Clay Tumey: 0:06

Hi, my name is Clay Tumey. And this is the Enneagram Prison Project podcast. In this episode, I get to sit down for a lengthy chat with Djinnaya, who is among many other things, a recent participant in our guide Training Program, also known as GTP. She's also one of our newest guide apprentices or apprentice guides, I actually don't know which order, those two words are supposed to go in. One of them's right, I just don't know which one it is. Anyways, I digress. I've got some really good news for you about the podcast. I have so many recorded right now that are waiting to be edited and will be uploaded. We may even have more than one per month here for the next couple of months. Who knows we'll see conversations with Laura Hooper. Alex Senegal, also going to hear from Dana and Dustin, who recently went to Belgium going to hear about that, as well as EPP guide Suzanne and her husband, Mike, who joined us for a graduation at a class down in Southern California, and the prison that we program at down there. By the way, that was my first time going into prison. So I'm looking forward to hearing the stories from that conversation. We're glad you're here. Thanks for listening. This is the Enneagram Prison Project podcast.

Djinnaya Stroud: 1:39

My name is Djinnaya. I am a I worked with Type Four. I feel like I'll just leave with that. I didn't use to lead with that in my life, I was very resistant to having a type at all.

Unknown: 1:53

But now

Djinnaya Stroud: 1:55

Now I see the usefulness. I'm exposing it early. I'm many things at EPP I've been a student. And I'm now moving into being an apprentice guide. I just finished the guide training program. I've been a builder, sort of what we call our volunteers. Yeah. And then I have a whole other life where I'm many, many

Clay Tumey: 2:22

other things. Well, you can talk about as many of those things that you'd like I want to kind of double click, as we say, on when talking about your work with Type Four and being resist resistant to that early on. And then and then now not so much. What What I'm curious what that was about when you in being resistant? What happens as part of that influenced by Type Two? Do you think all folks experienced that? And what? What was the catalyst for transitioning into something different? Where you are? Yes, I am a Type Four. That is what I work with?

Unknown: 2:56

Well, that's a lot of

Djinnaya Stroud: 3:01

questions. I think that the question about whether being resistant is about type. I think it's about people. And people are often filtered through their type, and that there are some types that are more like, please tell me what I am. Please God, tell me what I am so that I can be that thing and know what I need to be. And then there's some types that are like, yeah, no, you don't get to tell me who I am. But and I do think that the reactive types like 486, that those tend to be in that space. But my particular kind of approach, you know, approaching of the Enneagram was absolutely by accident. So I was at Esalen and the end of February of 2020. That's a retreat center. Yeah, it's a place in Big Sur they do. It's a great hotsprings retreat center. And they do lots of different workshops there, which is how you go there. And I was there for a mosaic workshop. I had recently recovered from a bad injury and I wanted to go think about what making art meant for me. Gotcha. So there I was. And there were two other workshops. One was a grief yoga workshop. The other workshop was an Enneagram workshop. Okay. Are we talking 2020? Okay, okay, so it's like the first EPP with us. Yeah, workshop. Gotcha. And I was it was right before the pandemic. And so we used to still be able to share rooms at SLN. So you could get a bunk bed. So I had a bunk bed room and in that room was Laura, who you've spoken to on the podcast. Yeah. And she and I were the first two people in the room claiming our bunk beds. And I said, What are you here for? And she said, Oh, I'm here for the Enneagram workshop. And I suppose it was thought it was Enneagram I didn't know there was an A. And then I just wrote it. I was like, those people are going to do their thing. I'm gonna do my thing. But the very first meal, I ran into Laura again, and she said, come sit with us. We're sitting outside.

Clay Tumey: 5:10

Such a Laura thing today. Absolutely. In a good way. I mean,

Djinnaya Stroud: 5:14

and I really think Laura really moves in the flow of the universe, and is one of those people who gathers the souls that needed to be gathered. It's one of her things she just does by being. And she pulled me into this group of people. And I loved everybody at the table, way more than I loved mosaic or any of the people that I wasn't connecting with my art class. Yeah. So we just hung out. And as we hung out, everybody talked about their type. Everybody talked about what they were learning about their type. And then they said, Do you have a type? And I said, No. Yeah, thank you. Yeah, I love you all. But that thing, you can't, you can't tell me who I am. Right? You can't tell me who I am. And of course, that button started. Oh, my God, she feels that way. She could be a Type Eight. Oh, no. Maybe she was a Type Four. No, maybe she's less. And so

Clay Tumey: 6:08

did you hear them? Kind of? Oh, yeah. It was not. It was like,

Djinnaya Stroud: 6:14

fighting it, you know, which I mean, is, is kind of that Enneagram at esslyn thing, which is another aside, we're like the most annoying group at SLN. Because we just sit and talk and less number Cove we sound like one of those weird late night number radio stations. That's pretty much as but yeah, so I didn't really fall into it. But we had a whole week. And by the end of the week, I started listening to the way that they used to type. And what it became very clear to me was they weren't trying to tell me who I was. They were asking me,

Unknown: 6:50

how do we be kind to you? How do we make space for you?

Djinnaya Stroud: 6:56

What is the easiest way for us to connect in with you? And they were willing to do the rest of the work and just meet me where I was. And that was what ended up happening. But they weren't trying to box me in. They were trying to connect. Alright.

Clay Tumey: 7:13

That's pretty big. Yeah, it's a little more inviting than just bashing you over head over the head with a quiz or a test or something like that.

Djinnaya Stroud: 7:21

Yeah. So I went home, and the world shut down. And I took the quiz. And the quiz came back and gave me a set of types. And I picked the top two off the list, which was five and seven. Okay, that's interesting, interesting. And I, I emailed one of the people I had met, and I said, Hey, I've taken this, this test, and I talked to my family and my family, my son has decided that I am a Type Seven. Okay? And she goes, You are not a Type Seven. And I was like, Okay, fine, back to the drawing board. So I went through all of it. And then after going back and forth between those two, I pulled the third one off the list, which was Type Four. And I read in the blue book, the wisdom of Enneagram. I read it, and I got partway through.

Unknown: 8:15

And I was offended. I was disturbed. And it

Djinnaya Stroud: 8:21

wasn't I was disturbed with what I was hearing, I was disturbed that somebody wrote these words that somebody said them out loud, because they were so private, and so shameful for me that to see them on a written page was

Unknown: 8:39

up ending. And I was all Oh, this is me.

Clay Tumey: 8:47

I've heard it said before people describing their process and getting close to the way that you described it. But we were in prison. So the way that it came out there was felt like somebody got a hold of my file. Is it anything like that? Or like people knew a little bit more about you than they were supposed to? Or that you can send it to them knowing or anything like that?

Unknown: 9:10

Yeah, it was. I think I do.

Djinnaya Stroud: 9:16

Really, I have done a really good job. And I'm learning to do a less good job of putting everything together in a together looking package. And not being transparent about the parts that are I can create a character that is like an emulation of the parts that are rough that I feel people can connect with. But I'm not usually forthcoming about the things that I struggle with that I really struggled. And so if you asked me what I struggle with, I could give you a whole list of things. But these things I was reading, they were the things I really struggled like they were really the worst work. And when you, I was able to read it and see it, sit with it, and have it reflected back at me. It was the first time that I was able to understand that I was trying to solve the problems I was presenting, and not the problems I actually had. I was trying to do work that I already knew the beginning in the middle on the end of and I wasn't doing the work, I didn't know how to start.

Clay Tumey: 10:30

I want to stay there and ask more questions. I also want to take a quick aside here and ask. So the Type Seven thing the Type Five thing, were you able to make sense of that later? Why did those show up on the test or the quiz the questionnaire? Why did those show up so so much?

Djinnaya Stroud: 10:47

Well, a Type Seven is easy. For me. I I've often said if you can retake me as a Type Seven, I'm there for it, I would love to put on that mantle and run around, I like intensity a lot, which is Type Four thing. I'm also a sexual for so intensity is, is my jam from all directions. And so experience for me is a necessary part of life. And as we know about kind of the the social instincts, this other dimension of the type. It's where we leak, right, it's where we drop our energy. And so for me to do that, I seek an intensity, I seek a new experience, I seek Joy, I seek all this stuff, and and I expend my energy there that I should be using for myself. And that feels a lot like a Type Seven, in its own way. Like it feels a lot in this Type Seven thing of, you know, always looking for the next new thing. Also the Type Seven on the Type Four, we're all on this harmony triangle of the idealist. So it's Type Four, Type Seven and Type One. And I like to say Westworld has this line, I choose to see the beauty in the world. And I'm like, That's the idealist triangle. Like we're all sitting there being like, I choose to see the beauty in the world. And I choose to see that it's not quite here yet. And so we're always reaching. And no, I have that in common with Type Seven. And I can tell you a whole other thing about how important I think fours and sevens are for each other. But that doesn't answer your question about sevens and fives have a really strong five wing, I like to say I have a really nerdy five wing. Okay. I would have never thought I know it's so shocking. It doesn't show up about me at all. But you know, Type Five and Type Four were both withdrawn types, we turn our energy inward. And we keep this very intense internal life. And it can be hard for fours and fives and nines. But I think especially fours and fives stuck at the bottom of the Enneagram like down here and let lead depths like we have this place that we get into and letting people in there or coming back out of there can be really hard. And fives get lost in this world of the mind on the inside. And fours get lost in this world of the heart on the inside. But we think with our hearts, and we feel with our minds. Interesting. And so like we can do those things. Right. And so it's very easy to confuse that experience. And I think I still have a moment. Are you like, Are you sure? I'm not a five? Except, of course, you know, I'm married to a five. Right? And so every time that I say, Are you sure I'm not a five? Because no, you're not a five?

