deal for me a big, big moment in my life. To it felt like a huge I don't know, accomplishment is not really the word. But it's something I've been wanting to do. For years now. It's been something I've been wanting to do for a very long time.

Clay Tumey: 1:38:34

What does that come from? Why? Why do you want to go back somewhere? Where you can't where you want to where you tried to get out of or you don't like? I mean, it's a it's an it's a traumatic environment, you've experienced trauma because of it? What the

Dustin Baldwin: 1:38:47

hell? I guess. Well, what comes to mind right now is I knew I wanted to do something, you know, to not be a role model, or maybe a role model, I just wanted to help others that were in my same position. And, and I didn't know, the best way, or how to do that, you know, and, but I knew that and I didn't know if just showing up, you know what to do that. And I think I think it happened in the right time that I had, I had to get further along and in my own work in order to be able to somewhat model or speak to my experiences in order to, you know, be of any benefit to, you know, to the group. And there's just a way to give him back, honestly, and then, and then seeing myself in so many of those faces sitting in that room. And, I mean, I remember when I was inside, I remember, you know, I was going to a bunch of different kinds of groups and even just going like to in a group, you know, and seeing someone from the outside, you know, coming in, I always thought that was really special and really meaningful. You know, and just always knew that I didn't always knew, but I knew there was something there that I wanted to be part of, that I wanted to do to, you know, see, be seen, to see others, all that

Clay Tumey: 1:40:35

go back 789 years, however far back, I mean, if mean, you bumping into each other, just kicking it in jail somewhere. And I said, Hey, man, one of these days, you're gonna get on a plane to fly to another country. Go into a prison in Europe voluntarily. And then talk to folks. What what do you think your response would have been?

Dustin Baldwin: 1:41:00

If you had any more of the shit you were on? To my eye? I have yeah, there's I wouldn't have bought it. You know?

Clay Tumey: 1:41:18

Literally just thought I was high.

Dustin Baldwin: 1:41:20

Yeah, I probably thought you're I know, but I know. Because in a different country, right, right. But it was a girl yell Sunday. It was like a real conversation. It was like Sunday, you know, I might be coming back in like on Na, or a or something like that? I probably would have. I would have said, hey, I can see myself tonight someday. Yeah. You know, not seven or eight years ago. But right. Later on? Like, yeah, I see that.

Clay Tumey: 1:41:54

I wish I was there to watch all that go go down. In Belgium, just even as a fly on the wall. I wish I could have I wish I could have synced it. I wish I could have watched it. I know. And I know without being there. How big of a deal that was for those guys, for you to be there to have those conversations. And I'm grateful for the guides, all the apprentices all that side of the work that we really haven't even talked about that I kind of want to touch on. Also, if we have time, I don't know how okay, but I just Okay, cool. Well, 190 minutes, so I could go all night. But I know that that's not always that's almost never the options are on the table. But I just I don't know, I I just know, that was a big deal, man. And I, I couldn't be happier to see you go over there and do your thing, man. And I think you're a badass dude. And I think you're doing the work that only you can do. I'm happy to see me doing it, man. That's cool. Thank you. Very cool. So that was day two.

Dustin Baldwin: 1:43:01

Were there 10 days? So

Clay Tumey: 1:43:03

how long were you were there 10 days, but how long was the even with the the compressed schedule? How How long was the actual class?

Dana Vitorelo: 1:43:13

So the actual class was four days? It's the eight modules. So three hours in the morning, three hours in the afternoon. Okay, is that compressed? Or is that before? Okay, that's well compressed is like makes it an intensive, we're trying to use different languaging Gotcha. So it's just a compressed schedule.

Clay Tumey: 1:43:29

Okay. So what give me the highlights what other what other kinds of fun stuff happened in class. We could talk about the interactions with with participants. We could talk about apprenticing you know, the handful of folks who were there we could talk about anything talking about breakfast. Did you go to chow hall? You know, in the prison anything?

