Clay Tumey: 0:00

Hi my name is Clay and this is the Enneagram Prison Project podcast. EPS guide training program, usually referred to as GTP is an international Enneagram Association accredited training program, Say that five times is for folks who have completed our first two classes and are aspiring to move forward on their path to becoming an EPP Guide. In this episode, I speak with a few of our pod guides from GTPase, which we've recently completed to talk a little bit about what exactly goes on in these guide training programs. Thanks for being here. Thanks for listening. And I hope you enjoy this episode of The Enneagram Prison Project podcast. Obviously I know who you are. But for the listener who might not. Who are you? Who are you in? Why are you here? The big version? No, I'm kidding. I say more casually introduce your damn self.

Jason White: 1:33

Oh, so I am Jason white. I am so how many different angles can I address that from? I got involved with EPP I think back in 2016 when Renee Lopez and ambassador I met him and outside of EPP and invited me to a meeting a reconnecting meeting. And I was immediately impressed by the guides by the material. And I was very skeptical. So it took. Yeah, so I just kept coming back. And here I am. It's difficult to say no at etps. Because it is such a great mission. And the people are so great. So I have just continued to get more and more involved. And at first that was helping getting the LMS started and getting everything moved online when the pandemic started is really when I started getting more involved. And so I do technical support and technical stuff there. And then it was becoming a guide. And so I recently became a guide, I went through GTP seven, and I've been doing courses on the inside, you'll also see me in the Kinect, on Monday nights at 5pm pt. Please come and check that space out if you've finished any of our programs, and just gives you a little taste of the EPP magic every week, something that you can put on your calendar and just show up when you're available.

Unknown: 3:11

And I do

Jason White: 3:13

a number of other things like the organizational

Clay Tumey: 3:16

Juggernaut, I think it's probably the fair way to describe you.

Unknown: 3:22

I'll take that. Yeah, I love it. I was ready. If you were going to disagree, I was ready to argue about it. Because it's just you make a massive difference. And in all sorts of areas of the project. And we love you it's it's good having you around. Did you for the curious, by the way, when we started doing our words of appreciation segment on the podcast, Jason was the inspiration for that. Because I found myself personally talking about JSON in a lot of different areas like oh, yeah, Jason is awesome. Oh, yeah, sure. Just ask Jason know, this and the other one day I thought like, holy shit, I wonder if he has any idea of like, how highly people think of him. And so I thought, you know, why don't we just do this, like publicly and get all the different words that I've heard recently to describe him and you know, throw that, throw that into one big casserole, linguistic casserole, I've never said those two words together, by the way. Like it.

Clay Tumey: 4:26

So you so in addition to all the other things that you do, you're also the inspiration behind what I find to be a very fun segment to do with with the podcast and appreciating folks. You know, talking about them behind their back when they're not here to hear it. And yeah, it's not. It's nice. It's great having you around. I'm curious, a question real quick. The Did you know about the Enneagram before you met Renee and started coming to the to the reconnecting Was it? It was still on the outside at that point, right?

Jason White: 5:06

Yeah, that was pre COVID. So we were meeting in person. And no, I had no idea. In fact, the biggest word on the flyer was pizza. So Enneagram may have been mentioned, but I saw pizza. And it was a chance to hang out with Rene for a little bit. So that's why I really went

Unknown: 5:24

for the record, neither of the P's and EPP stand for pizza. But, you know, it's that not everybody knows that. But it's actually not the Enneagram pizza project. Although that wouldn't be a bad. I have. That's an option. Feel free to unmute and let people hear it because you're laughing and nobody thinks I'm funny right now.

Clay Tumey: 5:46

This is a no mute zone, sir. I'm kidding. mute, mute as you wish. So typically, we do these in person, and we're on Zoom today, which is so nice and so convenient. And, and I'm glad that you elected to sit down with me for a little bit and chat about GTP. In particular. Oh, one more question. So you didn't know about the Enneagram? And then we'll get to GPA you didn't know about the Enneagram? What was your process of finding your type? And find it? I don't know that you've I don't spill anybody else has been. So whatever information you bring to the table is what we talked about. And I don't add anything beyond that just as a way of respecting boundaries. But how did you go about finding your type? Once you started, kind of sitting in here and about what all this Enneagram stuff is?

Jason White: 6:39

Yeah, I think I, I opened up the wisdom of the Enneagram. And I went through the type test in there. And I think my mission was to find out what was wrong with it. And that it was that it was totally generic, like, it was totally generic. And every type could apply to everybody. And then I read through them, and I'm like, oh, a couple of these sounds more like me than than the others. And then I think I eventually landed on Type One. But Type One said that they were angry, and I wasn't angry, I never got angry. And so I still went with that. And they must have just been wrong about the angry part. Everybody else in my life could have told you that I got angry on a regular basis, except for me. And so took me maybe a year before that.

Unknown: 7:36

That really sank in.

Jason White: 7:39

And of course, that's transformational when you see yourself in a new way. And the Enneagram has just kept showing me myself in new ways. This,

Clay Tumey: 7:48

gosh, we need one day. So we only have 30 minutes today to chat. And one day, I want to sit down and talk with you about anger. This came up with my mom recently talking about angry and talking about anger, and specifically the question of how does anger serve you? And and a lot of people experienced that same reaction of I'm not, I'm not angry at all. And if I was, how would that serve me? It's not that big. I'm not angry, like that idea. I've heard that before, from other folks from other types even. So. So we'll we're going to skip a lot of history and getting right up to G TPA. And I, I, I love that you were in GTP, seven as a participant, and now you're in you were in G TPA, as a pod guide. And, by the way, GTP stands for guide training program. It's it's the it's not the final step. That guides go through a perspective guides go through. But it's one of the final steps. And actually, how about you? You feel like explaining to the layman? What exactly is to the layperson what exactly is GTP? What is guide training program?

Jason White: 9:04

That's a great question. So the guide training program is really where you make a number of transitions. So you make a really, I think, fundamentally a transition from going through the course and being a participant and receiving

Unknown: 9:21

to giving

Jason White: 9:24

you make a transition into a mindset of service, you start to take the content, and you you internalize it a little bit more. But your your whole focus shifts to how can I give this to people? How can I bring this to people in an impactful way, and it's not just the content, it's the connection, that the content is actually third on the list for for things that we want to bring to people connection is right up at the top. And so learning how how do you form that connection? How do you bring people together in a group loop and have the learning there and have the content, they're all the elements contribute, for sure. And, and so it's a, it's a practice, it's a practice of shifting that perspective shifting to being able to present. There's a lot of feedback from from guides from ambassadors. Clay did not say, but he was very involved. And he was, he was there, all over the place. And we're so blessed to have the ambassadors. Because they're, they're bringing the perspective from the classroom, that we can't, we can't get any other way. And, and so we bring all those elements together. And that's happening on with one hand. And with the other hand, we're asking everybody to do the inner work at the same time. So you come into GTP, and you your it is, I mean, I'd show you the syllabus, but we're on a podcast, it's a pretty, it's, it's a very packed schedule, if you just look at the amount of work that we asked you to do, then, then it's already feeling like it's a packed schedule. But as with life, we're also saying, Hey, your type is going to show up, your red flag is going to show up your, your core desire and basic fear are going to show up. And as, as this kind of this, this learning all of this new material, we we go through and see how type shows up for each person. And it does show up as you start presenting the material, your center of intelligence, your particular lens on the world, and the strengths of your type show up. And that's an important part of learning to become a guide. Because

Unknown: 11:52

we cannot bring

Jason White: 11:55

our biases into the room with us. It's not

Unknown: 11:59

fair. What happens

Clay Tumey: 12:01

if you do? Or what happens if a person does if a guide brings their biases into the room? You know, it's I agree, by the way, that that that's, I agree that we can't do that, or we shouldn't do that. And then the next natural thought for me as well, what happens if we do? So we're

Jason White: 12:21

forming a container of safety, we're forming an environment in more than one way where people feel comfortable showing up. And that's hard. That's hard in a jail or a prison. If you've never been there, I saw a lot of concrete and steel and very bad day for most people, the worst day of most, the worst day of most people's lives, really, I would say, and a lot of places. And so how do you go into that environment and create a place where people feel comfortable showing up comfortable sharing with other people that are residents, they're comfortable sharing in front of some somebody with a clipboard who just came in, and they don't really know, like how, how you create that container of safety and people are really wise, they're really they're able to pick up on every cue every, every subtle hint.

Unknown: 13:22

And so if something,

Jason White: 13:25

if I'm bringing something in, like, I guess it is fine for me to bring in that I'm having a bad day. As long as during the checkout, I say, hey, today's hard. In fact, it is better if I am able to do that. And when I do that, because that shows that

Unknown: 13:45

I'm in this with everybody. And

Jason White: 13:47

that's another part of being a guide and the whole process. Like we're, we're called guides because we're there walking alongside everyone, we're not

Unknown: 13:55

separate. And that helps create this, this container.

Clay Tumey: 14:02

Again, as opposed to like a teacher where they stand above and rain down information upon those below them. Right.

Unknown: 14:12

That's my that's my word. By the way. I'm not putting that on anybody else to agree or cosign that but there's the difference. It's not just semantics. It's it's, there's a reason we say guidance that a teacher and it's a it's, you know, my favorite way to illustrate this is it's not standing in front of or behind, pushing or pulling it standing next to and walking with. Is that fair? Absolutely. So he said earlier, connection is at the top content is at the bottom and a list of three things that are that are very important. What is that middle? What's that middle thing?

Jason White: 14:54

You're asking me to give away all the secret sauce.

Clay Tumey: 14:56

Okay, I got to I got to rebuild. It was many things we need the connection and

Jason White: 15:07

content are two are the big ones for sure. Yeah. Well, there are several different lists depending on how you shuffle them.

Unknown: 15:16

But that and all again,

Jason White: 15:20

all the elements are important. But connection is really like nothing happens if I'm, well, nothing happens if I don't feel safe. And nothing happens if I don't feel like I can share with you or we can be here together.

Clay Tumey: 15:38

The way that I've that I've thrown it out there to folks in everywhere, frankly, but it's but specifically in GTP is who you are, is more important than what you know. And that is coming from someone who I spend most of my time in Type Five. And that's blasphemy for the Type Five to say that what you know is lesser than who you are, but it is who you are, and that I'm speaking to the connection that you can have with other folks is who you are who you show up as are you here right now. If that doesn't exist, then what you know, doesn't matter. I'm not listening to anything that you say. So. Yeah. So what was? How was it going through? Ask it this way, what what were some of the notable differences, going through the guide training program as a pod guide? Versus a participant? Like were there things that you remembered as, as a participant being easier or more difficult? And then being on this side of it looked differently? I don't know, is this a perspective change a lot, when you're when you're going through it? Looking at the homework, instead of doing the homework or giving feedback, instead of receiving feedback, stuff like that, were there any any big differences that stuck out to you?

Jason White: 17:03

I would say it's completely different. We go Yeah, it's completely different. I think the experience as a participant is it's a little bit content heavy in the beginning, but there's a lot of really learning how to,

Unknown: 17:22

how to think and how to

Jason White: 17:27

how to think about the Enneagram in the way that EPP does in a compassionate way, and go through for each type and tell the story of each type in a really compassionate,

Unknown: 17:42

but yet real luck. And so that's one of the assignments.