Clay Tumey: 13:56

Right? There's there's some clear differences that show up in ways that are unavoidable sometimes. And I actually I'd like to talk to him one of these days, you mentioned to you talking about the withdrawn energy and going in with five and four and also nine shares a shares that with us, and a question popped into my head, and then we'll put you on the spot ask a question. I don't even know the answer to this. But I'm curious. If you if you like what is the difference when when people talk about withdrawn types and where we withdraw our energy goes in? And all the descriptions that are that or what we learn when we study Enneagram types and all that stuff. What's the difference between that kind of withdrawn and when the world talks about us being introverted? Or you're an introvert or this that and the other? Are those? Do you see those as the same? Or are they different and what else comes up

Unknown: 14:49

for you on that? I think they're very different. Yeah, I

Djinnaya Stroud: 14:57

think that's like common Miskin. perception, right? Because whether you're introverted or extroverted, that is, that is how you are interacting with the world on an action level, right?

Clay Tumey: 15:13

That's such a smart way to put it on an action level, like what happens in the moment.

Djinnaya Stroud: 15:17

But what you're doing with your energy can be very different. Like, I think I'm an extroverted withdrawn type. Yeah. You know, I I can be fun at a party if I need to be I will talk about something that's really off color if you've let me talk long enough, but I will be really fun while I do it. Yeah, I'm an extrovert. But I, my energy pulls back. There is a whole part of me that is inside, but is watching that unfold. And it takes me longer to bring that part of me forward to meet the extra.

Clay Tumey: 15:57

That's a good I'm still in that. I'm memorizing that. And I'm telling people I get so I get so twisted. Hearing folks use them interchangeably, withdrawn and introverted. I don't I don't think I'm an introvert. I certainly don't think I'm an extrovert. But the circumstances kind of change how I roll. Or like the way the way that I heard is the action level is like, there's no constant thing. Like I'm a withdrawn type. But sometimes I get out there sometimes I get on stage, sometimes I do a podcast. Yeah. Right. And sometimes I go hide in the closet and just do something else. And the whole idea of of introverted and withdrawn being synonymous, it just drives me bonkers. Thanks for talking through that. You did. I struggle with that. Okay, so going back to you, you've found your type you've. And I'm just gonna say out loud, that I'm a little blown away by how recently, your journey started, I just assumed in all of our interactions on Zoom, and different classes, this and the other, I assume that you had been around the work for several years, and then recently came into the EPP space, I didn't realize that at the beginning of 2020 2020. To understand again, I didn't realize at the beginning of 2020, the Enneagram was not part of your life. By the end of it, it was Yeah. And that's I'm blown away for several reasons that we'll eventually get into, I'm sure. But I just That's wild to me, that's impressive. I feel I I experienced you as an as a, as a as a longtime Enneagram steadier, you just have that kind of you exude intelligence and wisdom in that. So, so going back to you found your type, you you know where you are, and some other things are starting to make sense. What are the next steps for you in terms of your Enneagram work personally or even getting involved with EPP any anything around that was worth sharing.

Djinnaya Stroud: 18:01

So one of the people that I met at SLN, Meredith sent me an email and said, Hey, so EPP is doing this thing. And it's called Nine prisons one key it's kind of a trial, they're trying it out, they invited me to do it. I don't have time. I thought you might

Unknown: 18:23

be interested. And I said, sure.

Djinnaya Stroud: 18:30

But before that, sure, there was a lot of like, No, thank you. I don't have time to do this. I have the stuff that's going on, you know, I don't really know what to do by line was like, Sure. And it was it was before we moved to the donation based tuition model. So there was also a matter of me trying to figure out the finances of everything to pay for the class. And I showed up, actually, no backup,

Unknown: 18:57

registered for the class.

Djinnaya Stroud: 19:01

I thought I knew why I was taking the class. And it was to learn more about myself to try and figure out why I was creating so much suffering in my life. But about a week before I started the class, I had a huge falling out with my youngest child.

Unknown: 19:18

And and he left

Djinnaya Stroud: 19:21

my house. My adult child lives in the house and I said something so hurtful. On top of so many things, I'd say that were so hurtful, that he chose to leave the house and go into the beginning of the pandemic with no place to stay. Because he didn't feel safe with me. And it took me a really long time to sit with that to understand that any story I could tell myself about how what I had said was okay, or how he misunderstood didn't matter. In the moment what mattered was that something was broken. And it needed to be fixed. And I couldn't fix it. Until I understood why, like, why? You know why I did what I did, like, what was I doing? Who was in the driver's seat. So by the time we started nine prisons, one key, I knew why I was in that class. And it was no longer to sort of understand out understand why I was suffering, but to understand the entire ecosystem of who I was in my life, and my family and my community, and how I could be more present in that space. So I went to my very first IP 1k class, the pilot, so it's very different. We're all in one room, I think we had like two cohorts split up. And I cried the whole time, and came downstairs, where Jason's office was my husband. I sat down the chair, and he says,

Unknown: 20:58

You look weird. And I

Djinnaya Stroud: 21:01

think I joined a cult. Should I be conservative? Absolutely not. So it was just it was so wasn't the sort of thing that I did. And yet I knew I was all the way and like, I knew I wasn't. And I went through the nine prisons when key and I finish it, and I said, it'd be like, I have a superpower. Like I, I understand so much more about what I'm doing, why I'm doing it, I'd have this. You know, this magic second that we talked about, between what happens to you and how you respond. I learned to respond. For the first time in my life. Somebody said, you can respond. You don't have to react, take a breath, take a minute, take 20 breaths. And it changed everything for me. And I remember in the debrief, like the last class, we unpacked, I said, you know, I feel like I have this superpower. And I know I'm gonna walk away from this class, and this superpower is gonna go away. And Susan interrupted me and said,

Clay Tumey: 22:05

a lot of it. Yeah. Such as Susan question, by the way. So I hear it. Yeah. But what if,

Djinnaya Stroud: 22:14

what if? And so I just knew I was like, Okay, well, I'm in. I don't know what we're doing. I'm in. Yeah, you know. So I don't know, if you want to volunteer anything. There's an email. Yeah. So I emailed on the website, nobody responded. Within five days, I went and tracked people down, emailed them there directly.

Clay Tumey: 22:34

We're getting better at that. But slightly, absolutely. This was

Djinnaya Stroud: 22:37

also remember, this is the beginning of the pandemic, by this point. This is like, May of 2020. Nobody's paid their taxes. Nobody knows what to do. Everybody's convinced that the world's gonna open up in about two months, like, everything.

Clay Tumey: 22:50

So it's adorable as bless our heart was our heart. That's just wow.

Djinnaya Stroud: 22:56

So it was, you know, but I knew I can't, I have to be part of this thing. I feel like this is going to be a very long story.

Clay Tumey: 23:07

I have, I'll tell you, I have 25 hours left, on my desk here. So.

Djinnaya Stroud: 23:14

So there's this other piece of this. That's an important part of this journey, which is I didn't walk away from EPP and say, Okay, well, now I'm gonna go take classes in the narrative tradition, or now I'm gonna go take a workshop with us or now I'm going to do this, I very clearly wanted to stay with EPP. And that goes back to me as a young bright eyed Community College student majoring in psychology and and I was really interested in the time about why our prison system worked the way it was, works, doesn't work the sales the way it does, and what the history was behind that. And so it was really studying like the history behind that and trying to understand these things and I was really involved in anti death penalty work and activism. And one of the things that people ask you whenever you do work against the death penalty is well what if somebody murdered one of your child? Wouldn't you want this wouldn't this be what you want? And I said, no.

Clay Tumey: 24:36

You're taking this argument by the way, I'm just saying it out loud is so fucking ridiculous it is to even to ask Does that

Djinnaya Stroud: 24:44

question like how would I even know what I was gonna like? Stuff like

Clay Tumey: 24:49

that up that question. So have a conversation but that question, okay, I think I've said enough.

Djinnaya Stroud: 24:58

So I would say now And you can see that the other person was like, Yeah, whatever, right. But one time I said now on somebody said, Well, what would you want?

Unknown: 25:07

Right? A much better question, I think.

Djinnaya Stroud: 25:10

And I thought about it. And I thought about it, because I can't just give a quick response to anything. I just said something on the tape to you.

Clay Tumey: 25:19

I mean, it adds to the texture of what people experienced, while they're, you know, listening but.

Unknown: 25:25

And I said, I would want them to understand. Now, I

Djinnaya Stroud: 25:31

want to look in the eyes of somebody and see them die. I want to look in the eyes of someone and see that they understand what the effect of their actions was, I want to understand, I want to see that they understand why they did what they did, I want to say that whatever made them do that is something that they've healed from, and that they've healed from what they've done. Because that would be part of my healing. And I really wanted to do that work. When I was young and bright eyed, I really wanted to go and do that work. But you know what, it's hard. It's hard to get into the system, California had at the time, this is in the 90s had this very clear, punishment based penal system in the adult code. And then in the juvenile code, you had a lot of programming and things like that, but, but we also decided within nine days that we were no longer going to try juveniles as juveniles, which is bizarre, and I got frustrated, and I gave up, quite honestly. And I went on with my life. And when I heard Susan talk about the work that she was doing, and when I heard her talk about her first time in Texas, and sort of the way that she just kept trying to do this thing. There was a feeling inside a very complex feeling inside of me, one of which is shame of like, what the hell tonight you couldn't just go and do the thing. And you know, honestly, no, I could not have, but also this gratitude that somebody else was doing this thing I had imagined. And so when I signed up to be what we now call a builder, it was because I wanted to figure out how do I support the people that are doing that work? Because I want that

Unknown: 27:26

work, tap? You have skills to

Clay Tumey: 27:29

like you do? Like, like tech likes beyond the like normal skills, like tech skills, and you can do your you have things to bring to the table.