Unknown: 1:43:49

Well, we went to the one for the officers. Yeah, didn't count that you know,

Clay Tumey: 1:43:53

admin there doesn't count. Yeah,

Dustin Baldwin: 1:43:55

their food. Their you know, jail prison served food. Yeah. is better than most our five star restaurants

Clay Tumey: 1:44:03

Michelin starred restaurant. Yeah.

Dustin Baldwin: 1:44:06

They're there. So

Clay Tumey: 1:44:08

she didn't go to actual chow hall. No, that's a bummer. Well, next time maybe

Dana Vitorelo: 1:44:13

we did. They did let the residents come have lunch with us in the gym one day with like soup and sandwiches. And that was really nice to be able to like actually have lunch together. There's something so special about breaking bread and having meals with each other and being able to spend that time together. But it was it was so cool to see the same work that's happening here, happen across the world, and to see guides that are so skilled and apprentices that are so grounded and and also I mean one more thing to bring it back to Dustin because I think this is really important. It was really cool to watch you kind of take take LEED and giving feedback and, and remind that group that they're a team. Because it's I think sometimes it's easy to think like, okay, we're in this one thing together. And then we go back, and we're kind of, it's easy to sometimes get siloed in this, you know, are you You guide with the one co guide that you guide with are the two co guides you guide with, and you're in the facility when you're in the facility. And, yes, there's so much community that's offered. But sometimes it doesn't work with your schedule, or you don't have time or you're tired. And so he puts such a focus on like, this work is community healing. And we need each other to be able to do it. And not just the work inside of ourselves, which, of course, I mean, of course, but like, literally, we need each other to be able to hold each other up. Because as rewarding as this work is, it's also hard, like vicarious trauma is a real thing. And our group was really meeting themselves in the heaviness of it, especially with bios, like there was that space there and Dustin gave the constant invitation of, you know, go deeper, dive into the gritty be real allow there, you know, allow there to be space for the suffering, as you also bring in the light. And so that was really, really incredible to watch, you step into kind of a place of leadership in that, that I think is really the high side of eight, like you were so empowering. And you were so uplifting for absolutely everyone, and you were like, Hey, this is the fucking thing that needs to happen. Like, you know, I know this, I'm convicted in it, it's in my body. And, and if it doesn't happen, then it's a fucking problem. I mean, and you said it was so much love, but also so much conviction. And, you know, it's an easy thing to forget that we always have to be in the work if we're going to be guides, and that that work is never just inside of ourselves. And so it's nice to be brought back into that over and over again. And I think that you did a really beautiful job of that, and inviting people into their own agency and inviting people into to take up their own space. And it's not always easy to do in a way where people are going to be able to gently receive it and, and they did like much to their credit. Like they were like, oh yeah, we are a team and holy shit, we're in this together. And this is this is actually hard, as beautiful as it is. And so it was bringing that unearthing that like really bringing that piece to light and that doesn't it feel better when you have other people you can lean on like, because it's not always the intelligence that we're leaning into. So that was really, really cool to be with and that there's all these, you know, incredible people coming in to be guides, they care so much about the work and so much about people that are incarcerated, and you know, so much about helping you to bring, you know, freedom and liberation to everyone on both sides of the bars. And so I just left really uplifted and really inspired. really inspired and really touched.

Unknown: 1:48:22

Just like we've

Dana Vitorelo: 1:48:25

I remember when we all fit around Rick and Susan's dining room table. Yeah, and now it's like we couldn't even all fit in their house like the you know EPP people like if so it's just, it's really incredible to see how organizationally we've grown and like the beautiful web that that's created, like, literally all across the world. Yeah. Holy shit.

Clay Tumey: 1:48:47

Yeah, it's fine, as you say that you put your hands on their table, and I realized that I hadn't said yet where we are, oh, we are literally sitting in Rick and Susan's kitchen. While they're out somewhere. Nobody's here.