Jason White: 17:51

So it's, it's kind of, and it's also going through our most difficult modules. And we asked you to teach the modules in a very short period of time on purpose, so that you, you are encouraged to pick out what's most important about what the most important sections of each module are. And I didn't design any of that, or the process that that was, that was people way before me and they are very wise. So there's that there's a whole bunch of really interesting things about the process

Unknown: 18:28

and and being a participant being a pod guide is

Jason White: 18:39

it's about having a welcoming and inviting a small group of four to six into this process into what it is to be a guide into. And to EPP in a way, like meant all of our public programs are an all of our programs are an invitation to our community. And so GTP is an invitation into our guide community

Unknown: 19:11

and all the support there and yeah, the way that

Jason White: 19:22

we do things is guides.

Unknown: 19:25

There's a lot of

Jason White: 19:33

so there's a lot of answering questions. There's a lot of

Unknown: 19:37

inspiring

Jason White: 19:39

relating stories about what it's like on the inside relating stories about

Unknown: 19:44

EPP but it's, it's I mentioned that

Jason White: 19:50

you're doing the work the inner, the inner work as you're going through GTP so there are tears. There's laughter people face the core challenges of their type, not as an abstract idea, but as

Unknown: 20:08

I'm terrified,

Jason White: 20:09

like I am in tears, I'm shaking, I'm terrified. And I'm going to sit with that.

Unknown: 20:16

With my feet in the fire. And as a pawn guide, you sit with people. And

Jason White: 20:26

I bring in the Enneagram, I bring in type observations. And

Unknown: 20:33

but all the work has to be done by each person by each, each guide, as they go through. Last but not least, and again, we have wiggle room, so feel free to wiggle all you like just a wide open question of anything you'd like to add? Any any questions you want to answer that I didn't ask about GTP about EPP about being a guide about

Clay Tumey: 20:57

literally anything, the floor is yours. I want to give you the last the last words here. Yeah,

Unknown: 21:03

thank you. Um,

Jason White: 21:07

I think I mentioned just briefly that the GTP is really the beginning of the of the guide process, when you finish GTP you are not a guide. You are you have, you've practiced and you have some of the material that that we use on the inside, that you're familiar with. But what makes a guide is someone who can go into jail or a prison and sit with men and women there through

Unknown: 21:38

really difficult conversations.

Jason White: 21:41

And to create an environment where those conversations can happen in an environment where we all feel safe, and welcome to show up just as we are.

Unknown: 21:53

And I think that it is that process of sitting, sitting with people and showing them their ascent, inviting everyone to see their essential goodness. And inviting over and over everyone to engage with the best and the challenging parts of who they are. That's what makes a guide. And that's at least another

Jason White: 22:32

that's a, that's another six months to a year process of going through and being with an experienced guide and

Unknown: 22:42

doing the work. And so, I'm just I'm really

Jason White: 22:48

impressed by everyone who went through GTP. Even Even people who went through GTP and decided, you know, this is not for me. Because that takes a lot of guts, that takes a lot of self awareness to, to go through where to start. And and to say, even if even if you have to say not now, I know that I can't give myself to this right now, the way that this process calls for. So I want to appreciate everyone.

Unknown: 23:25

Everyone who

Jason White: 23:27

made those difficult decisions, everyone who completed GTP. And I'm just really looking forward to seeing how, like there were 45 or so maybe a few less than that, let's say 40 that came through this most recent round. And I'm just looking forward to seeing the community grow. And we're really moving back to and in custody first emphasis and so I expect that everyone will be going into a facility one way or another shortly over the next six months. And that's going to be a lot of energy and a lot of

Unknown: 24:12

a lot of work and a lot of growth. Okay, so I am Asha Bolton. I live in Bowling Green Kentucky. Type Four. Setting me Enneagram since 92. So that's a that's been a minute. I came to know EPP in 2015 That's when I met Susan Olesek She came to speak at the narrative Enneagram where I was taking a workshop and she was to set two sentences into her presentation and I was drawn in. Do you remember what those two Two sentences were, well, one of them involved the phrase prisons of our own making. And what was really weird is that I was like, I literally had that thought, like a split second before she said it. You know, because she she was, it was probably more than a couple of sentences that actually, but right before she said that famous phrase, I said it. And then when she said, I was like, Oh, my God, she's reading my mind, or am I reading her mind? Or, but I knew we were on the same page. So in 2015, had at that point, had you had any kind of experience with the prison world or any, you know, any, any particular interest? I mean, I know you're at a thing for the Enneagram. So clearly, you already were a bit into your Enneagram studies. But had you ever thought about what this what this tool could be used for? Behind behind the bars as we sometimes they are in the incarcerated world? Yeah, I play I have to say no, that I had not. It never had crossed my mind to be working with incarcerated people. I've never had anything, you know, an aversion to it. In fact, what I liken it to is that I had spent over 30 years working with nursing home patients. Now I came at it from the financial side. And my job was to try to help get the means from the government, that they needed to have a quality life. So I was trying to give a voice to a disenfranchised population. They just happened to be in the nursing home. And as soon as I heard about EPP, I realized that it was sort of the same thing, that it was another type of disenfranchisement another type of people having somewhat lost a voice. And could I do anything to help with that? You know, it was a very natural transition for me from nursing home to jail. Yeah, that's not I don't I don't think I knew that. And we've been friends for a while. I know a lot about you. I don't think I knew that. So what do you what do you? What is it about the incarcerated? I mean, why why? I'm going to ask you a very broad question that I like to hit people with sometimes. But why? Why? Why do we care about those who are who are locked up? If they can't, if they can't even follow the rules, and have lost their freedom? Why do we give a shit? Oh, wow. That is a broad question. And the first thing I just noticed is that my heart is alive, when you're asking the question, because I do care for that population a lot. And I think that maybe they talked about, you know, breaking the rules. I'm not so sure that they did break all the rules that we put them put on them or that they knew they were breaking them or that they knew how to do something different. Or knew there was a rule. You know, there's just so many questions that come up for me like as to around that, that they broke the rules, and now they're, they're being punished. I don't I don't see that at all. And the more I've gotten then to knowing incarcerate people through these EPP classes, the more I see the people, I don't even know how to extract them from the rest of the world. We're just people. And yet they're a group of people that I think needs some need some help. One of my favorite things is to go in and ask what if there's nothing wrong with you? I just love the reaction. And the drop jaw sometimes that that elicits because that's what I really want to do is to, to come in and say I think I think it's time for us to talk about what's right about you. Because we spent our whole lifetimes all of us me included. Hearing what's bad. So let's talk about what's good. It just gives me joy to bring that that possibility to people. I love that. I'm aware of that. It's an abrasive question the way that I asked that. And I wouldn't put that on everybody. I like hearing you talk through that and and share your thoughts on that. You said a minute ago. You talking about going on inside? Am I understanding correctly that you you have been on the inside? Yes, I have made some trips actually in in person. I think we were in jails in 2015 and 16. But they were very sporadic and occasional. If I happen to be out in California, I got to go with Susan into play. She was going out and there was a time or two that I actually presented some material is very much on the spot. And it wasn't really very good now that I look back at it. So that that was the only time that I'd ever been on the inside. And then of course, because I live, as I said, in Kentucky, we don't have a program here. The program that I was aware of were out in California and just wasn't feasible for me to be able to do that. And then of course, COVID happened. And everything went on the inside. I was able to, to begin guiding, virtually. And I've done that a few times.

Clay Tumey: 30:42

When did you become a guide for for or with EPP?

Unknown: 30:46

That's an interesting question, because I haven't stopped guiding since I became a guide, and I lose track of when that was. I think that it was in 2020. Okay. So I was I was in the last GTP class, DTP seven. Okay. Which I do believe was in 2020. Don't get me line, I don't have my calendar. And it's, you know, if somebody wants to fact check them that's on them. I, I also think it was them. But I didn't, I didn't I wasn't as involved with GTP. Seven as I was with ttba. So I A don't remember the exact date, but also don't have a lot of context for some of the differences.

Clay Tumey: 31:36

What what we did with seven that we changed with a or if that even happened? Or was it just a cookie cutter thing? You were a big part of GTP as a pod guide.

Unknown: 31:50

Write? I did sort of as a pod guide for GTP eight. And so what are you what are, from your experience? What were some of the things that you saw? I don't know, I guess just comparing the two GTP, seven and DTPA. What it's like to go through as a participant versus a pod guide, you know, two years ago versus 2022. Any, any notable differences, that that you that you that come to mind when you think about those two classes? Yeah. So I think when you go through it, this was my experience going through GTP and I was in seventh. Everything's new, you don't, you don't have a clue what's going to happen when you start practice teaching. You're watching the clock, you're trying to get all the points. And you're or I keep saying you but it was me. I

Clay Tumey: 32:44

just did a thing I'm interrupting, because you just did a thing that we talked about. And what what was that where you you flipped it from you to I

Unknown: 32:51

that's part of what we teach. Right? I I became emotionally responsible for what I'm saying. Yeah.

Clay Tumey: 32:59

I hope I didn't derail you that too much there. I love I love watching that inaction.

Unknown: 33:04

It didn't at all. And it actually kind of as a side point, the all the experience I had teaching for 35 years, served me very little. When I got into EPP guiding because you was the term that we that I said, you know, so learning to say I statements, it's really important. So I didn't know what to expect. When I went into each session. I didn't know what to expect. When I went into the practicum. I had a syllabus, I had the learning management system LMS. And I particularly remember teaching the defense system. And feeling like I had to just talk as fast as I could, and then do a deep inhale. And then let it go again and just talk as fast as I could, because how am I going to get all this in the amount of time that they were giving me and they were watching me. It also it was really kind of nerve. I don't want to say it was nerve wracking, it was just challenging. So I take that and then I go into the apprenticeship, which for me was in in custody, virtual and custody. And then I've guided some since then in custody, virtually. And I realized very quickly that all the practice teaching that I did still didn't prepare me for the unknown of going in to a classroom. I remember being like in front of my zoom window waiting for the cameras to run as I call it for the class to show up. And knowing breath by breath that I did not know what was gonna get ready to happen. And then when the class showed up, and I had a mentor guide within about a minute, I was like, Oh yeah, I'm home. This feels so Good, and then learning to manage that that class might arrive late, I might lose 10 minutes right off the bat, it may take longer to center, the class we do as a centering and a check in. And it may actually what I meant to say it may take longer to do the check in. And I allow for that when I can, because this is their chance to talk. And I want them to have that chance to talk and to be heard, and do some serve and return with them. And sometimes I can and sometimes I can't do as much as I want. And then to know that they might get called out for duties that they just found out that they have. So all these variables affect my session plan, to the point that the session plan is nothing more than version a, you know, we're gonna see how this goes. And then I have to learn how to skip certain things or put things in the following week, or let the students when they're speaking to me, they're actually teaching the material a lot of times and just turn around pointing it out. So all this sort of what I call real life guiding versus practice teaching, I had that experience to go into GTP E as a pod guide with. And so as I watched people in GTP, eight practice teach that one time, I mean, every time literally that I saw someone practice teach, I was right there with them remembering how it is, I think I gotta get all of them. And it's got to be done a certain way, and I'm gonna get a pass fail. And in that training, your mind can not always be on your student, it's on getting to be worth your student later. That's a real different mindset. And then also to sort of look at the people that are going through and watching them and thinking, you know, this, this presentation needs some work, that they're gonna be really good. They get on the inside, because they are so present and so engaging. That's a pawn guide, you have a big role in their development, because I was around a lot for the practicums for the, for the reduce for the all that stuff, shared my feedback, and I was gone. And you had you had a pod you had you had a smaller group of people that you had several conversations with, sometimes in a group setting, sometimes one on one, you know, via, you know, technology is really making it to where we can do things that we couldn't do in the past, but being able to give direct feedback. And also, it's not always a pleasant thing to say sometimes it's like, you know, I'll paraphrase but like, Hey, you really suck at this, this thing that you just did, like how how, talk through some of the experience of that, where you where you see somebody and you know that they're good, you know that they have what it takes, and they're just on, they're just hung up on a thing, or whatever. And you don't have to mention names or anything like that. But But I'm curious from your, from your perspective, what that's like, how do you have those conversations where people really do miss the mark. And it's, and they did it in a safe place. But it's a thing that needs to be addressed before they go inside? What is that, like from your from your perspective? Well, you know, I think my nature is to want to build people up. And so I have to keep sight of the goal here, which is the incarcerated students, what's going to be good for them. And then get past what my nature says I don't need to make everybody feel good. I need to make sure that the that for my part in this that I am witnessing, and can recommend people to as as ready, I would say would be the word to go and be with the incarcerated student. And that is a long process over the whole, like eight or eight weeks plus, it's actually gone into about nine to 10 weeks. And so just to give you some perspective, we spent about 48 hours in session in that eight week. So that's just the sessions where the whole cohort is there. I spent another close to 50 hours with my six people. beyond that. We met once a week for an hour and a half in a pod meeting. I had lots of interaction with him one to one. I met with him twice for an hour on a one to one. So there's a whole lot of this that builds and you get to know the sense of someone at least around our common goal, you know, I mean, at the very end of my, my very last pod meeting, I said, Hey, why don't we bring something in that says little about who we are outside of EPP. Like, maybe bring, you know, something that you're interested in? And it was like, Oh, we have life outside? Yeah, we actually do. So I believe that kindness, and I believe that the back kind feedback includes the hard message as well as the good stuff. So when I give the hard feedback, I sort of look at why am I doing this? And how, what, what do I think this will benefit on for the person on the inside? You know, I'm constantly thinking about that. There's nobody I haven't met. That, oh, that's not good. That's not going to work at all. There are people who will strike that, when you get a sense of people who really see the cause that EPP represents, you want to support them. And I say that with a charge of emotion. I really feel something jumping in my heart center when I say that you want to support the people who really get it, the ones and maybe they do and maybe they don't, but you think they do at this point? You know, you just want to support them. You know? Yeah,

