Episode 9: Conversations at the Dinner Party

Clay Tumey: 0:05

Hi, my name is Clay Tumey and I am an ambassador for Enneagram Prison Project. As we approach our 10th anniversary, we thought it'd be fun to sit down and have a chat with all the people who've had a major impact along the way with EPP. We upload new episodes on the 12th of every month. So if you're wondering why you're hearing from us today, here on the 30th Well today is giving Tuesday. Giving Tuesday is the Tuesday after Thanksgiving here in the States, and it is a global generosity movement, unleashing the power of people and organizations to transform their communities and the world. Thanks to the generosity of a donor just like you on Giving Tuesday, EPP is doubling the impact of every donation dollar for dollar up to $100,000. Funds will support EPP ability to expand our programming, including piloting our eight module curriculum with those experiencing incarceration, at facilities and in regions that are new to us. For more information and to make a gift, check us out online at Enneagram prison project.org. On today's episode, I speak with Robin grant and Dr. Heather Greenwald. Robin is a graphic designer and an EPP guide. You might also know Robin from the many mentions here on the podcast, he is the person that I hand off these recordings to each month, just to make sure that everything is nice and clean, and appropriate and ready for the listening audience. Dr. G, as many of us ambassador's call her is the chief of mental health at a maximum security prison. We first met her three years ago, I believe at the IEA conference in Cincinnati, it was quite interesting. And also just a lot of fun to sit and chat with. I hope you enjoy today's bonus episode of The Enneagram Prison Project podcast. This is a little surreal, because I feel like I give this pretty free three episode, you know, speech to everybody. And I don't always remember what I cut out when I give it to you. And so I'll just tell you the same thing that that might be cut out. Sometimes when I send it to us it all this can be deleted. I'm going to send this to the wonderful Robin grant after we're done. And then he will fix anything that I missed. But yeah, this is, this is really cool. I'm glad you're sitting down with us. And as you know, we've already started. This is how we roll. So tell us who you are, what you are, where we are anything that you think is relevant, and then we'll just figure out what to chat about.

Robin Grant: 2:43

Awesome, thanks, clay. This is surreal, because I'm usually in the backdrop, listening to podcasts and loving them. I am Robin grant, I am a graphic designer working with the Enneagram Prison Project. I'm also a guide. And I've been with the project for probably it's just been three years now. So

Clay Tumey: 3:04

what of those titles like what give me some chronology if if what came first? And then what did you add next? Because you do a lot. And even and I know you said like graphic garden, like all the things it describes to a certain point, but you do a and I think this is an actual, this might be metric, but you do a shit ton of stuff for EPP. What came first? How did you get involved? Where what is your entry point and into that? And then, you know, more recently, I think is when you became a guide, right?

Robin Grant: 3:37

Is this correct? So I started with EPP as a graphic designer and a multimedia design background. I was working in freelance design. And I was not really feeling fulfilled. And I loved the Enneagram. And I was studying the Enneagram. On the side is we many of us do. And I had this moment in my life where I said I really feel like I would be more fulfilled if I was doing design with the Enneagram. I don't know who needs a designer in the world. But I'm here and I want to I want to design with what I'm passionate about. Wouldn't it be great if I woke up in the morning, and I could just, you know, work on Enneagram diagrams and work on instructional design around the Enneagram. So I had put that intention out into the universe and actually came to the place where that current job that I had was freelancing in design and I I said I am going to continue doing this. And I didn't know where I was going to go. But I was I was kind of at the end of my of my journey with with that profession. As far as freelance. Yeah. So yeah, I took a plunge and put support some money out to go to an IEA conference. I looked at my budget. I was like, Oh, I don't know if I can. And I'm really glad that I did because I got a chance to meet Susan at a conference. Do you remember what year that was? So that would be a I think 2019 Or there's a gap year with COVID. Everything.

Clay Tumey: 5:07

Yeah, I was talking to Dr. G earlier, or Heather is, but we don't remember either what year it was that some of us met. It's 2018 2019. It's, they all kind of run together and the COVID makes it even harder to remember clearly. I'm curious about something. And this has, you know, just just a nosy question. So feel free to answer or to just tell me my own business. But when you talk about leaving the profession, as a freelance artist, or that coming to an end, I think is the phrase that you use. And I'm, I know, I'm a musician. So I know about being an artist, and I know about trying to pursue an income from that. And, and there comes a point or there came a point for me, where I didn't, I no longer wanted to pursue that for, for my own reasons, and I always wonder, is there is it? Is it possible to pursue an art that is also a career, and that you have to look at as a job quote, unquote, and but it's also I mean, you're clearly an artist, like you're not just someone who does things. Well, you're an artist, you do things that are artistic, and I wonder, and again, it's just a nosy question, but is it? Is it harder? Did they really start the music? That we're just gonna roll with it? I think we can just roll with it. background track night? Um, it's a party at the Lesyk house. We didn't say that we're actually addicts. Yeah, of course. Okay. Cool. So we're partying, whatever. But the question about art and making a living from it, is it? Is it hard to do like from not not necessarily from a technical standpoint of can it be done? I mean, but like, mentally, emotionally, what's it like being an artist and trying to turn that into an income? You know, like a revenue stream?

Robin Grant: 6:51

Yeah, good question that I get that question often. And it's, uh, I wasn't always encouraged to pursue an art career, where I grew up was kind of a rural area that didn't have strong arts influence and programs. But I was drawing ever since I was a toddler. I was drawing on the walls, the basement, you get in trouble for that? Well, it was the basement. Okay. Not too, too bad. But you know, it was cute. And I think that was fine. But always art was my escape, or it was my expression, express myself, I had hard time as a kid socializing, I was bullied a lot. And so I was very introverted. I'm a Type Four. And I spend my time on my imagination. And in my creativity, and I honed some skills doing that for sure. I would say to answer your question, I had to decide decided in my life that at pursuing a few other professions, like teaching was one of the options, sort of, in certain regions, it's like, well, you could be a government worker, or a teacher or post office worker, or nothing wrong with any of those jobs or professions, but not at the expense of your own personal passion. Right. So last week, you're passionate about absolutely 100%. But that was not what I was passionate about. I wanted to design and so I was kind of the starving artist for a while, certainly starting out. Yeah, not knowing how to value myself. That's the thing, too. Yeah, it is a real thing, not knowing how to place value on yourself. So I had to have a part of me that was determined to do the thing that I loved, and grow, grow from that. And so I had several years of learning, growing, doing not making a lot of money, but being happy. Yeah, when I was with my craft,

Clay Tumey: 8:33

how much of art is influenced by not being happy, like if you if you're, if there's a lot of pain in the art that you make, do you risk losing your art? When you find some level of happiness?

Robin Grant: 8:49

I'm think I'm understanding the question. It's like, God, like if I'm, if I'm doing my art in a career, that's not or lead my passion,

Clay Tumey: 8:59

career, hobby, whatever, you know, if I'm a songwriter, and and I'm just, I'm just devastated by life. And and as a result of that, this beautiful art comes, and then I meet people who make me happy. And now I'm struggling to write a song. Like, you know what I mean? Like, whether it's as a career, or just something I do for fun, like, have you ever found and I'm not there's it's not a leading question that I'm looking for this specific answer. I'm just, it's just a curiosity that popped in my head. Like if, if you're, you know, cuz you said you're for in the, in the, in the stereotype for the four in my head a lot of times is there's a lot of darkness. There's, you know, I have a four wing too. So there's not only do I see it in others, but I sit in myself, that darkness is a comfortable place, you know, a lot of times and so if my art comes from that darkness, do I risk losing my I don't play music anymore. I stopped doing music around the time I went to prison. And I haven't really done that much since I got out of prison. And I don't really have a desire to frankly, and I I'd I've never analyzed it to this extent, but I guess there is a little part of me wondering like, Am I too happy to make good art? Is that an absurd question to even ask? So I don't know, I'm saying these words out loud. What do you think when you hear them?