Djinnaya Stroud: 27:40

Yeah, yeah. And I, I have continued to show up for EPP when I can and be like, This is my basket of tools. Yeah. What do you need? You want to talk product strategy? I'm here. Like, you want to talk websites? I'm here. So. So yeah, that's kind of where I thought that story was gonna end.

Clay Tumey: 28:02

Thanks for sharing all that. And there's a lot more to cover to eventually. So after nine p 1k. So for the curious who might not know who are listening, nine p 1k. Is our I don't know if it's going to be available? I don't know, I don't know where it's going to be in the future. But where it has been recently, last couple years. It's kind of our entry level program. That's where it's nine prisons, one keep talking to the types. I won't call it basic, but I will call it fundamental, is that fair? Elementary. And then after that is another class called path to freedom. And they have to be taken in that order. You can't take path to freedom first, and then I'm doing okay. It's just not how it works. Yeah. So you eventually took past freedom. Okay. And then after that, if, well, we'll get to that, that later was path of freedom, like for you.

Djinnaya Stroud: 28:51

I take path to freedom twice. Okay. The first time, it was a lot of things, you know, nine prisons, one key is very, it's the one is, this is your time, this is how it works. These are the lines in between, you know, four goes to one goes to this goes here, you know. And when you get into path to freedom, all of a sudden, you're talking about the triads and you're talking about trauma, and you're talking about all this stuff that I didn't want to talk about, right? Quite honestly.

Clay Tumey: 29:25

It leaves Enneagram type descriptions. And it goes to what happened engineers life. Yeah, yeah. That's super fun for some people.

Djinnaya Stroud: 29:34

Yeah, not at all. And so I started with my resistance, pretty much right off the bat. And by the time that we got to the point where normally if I were on the inside, they would have me write a bio on for a path to freedom where you write a timeline, and I sat and stared at that piece of paper for so long. And I came into my pod group which blessedly, it was full of wonderful humans because we all went around and

Clay Tumey: 30:04

shared. Shout out to wonderful humans. Yes.

Djinnaya Stroud: 30:07

Sharon shared how our experience was going with the homework of the week. And everybody said, oh, you know, this is my process. And this was my process, and got to me, and I held up that piece of paper, and I have said, Fuck this shit.

Unknown: 30:20

I'm out.

Djinnaya Stroud: 30:22

I don't want to talk about this. I don't want to talk about my childhood trauma. I've been to therapy, I don't want to talk about it. I'm not that person anymore. And it was so hard for me. And Cynthia, who's a fantastic guide really? Kind of talked me down off the wall. So she the pod guide and your group know, she was saying my path to freedom group. Okay. Yeah. So she okay, this is like, but we didn't have fun guides. We were just we were just left on the wall Wilds on our own. And, yeah, so she, she helped talk me down. And I managed to get five things on my timeline. It was really hard. And it wasn't until after path of freedom that I took that timeline, and did a lot of work with my therapist. And we, I put it in a spreadsheet because I am the nerd that I am. And that lets you stick lines. And in between. I started unlocking a lot of the kind of fugue state stuff, a lot of things I can't remember and to talk about very well. And eventually it was 107 178 lines. Wow. And then I knew I was ready to do it all again.

Clay Tumey: 31:50

What's that feeling? Because as I know, I have an idea of like, pushing through things and feel like I know what I feel like in those moments. But I if I dig my heels, like you said, Fuck this shit, I'm out. Like, that's the story of my life for like the first 30 years of my life. And then still some since then, like, I'm so familiar with the fuck that shit. I'm out. And that is like, my happy place sometimes like, and unfortunately for me, I think a lot of times when I really get there, it's a it's a permanent thing. When I'm out, I'm super out and there's no coming back. That hasn't always been true. There are times when it hasn't been true. But for the most part, that's just what's comfortable for me. So for I'm curious for you, what's it like? When you're at a point down the line, where did the thing that you said no? And then that turned into okay, I'm here? What is it? What's that experience? Like? I mean, in terms of really anything? I mean, is it is it? Is there a sense of pride? Like I got over that? Or is it a sense of like, release that, okay, I don't have to fight that or whatever anymore? Is there? Is any of that experience ringing true for you or not so much? Well,

Djinnaya Stroud: 33:04

I mean, I can only talk about my experience, I think everybody's experience on this one is different. For me, it's an unfolding. You know, we talk a lot about just sitting with the discomfort.

Unknown: 33:17

And I don't feel

Djinnaya Stroud: 33:20

any pride at having gotten there, right. I don't feel relief at having gotten there. I just got there. I just sat with the discomfort long enough that I was there.

Unknown: 33:35

And there's a cost

Djinnaya Stroud: 33:41

to that resistance, you know, when we when that resistance comes up for me.

Unknown: 33:48

I'm protecting myself,

Djinnaya Stroud: 33:50

you know, I was protecting myself from grief, I didn't know how to process I was protecting myself from grief that I felt

Unknown: 34:00

was going to make me unlovable and

Djinnaya Stroud: 34:06

and that's a reasonable thing for me to do. But there's a cost to that, which is like grief is still there. And it's it's still controlling me. And for me that the cost was the cost was I'm not doing that was too high. And I knew it. You know, like I had to have that time I had to have that reaction in the moment I had to like vent a thing. But when it was done when my reactivity was done, I knew the cost of not sitting with this discomfort is too high.

Clay Tumey: 34:39

So path to freedom round two, path to freedom Round

Unknown: 34:42

Two was different.

Clay Tumey: 34:48

How much time had passed by the way? Oh no. I remember maybe nine months a year or something like that.

Djinnaya Stroud: 34:54

It was probably about nine months. You know this whole last few years. It's hard to do the timeline. I should have looked at before,

Clay Tumey: 35:01

to me on the calendar from like the beginning of 2020 until the end of 2022 is basically one year.

Djinnaya Stroud: 35:06

So I think I think that I mean, I did put the freedom really early and the creation of paths of freedom. So I have a feeling it was either the end of 2020 or the beginning of 2021. And I did path to freedom part two, in 2022. Okay. I know that. I think I think I know that

Clay Tumey: 35:29

for the listener who can't see what I just saw a question where it just popped up right in front of me. Literally, literally. Yeah, that was the that was the punctuated phase of maybe.

Djinnaya Stroud: 35:42

So yeah, but I mean, a lot of things. A lot of things happened in that period of time. I continued doing my work. I continued studying on my own. I kept a really steady presence practice. I, I went to back to epsilon, and did the part two of the workshop that everybody had been there. Oh, and I'm one of the EPP weirdos. I was one of the EPP where yes. So I had I had graduated to being an APB, were now instead of just an EPP group. And, yeah, so at the at that retreat, that was the first time that we talked about guiding, which, of course, is a lighter topic, but yeah, Laura and Rick brought it up while we were talking, you know, do you think

Clay Tumey: 36:30

about Type Seven? And is she talking about Laura's Type Seven mirror that mirror the Type Seven. Rick now Type Six? Oh, no different

Djinnaya Stroud: 36:35

Meredith? Okay. Yeah. Meredith Type Four. And when I went through a path of freedom, it felt like everybody there was on the guide track in a way that I hadn't realized I was on, you know, everybody, all of a sudden, was a professional life coach, or a therapist or this and I was just doing my work and being a part of this thing I hadn't, I don't think I'd realized I was on a track, right. So I said not yet. And part of that was that when I got to the end, a path of freedom that seemed the direction that everyone was going, and I knew that if I went to that note, neck, if I went to that next direction, it would be because I want it to be that. And let that was not the right place to be. That was not my I should become a guy, not because I want to be somebody else. Hello. But instead, because I had something to offer was

Clay Tumey: 37:38

hope nobody's in jail. I can't hear what they're saying where the call is coming from, but that's fine. That'll be done soon. There we go. All right. Speaking of imperfection.

Djinnaya Stroud: 37:48

Okay, where was I? Oh, so I was like, you know, my wanting to be whatever I've imagined as a guide is not a good reason for me to be a gut. Yeah. And said, I really found it on this whole timeline thing, y'all, I gotta go back and do it again. So I went back and did it again. And I was different person approaching it. For me, girth is a spiral. So you come back to the same place, but you're a different person when you get there.