Clay Tumey: 41:42

I agree, by the way. So my perspective, and I'm not a guide. And I and I don't know how often I say that, because in these conversations, I feel like I'm part of the team. And I totally am. But I'm not a guide, I don't have a pot, I don't have the all the one on one conversations are not on my to do list, I have my role, and I enjoy it. And I those conversations for me, like I have to very often reiterate, this is coming from a place of love and support. Like I say it just just as much for the person hearing it as I do. As the person saying it for me, like because I got to remember like this is this is not American Idol. Like I'm not, I'm not trying to tell somebody how to succeed, I'm just, they want to do something, I'm and I'm here to support that. That's what I see with the pod guides, too. It's, it's not so much, hey, I know the answer. I'm correcting a thing that you're doing wrong. It's more like, yeah, you're trying something and I want to support you in doing it.

Unknown: 42:53

More to what,

Clay Tumey: 42:55

to a greater extent to a greater degree so that you can serve, you know, the

Unknown: 43:02

end of the line being or what would they call us in business, the end was to cut the person at the end of the year, the end user end user, there we go. It's why it's why don't work for big corporation. And in this case, the end user being you know, some some person who is incarcerated, you know, and we do have public programs like I'm not saying you have to be locked up to, to participate. But

Clay Tumey: 43:25

you know, prison is our middle name.

Unknown: 43:26

So, right. And, you know, we are focusing and refocusing and constantly focusing on our incarcerated participants, that is the goal of EPP. And so even the public programs need to support that. Why are we doing this? We're doing it for the benefit of people who are on the inside. Yeah, I love that. And then it is a push. And they might already hear about this by the time the podcast is uploaded, there is there's a very intentional push recently, to get back to that basic idea of you know, prison is our middle name. We might even mess around and get a t shirt with that on it. Who knows, right? I've been asking for it for a while, I don't know, a decade, maybe. I support the notion that prison is our middle name and that we are here for the incarcerated. That's why I'm here. And, you know, there is this whole aspect of finding community. And definitely, EPP is a very welcoming community and a very safe place for me to be at I love that part of it too. If it weren't for the incarcerated, I don't know that I'd be around. That's what I want to do. And that's what EPP wants to do. So we match it I think the one of the I don't know it may be really hard to overcome as a society is how we look at formerly incarcerated people. I just give you an example from one of my incarcerated students or actually prefer to use the word participant because I'm in this with my bear in it with me. He looked at me, I don't remember the context. But he said, You know, I've met more. I've met more good people in here than I knew out there. And I stopped and did a little quick 12345 on my hands of people I know, closely. And I said, I agree with you, I would say the same thing. You know that I have met some really great people here. And great people are great people that there's no distinction. And I know that it's kind of idealistic to to want that in our society. But I really do want that I really want people to be treated for who they are right now. And you talked about breaking rules in your talking to Type Four. I love breaking rules. I think Rules are made to be broken. Well, I have that kind of streak about me too. And I'm no different than anyone, I just didn't get caught breaking all the rules that could have gotten me incarcerated. I do have one more questions. Very broad, open ended question. Just ask you, if you have any final thoughts, anything, anything that we didn't address that you want to when I look and I see somebody devoting themselves to something like this, and I know you care about us. So it's not like you're just serving my needs I we give a shit about the same things. And it's, it's, it's satisfying to look at my screen and see a friend who, who comes from a very likely a very different background, and we and we're standing shoulder to shoulder doing something that we love together. And so thank you. I appreciate that. I appreciate you being here. And any, any closing thoughts, any questions that you want to answer that I didn't ask anything, there's no time limit, the floor is yours. I'm done talking. And I'll just leave it to you. Well, Clay thanks, and, and thank you for inviting me into this space. It is really great to be here with you. I want to say about JTPA that I did not guide incarcerated classes during the time I did GTP eight. But I had this thought if I'm teaching six people to be guides, what an investment that is, you know what exponential growth that can provide. And you know who that growth is for it's for the incarcerated people. So I do want to say that and then in a more broad sense. The way that I feel about my work and EPP is that it's a calling. I don't like that word a whole lot. It sometimes triggers religious overtones or undertones that I'm not going after, but it is something that calls to me. And I get to do it. I'm invited to it. I'm permitted the tour I vote. I'm allowed to be in these places. It's it's utterly soul nourishing for me to be doing this work. That also keeps me on my toes with my own inner work. I can't go and represent anybody, but especially somebody like EPP without being on my toes. I mean, that's just part of it. And then that's also an efficiency. I get where I'm doing this work or people, but I'm getting this. I'm doing this work for my own benefit too, because I have to face me. You know, it doesn't matter what I've done all day long at the end of the day, I have to face me, and how did I do today? And doing this work with EPP calls me to be a better person

Clay Tumey: 49:29

Hey, it's Clay and I want to pause here real quick to share with you a few words of appreciation for Jan Schecter. Jan is an EPP guide and she is also of our I don't know a few bazillion other things inside of EPP. She helps make EPP what it is. She was very instrumental in the most recent offering of the guide training program aka GTP eight and I'm while I was talking to each of the guides that I chatted with for For this episode, there was a point where I stopped and said, Hey, what do you think about Jen Schecter? And so here are the answers to that question.

Jason White: 50:09

I'm sure that I can't say enough about Jen shaker, she really I don't know what this GTP would have been like without Jan, I don't know what the guide development process would be like without Jen, she's really holding guide development and all the different pieces of that I think there's, there's over a dozen different groups that meet are related to guide development TTP is just part of that GTP is really the beginning of the journey. And she created so many documents, she kept track of so many things and just made it everyone feel so supported. Everyone feel included in the process. And

Unknown: 50:54

I offered structure

Jason White: 50:58

and reassurance like that, as a, as a guide, or a pod guide it, there's already a lot of moving pieces, and I couldn't imagine keeping track

Unknown: 51:09

of everything. And so I'm,

Jason White: 51:14

I'm so thankful that Jen was there and that she had the time and energy she put in so much time and I'm sure I only saw a small part of it. But she it seemed like she was always there always online.

Unknown: 51:29

Definitely. And I will say that the work I've done before as a guide, I sort of interacted with my co guide. And that was the end of it really. And then GTP a there's an infrastructure that's much bigger than just to go to two guides getting together. And Jan sort of represents to me the umbrella over the whole structure, the whole infrastructure. She was sometimes I called her the principal of the school because she kept things going and she made decisions and I have to say that I didn't realize going in that that position had been created or was in place and so it took me a little bit to kind of catch on to who's Jan now you know, because I really didn't even know her that well. So what I will say in appreciation and I everything I would say about Jehanne today is an appreciation she holds a hell of a lot I mean all that she does and I had a conversation with her toward the end and just got some information about how much she really holds that I knew from what she was sending us to you know help us do tracking of the back and that sort of thing that she was really on it dedicated loyal wanting to be good at it like in a in a real for going to one way you know just really wanted to bring that Type One purity and goodness to the process. I think she word would be I don't know this is not one word but she put up with a lot too. And as one has to do in that position. Yeah, I kind of wish I'd known I wish I like if I had the opportunity GTP nine I would jump at it and jam were there I would understand from day one how to benefit more from her support. Jam check the I don't know I don't know how we would have done this without her and I can't imagine that GTP ever happening without her now we were so spoiled and so lucky to get her. Jan is just one of the most competent selfless I can do this kind of people I've ever met she is just there's just nothing that she that flaps her there's nothing that she can't do. And she has this really beautiful ability to just be the simplest way to get to the next space. Like I'll instead of taking a straight line approach like she does, I can like Wiggle Wiggle go around all over the place. And talk about it and she's like no got it. And she already she's already there and I'm still talking about how I'm gonna get there. And I could call her on the phone and she'd pick up I could whack her and she would talk me right back it she did with though available. And so holding all of us because there was so much more that got put into this GTP than any other other GPB before it. And there's a lot to hold on our on our side. So for us and for the pod guys to be held the way we are held was just ordinary. And I know the leaders feel that way the cohort leaders feel that way as well. But But I just, I am amazed by her capacity to hold what she held. content wise, emotionally. Logistically, I just, it's really, really mind blowing. really mind blowing. I would say that for me, Jan is the words that come up to me is that she's magical. She's celestial. She's everywhere. And there's a way that she's able to hold all of the logistics the backbone, the skeleton container, answer with grace. Respond, anticipate that, I would say that it was I felt that Jan was like an an architect and also handled anything that wasn't yet operating the way that it was originally designed. She could flex it, she could adjust it, she could adapt it. And she was there for all of us. And for each of us. So yeah, so I'm gonna love on her in that way. And I got to hang out with Jan Esslingen. So I got to hug her personally, bodily. And I'd say, Yeah, Grace, dignity. And, yeah, amazing. And I can talk about all the amazing logistics, but it's not she did those flawlessly, but it's how she was there for all of us.

Deb Horton: 56:36

And it's hard to limit myself to a few words here. And I was part of GTP, seven, when Jan wasn't the coordinator of it. And now being part of this GTP when she is there, Jan has been the rock she has been like the one person I can always go to. And there's so many details in this process, and so much to hold. And she is always with kindness. I mean, true kindness, there to help and no judgment for what the fuck you should have known that, you know, I already said that, you know, no, no, no, no, Jan is just, she, she is amazing. To me. I don't know how her brain works. I don't know how anyone can function and hold everything that she does and organize a process as big as this and as complicated as this in a way that has brought so much support, you know, for me as a Type Six, support that's big. And I felt totally supported by her and her amazing work. And her and just her amazing kindness and the gift of her. I was also you know, as a and her team, you know, cohort six. And so just her insights into, you know, when we were doing listening to people together and her feedback and her suggestions. I think that Jan is a super brilliant, amazing, loving person. And this, this process of GTP eight was held together in a way that I just can't even imagine it happening without her.