Dustin Baldwin: 1:49:00

I drove by them when I was coming up the hill. wavelength. I don't think they recognize me. I'm flying up.

Clay Tumey: 1:49:05

It's it's a it's actually a trip because I remember to those days where it was tiny enough for all of us if I remember. I say I remember when we fit in a car. Yeah. It was it was it was I mean, which wasn't that far before. I mean, it was it was a while ago, and it's wild. It's a lot of people. But yeah, now we're just chilling in their house. That's pretty wild. How often were How often were the feedback conversations happening.

Dana Vitorelo: 1:49:36

So we had a debrief every lunch. We had a debrief every night afterwards. And then we would have separate feedback conversations when people wanted them and there's still several that we have to follow up on because there was no way for it to fit. Yeah, and the lead guides were having them at every break.

Clay Tumey: 1:49:51

Wasn't like a few like two or three congresses. A bunch. This is a lot. It was

Dustin Baldwin: 1:49:55

like two three hour conversations.

Dana Vitorelo: 1:49:58

The feedback was Yeah, They're long lunch, one was three hours, an hour and a half. Those are about an hour and a half the group, the group debriefs. The other thing that I want to say that is so beautiful, is we had people from that GTP that weren't apprenticing this round that came, some stayed for a whole week, some just came for the days that they could, we had other guides in the Belgium community come and and, and be there and bring their energy. And it was, it was just such a force of nature to feel everyone there and like putting their energy in it. It was really, really incredible.

Clay Tumey: 1:50:40

I have a question about the this, this popped into my head a minute ago talking about the briefing and the feedback and communicating and all that you're part of that Dustin? And I wonder, because you made me think of the middle of day two, when the six ask the question and you spoke directly? Do you feel a different? What's the way to ask this? Like do you do? Do you speak to the different groups the same like the are you? Does anything change? If you're talking to a group of guys who are doing time versus a group of guides and guide apprentices who are wanting feedback? Is there anything different in that? Are you just who you are? And that's what did I don't

Dustin Baldwin: 1:51:20

think there is? Yeah, no, I don't think there is. No, the only difference is maybe the topic, right? Yeah, right. That's the only difference. But yeah, cuz even when I'm giving the group feedback now, yeah, there's really not, there's no difference,

Clay Tumey: 1:51:41

as well as the things that I like to learn, like, take some notes from you, because they're the I feel less restricted talking to folks who are doing time I feel like that I would be so comfortable saying you're fucking trippin right now, dude. Like to some because they get so there's a language that I'm familiar with, comfortable with. And I think it's also received just fine. And I would feel I would actually feel bad. Saying that to somebody who like in a debrief and go, Hey, you're fucking tripping right now. Like, it'd be weird. I know. Yeah, I need I need to. And I know a lot of that, obviously, is personality type and all that stuff. But I also don't think that any type owns anything. And so I could tell I've learned a lot from Type Eight, I've learned a lot. I've learned a lot. And there's a lot of places where my life is better, because I've seen another type display, a behavioral trait that I liked, and I was like, I want to test drive. And I have in life is better for it. And this is one of those areas, I think, right? I need to I need to it's one of those is either this one is too much. And I need to chill or this one is not enough. And I'm going to guess it a little more.

Dustin Baldwin: 1:52:46

Yeah. And I don't I don't really hold back. Honestly, if you've ever had me and one of the practice patches, ya know, that I've seen, I'm like, I did not like that. I tell people to try not to be mean, I'm just like, I'm just saying me personally, that I didn't like that, you know, maybe worked for someone else. But I don't like that. And I'll explain my version of why I didn't like that. But I own my stuff I do I try to and if i don't i hope i come aware of it, you know, or someone could tell me. You know, that's, I need that too. And if I need that, then I'm I like to think I'm not the only one that's in need of someone just tell me what it is. Yeah, yeah. Just tell me what's coming up. And I need that to know, if I don't, there's never going to be no work for me to do.