Robin Grant: 10:15

Well, I think it's a really interesting question because I, what I'm hearing you saying it's like sort of art comes from pain a little bit. And that is true, it does come from pain. But from my experience, art comes, there's a life giving source that comes from making art. So I draw a lot of cartoon comic based characters that are inspired or the Enneagram. That's another sort of side passion that I have. And when I'm in that space in there, I'm drawing those and creating those. It's just an lifeforce that's flowing through me, it's like I don't sense time, there's a disconnect from a certain kind of reality. And I'm in a flow state. art making is really a flow state space. So to make a career in a flow state space that was up on that, I think we all fight or close this basically make our careers out of it, that's just being in the moment being in that creative space. So sometimes pain be some would call it certainly sublimation, it's like finding a creative outlet to get our stuff out. Right. So as we write a song, we put our heart into it, and it's amazing. And we'll go draw, or paint or something, supplement. But with that, also is there is some kind of creative force I think we all have, and we get into those flow states. So we can just sense with transitioning from one kind of reality to a creative reality that is very soul nourishing space to be. So that's the kind of creative space I love to be in. And I have pain sometimes like everyone, but I don't escape into art to manage that passion. I think it's processing pain in a different way in my life now. Before

Clay Tumey: 11:46

thanks for entertaining that with me, because it's an aside from what I want to talk to you about. But it was it's, it's, that's part of the joy of the podcast, and it probably is gonna be like a little bonus upload, like, we might not wait till the 12th to include this. So I don't know, I just I love talking to like, it's it's hard. Like, I don't see you as someone who is good at drawing, I see you as an artist. And you're and your art manifests itself in visual ways. And so it's I wish we had more hours to just sit in here and maybe nosy about that stuff. But coming back to and then maybe we'll do that down the road sometime. But coming back to where you met Susan, at the IEA conference a couple or a few years ago, we'll just leave it at that 2018 or 2019, maybe probably 20 was at the Oakland one

Robin Grant: 12:36

was the Cincinnati Cincinnati at the time. So

Clay Tumey: 12:39

that was a guy I'm not going to pretend to remember I was there. And I don't remember what year it was. So you met her? You were looking for someone you were looking to get into art, specifically with the Enneagram. What was what was the first conversation like with with Susan or with anybody in EPP of saying, Hey, I mean, I'm gonna paraphrase. But I imagine it went something like, Yo, I got skills. You need smart. I don't know why just totally change my accent there. Because you don't talk like that. But I went to Jersey for some reason, or New York or wherever. I don't know, I'm probably blaspheming all kinds of groups of people right now. But is that how it went? Or was it more like just trying to do? Did you just like, dip your toe in the water? And there's kind of ease down? And how, like, how did that go? What was the process?

Robin Grant: 13:24

It was what was really casual, and it was really unexpected. So I was literally crossing the street and I make contact with my good friend Dorothy Hatic, who's Halida Hatic Mom, who I'm good friends with for many years. And Dorothy said, Robin, come meet Susan. And they were talking about me, I think a little bit with each other. And so they kind of Susan kind of had a soft land with kind of knowing a little bit about who I am once. So we walked into the conference. And it was super, we were just walking side by side just we were like on our way to whatever event we were going to that Susan? Yeah. And she was so lovely. It just we just had like a casual, easy conversation. She said, so you know, she asked me some questions like so what do you do and what do you about and I was I was just sharing from my heart and I don't remember all the words that I said honestly, it was a kind of a brief conversation. But I said Susan, I'm just I'm really passionate about the Enneagram and I'm an artist and I want to do this I want to work I want to bring my art passion to to the Enneagram world somehow and and I would love to talk to you about what the possibilities could be with working with EPP and that was kind of the end of it. We had another brief exchange and then we parted and went on our way Yeah, and followed up later.

Clay Tumey: 14:38

So she didn't like immediately jump on it like oh, we need we're doing a workbook. We're going we need this. We need that. Did they even have the workbook at that point?

Robin Grant: 14:45

Had a series of conversations with her and Rick, and

Clay Tumey: 14:50

you're fine. It's all good. You know the drill. It's Suzanne walks in your Hey, we did your episode already. Okay, you had your time. Suzanne does this get cut out?

Robin Grant: 15:07

Suzanne's trip through the park. Yeah, yeah. Yo, I had some conversations with Rick and Susan, and they hired me and I was so thrilled. And I moved from Cincinnati to California, and started working with EPP and, you know, I, I was taking it all in. And it was all a new experience for me. I had I knew of EPP but I didn't know a lot of the context. And I'm just learning and meeting ambassadors and meeting the mission. And they had a workbook that they were working with, and I love packaging, educational content, like that's always been something that I've loved doing. I love making book covers and organizing things with color. And I've just, I just love that. So I just saw many opportunities to enhance and bring clarity and color and life to the content. And so it was just delicious. It was yummy stuff. Yeah, stick my teeth into

Clay Tumey: 16:00

that's I love your adjectives. I love it, because it is what it is exactly what it is. And I would never think that to describe it that way. But it's absolutely what it is. And you would what, so the workbook as it is now like the art that's in there. That's all you.

Robin Grant: 16:16

Yeah, it's a combination of collaboration. You know, it's there's never, it's not always one person doing something. It's always working with teams and groups. So we have circles at EPP where we come together as teams and groups and talk to each other about you know, what, what we what our ideas aren't, I submit concepts of content. Yeah. And so you know, art is a bit subjective. And so my preferences for visual representation could be different from others. So you have to have that conversation, to feel it to and sense the vibe, and I have a thick, I have an intuitive sense, heart sense, I feel a lot of things when I'm creating. And so I'm kind of in that space when I'm looking at different ways of presenting material. And so definitely just a collaboration effort to bring those pieces together.

Clay Tumey: 17:03

I want to know if there's anything that that and the art artistic side of the workbook. If there I'm nosy I just like I think of it, I translate everything to music. So I know what it's like to be in the studio with the band, and producers. And I know, I have my part and I'm a drummer, or I'm a guitar player. And this is how it should be in somebody else saying, Hey, man, it's not really that's not your try this. And I know how feisty it can be in the recording environment. And I wonder if there's any fun stories? That and I know it's you know, it's a little different at the EPP family? Like we don't, you know, we don't throw rocks at each other when we're, you know, or maybe we do? I don't know. But was there anything in that whole process, the creative process around making the workbook where it was either not smooth sailing for any point? Or like, I don't know, give us some dirt man.

Robin Grant: 17:56

You mean, you ask the best juiciest questions, and I love it. And you and I have some similarities there. Because you're asking probably from referencing and I, I did I, I you know, the Type Four is the individualists, the the artist, the person that you know, in my tech structure, I have to have to carve out some kind of a unique space for myself to feel valued, to feel valued. And that that's a intelligent strategy. And it causes us isolation sometimes, because I'm sort of set apart, I set myself apart a little bit from others. And I feel like I have to sort of have all the answers and present like a creative solution that everyone has to buy into, in order for me to feel like I'm doing my job, I guess. So there's some of those pieces, you know, that exists in my type. So with EPP working with sort of creative collaboration, I had to let go of a lot of like, if I don't get it, right, I'm not going to be unvalued yet. So if by all my ideas are not fully realized, that can be okay, so I definitely had some work to do inside of myself, where I was feeling like I got to show up and be professional and like, just like slam it out of the park kind of thing. And some of the choices that we went with were not necessarily the ones that I felt were like, over the top amazing enough, there was like a simplicity to beauty to some of those choices. And, and they work and they're perfect to it the way they are. But I did feel like I had to, like kill myself working to create these unique amazing kinds of pieces. They are already there was just a natural orchestration of my creativity when I would rest and relax and just be present to the creative process with a beautiful team of people that were also creating with me doing co creation. So there's definitely an edge creative edge. That individualist part of Type Four I didn't understand it and actually that word wasn't even part of the my understanding for for as I heard that the best of poetic or the romantic or the artist, but more you put individual lists there. I was like, Oh, I relate to that. Yeah, you know, I have to be my separate own person. That even translated to how I felt like I belonged with EPP because I remember Susan said to me one time, she said, Robin, I can't wait to say we, instead of you. Oh, yeah. Because what I would talk to him about art and design and things, I'd say, so you might want to try this. And you might do that. And I wasn't saying we can. And we are. And so when she invited me to consider that house, like, I didn't even realize that I did that.