Clay Tumey: 58:18

And as a bonus, I will also include EPP guide Dana Vitorelo, who is not on this episode, but I was talking to her on Zoom. While I was in the middle of editing this episode and I said, Hey, you want to include a few words of appreciation for Jan Chegada. And here's what she said.

Dana Vitorelo: 58:35

I love Jan, I love working with Jan, I love talking with Jan, I love shooting the shit with Jan she's one of my absolute favorite people. And in just I work with her and lots of spaces in EPP but for GTP eight we couldn't have run it without her. We couldn't she held all the logistics She held the bigger picture she held the punch list. She was updating session plans in the middle. I mean she was showing up in every cohort and supporting and just literally jumping and pitching in wherever she could. And it went so smooth because we had Jan and her beautiful, meticulous organized mind. She's so competent and so logical and balances it out with so

Unknown: 59:20

much heart. So much heart and you know,

Dana Vitorelo: 59:24

beautifully when appropriate will bring these big, lovely feelings around and is so generous with her her love and her appreciation of everyone else and I love working with Jan,

Unknown: 59:36

I really do.

Clay Tumey: 59:38

So before we get back to the episode, I kind of want to just invite y'all anybody listen to this, if you can hear my voice, I'm talking to you. If you are connected with us on Slack, feel free to go over to the podcast chat Slack channel and drop a few words of appreciation of your own for Dan Schecter. And if you're not in our Slack channel, then email send that sent you know I'll tell you what I'll make you do you send an email to info at Enneagram prison project.org. And I promise you somebody will see it. And if it's not for them, if it's for Jan or anybody else, then they will forward that to the appropriate person. All right, there you go. And I think now we will return to our regularly scheduled programming. We're talking to some of the guides from the most recent guide training program. Really easy starting places, just to tell the listener who you are anything that you want to include, and name type if you want, or nothing at all, it's fine. So who are you and what do you do with EPP? Perfect,

Unknown: 1:00:54

I am Dana, and Dana Deaton and I am a guide within EPP. I'm a Type Two. And as a normal check in I wish I use she her pronouns. But you know, we, I also do live coaching. I have a live coaching business, private practice. And so I do that on the side. And that has become less and less of what I do, because I'm doing more and more of EPP.

Clay Tumey: 1:01:24

That's cool. So yeah, did you do Enneagram work in your private practice prior to ebp? Or did you did you have? Did you meet all them to get like, what was the connection point for you with the Enneagram and then EPP,

Unknown: 1:01:37

the Enneagram came to me late. So I started using the Enneagram as a part of my coaching. So they introduced it, they introduced it to a at New Ventures last which is where I was certified, and got introduced to it there and they use it as just a one of the many tools that they offer. Or they suggest and it so it so intrigued me and I wanted to know more and I kept thinking kind of I could learn more about this thing called the Enneagram it would be my secret sauce as a part of my coaching business. And then COVID hidden that brought me into EPP and started the sequence of classes that led me to where I am now. Never did I think I would go with this deepen.

Clay Tumey: 1:02:24

Yeah, I can relate, by the way been there never thought I'd go this deep. I don't I have a track record of do I do things for like two or three years, and then I bounced to something else. So having been around EPP for longer than three years, for me is is it's magical. And it's fun that I hear people say that frequently. Like I didn't know what I was getting into. I'm glad I got into it. Or didn't think I'd be here that long or whatever. So well. My

Unknown: 1:02:50

My Funny story was that I like I had met, I've met Susan through ventures last and she was the only person I had met. And then I started you know, just getting more involved in EPP and started. I decided to take the 91k class and it was fabulous. And it was a pilot at the time. And

Clay Tumey: 1:03:07

what year was that? When you took the MP when k

Unknown: 1:03:09

2019? That

Clay Tumey: 1:03:12

was I was super early in the nine p 1k. Game?

Unknown: 1:03:16

Yeah, actually, it was 2020 it was right during it was right when COVID happened. It was 2020 with a pilot program that isn't a voice or a part of the panel. It was it was like homegrown you know, really incredible, and I just loved it. And you there's a chart within EPP that shows this track that you can be on if you would take that and that you take the path freedom and then you could and I looked at that picture and I went, Ah, that's not happening to me. That's, that's too much that's too deep. And Susan called me and said, We're doing path to freedom applications right now. Why are you taking it? And I said, What? Should I take it? I'm not telling you to take it like, Well, should I take it? I'm not telling you to take it but but if you get your application in by the end of the day. I'm like, Okay, so a couple hours later, I got myself into a path to freedom and, and about halfway through path of freedom. And it dawned on me like Oh god, I'm gonna do this thing. I'm gonna do the thing called guiding him and I was sucked in.

Clay Tumey: 1:04:22

What is that thing that what is that? I'm gonna do this what that draw. I know what it's like to talk to Susan and she's very persuasive in the nicest ways and it's not aggressive at all, but it's also hard to turn away from frankly. And then And then beyond that, this this I don't know it's a it's a, an attraction to or being called to or whatever phrase you want to say there about, you know what? Sure the urge to guide or the or the desire to just do this thing. What is that?

Unknown: 1:04:56

I mean, that's probably what that's to do with incredible, credible question of my life. Like, why am I here? What am I doing? It is this thing like you said, I couldn't turn away from it is this sense that I'm doing something bigger than me, but that I actually can have a piece of it? I mean, I think that I always struggle with how do I, how do I make an impact on the world? I'm just one person, how do I do that. And there was something that told me because it was before I got it, of course, there was something that told me that this could be that thing, where you do have an impact on a person or people, and you can start to change the world. That sounds so cool, kind of It sounds so unrealistic. It sounds though, too big. But it really is this sense of, I'm doing something for me, while I'm doing something for you, while you're doing something, for me, it's reciprocity in the relationship, that I could just start to feel that was the beautiful. Yeah,

Clay Tumey: 1:05:57

and it's funny when you say that about just being one person. And, and I go back to when I was locked up. And I think Susan was just one person, you know, and she was, she was brought in, by a founder of a different program that I was in, who was also just one person. And I think it's, it serves as a nice reminder here that, you know, never, don't never underestimate the power of one person.

Unknown: 1:06:20

And I think that, never underestimate the power. And then when I started to, you know, it happened in coaching, when I would notice my impact of or our impact of the relationship and have the conversation that then impacted her or his relationship with his family and his colleagues. And then it's just that kind of domino effect that started to happen. And they would, I would get reports back from people even long after I coach them about the impact on their life, and all the people around them. And it's it, that ripple is real. Yeah, love that.

Clay Tumey: 1:06:56

So you go, go through nine p 1k. Go through path to freedom. And then you mentioned the image that you saw with the track. So in that I know the answer this. So I'll ask questions that are pretty obvious answers, but I'm asking them for folks who might not know so. Okay, Vin past freedom. And then what is the next step for you after that

Unknown: 1:07:15

AI Training Program Guide, GTP, seven last summer. And it was, you know, a much different kind of application, it felt a lot bigger than path of freedom and IP 1k. And there was a lot of discussion from the, you know, the leads about the faculty and the leaves about this is going to be big, this is going to be big, this is going to be a lot you got to make space in your life. And I'm like, oh, yeah, okay, I got it. You know, I've

Clay Tumey: 1:07:45

done big stuff before, I guess.

Unknown: 1:07:49

You know, I went to college, I'm smart. I got this. Never did did I think, and I kept thinking when I graduated from from my college, that was a big deal. It was it was a good tool. And then I grad then I went through new ventures last, which was a year long coaching program, which was like a master's program. This became almost harder than any of those. The path to freedom harder in the sense that of what it what it took to participate. And what I had to learn. It was like drinking out of a firehose. And so I started GTP last summer, and I'm engaged in one of the most extraordinary two months, I honestly think one of the most extraordinary two months of my life. It was, you know, heart opening, cracking open every part of me testing every single boundary I've ever had, you know, pushing me limit limits wise, you know, sleep wise, everything. It was just really, this incredible, personal challenge that he took on and embraced.

Clay Tumey: 1:08:57

The image of drinking from a firehose is, is accurate, and also hilarious to me. Just I'm picturing this, the sweet little kid who's just thirsty and just wants to drink and then gets assaulted by this massively powerful burst of water that they did not intend to encounter. I just wanted

Unknown: 1:09:15

some water. Exactly. Just wanted a little trickle. And then boom. Yeah, it's like and then you you don't want to You can't stop drinking. You can't turn it away. That's the thing that's so interesting is like okay, more, just give me more. And GBA GDP seven was just really magical. I was I was I had my pod guide was unbelievable. And I kept remembering thinking, I had Scott as my pod guide. He, he allowed us and Jason was in my pod with me. I just really credited him with so much of the holding of pulling that through that class because you'd go to class for two, two days, three hours apiece, and then you'd have a pod meeting where you could just kind of go like what Are we doing that? Like, what? I have so many questions, and he kind of would piece this all together again?

Clay Tumey: 1:10:05

So that's actually, that's where my, you answered the question almost before I even asked. Because that is, that's the next question for me as as as a participant, and then, and then I have some questions for you as having gone through it as a pod guy, but as a participant when you went through G GTP. What, what is the thing? What did the pod meetings do? I mean, what you have class, you have your homework, you have your, your, your not exercises, but like your assignments, and all this in are the or the pod meetings to get clarity around that stuff? Or is it more like, you know, this is hard, I need help? Or is it just like talking to a friend because you need consoling? Because it's harder than you thought it was gonna be or what happens in those pod meetings.

Unknown: 1:10:51

So the pod meetings, I would say, just based on what you just said, it's all of it. And it's absolutely critical. It's the glue for me that kept me together, I can go to school, and I can go to meetings, like we did with the cohort session, those were not those were great, those are easy ish. And then the homework and the LMS, you stay up on it. But those are all individual, those are all you're doing it on your own, the pod gut, the pod meetings were where you could come be with other people who are going through exactly the same course that you were going through and share all of our experiences, which were all different. And then God would really helped to kind of assimilate everything that was going on for us and give us that guidance of those nugget, those golden moments where he would just say, and then think about this, or this is how it is on the inside or, you know, don't worry about that. He just he made everything. Okay, it just calmed all of us down. And the connection in those pod meetings was extraordinary. And that was the intimacy that you get really intimate with your cohort, but it's not the same as in the pod. And the holding that went on there that por la the growth happened.

Clay Tumey: 1:12:07

In your pot. It's three or four people. It's something

Unknown: 1:12:10

like minus six, minus two Hi, small, relatively small. Yeah, yeah,

Clay Tumey: 1:12:16

you still keep in touch with those folks.

Unknown: 1:12:18

I keep in touch with like, half of them. Yeah, we lost two people, the end of the at the end of the session, unfortunately, it's a lot, we lost a lot of people last year in the end, towards the second month.

Clay Tumey: 1:12:30

So we have a word for that attrition, attrition, attrition, because it will happen that it's you start off with, you know, X number of people, and at the end, it will be x minus a certain number of people just it's just how it is always every, every every Absolutely.

Unknown: 1:12:47

And it's so for the right reasons to it's just not where they meant to be at that moment.