Clay Tumey: 1:53:43

Yeah, it's true.

Dana Vitorelo: 1:53:44

Oh, I think that's the part where it's like, we can't do the work alone, we need the reflection back and we can't change what we can't see. So that's the part that's so beautiful in our community in particular, which is so feedback oriented. And we're willing to encourage each other to hold their own feet to the fire, hopefully encourage other people to help us hold our own feet to the fire, and to be able to stay in the work in that way. And I think it can really only happen with like a radical honesty and the way that you do it and the way you do it to clay like you're never unkind and I think that's the difference. If I can keep truth and kindness together, we're solid. It's when I started to get nice. And I'm dancing my way around the truth, the truth that it's it's it's no longer kind, and actually, it's damaging. And so

Clay Tumey: 1:54:31

you have an example of that like to somebody who's like, What the fuck is she talking about?

Dana Vitorelo: 1:54:35

Okay, so like Dustin's thing of like, I did not like that. No, thank you. And these are the things that I didn't like, and this is why it didn't work for me. And of course, that could be my preference. And here are my triggers. But blank didn't work for me.

Clay Tumey: 1:54:50

That's a thumbs up.

Dana Vitorelo: 1:54:50

That's for me. That's a thumbs up. Right? If I'm a dick about it. That's another story. But neither one of you is like that in feedback even when you're triggered. I've seen both of you try Good and feedback, and neither one of you has ever been out of line you and you own the stuff that's going on. And the other way would be like, Yeah, you know, it kind of didn't really work for me. But it might really work for other people. And it could just be my thing. And you know, and then only being half truthful about the thing that didn't work and not being fully truthful. And so like the kind of the stepping around on eggshells, and being worried we're gonna hurt someone's feelings, not saying it at all, or not saying it at all right? That's even worse is the complete omission. And so it's not helpful, right? Like, there are so many times where Susan after Satan quit, and we would be walking out and she would lean into me and say, Okay, what happened inside of you, when you said and did this? Why did you do it? And there were like, two times where she was like, cut that shit out. And I was like, thank you. Oh, like, I mean, okay. Sorry, Susan. I'm probably misquoting you, Susan is so loving and so kind. She didn't say that. But that was the way I received it. And I was like, okay, like that did not that did not go well with you. And probably therefore the room and I needed that feedback. And a lot of it was actually I can look back now and it was my own defendant heart and Susan was like, cut that shit out. Like, you can put the guard down. You don't have to be like that. And without her telling me that in a more loving and more Kinder way. Because you Susan, that's just my translation inside. I can hear the did she didn't she didn't but but she was really I think I almost think how loving and kind she is makes it worse for me. Like, it makes me want to cry. Like if she actually said Cut that shit out. I'd be like, Yeah, all right, but that she's so loving and kind, it penetrates my heart in a different way. And I'm like, Ah, oh my god, that really I get it, I hear you that really doesn't feel like I can't, I almost can't be defended when someone comes to bring me that kind of feedback in a way that is real, kind and true. And so I think that that's where stuff starts to get really murky is when we can't do that. And especially when something isn't working, and it's really clear that the thing isn't working, or it's really clear that like, you know, if someone's saying it to me that like, that's my piece of the work, and I'm not seeing that. That's my piece of the work. And for me when people can do that. For me. I'm like, Oh, my God. Thank you. Thank you. Thank you. Thanks. I mean, may initially have a little reactivity, or try to hold it in. But I know that one example really quickly is this before I met you, Dustin, but like, Vic