Clay Tumey: 20:23

And it's this subtle nuance. It's just a tiny little adjustment of language. And, and, and it matters. And we don't always even realize it. We almost never realized until somebody points it out,

Robin Grant: 20:36

and so lovingly, and so sweetly, and so Invitational and so I went away from that conversation, and I sat with myself and I go, I've done that my whole life, and not really realized how I didn't allow myself to belong. I was afraid maybe I don't know all the reasons why I just felt uncomfortable. Being subsumed in a group, I always felt like I had to, maybe it was fear of intimacy with with folks like I wanted some kind of escape hatch to kind of like, get too close, but not too close. And what paradoxically happens is, when I allow myself to belong, it brings out more of my uniqueness, my creativity, my personal expression, because I have this connection with all kinds of love and support and care. And that's one of the things I can say about EPP is there's a tremendous amount of support and love, that allowed my gifts to really thrive. And when I was isolated more in my creative, there was always the sense of Will they accept what I bring in? Is it good enough, but I was always like, scared, when I would create this might be like a musician? Will they like my song? Will my music be good enough? And what will the feedback be? And what will that say about my skills or talents and so on. And it's so not that way, working with this amazing group of humans who appreciate so much and have so much love. And support it's a dream come true to to be in this space, because I can thrive.

Clay Tumey: 21:57

I wish I was exposed to that kind of stuff a lot earlier, because a lot of what what a lot of people don't know is, is I, as a musician, I play several instruments. And as a teenager, I was already recording, you know, full songs by myself with no help from anybody, because I could play all the instruments that I needed. And there was always like, you know, all the the weird, and I say weird, because it's just strange to me that people would be so fascinated by it. It's almost like saying, you know, you can draw, and you can paint. And people are like, Oh my God, that's crazy. And to you, it's just like, it's just art, you know, you could, you could probably smear paint on your elbows and make art with it. That's because you're that's just that I just, I think that's probably close to accurate, more so than inaccurate. So with music, it's the same but but to take it a step farther, you know, to go deeper. I learned all the instruments, because I didn't have that ability to work with other people. And so I didn't have a band. I didn't have other I didn't, I didn't have a drummer. So I learned drums, I didn't have a bass player. So I learned bass, I didn't have a guitar player. So I learned guitar, I didn't have a singer. So I learned how to record vocals in a way that would mask the fact that I can't really sing that well. Or at least that's what I thought, you know. So I, instead of learning how to deal with people, all the things that you just talked about with EPP and all the healthy aspects of everything that how we do things, how we do things. I, I didn't have that. I was a teenager. So whatever. You know, I cut myself a little slack there. But even as an adult is tricky, man. It's tricky, especially with creative stuff. And even all the way up to and including the podcast stuff like I I said, I have said very clearly from day one, at least, I hope it's clear that the only reason that this happens is you know, the piece that you you were the like the final piece of the puzzle that makes the podcast happen. Because I've always known how to talk. Like I can tell, I can do this all day. And then like the next step, you know, somebody else can do that. But there was a point where, you know, I didn't want to do certain things to have a podcast possible. I just didn't want to do them. And, you know, Rick does his part. Elita does her part, you do your part, I do my part. And now it's like, it's it's a creative process. And there's some technical aspects involved and all that stuff. But I hear what you describe with all the workbook and the collaborations that are involved there is actually very similar to what we do, I think with the podcast, and for me, and I know I've thrown like I've sprinkled in some little thank you Robins here and there. But I promise I am not exaggerating at all. When I say that if you weren't here doing your part, it would not happen. It just wouldn't because I don't want to do you know from a technical standpoint, I can do things like I can't, I don't want to and I don't like to and I want to do my piece and then hand it off to a teammate and then they do their piece. And it's not enough that they can do their piece. I need to fully trust and respect them for For all that they are able to do. And so, again, I'll say that without you being a link in our chain, it just wouldn't happen. And it's with 0% exaggeration that I say that. And so to follow that with a question for the listener, what the hell do you do? What do you do once I give it to you just walk us through that process?

Robin Grant: 25:22

There's so sweetly were words to it. I'll follow up with that answers that question by saying that just to highlight what are the things that you shared was about the vulnerability piece. And when we're in a safe, trusted community, and what we're building, EPP is compassionate community, with compassion and care, we all get to be interdependent with one another with all of our gifts. So because I allow myself to belong in new clay, allow yourself to belong and all of us allow ourselves to belong, we lock into the interconnectedness of an organism, that is this community that allows all of our gifts to thrive. And that's really an amazing miracle that happens. So we're not there's cop competing to try to be seen or witness because we all want to be loved. We all want our gifts to be celebrated. And we want as little children, we would just want to shine with our authentic selves, and be seen and validated and loved. So that we can be the expression of what we're designed to be. And then life happens and we get pot stuff piled on top of us. And then we you know, we don't, we don't shine or don't give ourselves the ability to shine or can't find a space to do that. So there's a real healing work in EPP that is multifaceted, multi dimensional, and your essential part, I'm an essential part, everyone's an essential part. And that's what makes this magic, beautiful and happening. And I can't do what I do without a clay and I clay can't do it. He does without a Halida and Lita can't do what she does without a Susan. And it goes on and it goes on. It's just beautiful. And

Clay Tumey: 26:47

there's a Robin in there. There's a Robin in there. Thank you for helping me belong there. Yeah. So

Robin Grant: 26:52

that is that's my work to is to just Yeah, Robin, it's okay to say that you're a part of something, and you're there, and that you matter. And those are not always easy words, just

Clay Tumey: 27:01

an integral part part. Thank you. necessary part.

Robin Grant: 27:05

And so to answer your question, I have a kind of a. So education wise, I have a degree in Multimedia communications. And then I have a master's degree in instructional and curriculum design. So I'm an artist that has sort of interested in in like, all kinds of ways to communicate, I love music, I play piano. I sing in the shower.

Clay Tumey: 27:27

I'm pointing at the panel behind me. I didn't know I didn't know that you were that you played the

Robin Grant: 27:31

tickle the keys for Yeah, I think, and you know, I've always love. You know, I'm a sensitive person. So there's something about music, art and creativity that really makes my heart sing. And so, you know, when I was thinking about the podcast, and I was thinking what would be like a cool, like music that would be like, feels like play and it feels like this podcast that I went through a lot of tracks, just looking at filling different things and waiting for the feeling to come waiting for like what feels right. And then I heard it, I was like, that's the track like this one. And every time I hear that music, I'm like, I get so like, happy made. Like, I'm just like ready to rock like, what is what's gonna happen in this podcast, boom, boom, boom, you know, and it's those kinds of those are gifts, you know, when when I can be part of making something happen. So I do film editing, I help with the some music design for, for this podcast, for example, in editing, sometimes on the podcast, there are things that I do with, like general planning and creating stuff at EPP we have lots of working circles with lots of projects. So I might be involved in creating an E blast one day and doing some design for that. And then sometimes there's curriculum design that has to has to happen. And I need to make diagrams and charts and things. And sometimes those goes go into videos. And then sometimes we're doing a special presentation to celebrate an ambassador. And so I might be doing a video to help support that in putting graphics in that. And so it really there's a wide range of projects that come across my desk, and we are growing quickly. And more people are being added to help do design. And there are some really wonderful people that are coming our way to support and I'm really thrilled to be part of helping us grow in that way. And so it's really exciting to be part of a thriving, vibrant. Yeah, passionate organization.