Clay Tumey: 1:12:51

Yeah. And they'll say often, it's i just i this, I can't, or I don't I no longer want to, or the list of reasons is, as it's not short, but it's, I have a lot of respect for someone who can say, You know what, I thought I thought, and now I think differently.

Unknown: 1:13:11

And so and there's that, and there's that magnet pole, there's that magnetic pole that you really feel like, oh, I should do this, or I need to do this. Everyone else is doing this, I should say, but I really, I honored the two women who we lost who could have left the program in the second month because it was not right for them.

Clay Tumey: 1:13:29

So one more question about going through GTP as a participant, and then we'll bounce forward to GTP eight. Do you remember? Are there any assignments in particular that stuck out or anything to do with homework or presentations or feedback or anything in that process? When you think of GTP seven that that sticks out to you is is that was tough, and I'm glad it happened?

Unknown: 1:13:54

Yeah, absolutely. I'm smiling because I think you know, one of my answers the the one of them one of the assignments that we did, we did it was during the DEI and B section, we actually did a homework assignment on bias, what's your bias? And that was pretty confronting for me I think of myself as a pretty open minded pretty accepting person. And I was shocked that my biases and how many I had didn't realize that there was many biases Is there is there along this list. So I think what was really kind of revealing to me was that even when I didn't believe I was biased, I was potentially being biased and so that was a that was a very confronting homework assignment and really eye opening. And and let me put down a lot of my attachments to that I didn't realize I had. So that was the really great clarity. It was a it was a kind of a clearing of kind of the some of the garbage that I had going on in my life that I didn't realize I had So that was lovely. The other I would say the other most most memorable was in the second month, we do break we do in breakout rooms, we do presentations, it's the time when we start to present. And we get, at the time, we would get a heads up, who is going to be in your room. And I had in my room I was going to be presenting, I don't remember what I was presenting, but it was going to be with Susan. And with you clay. And for me, it felt really intimidating to try to do it in front of Susan. And then you who I didn't know with well, and it was I just, it was one of the scariest things I've ever done. And I got in, did it. And at the end, Susan said, Hey, can you put down your notes? And just give me three minutes? Completely ad lib. And I did it. And I remember being done. And then the feedback started. And you said, there you are. There you are. And it was just this really beautiful moment because I was so attached to the script and to what I had written into the prep that I had done and all the good student Dana parts of it. And you honored the fact that it's like, there you are, that's what we want. And yeah,

Clay Tumey: 1:16:22

yeah. And we talked frequently, about, you know, connect connection before content, and showing up and being there. And, you know, and and then I say often that it's what you know, doesn't matter if I'm not listening with you, or to you and find my connected with you. And that's, I'm just out. And I love. I love that suggestion from or perhaps request from Susan to just just push all the I'm speaking, I'm paraphrasing, but basically shove all the content to the side and just talk to me and see what shows up. And surprise surprise Dana show, right? Yeah, that's right. That's right. That's right.

Unknown: 1:17:09

And it's you know, it's even that concept of there you are daily Shut up. It's still a it's a it's work in progress. It is work to recognize that that's what's needed, not only for the person listening, and the students on the inside participants wherever it's for me, it's like, that's when I feel my at my most authentic and at peace. Yeah. Good. Thanks for sharing that. Yeah.

Clay Tumey: 1:17:35

So going through GTP as a pod guide, what are some of the things that you that you expected that either did happen or didn't happen? Some things that were different? Or exactly what you what you thought, or any? How was it going through JTPA, not as a participant, but as a guide?

Unknown: 1:17:57

When I was first, when Dana first asked me, it was one of those moments that I was really honored. I mean, really honored just because I knew how important that role was for me last summer. So it was first it was first like this, oh my gosh, this is so incredible. And oh my god, how am I going to do that for somebody else? How am I going to be that person. And we got, I got a smaller little pod, it was just a pot of four. And right off the bat, one of my pod members family had some family issues. And we were dealing with that right off the bat. And try to hold that as well as holding the pod. And she ended up having to leave the program, all the right reasons. And helping her navigate that. And then we had a little pot of three. So it was like a little mighty group. And I think at first there was a little disappointment on their part that we're such a small little group. And it was it really became the magic in the group and try to hold this space to help teach and guide and let them learn how to do this stuff. But not have it be awkward or uncomfortable or forced was this really interesting balance that we had to go through. And we found it and we were it was it was probably one of the most fulfilling, opening. I mean, for me as well. The personal development that I went through in the course over over over the course of GTA was actually really shocking. I kept thinking, Oh, I'm here. I'm here to be a part guide. I'm here to lead. I'm here to impart my knowledge, and it's just bullshit every time I do that. It's so it's so not the case that that's not why I'm here. Like when you said oh, there you are. I'm here to show up as me Eat, and when I mean, they can be them. So it was this discovery of part of myself getting introduced a part of myself for the first time that I didn't even know existed. And when that happens, people that around me can be who they are supposed to be. And it's that reciprocity. Again, it's a beautiful reciprocity, but it's not until I show up, did it really occur?

Clay Tumey: 1:20:22

That came that came up with one of the conversations I had with one of the other guys and that's, it's, it's everything that we talked about when we say, while we're guides, or why you're a guide, instead of a teacher, or, you know, a leader or, you know, whatever language that is commonly used in most places that we just don't use. And if we say it, it's no big deal. But it's your, you're a guide, and you're not there to carry people through everything for them. It's, it's make space, stand shoulder to shoulder and walk with them. That's right, which is, which

Unknown: 1:20:55

was I'm gonna get and get really curious and help them get curious about things that they had held as really very static black and white kind of, you know, kind of places in their life, that this is the way that I am or this is not what I do, or this is what I do, and getting curious with them about some of those emphatic that they started to soften, you could see the softening and opening the Yeah, this is how it changes for me and I thought transformation in my pod. That was extraordinary. Extraordinary.

Clay Tumey: 1:21:26

It's hilarious how fast 30 minutes goes by. And I'm, I know, it's been nice seeing you around and being in GTP. With you, we've I've, I was pretty active this time around too. And so anyways, I don't want to take up more of your time. But just to turn the mic over to you and share with the listener what's on your heart, anything that you'd like to say, to a, perhaps a future guide, or somebody who might be considering something like this,

Unknown: 1:21:51

I think that there's a couple things that just come to mind right off the top where it's mostly about where I find myself in a community that I would never normally have been a part of. And I'm one of those people if I'm not, if I'm not digging on something, you mentioned this earlier, I'll bow bounce, I'll just like find my way out of it pretty quickly. And not only have I not run away, not only by not left any part of EPP but I just keep finding ways to go deeper. And it is really not even a choice it is a draw is a pull for me into an organization I was talking about the cult, without the lemonade. There's no lemonade here. And I love that because I still respect the people that are a part of it, and why they're a part of it. But we're not we're we're being we're leading together with our eyes wide open, there's no there's no magical person behind the curtain, so to speak. The draw that the keeps continuing to pull me into this organization is is real and it's it's significant. And it's based on so many different experiences that I've had, you know, certainly experiences on the inside. There's nothing that compares with the conversation, the the revelation, the beautiful moments that we that we get to have on the inside both profoundly sad and profoundly kind of, you know, opening. And so, so that's certainly what keeps drawing me back in, but it's the exchanges that I get to have within EPP with all kinds of different people from all different kinds of walks of life, who are all in this for all different reasons. And I would say that my exposure to and my experience with my relationships with some of the ambassadors is some of them. I mean, I was a coach of one of the ambassadors that's how I got connected to EPP for a year and a half my relationships with with the ambassadors is precious to me mean really, really precious to me. And it is kind of the lifeblood of this organization, for sure. And it is I think, for me being in GTP I probably pushed myself harder than I've ever pushed myself. And if you're in a situation, if someone's in a situation where they're really curious about this work, being ready to get pushed, and really just stretch is, is it's a really cool place to do it. Because it's it's a gift to yourself, when I know that this has been a gift to me. And as a Type Two, that's not something I'm really good at. And to really find that space for me and to learn and knowing that I can there's this reciprocity, knowing that there's this place that I can give back to and I'm going to get more from it. I'm going to give it back to and it just keeps on It's like this beautiful kind of cycle that we need in the world of, of, of goodness of authenticity of love of love. It's just love so thank you, Clay. I'm Stella. I work with Type Seven. She her pronouns. And how did I come to EPP. It's been about, oh, I'm gonna say over three years now and started more as a coach, working with ambassadors and then getting invited to reconnecting, which was a gift to meet so many involved in EPP and then continued because it just invited me in as a two most recently being a guide.

Clay Tumey: 1:25:59

So you came in, that's an interesting entry point, you came in, as you were a coach, in our coaching program with the ambassadors. And did you so were you already using the Enneagram? Before you came to the EPP? Or was there? What What's your history with the Enneagram?

Unknown: 1:26:19

Thank you, Clay. Yeah. So I was introduced to the Enneagram, when I was certified coaching with new ventures west. So I had some exposure to the Enneagram. And I was intrigued taking courses at the Enneagram narrative tradition. And so while there, I was reintroduced to EPP, because I had met Susan Lessig at a new ventures West class, but I'm on the east coast. So I thought, hey, you know, it's not that easy. I'm in the New York area. And so it was always there, but never as accessible. And so I actually met Jason, at the narrative tradition, and taking some courses there and became certified there concurrently, as I was certifying as a guide with Enneagram Prison Project, that's a lot of work.

Clay Tumey: 1:27:06

That's a lot. And I'm understanding that and I think just just for the listener who might not know, that's a that's a, that's a that's a whole lot of a whole lot and a small amount of time, when you're doing that side by side, or is it? I don't know, I don't want to speak for

Unknown: 1:27:21

Yeah, it is. And at the same time, it's, it's connected, right? So there's a theme that connects it and a community that goes across? And so yes, it is, it is a lot of work, because it also is not just work in a methodology or work and learning something, it's inner work on oneself. Right. And it's inner work on oneself as an individual, and it's working together with others collectively. And so to your point, Clay, holding that space, as one is continuing to grow. And witness one another growing. It is a lot of work. And it's it's deep and profound, and not necessarily fragmented and divided and broad, if that makes sense.

Clay Tumey: 1:28:11

Yeah, it does make sense. And what I'm hearing is, is a thing that I've heard a few times actually, where's this idea of, it's not just about learning content. It's not just I'm not just reading a book and memorizing some definitions and some ideas and some other stuff. I'm working on myself through this process. And that is, that's different, most of our most most, I don't know, at least in the States, our educational style is, you know, give me information, information information, who I am doesn't matter. Just give me the information. And that doesn't seem to be true with with the work that we do. So, I mean, yeah, information is important. You got to have the content, but it's working on yourself and getting to that point to where you can make those connections to share that content with the folks who are who are there. Who are there who need it, frankly, is that is that a fair? Am I Am I restating that fairly or accurately?

Unknown: 1:29:12

Yeah, you are in something that you said clay that that I really, I heard was, you know, sort of it's it's working on who I am. Right? It's not working on what I do. And that's really a distinction. Right? Because what I do is one thing but who I am is how I am and when we connect with one another heart to heart it's also seeing myself so it can be a little scary which is why trust and support and as we started this conversation protecting or not protecting but listen my word projecting right. But really think about respecting my boundaries. And yet sometimes realize in this work, I am protecting certain things. And oh, when when do I sense and feel it's safe within me? II and then with each other, right, and the respect that we are in this work together is that we are discovering, we are exploring. And so that is unique to this work. There's not so much a hierarchy, that there's an expert teacher, and hence the word guide. Right? Right that I and so that to me is makes a real difference in how we explore who we are, how we are. And who we will be.