Clay Tumey: 1:57:39

Hello, Ambassador,

Dana Vitorelo: 1:57:40

fellow ambassador, one of my very best friends one of the main reasons why I'm in EPP why I got hooked into EPP. He said to me one day, you have avoidant attachment. And I was like, No, I don't, I'm fine. Which you're so fine if you have avoidant attachment. But I was like, anyway, it was defensive around it. And I was like, explain to me how, and he explained to me what he saw. And I was like, Oh, you're right. And I knew that I had healing to do in my attachment. I knew it. And and I said, Can you point it out to me every time you see it, and he did and he was so sweet about it, and so neutral, and then I would catch myself doing the thing. And then I would just like I would hear his voice in my head before he even said it. And I'd be like, I'm doing it again. And he'd be like, you're doing it again. And it helps me like it was literally my path to healing. And I've done so much around healing my attachment, because he loved me enough to say the thing, to be honest, to be kind and then to continue to reflect it back at me and to not let me squirm out of in the egoic way of that piece. So, you know, when ambassadors are there, and you guys are and folks are saying the thing, and you're saying it with love, and you're saying it with kindness, and you're giving the radical truth. It's an opportunity for all of us, whoever you're speaking to each other guides, participants, residents, it's, it's an opportunity for all of us to hold our feet to the fire. And isn't that what we want? Like that's the thing that helps us change and transform. I

Clay Tumey: 1:59:12

think the thing that sticks to sticks out to me and your example with Vic, is that it's you asked, you were like, can you show this to me when I when I do it instead of him just going out? You do this shit gets on my nerves, and I'm gonna start telling you about it. Like there's a big difference between those two scenarios. That's true. So it started it starts with you seeking the thing that that you're doing

Dana Vitorelo: 1:59:33

it? Well. He said the thing first, but he wasn't irritated. He just said the thing that he was seeing because he loved me enough to say it, like he cared, but he wouldn't have said it if he didn't care course. And then I was like, Oh, I really need help in this area, and I can't see it. And I mean, hopefully, if we're in EPP that's our invitation to everyone who has feedback for us and so Sometimes the feedback will actually be about us. And sometimes the feedback will be about the person who's giving feedback. And so it's also separating those pieces and then being emotionally responsible, like, what part is actually mine? What part is yours and me not taking on less than mine, or more than mine in whatever that piece is. But yes, I was very receptive. And because I was suffering, and I needed the help.

Clay Tumey: 2:00:26

So going back to Belgium to, I guess, wrap that up there, the judges like a regular graduation and all that stuff. And we

Dana Vitorelo: 2:00:35

didn't make bracelets hand where you put it on the other you put it on the person next to you.

Clay Tumey: 2:00:40

Oh, I didn't I don't know anything about that, either. I've never This is never Yeah, okay. Can I? Sure. Okay,

Dana Vitorelo: 2:00:46

so we did the the closing, like, you know, everyone is gonna have their word we're like, nice and quiet. We're inviting people in. And then as we do the word, we turn to the person next to the closing word, sorry, one word close, like, what are you taking from this? Or how did it impact you? What is your key to freedom? I think we already had done key to freedom. And then it was just your closing words. So like, what are you taking with you today, and we say the word and we turn to the person next to us, and they put their hand out and we put the bracelet on them. And then they take the bracelet in their hand and they do it to the person next to them. And it's so impactful to do that. And it's like, the room was completely silence. And everyone is saying their word. And we're all putting our bracelets on each other. And it's just lovely. Like Susan has done that in other spaces, because you can't always bring in bracelets. Right, right. But this facility will like the

Clay Tumey: 2:01:37

little rubbery. Like I don't know what kind of bracelet they're called. But it's like a fancy rubber band. Yeah, it's wide and you slide it over your wrist. It's not like a diamond. Yeah, it's not it's Enneagram Prison Project on one side. And I think on the other side.

Dana Vitorelo: 2:01:53

Anyway, that was really lovely. In the closing for me, I think that was the most impactful part of it. And then no one wanted to leave and yeah, like, you're not going to get arrested if you give someone in close. Oh, really? Yeah. Okay. Like, I mean, we weren't like hugging every person.