Clay Tumey: 29:23

It's kind of neat. It's kind of cool. You have a greater I feel like you have a greater command of language when it comes to describing things like I like I'm gonna steal your word delicious. And it's not your word, but you haven't like claimed it. But I'm like, I'm gonna start trying to use that and I'm looking for places to use things like that like what give me like five adjectives that I could just add to my like, like my lexicon or whatever you want to call it. My palette. My my language palette like delicious is definitely going to be one. What's What are like for more good adjectives that I could use to describe

Robin Grant: 29:58

I guess I could get into my fields like With this art overall, you know, food is interesting, right? Because it's like that. It's I go to food because it's like a consumption thing, just this part of like, absorbing and connecting to creative process. So, you know, like yummy or delicious is a natural GOING TO GOD Gosh, Clay What can I say? How does art make me feel? Maybe that's easier. Okay, place I can find those adjectives. It's enlivening it's

Clay Tumey: 30:34

I put you on the spot. I feel like I succeeded. I

Robin Grant: 30:37

can edit. I can edit the long pauses between Robbins searching

Clay Tumey: 30:44

Jeopardy music in here, dude, it? Did it do. Yeah. So we can we can back burner and continue on on the next episode.

Robin Grant: 30:54

Well, okay, so you're also an artist. So you have adjectives, too. So it's like, how does music make you feel? Like what happens inside of you when you are like, yeah, in that space?

Clay Tumey: 31:04

When When I hear the music for the podcast, I get I feel electric for I feel electrified. I feel like not that's not the right word. I feel like I'm not shocked in a sense of like, surprised. But I feel like clear didn't plugged in. Yeah, like, like the defibrillator differently. Like it's not a sudden, or a flip of a switch. Or it's like, it's like, it's like, like, I feel that intensity. Yeah, it's electric, but severe and immediate. And I feel with other and I like other other other other types of music make me feel like emotional to degree that I can't always describe. And a lot of times, that's my cheat sheet. That's my, that's my cheat. To get out of using fancy words is just saying, this affects me to a degree that I'm not able to articulate. And like it sounds fancy to say it that way. But in reality, I'm saying, I don't know how the hell to tell you what I'm feeling right now. And that's what that's how, that's how strong it is. So the you know, I, I want to make sure that we're good on time. I told you like, 30 ish minutes, you've probably heard me give this speech to people before. Like, we're we're there. I don't know if you can see the stopwatch here. We're 31 minutes. Are you good? Yeah, man. We I want to, I want to ask you, I want to ask you about something else. And then I'm still crossing my fingers that we can get Dr. GFL? Yeah. If she was sitting on the couch, she'd be like, she's covered. Yeah. But with something and it's, it's, it's the last thing that you mentioned and what you do with EPP, you mentioned, you're also a guide. And I want to know, first of all, what does that mean, to you? The last two episodes have been about guides. So there's a strong probability that people already know what a guide is. But sometimes people start on the most recent episode. So maybe we have somebody who's brand new, totally possible. So a I want to know, what is a guide? And B, why do you care? Enough? It's not fun. Working in prison, working with the incarcerated, working with people who have that degree of shit, and their history in their personal life and their past that amount of trauma that amount of, of just junk and it's it's it is it, I will say it's rewarding, I can get down with that. I don't think fun is a word that I would use is I don't I don't even know if it's enjoyable. I can't speak for anybody else. But it's, it's just not something it's not like you think, you know, like if you said, Hey, you want to go to the theme park and ride some roller coasters. I mean, like, that sounds fun. You want to do this other thing like, but with this population, with this subject matter? Why in the world, do you? Why are you subjecting yourself to this? You know, and why do you want to be a guide? Why do you care?

Robin Grant: 33:58

It's a really good question. It's a great invitation. Guides are someone who goes in to jails and prisons and or other spaces and guide people in an invitation to learn the Enneagram and come home to themselves. It's a guided guiding process. And so we are there to support people on their journey. They're guiding them on their journey. Why am I guide and you know, it's almost like there's difficult sometimes for me to put into words, why am I guide because I, when I was very touched by what the project is doing, and my experience of watching people on the inside, have transformative experience. I said, I want what they have going on. And I've been studying the Enneagram that there was just something compelling about what people were experiencing that I was drawn to. And when I said I wanted to become a guide, I couldn't believe the words coming out of my mouth as they were coming out of my mouth. You know, like, what did you just invite yourself into? What did you just say? And I mean, I went in with my shaking in my boots, actually to do it, something inside all that I could say to clays or something inside that was pulling me towards this, there was something in this, you know, we say we're guiding them there. They're our teachers, the guy, the ambassador's are the ones and the people inside are the ones that are are the teachers, the wise wisdom, keepers of humanity, it's like the secret wisdom keepers are hidden away in these places to set humanity free. That's how I see it. So it's a privilege for me to be part of this process to be part of their lives in any way. Because what they're experiencing is a direct impact on my own transformation, journey myself. So you could say maybe selfish reasons, a little bit in that space, too, right. But I mean, that's really the substance of what's happening. And that's what's really profound for me, and it's I'm very touched, you know, we had a dinner tonight and listening to the ambassador share their experience of what's touched them. I mean, it's heart opening, it's, it breaks open. So many layers that I have in my own life, that I hide myself, protect myself, afraid for people to really see who I am. And witness is human beings with so much vulnerability and so much work and so much heart. I mean, it just peels blows back all of the layers that I have in my life, and inspires me to grow and deepen my own journey and path. So that's why Yeah, it's, it's, it's deep heart, heart work. And it's so worth it. And I mean, I will be honest with you, going in and having jail prison door slammed behind you in any level, there is a certain amount of fear and trepidation one has, and then

Clay Tumey: 36:50

kind of a primal thing almost there is doesn't feel right.

Robin Grant: 36:53

It's like, why are you doing this? And then you Hill? Yeah. Right. But did you bump your head this morning, you know, but then you move into the space, and you're sitting in the space with human beings who are just like, no different from anyone else wanting to be wanting to know what why we do what we do. I want to know the question to that answer to that question myself. And all of a sudden, we're just human beings being with one another, in a compassionate, safe space to grow together. And it's beautiful. And it's amazing. And I'm really grateful to be part.

Clay Tumey: 37:33

We're grateful to have you. I'm grateful that people like you exist in the world, because I don't you know, and I touched on this a little bit last episode. I don't, I'm not a guide. And I don't I don't think that I will be a beginner. Because I don't have you know, I've been to prison. I've been locked up. You know, we all know that. Or, I hope we do at this point. I've talked about it enough. I feel like I'm comfortable with going into prison. There are certain things about being a guide that I don't think I've I don't think I've got it, you know, at least to get I'll cut myself some slack and say, I don't have it yet. It's it's hard to, you know, like this here in the door slam, you know, I could deal with that. And all the other things about being on the inside, and I can deal with the pain, I'm comfortable with the conversations that are hard. I really struggle with. And I think it was Suzanna that I was talking about this with before I struggle with seeing people rather than seeing the crime. So using myself as a as a as an example. I struggled to see clay for who he is. But it's really easy to see him as a criminal who's who robbed banks who stole money from his mom, it's easy to see the crimes, it's easy to see the things that actions, because it's right in front of me. It's hard to see clay as a as a as a as a small child who grew up into this thing that he didn't want to be. It's hard to see, you know, Vic, as the small child who had these things happen in his life that weren't his fault. It's easy to see, oh, you stole that, oh, you robbed this people? Oh, you saw those drugs. It's easy to see that and be mad at him and judge him for that. It's hard to see past that and into the childhood and know, like this. He didn't have a fair chance. And so I wonder if that if that was if that was something that just came naturally for you? Or is it something that you had to consider at some point and get over it? Or has it never even been a thought until until it's presented? Like this and in you know, in this conversation that Where were you with that? That kind of stuff?