Clay Tumey: 1:30:29

You went through GTP. Was it seven? As a participant? I

Unknown: 1:30:33

did? Yes. Seven. Remember, Type Seven? GTP? Seven. Yeah.

Clay Tumey: 1:30:36

So you so what are some of the differences going through GTP? Seven as a participant and going through GTP? Eight as a guide? I would imagine that's a very different experience. Oh, yeah.

Unknown: 1:30:51

Yes, it first of all, one is in such a different place, right? So as a participant, the nervousness the Oh, what's this going to be like? It's unfolding, right? It's unfolding. And I think a participant GTP, seven, there was something also to trust to feel the magic to allow it to be and to unfold. And there was I'm not going to, you know, the oh my gosh, like, am I going to perform again, am I going to meet the needs, you know, I don't like the word feedback. And I think it's because of my corporate experience. I'm like, I feel like there's a rating. So I've gotten over that, but it's still like cringe a little bit. And, and so being, but yet, at the same time in GTP, seven being held, right, and being held that it is about practicum. It is about being safe for others, and I would say as a participant. When I compare it to GTP, eight and TTP eight as a as a guide, I knew where we were going, do you know what I'm saying? Like I knew the map, right? The session plans where we're supposed to be, whereas as a participant, I am I'm exploring in a different way. Yeah. And yeah. And in GTP, eight, I was really impressed as a guide, to also see how much we learned in GTP. Seven, that would create a much more clear, robust, not disciplined in a way that was constructed but more structure to GTP. Eight that provided more support for the participants than we might have had experienced in GTP. Seven.

Clay Tumey: 1:32:39

Any examples? come to mind on that?

Unknown: 1:32:42

Yeah, some of the examples were around clarity of pacing, the homework, you know, what I would have sent GTP seven,

Clay Tumey: 1:32:51

there's a lot of homework, by the way, is literally as a homework tracker. That's how much homework Yes, there is.

Unknown: 1:32:58

Yes, yeah, there was a lot of homework. And so when GTP seven, it's all do, I was little again, I could procrastinate in that without feeling or sensing that. And I realized in retrospect, oh, it would have been good if I had done it more along the way. So in GT P eight, there's more self empowerment of accountability of tracking your assignments, there's the pod sessions, which are the smaller groups that you actually review and get to share your homework together. So much more transparency, of I'd say peer support in sharing what am I learning? How am I approaching this? And we we had our pods and GTP seven, and they were wonderfully supportive. What we add in GTP, eight was a little more of the review of the logistics and the support around what to do when it is due, and to share more transparently the components of each other's homework. Gotcha. So

Clay Tumey: 1:33:58

it's, it's more light is shined for the participant on what Just what the hell is happening? Basically,

Unknown: 1:34:06

I would think so although I'm sure if I talk to a participant DTPA they'll probably describe it just like I did. GTP seven. I've never, I can't describe it for someone as a participant. Yeah. And also, I mean, it's, you've been through it too. So not only are you are you guide, but you've been through it as a participant and you and anytime you do something, the more you do it, the more familiar you get, you know, with with the process, so it would make sense for participant to still potentially feel a little bit of, of, of, you know, maybe being lost is too big of a worry, but just like not knowing like what's what's what's around the corner, do they do they have

Clay Tumey: 1:34:44

do the participants have access to a like a master syllabus or a plan or like, did they know what weeks which things are happening? Or are they are they are they told like as as the time comes, how does that work? For the participants,

Unknown: 1:35:02

yeah, no, we all receive principle Participants included this a syllabus, okay. And the syllabus does have week by week, the general topics, right that are going to happen. And they also receive the assignments ahead of time what is due when, and something that we also learned is probably even before GTP, nine kicks off, is have some of those meetings earlier, because it's a lot to just start, and then you're getting everything that's due. And it's not all due at the same time. But you see what homeworks? Do you see what practicums are there? There's still clarity, though, right? And and, you know, we're all, we all are drawn to this work, to want to make a difference. So to invest, right, because to be in guide training, I've gone through nine p 1k. I've done path to freedom. I've applied for this. And I'm committing to the work for on me, with me with others. And then upon graduating and what word I would use. I think, yeah, I go to apprenticeship, right. So even then it's there's more of apprenticing. So ensuring that we are all doing our own work so that we are safe as we open up to do work with others, right, that is so critical. And so part of the training, we can sometimes get caught up in the performance of what to do when and we can give as much clarity of that. And so the more that we can make that framework as clear as possible, then it is the container that we can do our own work within while we are continuing our work. And we're preparing to guide others, right. So that's a we're doing to there's a continuum of the work that's going on, I guess I'd say yeah. And you said, I want to I want to go back to a word that you said said a couple times actually talking about the practicum. And a lot of folks who listen to the podcast will will know that we're using the same language we we a lot of folks are are from are already doing this stuff. So there's a lot of language that we use that they that they don't require explanation. And then there's also the small chance that there's somebody who's listening, who doesn't know anything, this might be the first time they've listened even to the podcast. And so for that person, could you give a brief overview, like what exactly is a practicum? And you mentioned earlier about the feedback and some other things? What what, you know, what, uh, what goes on in the practicums? Yes. So there's, you know, use, I've used the word homework, practice practicum, right. So homework is something that I'm achieving, and I'm getting some feedback on but but it's feedback, that's, you know, my learning, pure learning, right, I'm practicing certain skills, and I'm also getting some feedback from a few of my, my colleagues, my peers from the guides, and then I move into practical. And so practicum is much more I am actually now teaching. I'm actually now guiding portions of the modules, I'm guiding with someone else, I'm actually in a practicum, doing what I would do guiding. And it's abbreviated, because it's, it's, you know, might be 20 minutes, half an hour. And in that, as I prepare for that I do that I am ensuring that I have the EPP curriculum. And I'm bringing myself to that my story, my work, who and how I am in this. And when I do that I have others that witness my doing that in a supportive way. Many times there are ambassadors who join us, which is wonderful. There are other guides, and there are others from the cohort of the guide training. And once I do that, I pause to actually give myself feedback. First, how did I do? Is the regrowth edge for me, what did I do that I really felt I did well, so self reflection and self awareness is so critical, because as a guide, there will be times I may need to stop in the middle of guiding to say, Oh, where am I? How am I right now? What am I doing? Well, pause, reflect. And so that reflection of my growth edge and what I did well, then hearing the same feedback on those parameters, what is it that worked? Where are there some areas for an edge of growth from an ambassador, that's a gift? What's it like to do this in custody? How might I be received from my colleagues and from guides? And so I take that and that feedback, I take and I own in my own way of doing self development. I actually record that feedback for me, and I practice and in the next practicum I hope to address some of that The practicums are different not only because of the feedback, if I did not do a certain level of readiness in the practicum, I then get to redo the practicum. So what's very important in the practicum? Is they are, I would say, Arias have an approved, or no, you're not ready, a redo. But you do have the opportunity to redo with a beautiful feedback. And so I'd say that's the practicum is that helpful? Clay

Clay Tumey: 1:40:32

100%. And there's, there's a few things that I that I know about it. And for whatever reason I'm hearing for the first time now that I just really love about the way that we do that. First is the self reflection. So it does depend a bit, you're, you might have four people, five people in a breakout. And then you have the person doing their, their, their presentation or their lesson. And then after that everybody else will get feedback. But it starts with the person who did it. And how do you feel about that? And yeah, it's in real time. What do you think? And we have a structure, it's what do you think you do? Well, like you said, What do you think you did? Well, what do you what would you like to do differently? And it's actually really cool to see people in the moment, assessing what they just did, because now all the nerves are gone, there might be some kind of adrenaline dump. For some people that happened. Everybody experiences things differently. And, and then we move on to other folks, you know, giving, giving their feedback. And we follow that same structure, what we thought you did, well, what we thought you could use, you know, an area of improvement, and there's always, always one of each, there should be yes. And if you can't listen to somebody talk for 20 minutes, and have at least one of each. I don't think you were listening. That's just, that's just my perspective, or my opinion.

Unknown: 1:41:53

And, and,

Clay Tumey: 1:41:55

and and so that's one thing I love about it. And then something else that I that I heard is without you saying it, what I heard you said was it's a it's a pass or a redo, which is massively different than pass or fail? Yes, there is no fail. It's not there's you didn't get an F and now go home, you failed. It's here's the thing where you can improve? And we will, and we think you can, you know, we think you we think you will if you you know, if you implement this feedback, it's so different than a typical learning experience, or typical practicing experience. No,

Unknown: 1:42:30

no. And part of that is when when you join that with what is it that we're looking for, right? And so it is the ability to be present. We content is a component, but it's not the only component. Right? We're also are you present here? Are you able to create a safe container? Are you engaging the others in this? Right? Does it feel authentic? And so we do, you know, we use the term and others may have said the rubric, which is this way to actually think

Clay Tumey: 1:42:59

that first one to bring it up, actually.

Unknown: 1:43:03

You're the first one to say to him, Listen, my memory is failing, which I don't think it is, you might be the first one to bring it up was talking about the rubric. So there's a scary word What the hell is what the hell is a rubric? Oh, man. I'm looking at Where's a rubric that I can refer to? Because, well, okay, so. So, I would say that the rubric, when we look at giving feedback, it also is against some certain expected, I'm gonna use the word capabilities, competencies, that as a guide, that I would be seeking to hold myself accountable to. And when I look at those, it's not like I to your point, I pass or fail, or I ever arrived, because how I am in each session may look a little different each time, right. So as a guide, I could be looking at feeling that I held presents in this session. Next the following week, I could say, oh, my gosh, I had so much trouble being present. So the beauty of something like the rubric is can I locate myself, right? Similar to what we talked about above below the line? Can I locate myself where I am. And so when we look at it, we call it x, I'm looking at it now the universal observation of how we did so. So I look at and this is yeah, I'm just looking at now is can I manage the logistics? Can I can I technically share the screen? Can I upload files because as we're guiding, particularly in custody, there's a lot of logistics that need to be handled and respected. Homework, getting it back to participants on time, because if we don't, unlike now, we're in lockdown their participants who never got their homework back, which breaks my heart. So the accountability that operations is not just something administrative. It's also a container of holding technical capability to serve. Right, the presence we talked about the community of EPP and holding a safe container, and content. And then am I self aware. So the beauty of that is we can look at this and say, Ah, these are key to me being able to really be present and relevant. And I hate to use the word effective, but I guess I'd say, of joining and inviting to do this work and making it safe to do it. Yeah.

Clay Tumey: 1:45:40

I like affective for the record. And I'll go with you, I'll go with you with what you said instead of that, I was on board with that. And when you said it. I kind of you know, when you when you explain the the practicum. And talking about the feedback and how all that works, I remember some, I've been a part of a lot of those, and I enjoy it, it's one of the things that I love doing as an ambassador, it's one of my favorite things, actually, sometimes it's a little uncomfortable, frankly, because there are some very unpleasant things that I feel like needs to be said. And sometimes I'll use some real loose like language here, just saying, like, if somebody totally bombs, it's not going to serve them to ignore that. And you know, it's not my job to make them feel better, if they, if they do bomb, and what is my job is to be there with them, and support them as they grow into the guide that we believe that they can be. So if they use phrases or slang, I gotta say, hey, that's like, don't do that in prison, especially. Or if they completely miss a content piece, then you get it. So while there is a lot of support there, it can also it can be unpleasant and uncomfortable some of the feedback that we give, so as a guide, and you're holding this for for the participants, and in particular in your pod, like how does that? How does that look from your perspective, when you know that someone struggled? And then got some, some ouchy feedback, shall we say?