Clay Tumey: 2:02:09

I get away with that. Because I'm you know, whatever. I don't actually know why. But we Yeah, Ambassador is totally good. We've been hugging people for years. Yeah. Okay.

Dustin Baldwin: 2:02:17

Hugging people. Yeah, the whole thing. Yeah, yeah. Oh, yeah.

Dana Vitorelo: 2:02:21

He was in that. Yeah. But I I wasn't right. I wasn't trying to get any of us in trouble. And at the end, a couple of the guys just leaned in and like squeezed me. And I was like, oh, what? Anyway, the, the warden was right next to me. She didn't she didn't care. But I was like, wow, this is like, Hey, my name is so humane. It makes me think all the time with your phrase, clay, the power of the hug. Yeah. And what it does to us when we literally can't touch each other. And even in the room, there was a lot of guys that were I'm gonna use the word all over each other, but not in a way where you're like, oh, that's inappropriate. But it was just like, they would touch each other and hug each other. And I was like, Oh, my God, that is so nice to see.

Clay Tumey: 2:03:02

It's the natural display of care and love that people take for granted out here in the wild. Oh,

Dana Vitorelo: 2:03:09

it was so beautiful. I was just like, every time anyone in the room was touching each other. I was like, Well, how it's a big deal. It's a really big deal.

Clay Tumey: 2:03:18

So if nobody wanted to leave the room when the whole thing was over. What happened? Well, we

Dana Vitorelo: 2:03:24

had a train, we had literally had a train like that we were gonna miss if we didn't leave the minute we left. And that was sad. Because we wanted to be able to stay a little longer to do also to talk with the warden and and anyone else who was able to stay afterwards. We would we wouldn't do that again. Next time we would add a day on be able to stay.

Clay Tumey: 2:03:46

What was the trip like back after having experienced something that I would venture to say it's probably pretty unusual.

Dustin Baldwin: 2:03:56

It didn't really hit me until, you know, second, second day back, I guess. You know, because the first the trip bag itself was already you know, 1213 hours, whatever it is money was almost 20 Friends between airports and pull that a little closer to

Clay Tumey: 2:04:13

be

Dustin Baldwin: 2:04:15

12 or 13 hours.

Clay Tumey: 2:04:18

Just like this. Yeah. Well, we're

Dustin Baldwin: 2:04:22

through there all day. Yeah, between airports, airplanes, right. No, I'm not. I'm just trying to figure out how I'm gonna get comfortable. Honestly, I'm laying it physically comfortable. And, you know, for the next couple hours, and but then when we got back I don't. I really noticed something inside of me shifted in a major way, in a good way. But there was definitely a major shift their hand, it's still there. And I dig it. Honestly, I'm happy or happy that it's there. And I'm, I'm hungry for more. I'm hungry for more hungry for next steps. And and how, what other ways can I be in service? It's really kind of heavy on me to know, do you have any ideas on that? Well, the first step is showing up. Honestly, showing up, when, when and where I can show up and show up with the with whatever's happening inside of me now showing up like that has shown up in either way, it's just not the same, you know, being able to really, really show up, you know, and, and myself and who I am.

Dana Vitorelo: 2:06:07

I just want to say that I think one of the things that shifted in you, that I've seen is that I've never experienced you as struggling to have moments of vulnerability, but it feels like you've like leveled up and in being vulnerable. And being intimate with people like inviting people into your heart, like literally saying, I want to be impacted, impact me. And that's not always the eighth way, right? Like the defense system tells me well, I want to impact but I don't know that I actually want to be impacted by the world. And there's not always a trust in that and how it's going to turn out. And it feels like you've just invited so many people into your heart. And it's so expansive there and your heart has so much to offer. And it kind of reminds me of like the nines capacity to just hold all. And it feels like your heart was just held everyone in the room, there were like 50 people in the room very consistently. And I've never experienced you as being that open that receptive that willing to be impacted, like wanting of it, craving it, inviting it. And then because you could come from such an open and receptive space, like what you were offering up with no agenda for people to be forced to receive it, or that you weren't trying to force your impact on people, you were just letting it land. And if they wanted to let it impact them, it was okay. And if they didn't, it was also okay. As is really inspiring and speaks to like the beautiful, big, magnanimous heart that the Type Eight often tries to protect and hide. So I feel like you have a very undefended heart. And I appreciate that I get to reap some of the the benefits of that.