Robin Grant: 39:48

Yeah. I have to pause to think about you know, I haven't had the experience yet where someone has told me something that was Something that I couldn't process. And I know that some have had that experience. I'm deciding if I'm going to go down a certain road or not to talk about

Clay Tumey: 40:11

something I'm riding with you

Robin Grant: 40:17

want to be relevant? I can always cut this later. So maybe, hmm, should I go there? So I'll say this in my history. I was our family was part of we were we had a home invasion. In our family, we were held victimized, yes. And so it was a trauma that we're sure about. And I really don't believe sharing it. Now, I don't usually share I don't share it. I think there's a healing in it for me, to be able to see the humanity in this way. And for all of us, when we know that the choices people make are not because people are evil, inherently, that people are subjected to painful, difficult over overwhelming circumstances that lead to desperate choices. And that has to be able to contextualize and see how EPP helps to support a peep a person's developmental process, how they, how we all develop, and how we all create our realities based on opportunities are no opportunities, or limited opportunities or abuse or trauma traumatization that lead to these desperate kinds of acts, which come from extreme distortions from a very understandable place when you know what's going on. And then you put the puzzle pieces together to see what makes a human being where they are, at any level, allows you to have space to forgive, to heal, to put restore one's own heart and soul spaces, right, we've all had our own, we all have our own stories, how where we are where we are, I had lots of privileged opportunities that many people don't have. And then I also challenges that I have to heal myself from in my life today as an adult. So it's a combination, that we're all supporting each other, to why we need compassionate spaces like EPP to define our a safe space to heal. And it's so interesting that it's, you know, people that are both unlikely places, and people are the actual puzzle pieces that are missing to put ourselves back together, right? Like who could like think that that's where you go for like to do it or work, right? And that's like, you can't even you can't write this stuff. It just happens when we're, our hearts are opening. We're searching.

Clay Tumey: 43:17

I'm googling. I'm giggling because I know, I just know how bizarre it like, you know, go into prison to find myself is just it's like a weird phrase that I say, but it's just it's accurate for me. And everybody has that equivalent. I think not everybody a lot of people have that equivalent for them. And finding that that piece is it's, it's a it's a big deal. I want to I'm gonna leave you with the last word. I think you probably you probably know the drill by now with how I how I end the we might 4040. I mean, this was totally spur of the moment. I see you're picking up the stopwatch and so yeah, 42 minutes and then and then if you cut something out that will probably be less than that. But what if I just send it straight to recognize? Scandal? Yes. This was totally spur of the moment. We are at the holistic household. We had an event this evening, at their house with about 80 I don't know ish people that don't know what the headcount was. That's the number that I heard. And after that, we came inside and we're just shooting the shit. And and I asked you earlier, are you down to chat? And you said yes. So this was without any preparation on your part or any time to really think about what you were gonna say or talk about. And I know that's not always easy. And it's not always fun, and especially for our withdrawn types. It's not always something that we look forward to. So I'd be up so I, I do I want to express gratitude and say that I it's a big deal to me that you sat down with me for a little bit. I enjoy talking to you. I think you're quite an interesting person. And I just I hear when you are about to talk, I'm ready to listen, that's, you're in that category for me. So thank you for sitting in front of a mic and letting me hear you talk. For a little bit, I want to give you the last word and ask if, if there's anything that you be something we talked about, or something we did not talk about anything that you would like to, you have the listeners here, I'm going to shut up from here on out. And as much time as you want as many words as you want to say anything that's on your heart.

Robin Grant: 45:21

Wow, well, I want to say thank you for inviting me to share, I really count as a privilege, and you're somebody I look up to, and I appreciate, and I'm a listener when you speak. So understand that. Also, what you are doing with the podcast, I know, is a beautiful contribution. And it's a big deal. And I'm super excited for you to be doing this work. And I support you 100,000,000%. And to say, what would I say at the end of this other than so much gratitude for you, gratitude towards a group of human beings and Susan being person who's pioneered a beautiful, amazing, world changing vision, that I have gratitude for a community of like minded like hearted, compassionate humans that I get to connect to every day, and who was graciously reaching out their arms to the worlds to say welcome, belong. And let's do this. Let's change the world. Let's bring compassion, kindness and care, and help build the broken. I want to be part of that. I am part of that. And I'm excited.

Clay Tumey: 46:50

Thanks for sitting down. I know, it's probably a little like anxiety inducing to just sit on a mic and talk when it's, you know, literally just thrown in your lap, like 30 minutes ago.

Heather: 47:02

I don't know which ones. Which ones better not knowing that it was coming or knowing but we're here, man ready.

Clay Tumey: 47:09

So we all that could be the part of the episode that that introduces where we're going, or Robin may just start it like here. So I don't introduce anybody. I'll let people introduce themselves that way. I don't say too much or too little. So you tell me who you are. And whatever is relevant and whatever you're allowed to say.

Heather: 47:31

Start with the biggest existential question of who are you? Yeah, just easy questions.

Clay Tumey: 47:36

Why are we here?

Heather: 47:37

Why are we why are you and why are you here?

Clay Tumey: 47:40

Why is our planet a sphere? Oh, God instead of? Okay, that Mike wants to be your friend. Okay. Even when you're leaning back, you can just pull it up. That's cool. You'll get used to it, I promise. Yeah, right there. Okay. It's great. Your voice sounds great. It's all good.

Heather: 48:02

Me sit here, I need to go down in in so that we get a real answer. Well, Clay, first, I want to say thank you for inviting me to sit here with you. That's the first thing on my mind and heart. You said that you invite people that are interesting, and that care about the incarcerated. And thank you for the compliment of interesting, the part I can absolutely validate is the second part, which is a care about the incarcerated. And I think we're all incarcerated in some way. But the people that live inside jails and prisons and detention facilities and youth authorities and group homes, and foster homes and just families where the walls are closing in and the pains are palpable and great. They're in a different kind of excruciating pain. And I care about all of those people very much. That is one aspect of who I am very much so deep in my heart. And I am committed to trying to bring love and care and joy inside those walls, so that people can see who they really are, who were they always meant to be and their greatest essence and their own superpowers and what's right about them. So, that's a big part of who I am. And a big part of what I do.

Clay Tumey: 49:51

I love that you and I've heard others use this but I love that you use the word superpowers and the gifts that we have, you know anybody Who knows much about the Enneagram? You know, there's each type, like, there's no one type that has nothing, you know, from the other types, and there's no, there's no type that is that lays claim to one thing that nobody else can do. But I do think that we have, I know that we have certain gifts, that we just were better. And that's not the right word I'll accept that I'm using better is not the word. But you know, as as, as a five, there are things that I can make clear that the next person might not be able to, to that extent. And I feel like a lot of times it is a bit of a superpower. I like I like that. I like that idea that that we all have. And we all have a superpower. So can we. And like I said, I'm not I don't introduce anybody. We can go this whole time without saying a name. Is there a name that we can give the people? Or should we just go in code? And I'm down with?

Heather: 50:59

I'm not trying to speak in code. Which people are we talking about that you want named? Do you have a name? Oh, I have a name? Yes. My name is Dr. Heather Greenwald. Okay. And I am a chief of mental health in a maximum security prison.

Clay Tumey: 51:17

So what's what's fascinating to me. And there's, there's so much there's so many directions that we can go just based on the snippet that you gave us to start with. But the number one place that I want to go is when I've been locked up, you know that and I think a lot of the listeners know that. I know what it looks like on the inside. I know the kind of people that I encountered when I was locked up. I know the kind of people who worked there where I where I was, I didn't I never met you. I never met people like you. I didn't encounter people like you. I think you're a bit of a unicorn with how much you know, to hear the emotion and what you talk about at the vet just off the RIP, we're there. And then to find out a few minutes later, holy shit, you work. You work at a correctional facility? Like this is what you do. I don't think people expect that. So I don't I just don't. And it's not normal. It's not typical. It's not whatever the right word is. It's it's, it's it's unicorn like, so how what came first? The and I use all I use very informal terms, because I didn't get the education that I should have. Like, what what came first, the give a shit or the the job? Like how did you find yourself in a position to where you're capable, you're educated. You're, you're, you're the person that they need. But also you care? Like it matters? Clearly. Do you

Heather: 52:46

matter so much? Well, first, I want to speak to the premise of that statement. And that, thankfully, I'm fortunate enough to know other people like me, that work in prison.

Clay Tumey: 52:59

Thank you for clarifying that.