Unknown: 38:17

And

Djinnaya Stroud: 38:19

it was good. Material landed differently. I was at a very different place in my life. And at the end of path, a freedom of time. I was ready. And I knew I was ready. And I knew I was ready, because I didn't have anything I wanted to be next. Yeah. And I knew I was ready because that growth is a spiral, you come back around. But if you don't take the time to share what you're learning, if you don't take the time to come from the withdrawn and out into the world to offer somebody else a hand around that circle. You just get stuck in a circle. And just as natural as breathing. It was time for me to do something else. And I just decided

Unknown: 39:19

that's where I am with this work now. I just take next steps

Clay Tumey: 39:34

Hey, y'all, it's clay and we will get back to the conversation here in just a few minutes. But first, we're gonna pause and share a few words of appreciation for EPP program manager Riley Brown, it's hard to imagine the things that would go haywire if Riley were not involved. She's incredibly competent on all the back end things that you probably don't ever see. If you've Take any of our online programming or really anything, I mean, there's a chance that you've crossed paths, whether you realize it or not with Riley, I really enjoy chatting with her. Anytime there's been an issue where I've had to ask her a question, I just just just the kind of person who can take direct communication and give it right back to me in a way that I understand it. And also, like I said, just incredibly competent. And we're a better organization because of her. Also, as you may notice, we have been super active here recently on social media. Recently, this has been a thing we're on Facebook, I believe. We're also on Tik Tok. And we're also on Instagram, of course. And all of that activity is because of Riley. Yes, there's a few people doing a few things. But Riley is carrying the bulk of that. And it's just really nice to have a person like that, again, who is so competent and so willing to do the work without really getting a whole lot of public praise for that. And so that's what I'm here doing now. I'm just here to tell you how flippin awesome I think Riley Brown is. And it's not just me. Here are a few other folks from the project.

Susanne Gawreluk: 41:10

Riley Brown is kind proficient, efficient, a delight to work with extremely patient. My favorite lines Riley is Whoa, whoa, whoa, wait, wait, wait, let's back up because she has a mastermind. When it comes to anything tech zone. Google was the matrix markup IO slack, whatever it is. If she doesn't know she finds out, she's always willing to center us and just beautifully brings us back to our breath in our presence, so that we can get shit done. She is just stellar and has a cute cat that walks across their keyboard. Thank you Riley for just being you. We appreciate you so much at EPP you are a gem.

Laura Hooper: 41:55

Riley is such a support. She's incredibly conscientious. Whether you're someone inside of EPP or someone reaching out, just for some questions on you know, potentially being part of the project. She is just exceptional. She can drop into a meeting, invite us all into presence, and then quickly move into all the details for things that really need to happen to make programs work. She has such huge capacity to hold all the different pieces and how they relate to one another. I'm so grateful she's here. And I love that she shares her heart, her heart with the project in the ways that she does. Thanks for being you, Riley.

Jason White: 42:38

I appreciate Riley so much. She is able to hold the big picture and hold it and include everyone in it and keep us going keep us on task in a cheerful open, kind way. And she is able to get right down into the details and perfectly happy spending all day doing our repetitive tasks. If it's meaningful and contributing to the whole, she is transparent, she is courageous. She is willing to she's curious, she is willing to jump into nearly anything that is significant and meaningful. And give it a try. And I'm so glad that I have met Riley that EPP has found her and that she has found us.

Jan Shegda: 43:30

Oh my goodness, Riley Brown, I have had such a great pleasure working with Riley this last year. And unfortunately a lot of times that means throwing her last second requests, which she always handles with grace and with competence and the seemingly magical ability to get everything done. Even under very tight deadlines. I've also really enjoyed working with Riley in meetings where there may be some kind of mean crisis might be a large word, but some kind of mini issue that we really need to deal with. And she brings such a calming grounding presence and a really focused project management approach where she just says, Okay, well, what are our goals here? What do we need to tackle first? And it's it's really systematized and professional and competent. And I totally look to Riley for those things. And I just absolutely love working with her and think she's such a valuable resource here around EPP. Yeah, I would almost tell everybody anytime you have something you need help with ask Riley. I don't want her to be totally flooded with more requests. Selfishly I like being able to do that myself but rally if you're listening, you're amazing. So great to work with and really appreciate all your gifts.

Jodi Norton: 44:53

Riley. Oh my goodness. I am so grateful for Riley since she he kind of came on the scene, she has been an enormous and enormous support to EPP to myself to the public programs to the French team, you name it. Riley's been involved in so many things and has really had a huge impact. So yeah, I am just delighted to work with her. And you know, I just appreciate her. She's very smart, and very resourceful. She's not afraid to just jump in and figure it out. And I just really appreciate that about her. And she's fun to work with to, you know, since she's kind of taken over the implementation group. She just brings so much lightness and fun and, and efficiency, of course, but yeah, it's just been really fun. Having her there and being a part of that, and, and taking the lead. So yeah, I really love working with her and really appreciate her so much.

Clay Tumey: 46:17

So, part of something you said a minute ago that I'd like to know more about, because you're talking about, you had your own, you didn't have aspirations of guiding, right? You were doing your work you were you were doing your studying, and all this stuff on your own. And a lot of folks who listen, our EPP peeps, like there are folks who are familiar. And then they know what goes down in this and the other. There are folks who listen to the podcast, who they listen from the safety of their homes, so that they can learn a little bit more about the Enneagram. And not so much. I mean, there's obviously something to learn about EPP too. But this is what I've, what I've come to learn is that this is a lot of people's first step. So I think for that person, it's likely that they may be hearing you talk about your own process your own studying your own, like the things that you were doing, aside from class, and in, maybe are asking themselves like, how do I do that? Or maybe would want to ask you, what could I do what? So I guess the question is all that to say, what what kind of things? What would you say to someone who is on their journey trying to find answers? They're curious, they're open, but they also don't want to go do a whole last class. And they want to, they want to know, where can I find answers from the safety of my house, from my computer, or my phone or whatever, without, without the risk of getting hurt by being on panel and all the other big stuff that comes with getting out there in the world. So what would you say to those folks?

Djinnaya Stroud: 47:48

Well, it's a tricky question. Because the first thing I would say is, there's all kinds of opportunities to do that. The wisdom of the Enneagram is an incredible book, you can read it, you can watch videos to go with it. The back of that book has lots of exercises, you can do

Clay Tumey: 48:08

Read it and weep.

Djinnaya Stroud: 48:10

I mean, you can you can cry, you can go to therapy, and like you can find a therapist who's Linda Enneagram and do that there. But But yeah, there's a lot of exercises in that book. You can, you know, there's so many classes online where you don't have to show your face.

Unknown: 48:28

And that's eventually not going to be enough.

Djinnaya Stroud: 48:34

You know, we say, it's not just difficult to do the work alone, it's impossible. And that's true. So when I talk about that spiral of growth, right, you can you can do that studying by yourself, but soon you're just walking in a circle. And then at that point, you have to find other people to walk that circle with you to reflect back to let the understanding not just be about your understanding, but their understanding. And then you move up that circle a little bit further, you move up the spiral,

Clay Tumey: 49:10

like the visual of walking, the visual of walking that circle, and at some point, you're going to have to find some somebody to walk the circle with you or maybe even hop in there. Shargel. Yeah. At some point, yeah, I like that. Thanks. That's a it's an odd question. I admit it's one that has, like, there's no magic answer for some random folks. Just listening to the podcast. Yeah. So Thanks for Thanks for going there. So GTP the next step along the way here. Next step. Yeah. And if I can only I've been through all of our programs, I've gone through it from a different angle, because I'm usually an ambassador in the room. So I'm very familiar with the curriculum, what's the process all this stuff, but I'm also not a participant. So I've gone through it. I've only seen it from my side. That's, that's true with why I've gone through 990 1k and I've gone through past freedom enough to get it a little bit. But with the guy training program, I have no experience other than my own. So I'm, I want to know everything about the guy training program, what it's like to go through, as a participant talked on the previous episode with POD guides, who've also done both because they've gone through GTP, obviously, because now they're guides. And then now they've gone through as a pod guide. So I'm just I'm just curious, in general, what what it's like, even the application process, I actually don't know. Like, how everything quite works and and how are you chosen? Is it? Is it a? Is it a lottery? Is it just showing that you are the one that they want? And then what is the class like?

Unknown: 50:47

Okay, small question.

Djinnaya Stroud: 50:49

No question. Just a tiny little one that I can wrap up real fast. Yeah. Okay. Great. Cool. So the application process is pretty extensive, you have to answer a lot of questions about where you were in your process, where you are in your growth, where you think you're gonna be what sort of support you have, what sort of ability you're gonna have to give back on the other side of this? Yeah, and I can't speak to how they make the decisions. Because I was not in that room. Yeah. Thankfully, that would have been really weird. I've heard is not super fun. I bet it's not super fun.

Unknown: 51:30

I

Djinnaya Stroud: 51:32

I realized after I sent my application that if it had been an admissions letter, it would have been dear Admissions Board. Yeah, here are some reasons why you should probably not. Perhaps you should tell me not right now. Thank you very much your for your consideration. Well, Jeanette, that was pretty much it. Yeah. I knew it was a it was not a great time for me to do it. I was going through some really major life transitions. In July, my, my children both moved out, and we moved out of the home we've lived in for, I don't know, 18 years. So. So I was going through a lot of changes and thought, well, it's a terrible time for me to take on this big process. And then I got accepted. And I said, Oh, yes, yeah, I guess this is what we're doing now. And, you know, in sort of true style in my life, I got a letter and I waited about a day and a half before I told Jason and he said, Oh my gosh, you must be so happy. You must be so honored. I'm like,

Clay Tumey: 52:46

Yeah,

Djinnaya Stroud: 52:47

I told them. I told them not to take me.

Clay Tumey: 52:52

I gave him a list of why they shouldn't accept

Djinnaya Stroud: 52:54

any reason. Yeah, so but but I knew it was once again, it's like, it's just the next step. Like, the next step shows up when you're ready. And that was the time. So I started the class. I don't know how to explain what that experience is like, in any way that's succinct. It's very different than the other classes. The other classes are.