Clay Tumey: 2:08:08

Was there an actual quiet voice that that came with it?

Dana Vitorelo: 2:08:12

I think yeah, I think I think not like that. But I think that there was a settling inside of himself where, again, I don't have to force any impact, I can just let it land. And sometimes the loud voice for any of us is trying to force an impact or force us being heard. So I think that his energy is still as big. But the voice I think really shifted in the guide. Like in him being the co pilot in that space. I do think that his voice shifted. Then there wasn't a forcefulness around needing to be heard or bring his bigness in that way. It was more of an invitation in than a pushing out, right? Because when we look at the eight, there's that strategy of I just expand out until I hit shit. And then okay, I know the world is meeting me. And I think that in those moments throughout this Dustin was meeting himself. And yes, he was being met by people in the room and he was being able to meet them as well. But from literally everywhere in the facility to the guides and the apprentices and all of us. But there was a settling down. I think that happened inside that did lead to a quieter voice. I think so.

Clay Tumey: 2:09:27

It's been a good conversation. A bigger it's been a couple hours too, by the way.

Unknown: 2:09:31

Yeah, we did good.

Dustin Baldwin: 2:09:32

Yeah, I'm feel like it.

Clay Tumey: 2:09:34

Yeah. You know, we got two more was extra saying no.

Unknown: 2:09:39

I'm getting hungry.

Clay Tumey: 2:09:40

I'm getting hungry as well. We'll, we'll stop here. First, I want to say thanks. And I don't have another question. I just kind of give the last word to whoever I'm talking to. So I'll give that to y'all. But But before that, I do want to just say Make sure you like, understand how much I appreciate being able to sit across from me. It's cool to me man that I love. I love the people that I've met along the way. And the friends that I've made, and y'all are two of them, I think really highly of love you individually, I love you together. So with that, I'll say nothing more, no question. No prompt, just whatever's on your mind, you have the last word.

Dana Vitorelo: 2:10:24

I think I just have so much gratitude coming off of this training for what we do as an organization, what our mission is for the people that get called to this work for the participants that what for whatever reason, trust and follow their way into the classroom and sit down and take up space and show up in the beautiful ways that they do. And I owe so much of my own healing to EPP and to ambassadors and to students that are participants that are incarcerated. I literally wouldn't be the person I am today without it. And that to me is just so so astounding. It blows my mind. So appreciating the vision that was really birthed out of Susan yes with the help of other people but good god other worldly to quote your mom

Dustin Baldwin: 2:11:25

yeah, I'm, I'm definitely feeling what's coming to mind is a new beginning. Honestly. For yourself, like, like I'm, I'm feeling I'm really I don't know if this is a ego or what but I'm really wanting more and it's, I think it's set it right on I'm really one to be impacted more, I want to be impacted because I want to be impacted back. I want to, like I don't know how to put it what's going on, I want to be able to I really enjoy feeling everything that I was feeling. I guess that's the best way to put it. Like real authentic feelings of just such a magnitude of fullness and and and I found it back inside those rooms back inside those walls back behind back in prison. And for me, I'm really sensing like, you know, new beginnings for me in that area of relief kind of giving back and and just staying in this work which never ends.

Clay Tumey: 2:13:08

More information about EPP please visit Enneagram prison project.org We appreciate your time and attention today. Stay tuned for future episodes of the podcast which you can expect on the first Tuesday of every month as we continue to tell the story of the Enneagram Prison Project.