Heather: 53:01

But that wasn't your experience. So it wasn't not Not, not clarifying your experience, just mine. And I think, you know, like, does fine, like. And so I do find that there are people who care so much within prison, and are trying to bring I don't want to just say rehabilitation, I want to say like, trying to bring about the person's best essence that they were always meant to be. And there are people committed to that within many of my staff are, and I'm so fortunate to work with a team of people that really care. And many of my colleagues are so I want to say that. Thankfully,

Clay Tumey: 53:52

it's more unicorns. There's a whole herd

Heather: 53:58

of unicorns there through the sky. There are I'm glad to tell you that. But thank you for the compliment. I take that in and I I do feel seen that you can tell how much I care. And I'm glad that I'm not alone in that. There's programs like Enneagram Prison Project, although I think it's special as well. And we've talked about that. But there are other programs and other volunteers that come in that come in with this heart as well, in addition to the staff. So I'll say that first. Which came first was your question. The

Clay Tumey: 54:38

you're such a pro, he said so much. And then you still remember the question, like this is the part where you go to find what I

Heather: 54:45

was saying. Maybe that's a psychologist part, right? Yeah. tracking multiple threads.

Clay Tumey: 54:50

So I'm interrupting to say that was expertly done, and I appreciate it because I kind of forgot what I asked.

Heather: 54:55

Well, thank you and I am I'm still on your question. So So which came first? I think the care is what is one of the things that did bring me inside prison and keeping the care despite the fact that we're all doing time together, and prison is hard for staff, and the people that live there, and in different ways, of course, keeping the care is also a piece of it. So I give a care. I keep a care. Yeah. And I think that probably did come first. And it's maintained through working on it, and trying to stay present to myself and keep my humaneness. And keep bringing about humaneness in every connection from a, from a conference call to a committee meeting to a case conference to talking to a human that lives there. Or works there.

Clay Tumey: 55:57

Yeah. The I know your time. I don't know if you've said your type yet.

Heather: 56:03

Have you? Is it are we think I just said it a second ago, but I'm just I'm so happy to say that. Yeah, go? I'm a seven with an eight wing one to one.

Clay Tumey: 56:13

And what does that mean to somebody who might not know? Hmm.

Heather: 56:18

Okay, so I'm efficient in a certain habit of being and my habit of being the, I guess the, the essence of it would be, when we're at our, when I met my greatest I'm, I'm living joy, spontaneously with immediacy. But with still great connection to all that is on the outside of me and the inside of me and with others, and this universe. So I can really appreciate the beauty and the joy and the love in this universe. That's kind of my superpower. superpower that's my superpower. And I think is a one to one. You know, relationship is so important to me. And so I think that gives my my joy, not just kind of fluttering flitting around the world, which is also a desire of mine is to just travel and have adventure. That's quite seven. But I'm so rooted to people and my tribe. I care about them so much. That would always bring me home. So that's the one the one piece and the eight wing gets things done. Yeah. Yeah.

Clay Tumey: 57:39

I saw you outside earlier. Yeah. Yeah, we're at the elastic property. That won't be the same in Anchorage, the house anymore, because it's like a bunch of land too. And we had we had an event, hopefully, future village, hopefully. Yeah, I think, I think it's likely. And we had tables, and we had a bunch of guests, several dozen guests, maybe 80 ish, upwards towards 100. So beautiful food, you know, the whole nine yards, and there were storms rolling in, the weather was getting unfriendly, and a lot of people disappeared to the safety of the home. Ie me. And you didn't you were out there making things happen. And that's is that the end by making things happen? You were helping clean up? Yeah. Are you leading the charge? Or were you just like waiting for orders?

Heather: 58:29

No, you know, you don't, you don't have to lead the charge here. Because I think the group acts as an organism of change. And you could see that in the cleanup efforts. I don't know if you were out there long enough to see the the full view of it, but the organism does the change. And no one gives anybody orders. Yes. What they call it to organization, and you could see it in the way they in the way we work. No one gave anybody orders,

Clay Tumey: 59:02

and would just say things that needs to be done. And they do it. That's right. Yeah.

Heather: 59:05

And so no, I just saw what was happening. And I have hands started working. Do you?

Clay Tumey: 59:14

Do you think that it's easier for you, as a seven with an eight wing to get involved and just your hands work? So you're going to put them to work? Do you think it's easier for your for your particular type structure? Have you wanted to describe that to do that, whereas someone like a more withdrawn type or someone who, who, who it helps them to give not give orders because that's not the right word. But like for me, for example, Type Five, I'm more comfortable sitting back. Not being an introvert. I don't think that's accurate because I don't feel introverted. I feel like my energy is looking for the appropriate place to be inserted. And so if I see just to use that example, if I see things are happening And there is a need, you know, elsewhere, or even if I'm just looking after myself, I was uncomfortable when I was cold. I knew I needed to sit down and have some conversations on mic. So I wanted to feel better before I did that. So maybe there's some selfish aspects in there. And then also, I kind of sometimes, you know, just don't like doing stuff. So maybe I'm lazy, I don't know, it's part of, it's part of that. And I'm just trying to paint the picture for you know, to so there's an actual question to be answered, answered. And that question is, like, Is it easier for a seven with an eight wing to help that effort? And as a five with a four wing? Am I at a disadvantage when it comes to being a part of something like that? How does that all work with relation to the Enneagram and types? And when things need to be done? And, you know, how, how does all that what's what's in your head about all that?

Heather: 1:00:54

Well, it would be harder for me not to do something than to do it. My, my growth edge is looking at when not to act, when to be silent, when not to go forward. Gotcha. So my natural inclination is to be up and out. And to be active, and to connect and push forward. And so it would be my my work is, when should I not do that? Right, not?

Clay Tumey: 1:01:34

Oh, the opposite of mine. Exactly. Yeah.

Heather: 1:01:36

Not like, oh, it was hard to go pick up tables for me. I didn't even think about should I go pick up the table? Or tables? It was it I would have had to think like, well, maybe I shouldn't do this. Maybe there's something else I need to be doing. So now my my natural inclination is the exact opposite. All right, then that and we need all the types.

Clay Tumey: 1:01:57

Yeah, yeah. Well, what do you need my Type Four then if you're in that effort, specifically, not just in the world, but like, when it's time like there's a lot of shit to pick up. And, and, and all the sevens and eights and all that, you know, they're out there doing their thing. And they're looking around going where the hell's my five? Where the hell's my four? Where the hell's my this where, though? Like, how, how am I fitting into that puzzle? In particular,

Heather: 1:02:21

you see the mic in front of you? Yeah, that's what you're doing. Okay. But that's not cleaning up tables, though. We didn't need you to clean up the table. Okay, fair enough. I needed you to do a podcast. Yeah, that from what I hear, is making people really think and really feel and really connect. So you were using your superpower the way

Clay Tumey: 1:02:41

you were needed? I'm good to be nosy and asking questions.

Heather: 1:02:45

Well, I mean, you can call it you can call it that. And I think that trivializes the compliment I'm giving you but I think you were doing what you needed to be doing and taking care of you. So that you can then put this out in the world was maybe maybe a good thing to do. I'm sure you could challenge yourself to carry a table if ever need I could

Clay Tumey: 1:03:07

Yeah. Or if I was hiding from a conversation that I didn't want to have to but and I and I appreciate being called out on me on how I respond to that. Because it's it's hard sometimes to just say thank you. I'll admit that it's cuz you're giving me a compliment there. You want to come back? We could do it again. We can. Yeah, let's get it's got to delete that. Like it never happened. But Robin won't let that he'll he'll leave it in there. He's not gonna delete it. So what's my job out there? What's my role? What am I doing? We're going back to the thing. Oh, no, I

Heather: 1:03:34

was just gonna let you take the compliment. Go ahead. Thank you. I fully expect Robin. Hey, will you go ahead and just take in the compliment.

Clay Tumey: 1:03:43

It feels good. Thank you. It does, it's it's nice to have something that feels so natural to me. And very little effort like this. I enjoy this so much. This is so energizing. And it's like, it's like sitting down and having a good meal. I have no effort in eating something that I like. And

Heather: 1:04:05

no effort there for me. It just makes me happy.

Clay Tumey: 1:04:07

Yeah. So that's what this is. But like for my brain,

Heather: 1:04:12

I totally so we have a chord there.