Unknown: 53:22

about

Djinnaya Stroud: 53:24

exploring yourself, they are about being supported, and the work. They are not. They're challenging. But they're not a constant challenge. Part of freedom and nine prisons one key, they challenge you, and then they kind of pull back and support you. Guide training programs. Here's the challenge. Great, we saw what was really challenging about that challenge for you. We'd like you were to do more of that, please. Yeah.

Clay Tumey: 53:57

And there is support to be clear.

Djinnaya Stroud: 54:01

It's a really a supportive environment. It just what what we're doing is we're transmuting ourselves from what we were doing to be ready to support people who are doing that,

Clay Tumey: 54:14

which is a whole different angle. It's a whole different process. It's a whole different everything. Yeah, really. Yeah. So you're learning. Like, how to actually don't remember the first few weeks I know that once it starts to get to the practicums where you're actually doing like these practice teachings and then getting feedback and all that stuff. That's where that's those are some of my Dare I say favorite memories as as a as a as an ambassador, being part of that and all that stuff. I would imagine some of that stuff. Probably not super fun on the participant side, but I don't I can't really speak to that. I know there's there's there is work in there, but there's also a lot of actual, like curriculum. I mean, there's a lot of self work but There's also like curriculum, this is what we do. This is how you do it. Can you do it? And then you have to demonstrate. Yeah. And then you you are literally teaching to us, in this case, a screen full of folks, you know, because mostly on Zoom, it's all on Zoom actually. Yeah. And what was that? Like? I mean, your or what do you remember what your first what your first practicum was? Was on

Djinnaya Stroud: 55:23

my first practicum? I think the first practicum we did, they changed it partway through. And I know you're decided not to talk to somebody who went through the program right after the program. But I gotta tell you, a lot has happened in between time. I don't know how accurately all of this is. But I think that the first thing that we had do that was practicum, that we were given a pass redo was the tour around the Enneagram. And, like, everything that we have to do in the practicum is really condensed, they basically they time condensing it, 10 minutes to do a 15 minute lesson, you get 10 minutes to do a 15 minute lesson. Yeah. And I remember getting ready for it, and seeing how fast I could talk. Yeah,

Clay Tumey: 56:12

like an auctioneer.

Djinnaya Stroud: 56:16

And just walking around on the house trying to, to get it in the time, you know, walking up and down the hallway saying it 11 minutes and 20 seconds, 10 minutes and 45 seconds, you know, trying to get it down into this way. And I practice so much that I lost my voice. And I thought I wasn't physically physically lost my voice. And I thought I was not going to be able to speak for the practicum the next day. And I sat down and said, This is ridiculous. What am I doing to myself, it doesn't matter. Like I have to know this work. But I don't have to be perfect at this right now. And so I came in to do the thing. And I think I said, You know what, the shortest time I've managed to get this down to is 10 minutes and 35 seconds. We'll see how it goes. Stop me if you need. Yeah. And I just went. And once I went. And once I'd let go of that idea that I had to hit some ideal.

Unknown: 57:18

It was beautiful.

Djinnaya Stroud: 57:21

You know, I and I it wasn't the best tour around my Enneagram that has ever been done. But the experience of feeling what I knew inside of me come outside of me and be

Unknown: 57:32

heard was so

Djinnaya Stroud: 57:35

right. There was just something about it that felt so right.

Clay Tumey: 57:42

The D remember, do you remember any of the feedback you got from that? And to explain the process? Well? Well, I think about it to the folks who don't know, the way that it works is you have we'll say six people in a breakout room. And you have the participants say there's three participants, and then there's a PI guide, and then typically an ambassador, maybe a witness or something like that. So there's five or six folks, you do your around a trip around the Enneagram. And then you answer the question afterwards. How do you felt you did? What's something? You know, how do you feel? What did you do? Well, what's something you would do differently? And that's kind of what I call the feedback sandwich of how we roll. And then in the podcast, we'll say this, this is something that I thought you did well. And here's something that I think you could improve for next time. And it's always something for each it's never like, Well, that was all good. No recommendations, because that's not good feedback. And it's also never, hey, the whole thing sucked. And you didn't do anything good. Like that's, that's also not okay. And typically the pod guide, and then if there's an ambassador, and then it's opened up often to the other folks who are in the room. If there's if there's still time left. Do you remember any of that those early feedback sessions?

Djinnaya Stroud: 59:05

I do. But they all kind of blend together. I remember each time that I was asked to say how I did, having to stop myself and not start with what I did wrong. To actually say, you know, the question is, how was that for you? Yes. The question is not how did you do? The question is not what did you fuck up? The question is not what did you miss? The question was, how was that for you? And so learning to answer that question, to start with presence to check in and say,

Unknown: 59:41

How was that for was a great learning process of itself.

Djinnaya Stroud: 59:49

Then I remember that the feedback was really helpful. Because it lets me know that my instincts were right. Yeah. Because when I would lose whose presence when I would gloss over something when I would get distracted. Somebody always noticed and always called it out. And it was always that thing. It wasn't the mistakes that I thought I'd made. It wasn't the failure to hit some imaginary mark that got noticed. Because those imaginary marks aren't things other people have in their mind. It was my presence. And so that became the work that mean, that's the beauty of that kind of feedback is the work became

Unknown: 1:00:31

how do I stay here?

Djinnaya Stroud: 1:00:33

How do I be real with you? How do I let you be real with me? And how do I just trust that that is enough? And if it's not enough, well, we're gonna wrap back around this again, someone else has my back, someone else will say it better.

Unknown: 1:00:51

Someone else will hit the market and hit

Clay Tumey: 1:00:55

yours seeing a lot of what it takes to be a guide. And I'm I was gonna say to be a good guy, but I don't. I'm dropping the good because I don't it's not a bad guide God the guide? No, you're not. I think you're hitting on all the things that as someone who's been incarcerated, I know, you can bring all the information you want. And if you're not here, I'm not. I'm not listening. If you think you're just gonna dump a library into my head, I don't take that somewhere else. I think that's a common. It's a common thought that that folks on the inside have is I can read a book. Information is not it's not my I can go find information. But can you be here? Can you show up? Can you be real? Can you be who you are? And then in some way helped me find out to be who I am. I don't think the Enneagram is about. And correct me if if you think that this is not true, but I don't think the Enneagram is about how do I become something better? Or how do I because not about to me it's not about growing into a thing that I'm not, it's to me, it's about growing into who I am, I think who I think who we are, is enough thing is good enough. And I think that we over time, we add all this bullshit. And I have to be this and I have to be that. So to me, it's about shedding all the bullshit. And just getting back to who we are.

Djinnaya Stroud: 1:02:14

I mean, who we are isn't just enough. It's amazing. Yeah. Like who you are, who I am, whoever won you pass is, is amazing. But it's so hard in this world to be that. And so yeah, I agree that Enneagram is about letting yourself

Unknown: 1:02:37

show up that way. And then when you don't show up that way? Fine. Show up again later, right. It's good.

Clay Tumey: 1:02:52

I want to ask more questions. Also want to make sure you okay, we've been going for an hour now. That's how, that's how fast an hour goes by? Or we go or do we need to? Okay, do you still have full? Okay, awesome. Hafele? I heard that. Is there anything from there's there's a couple of things that definitely don't want to not ask about but with regard to GPA? Are there any other things that stick out about that process about getting through? Getting through the class and in all the way to the end of you have to you have to do you do have there's like a rubric. You have to check. We've talked about this in the last episode a little bit. But you have to check, you do have to check off some competency this and I can do that and prove that you can do the things. And is there anything left from GTA? Anything more that you want to talk about or mention or any thoughts come up about it?

Djinnaya Stroud: 1:03:45

I think that the thing that happens before the practicum that's also really valuable is that we do all the work of the class. So we do all the homework that we're going to assign. And we we write our own bios, and we exchange our BIOS and do bio responses for each other.

Clay Tumey: 1:04:05

This is something that they do in class. On the inside the bio process is a big part of of EPP curriculum. Yes. And I'm glad you brought that up. I totally skipped over that. What? What happens in that? And is it different than the than the timeline from path to freedom? Is it the same thing with a different flavor? What is the bio process?

Djinnaya Stroud: 1:04:29

Well, for me, it's different. For other people, it might be exactly the same. But for me, it was taking that timeline and turning it into a coherent narrative. And that for me, and this is partially type is really difficult because when I turn things into a narrative, it's really easy for me to turn them into a story right.

Unknown: 1:04:52

So, and, and I get caught up

Djinnaya Stroud: 1:04:58

in this egoic No one can possibly understand me. So I need to give you 40 pages of information about my entire life. So you can understand me, which is also not what that's about. Yeah. So. So for me, there was a lot of it was another level of the internal work that I had started. And these two runs through path to freedom. How do I write this? How do I put it in someone else's hands? And how do I do something that we don't do and path of freedom, but that we ask everybody to do on the inside? Which is handed over and wait for a response? Yeah. And man, that is a very different process.

Unknown: 1:05:38

So for me, it was, it was

Djinnaya Stroud: 1:05:43

a big culmination of the work I've done to be ready to write this thing. And to be ready to receive a response, to be open to receiving a response to let someone else respond to my story was a experience of softening that needed to happen.