Unknown: 1:47:21

Yeah, yeah, it's, um, you know, I think for so many of us in our society, when there's something that we didn't achieve, or do in a way that we believe, needed to meet a standard, right, so it gets back to something we talked about earlier, our academic or school, right, things come up for us. And so if I'm didn't do something, well, then I'm bad. Right? So it's really separating the the behavior or something that I said, from who I am. And, you know, I, when you're talking clay, I was just thinking we're inviting to a cultural competence, that I can appreciate being inclusive, that I can understand, who am I speaking to, and their experience? Right? You know, we talk a lot about neuro diversity, equity, inclusion, right? Belonging, that's where the feedback makes. The difference is we're in being invited to understand how is it to ensure that we're not unintentionally, and I'll use the word unintentionally creating a barrier that will affect the ability for us to credibly engage in inner work? Because the invitation is not to take notes and pace, pass an exam when we're guiding? It's not? It's actually an invitation to say, can you put your personality aside a little bit? Can you maybe open up a little bit the armor there, to have a vulnerability to love You, yourself to have compassion for yourself? So the feedback, Clay when it's given, even in something like operations, or language, or lack of presence, it is because the work is about being able to be present, open, supportive, and knowing that it's the ouch is it's a bigger Ouch. If I go into those spaces, without awareness, yeah. Yeah. And it's not even an ounce on them, though. Clay it's right. Because part of it is think about we're going in with populations that already have a vulnerability. So why should I trust you? And you come in and you haven't done your own work or you're not aware of that. So So I think the awareness is so critical. And so, and the way that it's delivered, I've been in those feedback sessions with you. I know it's hard sometimes to not, you know, we're so used to telling everybody why you did great.

Clay Tumey: 1:49:58

What you want to do Oh, you're awesome thumbs up, like, that's what I want to do.

Unknown: 1:50:05

And the issue is maybe I was thumbs up on Tuesday, and I crashed on Thursday. So, you know, it's not like, that's the issue too, which is what I love about the self observation. Right? So even as an apprentice, these rubrics don't go away. You're looking at, how am I doing? at certain intervals? Because we go up and down. We do. And, and that's, I think, bringing awareness and intention. So if I make an ouch, I can pause and go, I'm sorry. Like, whoa, what just happened here? Right, that if I can acknowledge I missed up to in a moment. I don't know. To me that opens the bridge of our humanity. Yeah.

Clay Tumey: 1:50:51

And you're also demonstrating that this is, this is how this is what it looks like, when when I, you know, I have the freedom to use a little more colorful language here. Like if I fuck up, and then I can immediately say, Hey, I fucked up, like you're demonstrating to other people how to go about that, because we ultimately all fuck up. And that's just how that's just, like you said, that's just that's that's the humanity in it. Because we're

Unknown: 1:51:16

it is and it's a difference, right? I fucked up. I am not a fuckup. There's a difference. Big difference.

Clay Tumey: 1:51:22

Yeah, yeah. Because the action is just a misstep. But as a person, I'm, I'm, I'm okay. Like, I am not an accident. I just made it out. I just, I just made an Oopsie. I'm not Oopsie. Yes.

Unknown: 1:51:36

To remind ourselves up, but and it's hard, right? It's, that's hard. So to do that with with caring, and again, in the practicum, there's a redo.

Clay Tumey: 1:51:47

And the redo will happen as many times as it needs to until it's there. And there's, there's no, there never is a failure. There's not a failing grade, there's that there's nothing like that. It's just a more invitation to keep to keep working, which is.

Unknown: 1:52:02

And then I think what also happens is I'm, I'm responsible. So so as a participant, and as a guide, I have autonomy, I have agency. And so I may, at some point, say, Oh, I don't know that I'm ready yet. And that's okay. I'll help you get ready. But it's not a it's not a fail. But I may also say, and I remember with some of the guides that I work with, will say, Whoa, I'm not able to be here today, I'm not ready for this session, there's so much going on in my life, I need more support,

Clay Tumey: 1:52:33

it's nice to hear from, from from from other guides who you know, who go through this process, both as a participant, obviously, and now as a guide. Because as much as I know about EPP and how things are, you know, I don't, I haven't experienced everything. I'm not a guide. I'm I'm an ambassador, with a lot of years under my belt. But there are things that I just don't know, and I can't explain to people. So thank you for sitting and explaining all those things. to folks who are curious, I'm convinced that people do, do listen with quite a bit of curiosity about all the things that we do. So with that, I'll just say thank you. And thank you again. And any any closing thoughts from you, you get the final word here, I'm going to literally turn off my mic and just turn the floor over to you with anything that you'd like to say to the listener or to anybody? Well,

Unknown: 1:53:25

first of all, I want to thank you clay, as an ambassador, who was with us through so much of GTP eight, and all the ambassadors, who I also felt were guides. Yeah, guides may be of a different sort. But but our guides in this work. And I think we we all can guide in different levels. So the ambassadors, I think, each one of you for all that you are and be and I would say for the participants for the courage, right. And I and I just thought of this today, and I encouraged. So with courage and encouraged together, that this work is always organic and starting and has such a purpose of the heart. And so when I think of the GTP in particular, I feel like we've opened a legacy of, of energy, of commitment. You know, I can close my eyes and see the cohort six and see everyone and the courage that each person brought and the support to one another, and the opening and the maybe tripping up a little bit and then lifting themselves up. And so I feel excited. I see the possibilities. I see the expansion. I see the commitment. And so I just want to thank everyone who's participating And I encourage for those who are thinking about guide training. We say it's not for the faint of heart. But it is for those that have a heart. And there's a resilience but there's not. There's an invitation

Deb Horton: 1:55:26

I'm Deb, Type Six, I use she her pronouns. That's it. That's how we always introduce herself. And glad to be here, Clay, I'm glad that I was able to take part and GTP eight as a pod guide, and I,

Unknown: 1:55:49

I really enjoyed it. Yeah.

Clay Tumey: 1:55:51

And you're a guide with EPP and you're a podcast, as you said, in GTA, is this your first time being a pod guy in the guide training program? Or have you done that previously,

Deb Horton: 1:56:03

I was I was also a pod guy last year for TTP seven. And so I knew kind of,

Unknown: 1:56:11

I knew going in, like,

Deb Horton: 1:56:15

the growth opportunities for me that would be there. You know, that. It's easy for me. I think I talked to Dana and Suzanne, about this before, you know, before doing it, it's easy for me to be a cheerleader.

Unknown: 1:56:30

And you know, the coach part

Deb Horton: 1:56:33

of it, if you kind of let that those are the two aspects, I feel like we're holding, you know, being a cheerleader and encouraging and also being a coach and providing, hopefully, really helpful and supportive feedback for how to

Unknown: 1:56:49

how to improve. And so

Deb Horton: 1:56:52

it was like that it wasn't, it was really, it was a really great opportunity. And I felt like for me, personally, it's everything when EPP feels like an opportunity to do my own inner growth and inner work in community together. So certainly this was that for me. And the biggest delight of all those just being a part of part of the team, you know, that my particular pod, we were pod a which, immediately when I saw that I thought pot awesome. And we were pot is really such a great group. And we had a really good time together. And then the the Suzanne and Dawn and Janice della and I as

Unknown: 1:57:36

a team to was, was just delightfully fun being with them.

Clay Tumey: 1:57:42

Yeah, but it's interesting, the thing, the first thing that you mentioned, is about your own opportunity for, for personal growth. And this is a common thread that has come up with, I believe everybody so far is is, is yeah, you're there. You're a guide. So you're helping the next batch of, you know, prospective guides, you know, come through, but you're, it's you're not just there as a source of information, or you're not just there as a, as the head of the class, you know, kind of running things or anything like that you're, you're there and experiencing your own your own growth in the process. And it's, it's kind of it's kind of cool. And it's also super unusual, because I don't think that's typical, in most most forms of education, I think I'll say like, you wouldn't see a lot of teachers saying, you know, well, here I am teaching third grade again. And I'm surprised at all the things that I learned because that's just not how it works, right? How, how does that work? Why is it that if you're there as a guide, and you're there for the for the new folks? How do you see that inner work in your own life? The potential the opportunities, kind of showing up? Where does Where's there time for that? If you're grading homework and doing all the other stuff that comes along with being a guy? Where is there room for that?

Unknown: 1:59:09

Well, well, I don't

Deb Horton: 1:59:13

know. I just feel like if there isn't room for that, then I don't want to be doing it. You know, because I know I haven't arrived. And I got it to me it also feels like the bigger culture of EPP it's it's just it's part of the reason why I love being involved with EPP and it's, it's a community of

Unknown: 1:59:34

people. You know, when

Deb Horton: 1:59:37

the women I've met at Shakopee women's prisons where I've taught and all the other people involved in the EPP it's just community of people who are interested in being honest with looking inside and seeing what's there. Having the courage not to turn away from that and I'm like, we're all just on a journey together doing our own work and nope, He's, nobody's arrived, nobody's there. So it just, it feels like it fits like, it wouldn't,

Unknown: 2:00:06

it wouldn't work if,

Deb Horton: 2:00:08

if it was the other way around, because as, as you know, as most people listening to this podcast, now we do the work together, that's what it means, you know, and

Unknown: 2:00:18

the other day,

Deb Horton: 2:00:20

I was, you know, Type Six, can go to places have like lots of worrisome thoughts or angst or whatever, you know, I'm laying there in bed, and I'm thinking about I was having some negative thoughts about this podcast, you know, and me participating, and what am I going to say, and that type of thing. And the thing that came to me was, you know, one of the biggest things this is about to me is self compassion.

Unknown: 2:00:50

And, and I, I love

Deb Horton: 2:00:53

encouraging other people towards self compassion, but it didn't hit me right away that Okay, in this moment, can I show myself compassion? You know, first time, there's like, a whole nother deeper level of, okay, you know, it's okay, if it's not perfect. It's

Unknown: 2:01:09

okay. I don't know. So self compassion,

Deb Horton: 2:01:13

I feel like is a big theme for EPP and it's a really a big theme and GTP, a and other all the DI training programs that I've been a part of. Because you see, it's hard. It's really hard. And, and you know that from being a big part of it yourself. And oh, gosh, there's so many opportunities for self compassion for all of us, but especially to the unbelievably awesome people who are in the process, and who are who are actually doing the practicums and getting feedback all the time. And

Unknown: 2:01:51

now,

Clay Tumey: 2:01:52

yeah, I'd like to try I think maybe in a future episode, we'll chat with some of the participants and see, you know, what it's like, from their perspective, I didn't I actually kicked around the idea of, of doing that for this episode, some, but there's so fresh out of it. And actually, some of them are still doing reduce. And I don't want to they've they fit through, they've been through enough.

Unknown: 2:02:13

Yeah, no kidding. Okay, so that could be part two, this could be part one they could, I would love that would be great to hear from them.