Clay Tumey: 1:04:14

Yeah, and, and for those who might not know sevens, or it's in the head triad, as well. So we do share a lot there.

Heather: 1:04:23

Can I also tell you something else, but I need your Type Four? Sure. So the seven as I grow and deepen and go down and in my growth arrow is toward the five as you know. And so as I grow up, I'm becoming more like your best part. And I love my five arrow and I think I've I've had a lot of five my whole life. I think it helped me, you know, through graduate school and the learning process. I'm very Very head centered, and I've had to grow into my body and grow into the access to my heart. Because the head part, like we've talked about what comes easiest that I live, I could live in my head without remembering I even have a body. Yeah, I feel that. And I'm very grateful to have this body and have a healthy body. And I want to be grateful and connected to my body. But I can really forget that I have one. Because I can live up here so beautifully. And mentalize every feeling I think I've felt, but I haven't.

Clay Tumey: 1:05:33

And for me, sometimes it's just straight up neglect to my body like I don't, who needs sleep, I can stay up and think I've actually, before I knew the Enneagram I actually used that was one of my favorite things to say it's like, who asleep is for people who don't have imaginations?

Heather: 1:05:46

Or don't read? Yeah.

Clay Tumey: 1:05:48

You know, like, who said, Yeah, run out of things to think about, or whatever. I have more I want to talk to you about but I told you 20, I just want to check in and fit. We're 22 minutes in. And I want to see like how you feel if we're good to like,

Heather: 1:06:02

talk and listen to you forever. Okay, cool.

Clay Tumey: 1:06:05

Well, Forever is a possibility. I have a lot of space on my computer. So I Are we you feel good. I

Heather: 1:06:14

feel fine. This is fun. I enjoy as you're speaking with you. It really is.

Clay Tumey: 1:06:19

Likewise, it's quite a pleasure speaking with you as well. I have so many things I want to talk about one, I want to go back to one of the first things, it's actually just a little phrase that you mentioned earlier in your first comment, and talking about all the different populations that are relevant, and that are that matter to the incarcerated the foster care system. All that. And you mentioned youth, and specifically youth who are and I don't know the phrase in California, but in Texas, it's it's basically prison for kids. It's the T yc. The Texas youth, they probably changed it recently, actually, I don't know the name now. But juvenile kids go and do things that are against the law. And then they're they're in they're in. And it's nothing that we've talked about on the podcast yet. And it's something that bothers me deeply. And it's just never come up. So I'm wondering if I don't know if I want to talk about that. And I want to talk about why it's so disturbing to me the idea of incarcerating children, even though they've committed crimes. I'm wondering what you might have to say, to somebody like me, who thinks that it's wrong, but I also acknowledge that crime is like something that we have, we can't just ignore if if a 14 year old shoots and kill someone. Like you can't just say, okay, don't do that. But I also think that the place we send that 14 year old is not good. I don't think it's healthy. I don't think that life is gonna be bad for them from from that point forward is how I feel about it. So what do you what do you what do you know about that? World about that population? In terms of, you know, anything that you could shine light on for someone like me who I didn't go to prison? I was an adult. I wasn't even a young adult. I was already in my late 20s. Which in prison? That's not It's not young. I was like already almost old school at that point, rolling up on 30. So I don't know, I've only spoken in juveniles. I've never known anybody who was locked up. What? What is it about our youth corrections? That is right, what is that's wrong? Like, how can we do better? What can we be aware of? Like, we're there's a lot of ignorance out here in the free world around the whole topic. And I feel like you know, a lot that you can share on that.

Heather: 1:08:45

There was a lot there to unpack. Yeah. What I, I guess what I'd like to say to that is what what do you find? helps people grow?

Clay Tumey: 1:09:05

I, I am, I will say that I'm not comfortable with the general what helps people and I can say what the specific what helps me. And I was just talking about this earlier, is for me, the question that they asked me was, would this what I've been, what it helped helped me if I learned the Enneagram as a teenager. And and so the answer to that question is kind of the same as the answer to this question. And to me, the thing that would have helped me grow was that if someone saw me instead of my actions, and I never struggled academically, I was not a problem. Charles when it came to teaching me how to do things. I learned very easily and very quickly, to the extent that I was bored and I only cared about making life interesting. And as a child that came out as I didn't follow the rules, because I wanted to test the rules I wanted to, I wanted to, you know, the grown adults in my classroom who we called teachers, I wanted to test them, instead of them testing me. And so I never felt like they ever saw me as that. I felt like I was just a problem, child, stop talking, do your work, all these things. That didn't work with me, punishment didn't work with me, go into the principal's office to get paddled didn't work for me, I was immune to all that. As far as actually growing, what would have really helped me to grow as a child, this is the same. Now as a 42 year old man. When people see me for who I am, instead of for what I do, that helps me first of all, connect with him. And then I immediately care about them, because I feel that there's a mutual care about me. And, and I don't know why that matters, I just know that it does. And so what helps me to grow is when people stop shitting on me for the bad things that I've done. And when they just say, hey, Clay, actually dot dot dot, and then they talk about what they see in me. So at the point where that happened in prison, that's where things started to make a little more sense, because, you know, learning, meaning Susan learning the Enneagram, also also processes that we're not related to the Enneagram. But just similar things of people seeing me instead of what I've done, that, flip the switch, and I realized, like, Hey, I am a person who has a thing, not not a thing that is happening in the world, or whatever. So I guess the short answer is what helps me grow is when someone sees me, me not being a bank robber, not being absent father not being problem, child, it could be good things too, I don't like to be seen. As a musician, sometimes I don't want to be seen as a funny person, sometimes or, or an athlete, or a podcaster, or a speaker or whatever. Like, it's fun sometimes to just be seen for who I am. And everybody see something different. Like you might see something that's not seen by other people. And it matters to me, and it makes me feel like I matter to them. And then they give a shit is engaged, and I and then I seek the way, they are one of the ways that I can grow. And a lot of times that comes out in a question like what? If you see this? You know, how can I be? If it's good? How can it be more that if it's bad, or not good? Have you want to phrase that? How can I shed that? How can I grow into something? And I don't pretend to have the answers? And if I think you have the answers, and I feel like you care, I'm gonna ask you, like, helpful help come down for the conversation. So it's a lot of words to just say, I just want people to see me, I just want to be seen as a person rather than person who does things or a dot, dot dot with an ER on the end of it, you know, because I do whatever. So that's what that's that's that's how I feel like I would I that's how that's what growth? That's how I feel. With that question. I don't know. What do you think? What do you what do you think? Because I'm, I'm in this now I'm in the analyzing phase of like, of everything about the question because I can tell you clearly, for years, there was no growth. There was just, I'm doing live, how I want to do it. I've you know, I get my problem, don't care. And, you know, that changed when I became a father. And then it was a tailspin trying to figure out how to not do it. I didn't know how. So I don't know. There's a few years of struggling to be seen, not even knowing that I wanted to be seen. And when that started to happen, the good started to happen. And I felt like I felt like there was a lot of growth has been and hopefully will be continuing in the future. So I don't know what what what about you?

Heather: 1:14:44

I love what you said. And I am I think we could comfortably say people want to be seen, want to be heard. Want to be understood. Want to be mirrored for their best essential qualities, because like you said, when you're seen for your best inside makes you want to be more of that. And we we do connect with people that mirror our best selves back, we see ourselves in that I certainly do. And I think we can, we can generalize to that, because that's a human need. As a species, we are born into at least a dyad by our biology, and we cannot survive without one another. We can't, as, as a human infant, we do not survive in the wild on our own. So we know by definition, we need each other, we end up getting hurt interpersonally, and we heal interpersonally. And we need mirroring, I certainly needed as a human, and I think we can comfortably generalize to that. And we need that mirroring of our best selves, we get a lot of reflection on what we're doing wrong, and what's wrong with us. And there's not enough reflection to children all the way through adulthood, of what's right about us. And as we know that Enneagram does a beautiful job in the right hands of showing us what's right about us. So we can lean into that and connect with people about it, and get inside of ourselves. And then get outside of ourselves with someone else as a compassionate witness. And in that nexus in that connection, I think that's where we heal. So my reform bill is, let's do that. And let's do that as many places as we can. And it's a piece and it's foundational. And then there's lots of other stuff that goes on top of it. And it begins before a child's even born.