Unknown: 1:06:06

It seems so vulnerable. Like it feels if it

Clay Tumey: 1:06:13

uncomfortable, I think is probably how I would describe that process. Is that accurate? For you?

Unknown: 1:06:18

Can it's very well. It's very vulnerable. Because

Djinnaya Stroud: 1:06:26

for me, I have a certain amount of, of armor, I think we all do that we enter into the world with to be okay. And in this space, you're inviting someone inside the armor. And then you're saying, if you wanted to talk about the things in here. Right, which is very different than just like, Yeah, I'm gonna share this with you. And then you just reflect back but I say, you know, it, it is it is a vulnerable space. But how can I go into a place where people are so vulnerable already? And say, Do this act of vulnerability with me? Who gets to go home? In two hours? Yeah. If I haven't done that work myself.

Clay Tumey: 1:07:14

So much of what you're saying, and I hope folks who are listening who have aspirations of being an EPP guide in the future, I hope that they hear loud and clearly what I hear, which is, you're not on this path of learning information to teach. It's not about there is information, don't get me wrong, but it's not about how can I learn this thing so that I could turn around and teach it to another person, and then continue that. It's literally the act of guiding in that you're doing a thing. And then that is preparing you for going inside? And then walking alongside folks and literally guiding them through the processes that you've already done? Absolutely,

Djinnaya Stroud: 1:07:53

and are still doing, right. It's

Clay Tumey: 1:07:55

ongoing. Now. I'm not a destination. Yeah, I'm

Djinnaya Stroud: 1:07:58

not coming in as a guide me like, well, I've done all this work. So I'll walk you through the work I've already done. I'm still doing that work, I'm still walking around the same self discovery circle, I've just done it before.

Clay Tumey: 1:08:12

And that, that, that, that meant, as a head type. I'm saying mentality, I'm sure there's a better description for it. But that coming from that angle is why there's quite a few of us spoiler alert, the few of the ambassadors and I who really believe in us, specifically you. We think that you'll be doing great things in this in this guide role. And it's one of the reasons that I wanted to talk to you about it, because I think, I think you're, you're a great example of, of who I hope we can run into more of and it's and it's for all the things that you're talking about. It's without saying directly, but it's just who you are who you've been along this journey. And and it's pretty neat knowing that you're going to be going in soon. Yeah, as an apprentice Do you know

Djinnaya Stroud: 1:09:04

the facility? San Mateo Maple Street,

Clay Tumey: 1:09:07

I think, How soon are you going in?

Djinnaya Stroud: 1:09:10

Um, nothing is confirmed on time yet, but I believe it's late March. So very soon.

Clay Tumey: 1:09:15

We could have a T shirt that says nothing is confirmed. Literally. There's a lot of there's a lot of measure, but so we have another thing. Oh, I definitely something I absolutely want to ask you about because you're only one of two people that have done this. You probably know where I'm going with that. So we have a thing called the practice patch where we it's exactly what it sounds like perspective guides or apprentices or whoever or current guides anybody really can go in and practice different teaching. And then we and by we I mean I had this idea. I've had this idea for a while I just couldn't get it approved. And then I did for for a form of practice patch where you come in to eat not you But whoever comes in teaches as a way of practicing, but the difference being that the the all the participant, all the classroom participants would be ambassadors, and only ambassadors, no other, no other witnesses, no other guides, no other anything. And I thought, you know, this would be good to just, we would try to recreate the environment as much as possible. And not intentionally disrupt and damage anyone, but just give you a taste of what prison can really be like. And the fun little Working Title I had for that, that I thought would change in didn't. It is called the class hole, which is to class with a bunch of assholes, I guess. And I, when I finally got the green light to do this, we did this in December.

Unknown: 1:10:48

And I asked,

Clay Tumey: 1:10:50

I invited to two folks what we sent it out to all the folks who were moving through to apprenticeships, so it wasn't literally open to anybody. It was DTPA apprentices or folks had moved through to apprenticeship. And you were the first one to respond and say, well, actually, do you remember what you said, when I gave you the list? This is what it is there's going to be all ambassadors is not going to be you'll it'll be years to run blah, blah, blah. And I don't remember how I described it, but I remember how you responded.

Djinnaya Stroud: 1:11:23

That sounds terrifying. I MAN Yeah.

Clay Tumey: 1:11:25

Sandwiches, like, what a response like it's so I just love that. I love that vibe. I love that. That is like that's the peep. Please take that vibe inside. Because that is a lot of the work can be I think, enhanced by just having that. Oh, that's terrifying. Sign me up. And so you were we had two sessions first, our second hour, and you were in the first hour. So you were literally the first person that we ever, ever did that with feel like talking about any of that. And what that was?

Djinnaya Stroud: 1:11:56

Well, um, you know, it was weird. It was it was very difficult. You know, you all I sued us a little bit when in the, in the practicum sessions, where she asks questions more from herself at when she was participant. So I kind of knew a little bit of what was coming. But the wall of it. Yeah, it was really tough. And it was difficult to stay present. And just for extra complications, I'd had a really bad situation happened the night before. And so I was way below the line coming into this. So I was already trying to figure out how to teach from below the line. And then there was a wall of resistance against me.

Unknown: 1:12:50

And I, I

Djinnaya Stroud: 1:12:55

intentionally chose something when I think I could I thought I could finish. You got to choose the topic. Yes, I got to pick the topic. So I chose origins of personality. And I figured that headspace for lots of back and forth, and had space for me to drop out and re enter the material. And it went, Okay, it was not the best guide work I've ever done. And, and at the end of it all, when I was unpacking it, I thought it was challenging. But I don't know that it replicated what you were trying to replicate for a number of reasons. And one of them is when I landed in that room and looked at who was in the Zoom windows. These are people I adore and who I feel so safe with. And that's not the reality. When I walk into a new class, you know, there's you like, you're you all are my family, like, like you have my back. And if it had been too much if I had broken down into tears, I'd been like okay, well we'll wait I can't you all want to have my back. So it was a very safe environment to try that out. But it wasn't the environment because like everything in EPP it was so full of love and so full support. But I was able to see what got me like what got under my skin the moments where the reactivity happened first

Clay Tumey: 1:14:34

and did that happen?

Djinnaya Stroud: 1:14:40

I don't know that he did it on purpose. But you know, we introduce ourselves with our name, our burnout and our type and Dustin who's been in enough classes with me probably to no one. I use she her and they them pronouns. My world is very gender queer pronouns are are very important to me. Like, it's really important to me. And he right off the bat was like, I don't do any of that pronoun stuff. I like girls, but I was all you must be fucking kidding me like to come up with on one side of like, I don't want to have this discussion and on the site like the my natural reactivity and plays from that, but also this feeling of like, Dustin? No, that's my button did you have to push that button? So yeah, so that came up and then that was a good thing go like that has that has always been something that I've realized I need to work with going into guiding like there are you'll run into that for sure. I will absolutely run into that. And I will go ahead, you know, I will run into people who are incredibly homophobic or who are incredibly racist, and I have to make space like I still have to have, you know, unconditional positive regard means unconditional positive regard. And that is an internal process that not everybody can take on, you know, and so and I wasn't even sure I could take on. And so it has been a process. And that is an area I know I have to work.

Clay Tumey: 1:16:13

I can't speak for for Destin. So I don't know if it was intentional to push that button. I do know that that is I mean, I saw that in San Diego two weeks ago, where, you know, that's part of introducing how we introduce ourselves, you know, we do we do talk about pronouns. And it's it's, it's, it's not so much a requirement of you will, you will say what I say you have to pick something and say it's not so much that it's we're allowing us we're providing a safe space for folks to identify themselves. Yeah. And fine. If you don't like it, then skip it. Right. But you're not going to shit on other people. Right. Right. And so I think it's a, it's a fun, we'll have another, we'll have more conversations about it. Class Hall is a thing that we're going to do. Yeah. And I want to I want to revisit that stuff. And I think it actually be good for all of us to have a call together and talk through it. But that's, I mean, it's a thing. Yeah. And it's fun, it's fun to be shown, hey, here's this thing I don't like, how do I deal with it?

Djinnaya Stroud: 1:17:09

Right? And going through that, you know, getting feedback at the end, once again, you know, this is how we work. And getting the feedback from Sue. That's I, I didn't feel the divine spark. For me, I didn't feel it, it's important. And I didn't feel it.

Unknown: 1:17:29

And

Djinnaya Stroud: 1:17:31

once again, I was pretty below the line. So I was really conscious of this, you know, reactivity. Okay, Type One sure, being good on the inside is important to you, I get it, right. And like, I felt the reactivity I want. thing that matters, whatever that was write that down. And when I came back to it, I realized that she was 100%. Right? And the reason that nobody could feel the divine spark am I talking about the divine spark was because I couldn't feel I wasn't there, I was below line. I, I struggle with the Divine Spark is concept. And I went back and completely changed the way I teach the divine spark at the beginning of origins of personality, the way I talk about it, which is that, you know, normally when we say this is the Divine Spark, it is at the core of all of us. It is you before you are you some people call it you know, God spirits or the Holy Spirit or the buddha mind, and it's all the stuff you know, we have this thing. But I've added on this idea that that's not all it is because when I'm here saying that it's like when I'm talking now, like there's people listening to this and if I tell you, deep inside of you at the core of you is the actual you know, it is untouched, it is perfection. It is your essence and it is an valuably beautiful. And there is a whole set of people that just heard that and said, What a bunch of

Unknown: 1:19:10

bullshit. And

Djinnaya Stroud: 1:19:15

I mean, honestly, three out of seven days in a week. I think it's bullshit too. But like we do this thing when we sent her that we talked about bringing our attention back to the breath, right?