Clay Tumey: 2:02:19

That's I like it part two. And that, that just might be the next episode. I never know, I usually don't know what the next episode is going to be until the current one is finished. But I think that one makes the most sense. And, and yeah, they, they have had a busy couple of months. And, you know, going going through GTP. It is, it's an interesting thing to see. And I and I've experienced it from my perspective, which is that of an ambassador, and not as a guide, not as a participant. And there's a lot that goes on in GTP. That's, that's unlike anything else I've experienced elsewhere. So like the practicums, the, you know, practicing a lot of these, a lot of the participants are, are doing centering practices, they're leading in a centering practice for the first time. And there's a lot of things that are that are that are different here. What would you say as like a like a brief overview for somebody who might be listening for the first time and doesn't know what the guided training program is? What what what would you say? Just a brief summary of what exactly goes on? You know, it's a couple months long, I don't I don't know exactly how many weeks it is, but what what are those participants going through? Well,

Deb Horton: 2:03:42

when you as you were talking, that thing that kept coming popping into my mind is everything all at once. Because it's there is pre work and and I think in next versions of GPP, we might have more pre work. But there there are books, there's reading, there's a bunch of stuff to do ahead of time. And then jumping right in. I mean, there, I think we did have a technology orientation ahead of time. But that just aside from everything else, all of the technology that we use, and all of the tracking that we use that we asked them to do their own version of because that's what we do when we're teaching in jails and prisons, that type of tracking with you know, homework and just attendance and there's there's there's Marco Polo, there's slack, there's Google Drive, I don't know what else am I forgetting clay, I mean, there's so many things that

Unknown: 2:04:36

that that that layer is is heavy and then then there is the part about mean the Enneagram we

Deb Horton: 2:04:51

know that they've been through our two classes, and so we know that they know some about the Enneagram but there's paneling some people haven't done any paneling before. So there's teaching about paneling, there's teaching about holding, creating the container. It's so it's amazing to me how much is in that two week time period, or that two month time period. It's, it's amazing to me and so to be taking in a lot of information, and then we one of the biggest things that we do in EPP what I, I did before EPP and where the reason I love EPP is that we talk about what's right about you. And we talk about the looking inside. And what is that true self? The part of you that shines, you know, what is that light inside of you that shines and divine spark or whatever words you might want to use

Unknown: 2:05:48

to really honestly, look at that and start with that. I think that's what, like,

Deb Horton: 2:05:57

undergirds everything and kind of like saves it from being a disaster for everybody. Because, because we can always come back to excuse me when we when we run up against our shortcomings and you know, our overwhelms and all that stuff. I mean that that's the anchor, you know, that we can come back to? So I don't know if I'm answering thoroughly or not. But those are just a few thoughts. Yeah,

Clay Tumey: 2:06:20

for sure. And it's I took a peek at one of the trackers. And it's I think it's 14 sessions, which are typically twice a week. And so with, there's a break in there. So it is it is basically it's like a, what is that seven or eight weeks, something like that, once it starts that doesn't include the pre work and stuff like that. Something that you said there. And I kind of want to kind of want to go deeper on this just to understand you talk about talking about what's what's good about or what's right about us, but to us to use myself as an example because that's, I'm okay, I'm okay being in the spotlight here. It's easy for me to know what I do, that's not good. It's easy for me to know how I show up in the world that's unpleasant, or where I'm an asshole or whether I'm a jerk or, like, it's so easy to, to just pinpoint a thing that I don't like about myself and try to stop doing it. What's hard is to say, What do I do? Well, what why do people like me? And so just from my limited perspective, if I'm thinking in terms of energy, if it's easy to do the one thing and hard to do the other? Where is the where is the value? Or why is it better? Why is it EPP it's approach to focus on what's right about me, when it's so easy to see all the negative things about me?

Unknown: 2:07:44

Why is that? Well, why is that? I'm just curious. I mean, I have something to say. But why do you think?

Clay Tumey: 2:07:51

I don't know. I mean, the part of my process was being shown all the negative traits that people see in me, and in it. And I had to agree with that. And, and for the record, I agree with our approach, and I support our approach. And I'm glad that's how we do it. So I'm being a little bit of a devil's advocate. With the question, it's good, which is hopefully obvious. And if it's not, then I just said it. And so but, but to me, it was it was like arrogant, condescending, all these things that my mom and I talked about in a previous episode, actually. And I had to agree with that. And I had to face the reality of who I was.

Unknown: 2:08:30

And

Clay Tumey: 2:08:34

the irony is, is, I already knew that I just didn't care I in at the point where I started caring. That's where I started looking for solutions. So what I didn't know is, you know, I'm a Type Five and what I what I didn't know about Type Five in general, or me specifically, is the goodness that existed inside of me and in which our, you know, our, there's a long list of things that are good about me, and that are good about Type Five in general, and that are good about all people. And so, but it's still easier for me to just go, Hey, I'm being an asshole. Let's stop being an asshole. That's easier than saying how do I find the light and help it shine? more brightly?

Deb Horton: 2:09:21

Yeah, well, I think they're super connected, like two sides of the same coin, the same thing really almost. Because, I mean, if we, I'm like you, and I think probably many of us are. What we see first is our shortcomings. I mean, that's what we know. I know about myself.

Unknown: 2:09:38

And but what I

Deb Horton: 2:09:42

what I did before, and I think what's different about the approach that we take is it i i saw it, I judged it and I tried to push it away. I didn't embrace it. And so to have that kind of compassion for myself as I sit with My, the pain of my whatever it is

Unknown: 2:10:05

to really

Deb Horton: 2:10:06

imagine and feel that I can hold my own pain and hold myself with compassion and

Unknown: 2:10:14

look at my fear. And I had this experience one

Deb Horton: 2:10:23

time was kind of like in my imagination, but I think of it as like an imaginative prayer, you know, but I saw myself as a young person, like maybe I don't know how old seven or eight or something. But what I saw in my mind's eye was myself putting up a manhole cover in the street, and I was peering out. And I was scared, I saw the fear in my eyes. And so I imagined myself going over and sitting down on the street next to myself and talking and then ended up crawling down into the sewer sitting next to myself, and, like, what is it? What are you afraid of what is you know, just talking and having compassion for that little person? Who was me. And that's the difference, I feel like, that's what we're inviting when we look at are the parts of us that are hard. And maybe it was assholes, or whatever, you know, like that is, there's something behind that. And it is us, usually trying to cover up our divine spark, it's, it's, it's, you know, the mimic of the divine spark, and there's a really good reason, there's a really good reason for it. And it protected us at me, this is nothing new that you haven't heard before. Many, you know, one that I mean, it's not new to anyone probably listening to this podcast, but it's so true. And, and if we can really hold that pain and have compassion for ourselves, then that's where to me that for me, that's where my growth really continues. And, and I think that GTP eight, gosh, that's like, you've got so much going on the people that participants have this, and then the guides do have so much to do. And it's easy, it was easy for me to like fall into overwhelm, you know, just ending as a guide than a participant. And then can I can I see that part of myself have compassion for that and then and then come to a place of trust, you know, like, Okay, I'm not going to let this overwhelm stop me like, sometimes it does. That was one nice little spot in GTP, eight for me, or

Unknown: 2:12:29

I'm like, No,

Deb Horton: 2:12:30

I'm just not going to believe that overwhelm. I'm just gonna keep going. It's okay.

Clay Tumey: 2:12:36

That sounds like something that requires practice. No, I'm just not gonna believe that.

Deb Horton: 2:12:40

It is it? Oh, God. Yes, it does. It requires a lot of practice. I remember my, my first Enneagram teacher, Anne Marie, who's local person here, who's just an amazing person. And one of the classes I took from her. She said, You know, when you get into that place where your mind is spinning, and you're all those thoughts that are going through, like arrows, and every different direction. In my head, she said, she said, you're throwing your energy on the ground. And I'm like, wow, I have a choice. I can do back my thoughts somewhere else. I mean, that had never even occurred to me, that was years ago, I'm still practicing it. But that was that was just another example of it. You know, like those thoughts of overwhelm or like that those arrows being

Unknown: 2:13:25

shot through. And I could,

Deb Horton: 2:13:29

I could like, hold it and recognize for what what it was and have some compassion for it. And then

Unknown: 2:13:34

and then No,

Deb Horton: 2:13:37

like to come to a place of trusting in myself that this is not going to, like put me in bed for three days, I'm going to keep going. Yeah,

Clay Tumey: 2:13:46

it's funny, my, the, the last person that I had as a seller before I got out, also a Type Six, I have a lot of Type Six in my life. It's Dana and I actually were joking about this the other day, I have so many, so much Type Six around me. And one of the one of the, I think, kind of epiphanies that he had was saying it a different way. But but the same, I think the same meaning is that I didn't die. You know, this thing that I thought would kill me didn't kill me. So and it's like many of the things that we that we do and that we learned. It's a practice. It's a it's a thing that's very difficult today, but I'm going to try and then tomorrow it's still difficult, but I did a little better. And then over time, it becomes a muscle that is just stronger. Yeah. And that's that's a good thing.

Deb Horton: 2:14:37

Yeah. Somebody, somebody who was in my path to freedom class last time had this beautiful analogy, and I've used it ever since and I was she had done a lot of work and someone asked her well how did you how did you make that changes? That was the kind of the topic and and she said it's like you have two marble jars and the one marble jar is all full of marbles and That's the hard part, you know, and every time you make a little decision, like what we're talking about, you just put one marble into the jar, and it's one marble into the jar. And I think that's a good description of it.

Clay Tumey: 2:15:12

I love that. That would be a fun podcast title, one marble into the jar? I have a question. And it's not even a question. It's just, I just want to open the floor. Anything that you'd like to say? Or include here. Any questions that I did not ask that you want to answer? What would you say to the listener, anybody who might be considering starting this track, which starts with 91k, into past freedom, which, you know, that's, that's, that's the pre, that's the first two things, classes that happened before GTP is even an option, or even a, even a thing they talked about. But to the to the listener, any anything, I'll just leave the give you the last words here and anything that you'd like to say? Or like, any questions you'd like to answer that I didn't ask or whatever's whatever's on your mind? Well,

Deb Horton: 2:16:02

what popped into my mind was the words from a song that it's the song is kind of about relationships, and that they're, they're hard, you know, sometimes, but the line is, it's good work if you can get it to David Wilcock, so, but I love that. And that's what I feel about this. It's good work, if you can get it. I mean, can you? Do you have the time to take these classes? Do you have the heart to do it? Do you? Do you have the courage to face yourself?

Unknown: 2:16:36

Can you and you go all in,

Deb Horton: 2:16:38

in this process, and it is such good work, and there is such love? I mean, I guess that's, that's the other thing I would say that has always drawn me to EPP is that I've always seen and felt and even before I was a part of each EPP that love is kind of like the undercurrent of it all. And that's, that's starting with what's right about you. It's it's in its, it's in everything, you know, that I think.

Unknown: 2:17:08

And when

Deb Horton: 2:17:11

I when I just think about my experience at Shakopee women's prison. That's which has been an amazing experience. And we've been haven't been there since before COVID.

Unknown: 2:17:21

But it's, it's about love the, you know, the people who

Deb Horton: 2:17:27

have supported me in my training as a guide and my ongoing learning as a guide that times I've made mistakes. I mean, it's it's all it's been love, you know, it's it's, we're all we're all trying to with this vendor or another thought, you know, with guidance, something I said earlier, the giving feedback, you know, can be hard for me and but to, for me to put it in the perspective of we're all going towards the same goal. And it's all for all of us. The purpose of giving hard feedback is because we care about our every participant in every class, and so it's how can we hold people with love? How can we?

Unknown: 2:18:16

I don't know just share

Deb Horton: 2:18:20

it's so much more than just sharing information. And that's part of what's hard about it. It is sharing the it's sharing and knowing the information, but it's it's holding ourselves and holding others with love and courage in the heart.

Clay Tumey: 2:18:48

For more information about EPP, please visit Enneagram prison project.org We appreciate your time and attention today. Stay tuned for future episodes of the podcast which you can expect on the first Tuesday of every month as we continue to tell the story of the Enneagram Prison Project