Unknown: 1:19:28

Notice that you're breathing right.

Djinnaya Stroud: 1:19:32

Your breath was always there. It's been moving in and out of us since the day you were born and you just didn't notice it. That is your divine spark. It's just there. You don't have to believe in it. It's just there that's so good.

Clay Tumey: 1:19:52

Are you down to do the class all again and say all that

Djinnaya Stroud: 1:19:54

Sure. Sounds terrifying. I mean, it is

Clay Tumey: 1:19:59

so it I mean, I don't have a follow up to that. I just, I just want to appreciate that, that, that you were willing to go through all that and get to that. I think it's amazing. I think it's I think it's good shit, as I say, very informally. Thanks. And there are like you said, there are people who hear that and go Yeah, I don't know about all that. And hopefully they can just hit rewind, go listen to it a few more times. Yeah.

Djinnaya Stroud: 1:20:26

And if not, we'll all wrap back around. Catch you

Clay Tumey: 1:20:29

next time around. Yeah. A couple more things I want to talk to you about. And one of those is San Quentin, where you recently went in to experience graduation for class there. And as I understand was your first time going in? Is that true?

Djinnaya Stroud: 1:20:46

Yeah, yeah, it was. I've, I've been to different facilities in the Bay Area before but usually a picnic tables, visiting people who are on the inside. I have other spaces. So visitor spaces, so kind of a little different, like cleaned up out? Or

Clay Tumey: 1:21:05

yeah, you've ever been in, in inside hadn't

Djinnaya Stroud: 1:21:07

been in? And what was that? Like? You're not the first person to ask me that today. Right? And the answer is, it was fine. I was worried, like I had this moment when I was getting ready to go with it. I thought, well, I have sure done a lot of work. It's gonna feel really weird. If I get in here and walk in the door and say, Fuck this, I'm

Clay Tumey: 1:21:42

out. Nope.

Djinnaya Stroud: 1:21:44

This is not my show. And I didn't have that experience at all. And I almost didn't get to get in there was There's always problems with

Clay Tumey: 1:21:54

a perfect process with the prisons. You know,

Djinnaya Stroud: 1:21:57

it turns out that when you create a process, but it's full of red tape, and not a lot of humanity, it's really difficult to say I almost didn't get in, and I did get in. And once I was in,

Unknown: 1:22:13

it was

Djinnaya Stroud: 1:22:15

fine. Like I don't know how to explain it any other way. It was just fine. It felt totally natural to be there. There is There was awkwardness when I first came in there is that period, you know, we all come in as a group. So that's kind of the weirdest part is then there's a group of EPP Yeah, you know, and then there's a group of residents, right. And then you have to figure out a way to intermingle in a way that doesn't look artificial. And I, I chose my withdrawn type way, which is I'll just go sit by myself. And eventually, because we're in a circle, someone will have to sit next to me. And I hadn't seen a lot of people in a long time. So I kept ending up sitting with people for me, VP, so luckily, I forget who it was. But somebody said, somebody called out and said, If you are not sitting next year, like if you are sitting with the people you came here with, you need to move. Yeah. And so we moved and Oh, and you know, in under the lines of that sounds terrifying. I'm in I walked in, and we were going to divide up into different groups by type and to a little unpacking. And Cynthia Maria walks up to me, and hands me a number four. And at first, I was like, Oh, well, you know, I could just say no, and I look, my name is on the piece of paper. Sorry, we're gonna leave this Type Four group, it'll be fine. That sounds terrifying. Yeah. And so, so I talk to people, and then I lead the four group, you know, I guess facilitated the four group that wasn't really much leading, just being the person to remind everyone what the question was.

Clay Tumey: 1:24:02

So what were you what was the I mean, just in a second or two, I guess what was were you going through questions? Were you going through? How did you? I mean, what was the what was the conversation? Like?

Djinnaya Stroud: 1:24:09

Um, I can't remember the exact pairing of questions. But to paraphrase, which matters, right, you know, like, the precise wording matters, but the paraphrasing of it was like, how does your type get you in trouble?

Unknown: 1:24:25

And where do you find your freedom? And your type?

Clay Tumey: 1:24:31

I'll tell you back in the old days, tell you a little secret here. There won't be a secret for long back in the old days. The question was, how did your type contribute to your incarceration? And we would talk about that. That was the question when I was when I was locked up. And we were and when I first met Susan, and it's that question stuck around for a couple of years and then it kind of slipped away and it's and and I'm, I'm in the minority, but I feel I want to start I want to I want to I I want to go back to that I've

Unknown: 1:25:01

really, it's high.

Clay Tumey: 1:25:04

Because I, so I'm not a fan of euphemism or softening things. And when I feel that that's happening, wait, that's not true. I love euphemism. But only in certain circumstances. But when, when having difficult conversations, I like to go directly to the thing, the thing that is the most accurate, the most succinct the most whatever. And so for me, when I was locked up, when I was on a panel, to me the question of how does your time get you in trouble? It gets to the meat of it, like it's okay, question. It's fine. But I'm not in trouble. I'm incarcerated. And so I felt much. I felt like it was more precise to talk about what got me incarcerated. And it's weird, because I don't It's not that I'm wanting to push that on other people. I just want that to be a conversation to have if if folks are down to have it. And probably won't come back. Questions probably gone for good. Yeah. But I, I totally get why, why it's why it's a why why it's not comfortable for some people. I just know, in my experience in the folks that I was locked up with, and maybe maybe maybe weren't bouncing it around with some of the ambassadors to I like to talk about directly what happened. And yeah, sure, I got in trouble. But like, I was incarcerated. So I wanted to answer the question of How did my type contribute to my incarceration?

Djinnaya Stroud: 1:26:41

That's so interesting. I can I can absolutely see that. And yet, I also see it as an invitation. Yeah, you know, I'm asking you, How does your type gets you in trouble? You get to decide what that means. And maybe that's a euphemism. But I'm not saying, and I'm sorry, I'm gonna do a visual thing on your podcasts. But I'm not saying how did that get you in trouble in air quotes, right. I'm like, I'm saying, how does it get you in trouble? And you can talk about how that led to your incarceration. Maybe it is the worst thing that is happening to you right now, while you're experiencing an incarceration. And maybe it's not the trouble that keeps showing up for you. Maybe what finally, got you arrested? Like, maybe what you got caught for is not your trouble. Right. You know, it just happened to be the thing.

Clay Tumey: 1:27:36

Yeah. And almost always it's, it's the the crime is the easy part to talk about, like, that's the that's the thing, the thing that got you arrested, it's the easy stuff. And then all the stuff before that is the trouble that the question really speaks to so I do. I can see that. It's, it's probably probably a better question for most. And I wish I just maybe one of these days, we'll find a way to wiggle it back in somewhere. It's super aggressive, like I maybe even like, like, inappropriate. But I just sometimes I'm okay. Yeah.

Djinnaya Stroud: 1:28:13

I'm all for being uncomfortable. But not everybody is.

Clay Tumey: 1:28:18

So that's the way that that I usually go about that conversation. And even in San Diego, this this week, I was talking there. And I was like, you know, once upon a time, we said this, and then I could talk through my piece on that without putting anybody else on blast. Yeah, on the spot, or whatever. So. So going back into San Quentin, you're in the group there. It's, you know, it's just a normal place. There's just people, you're just just dot dot dot that's going on, I mean it.

Unknown: 1:28:51

What else is going on?

Djinnaya Stroud: 1:28:54

I think it's a constant back and forth, in my mind, because I am hanging out with a group of people. And I'm having the same conversations

Unknown: 1:29:06

I would have

Djinnaya Stroud: 1:29:08

at a EPP Connect meeting that I would have at a fancy retreat at Esalen having the same conversations. And they're the same people. But they're not. They're in a very different position. Right? And so it's this constant back and forth in my head between like, Am I making space for where you are? And am I understanding that who you are is not any different than these other places that I am like, we are still just people talking through trying to figure out how to make it through today to the next day. So that's the constant back and forth. And then there was also all the stuff that I had been told what happened there, there was A person at a Type Six, who stood up and talked and did the Type Six thing like finished up his talk and gave a really beautiful critique of the prison system. You know, of course, eight seats away from the warden, you know, like that kind of bravery that you see in that Type Six, and I looked at, I was like, Wow. I see, like, I see not just this person and so much respect. But I see the way that that reminds me of the Type Six in my life, like my youngest child is in the Type Six. And I saw like that same sort of bravery. And so there is that connection. We're all just people in this place. And I wish I could pick everybody up, put them in my pocket, take them home with me, keep doing this work in an area that feels so hostile. And that's not the reality. And that's probably not the best choice.

Clay Tumey: 1:30:53

That's the way to get back into prison in a whole different way. Yeah.

Djinnaya Stroud: 1:30:58

But I mean, but I mean, what's the

Clay Tumey: 1:31:00

first step to being an ambassador? Get arrested?

Djinnaya Stroud: 1:31:03

I mean, I have to collect all the titles at AVP. Yeah, to do No, thank you. Yeah, so there was like this really incredible back and forth. That I had been told was going to happen. And that wasn't real until I was experiencing it. And there was a Type Four in my group who,

Unknown: 1:31:30

you know, we talked, I did a very good

Djinnaya Stroud: 1:31:35

job of doing the things. And I was happy with the job that I did. I checked all the boxes, I, I did some good serve. In return, I made really good space. And then he came and talked to me afterwards. And he said,

Unknown: 1:31:51

so why don't you do this? And I said, Well,

Djinnaya Stroud: 1:31:55

I mean, why wouldn't I want to do this? Like,

Clay Tumey: 1:31:57

he didn't accept that? Absolutely.

Djinnaya Stroud: 1:32:02

Asked it again. And I had this moment where I realized

Unknown: 1:32:06

I wasn't

Djinnaya Stroud: 1:32:08

like it, we were about to leave. And I didn't have the way to make the space. And I said, that's fair. It's complicated. But it's an important part of my becoming, to be here to help people become. And we do the work together, means we all do the work together. And if you get left out of doing this work, the work is not happening. And I said it with a smile. And he started to take it and he looked at me goes, you know, you can't keep coming in here and just smiling.

Unknown: 1:32:42

And I was all.

Djinnaya Stroud: 1:32:47

And I, you know, I walked out and the time was over. And as you know it, you very quickly move out of that space and move into the parking lot. And it's a beautiful day, the sun hadn't been shining in California for days and their storm clouds and

Unknown: 1:33:05

I sat down and realized, I still have so much more work to do.

Djinnaya Stroud: 1:33:14

And as long as I keep going on the inside, there will always be someone to call me out. I want to have in touch.

Unknown: 1:33:23

And that was intense.

Djinnaya Stroud: 1:33:25

I could choose to do something else. I could choose to just go teach the Enneagram somewhere, I'm good with words. I can make real pretty words together. I can make a real pretty words and I can make people feel things. And it's not worth anything. But this thing where you have to be real. That's worth everything.

Unknown: 1:33:48

This to me, you know,

Clay Tumey: 1:33:52

I'll agree there.

Unknown: 1:33:55

Huh? That's good. Glad you shared that.

Clay Tumey: 1:34:02

One tiny question. And then I'll leave you with the last word. You can say anything and everything that you want that I haven't asked or whatever else. I'm curious. And it's a guilt free pass if you don't want to answer you brought up your youngest earlier. Yeah. How are things now?

Djinnaya Stroud: 1:34:18

So glad you asked a question. I realized I hadn't bookended that on the other side. Dylan came

Unknown: 1:34:28

home.

Djinnaya Stroud: 1:34:31

Gosh, I think before I was done with nine prisons, Mikey,

Unknown: 1:34:35

and we went to therapy together and it was good.

Djinnaya Stroud: 1:34:47

And I don't think it was good because the therapist I thought was great. Don't think is good. It was good because I was ready to sit down and listen in a way I hadn't and We really rebuilt

Unknown: 1:35:02

our our relationship

Djinnaya Stroud: 1:35:07

are very important to one another. We went through a lot of shit together to get to be the adults that we are. And we have a lot of shared trauma. And we threw that shared trauma at each other a lot. And I threw way more of my shared trauma at him than was ever fair.

Unknown: 1:35:30

And yeah.

Djinnaya Stroud: 1:35:35

When, when we all moved, so my oldest child saved in the Bay Area, and my youngest child, Dylan, moved to be with his partner in Canada.

Unknown: 1:35:48

And I drove.

Djinnaya Stroud: 1:35:52

I drove him there, I drove from California to Toronto, which is a very long way through.

Unknown: 1:35:59

That's a hike. It's very,

Clay Tumey: 1:36:04

like Vancouver or something.

Djinnaya Stroud: 1:36:05

No, Toronto. And so it's a very long way for two queer Californians to drive as well. So we, we made this trip together, and we had all of the conversations that we still needed to have, like, we didn't talk about stuff about us. We talked about who we were, I talked about growing up, he asked me kind of like what my first interaction with the police was, like, sort of on topic. And I told him about that. And we talked about politics and our dreams. And we got all the way to Toronto, and I helped him move his stuff and everything had gone wrong all the way. His partner, his parents wanted to meet me, and he said, Oh, please don't come meet my mom. She's a husk of a human being right now.

Unknown: 1:37:04

And then we had dinner

Djinnaya Stroud: 1:37:07

in his no apartment, and he walked me to my car, and he hugged me goodbye. And he said, Thank you for getting me here. And not just driving me here, but getting me here. And I said, Thank you for letting me be your mom.

Unknown: 1:37:26

And

Djinnaya Stroud: 1:37:29

letting me keep trying again, and again. And again. And I that's what I mean, I have two kids. And that's what I always want them to hear me say, Thank you for letting me try again and again. And we hugged each other, and I got in the car, and I drove away.

Unknown: 1:37:49

And I

Djinnaya Stroud: 1:37:51

spent the night crying in a hotel. And then I drove the rental car back to Detroit. Turned it in and I texted him and I said of all those miles the 14 hour drive through Wyoming but Type One ways Wilder route at us through South Dakota for some godforsaken reason, all of those drives. Hardest miles. I drove for the miles away from you.

Unknown: 1:38:18

He said, I love you. And that's where we are. It's good place to be. That's a good place to be. Thanks for going there.

Clay Tumey: 1:38:32

It's always risky. Because sometimes that ain't the answer is true. Sometimes it's

Unknown: 1:38:40

heard from him sounds so good on you.

Djinnaya Stroud: 1:38:43

Well and good on him. I mean, it really is.

Unknown: 1:38:47

That's

Djinnaya Stroud: 1:38:49

I mean, one of the things we know in doing this work right one of the things we know and doing the work that we do together at EPP is when a parent betrays your trust and a parent makes you feel

Unknown: 1:39:00

unsafe. It is the worst it's so hard

Djinnaya Stroud: 1:39:07

you know and I still struggle with letting my parents

Unknown: 1:39:12

have a space

Djinnaya Stroud: 1:39:15

in the areas that they made me feel unsafe and the fact that my children both with great bravery are willing to open their arms to me and say let's try again that's that's them that's good on them

Unknown: 1:39:30

that's huge their brain

Clay Tumey: 1:39:36

I'm gonna read something real quick because I just think this is so comical something you said in our messaging leading up to this and I when I asked you what do you down the chat and i i So my I'll paraphrase what I said is hey, I'm gonna be in California this and such time can we are you down to chat, thought whatever. and use and it was a long, yes and followed with. And if something useful comes out of that you're welcome to. And I've learned to not respond to that kind of stuff because I just Well, first of all, I just don't anymore because I just, I just have a good, I feel like I understand who has something to offer. And I just, I don't, I didn't know enough about you to know that any of this would come up any of me except for maybe some of the EPP related details and stuff like that. I just I really believed that you had a lot to share. And something very useful would come from this. And I think folks will agree that that was true. So I appreciate you for being willing to sit down and and share yourself. The final question is an easier one. It's it's probably these just anything that I left out any questions I didn't answer any things, anything that you want to mention or leave, leave the listeners with, I always give the last word to the guest, I'll literally turn off my mic and not say anything else before that.

Unknown: 1:41:10

I only

Clay Tumey: 1:41:12

know that we're not supposed to play favorites, right? We're not supposed to say who we think is the best that this or that whatever that. But a lot of folks believe in you to degree that a lot. And I'm really happy to know that you're going to be going in and and doing this work along side folks on the inside. Thank you found a good place to share yourself and folks are going to be better for it. So thanks. Thank you. I'm really excited to see what happens. And maybe after a few months of going inside, we could sit down again and see. See how it's been going on the inside whatever the next step is, whatever the next step is. So that's it. That's all I have. Thanks for Thanks for chatting, I'll leave the last word to you. And whatever you have to include. There's plenty of time. So don't feel like this needs to be a 22nd Wrap Up. whatever's on your mind.

Djinnaya Stroud: 1:42:08

I guess I want to reply to what you've said. I've spent, I spent, I am no longer spending my life. Taking when people say you're so good at this, you have a gift, we really like that you do this. And leaving immediately because I didn't want to let people down. And the only reason I don't have to do that here is because I trust everyone here so much. There's not just me, there is all of us together. And I know if I start to misstep, if I when I messed up when I make a huge mistake, when I let everybody now and haven't let everybody down. It's just it's just another step together forward. And that's a really new tender place for me. And that that is the gift that GTP gave me the idea the

Unknown: 1:43:22

what if Now, what if

Djinnaya Stroud: 1:43:26

we're all in this together? What if doing something wrong doesn't mean being disconnected? What if we all make mistakes? And it doesn't matter? Because there's somebody right there? What if when someone asks you the challenging question in a class, you can just turn to your co guidance. I don't know what do you think of that.

Unknown: 1:43:48

And that's it, I just

Djinnaya Stroud: 1:43:54

you know, they talk about standing on the shoulders of giants. And this is just being in a crowd of angels. And the light together is so bright that even on the days when I'm dark, it's okay. And then I want to read a thing. I read this poem, and this is the best words of what guiding means to me. It's called clearing. And it's by Martha Pacelle, wait Do not try to save the whole world or do anything grandiose. Instead, create a clearing in the dense forest of your life and wait there patiently until the song that is your life falls into your own cupped hands, any recognize and create it. Only then will you know how to give yourself to this world. So worth of rescue For

Clay Tumey: 1:45:04

more information about EPP, please visit Enneagram prison project.org We appreciate your time and attention today. Stay tuned for future episodes of the podcast which you can expect on the first Tuesday of every month as we continue to tell the story of the Enneagram Prison Project