Clay Tumey: 1:17:11

You have never thought about this before, the way that you the way that you describe how we need each other. I've always I've heard many people say we need each other, we're social beings where this happened, you know, and I accept that, by the way, I've never heard it described at birth, where, like an infant by itself will literally die. That's correct. And there's a point. If you no baby born today, it'll die if it doesn't have somebody taken care of for X amount of time, but at the end of x, there becomes a point where they can stay alive. But there's other growth that needs to happen. That's not just physical, staying alive, or whatever. And there, I've never thought about it in that way. And I've never considered that at some point. Like kids might be technically able to stay alive, but they're not getting what they need to grow,

Heather: 1:18:06

and they'll fail to thrive without the interpersonal connection. Yeah, I mean, we, we have an actual we have an actual biological response. When we are gazing at a child, it's called a foveal. glint, that's literally the name for the sparkle in the eye, when you're mirroring your child or a person you're in love with. And you get that, you know, in cartoons, how they draw that little star, that's the foveal glint. And you're literally mirroring love back at them radiating love. And, and without that mirroring. Without that connection. Children don't thrive, they don't even grow the same. And you, I don't want to quote the name wrong. So I won't say the name. But there's kind of a naturalistic we'll call it a study, but it wasn't a study because it was happening during war time. And because this is going to be broadcast, and I don't have the details in my head. I'm gonna be very loose about the details

Clay Tumey: 1:19:14

to say this way to not be wrong. Exactly. Exactly. I really do that. Yeah.

Heather: 1:19:20

But there was an orphanage and where babies were being cared for and the children in the ward, the babies in the ward were dying. And when they would get quite ill, they would put them in this one nurses care and then sometimes they would live and to make a long story short, and we'll be sparing the details.

Clay Tumey: 1:19:50

She gave a shit.

Heather: 1:19:51

She helped them. She helped them. Yeah, that was the big magic secret. She held them And, you know, there's I mean, the hollows monkey experience with the cloth monkey versus the wire monkey that fed. I mean, there's a whole host of things we could talk about on this podcast.

Clay Tumey: 1:20:16

And we will I guarantee you, I can't wait to send

Heather: 1:20:19

you like 15 things Yeah, now. But there's a failure to thrive and the body actually does shut down, and a child won't even develop the same. So for that's, and that's before we start talking about nutrition and the cortisol levels of the mother, and how stressed she is and whether she had access to proper nutrition, whether she got to have, you know, a good night's sleep or whether she was trying to find a place to live. I mean, before we even get to all those inequities. At At birth, if you're not held, and you're not, you're not nurtured in that way, you're not even going to start out on the same starting line

Clay Tumey: 1:20:58

is, can it be fixed? Or can it be repaired? Or I mean, if it's, is it are our babies or young people? Are they stunted? Is it possible to be still not possible? Or they stunted beyond growth? Down the line? So what if you from zero to four, you get what you need, but four to six? You don't? And then from six on? Things are good again. Is there a way that get from four to six? Is it gone forever? Is hope last forever? Or can we go back and treat somehow that child that they didn't get what they needed for two years? Is it permanent?

Heather: 1:21:39

Well, I wouldn't be able to make sweeping generalizations since there's so much there. And I also wouldn't presume, presume that we could know all of that at this point with what we do know. But I, from everything I've read and experienced, I would consider things like a diathesis stress model, right? You have certain predispositions to whatever your genes bring you, whatever. Situation life has handed you, all of the generational traumas your family has endured, everything's adding to you got a great hand, you got to not so great hand, that's your diathesis. Right. That's the disposition that you're you're dealt with. And the better the disposition, the more stress you can take. The the harder the hand you were dealt, the less stress you can take before you break. But Is anybody hopeless? I've seen very few cases that I thought were completely like, wow, I don't I don't quite know what to do there. But can we make inroads with everyone we have to try? And I won't? I won't say Is there anyone beyond beyond hope or anything like that? I can't make any maths. Yeah, there's, I have many thoughts coming up that I wouldn't want to go there. But I would say that I, I want to be committed to try to get anyone that I come in contact with better for the interaction I have with them. And even if that just means having a genuine connection, trying to see the person for who they are trying to see their best qualities. And sometimes you have to work harder than others to find them. But trying to really do that genuinely. And some people are really hurt, and really hurting. So they do a lot of hurt. And they do a lot of damage.

Clay Tumey: 1:23:57

I think our I don't know, is this a cultural thing? We we were so happy with punishment. And happy is not what it actually is. But we're so eager. Once you see something in the news, this guy did that thing. And a lot of people are immediately comfortable saying string him up by his toes. Screw that guy. He's hopeless. He did this thing. He didn't deserve to be here anymore. And what I hear you saying is Hold on a second. Like, he's not just doing this for the hell of it. He's not getting a need met. And what if we met the need?

Heather: 1:24:42

Well, you know, I think we can all be reactive and reactionary. When we're, you know, in, in our, in our talks before we've we've been in circles where we're asked if we're above the line and below the line and whether you're in a you know In a reactive state, we can all go there when we're hurt. And it's it's an act of intention, it's a practice. And when you find yourself being reactive, we have to take a deep breath and then put ourselves in a different position. And, and. And when people go immediately to retribution and just desserts, they're often making a fundamental attribution error, right? Like, if we're, if we're driving, and we cut someone off, we can say it was, in our, in our head, our immediate reaction is like, Oh, well, I'm, I'm late I'm in I'm in a rush. I didn't mean to. And we don't think we're a bad person, because we cut them off, but somebody else cuts us off. And we might say, well, that guy or that girl or whatever, you hear people could you license in a crackerjack box? Right. And, you know, the attribution is different. It's situational for us, but it's trade for them. And I think of that, when I hear people talk about people they've never met, in circumstances, they don't know. And certainly haven't walked a mile in their shoes or in their skin or their in their experience. And we feel where we can feel like, oh, it's it's trait for them. But it stayed for us if we do it. I had to, there was no other choice. Yeah. That's what I think of when I, when I hear people talk like that.

Clay Tumey: 1:26:39

My mom and I were talking this weekend about the podcast and all the people that have been on, there's some amazing guests that we've had. And one of the comments that she made, and I'm paraphrasing, but she, I may be saying this verbatim. What I heard her say was like, the people are interesting. It's it's a topic that is relevant, and it matters. And you know, they're fun like this is I find joy, and just chit chatting. And so she, you know, enjoys listening to what she said. And the people are just so smart. Like, there's like, there's just some really smart people in this community. And as I hear you talk, and I agree with her that there are some super bright people on the other end of the house right now, as we talk. I hear you talk. And I just, I'm almost envious of like you say things like fovea glint. And like, I don't even know, is that an F or a pH? You know, I've never and I could talk for hours, about stuff like that. I find it so fascinating. I think you're an interesting person. And and you just know a lot. And so I I love, I could go down that rabbit hole for hours. And probably well off Mike down the road. Tonight or some other time. Yes,

Heather: 1:28:00

I'll be sending you some text. Yeah, please do.

Clay Tumey: 1:28:03

I also want to know, before we end your your entry point with EPP and why why this project is relevant to you. Or if it's relevant, I don't want to just assume that the purpose of the podcast is to tell the story of who we've become in the last 10 years as we approach our 10th anniversary next year. And so at what point did you come in? What have you seen? What did you see initially? What have you seen since since? What is the project mean? Do you

Heather: 1:28:42

so many good things to unpack there. And I think your mom's pretty smart, too. By the way. She's She's I love talking to you. as well. I really, really enjoyed my conversation with her. She

Clay Tumey: 1:28:59

listens to these by the way, so go, hey.

Heather: 1:29:06

I thought she sounded really smart, too. Okay, so what's my connection to EPP we'll start there. There was a few questions there, but that was one of them. My connection to EPP so i i first read about the Enneagram and learned my type and then had only a passing kind of, you know, a friend had introduced me to it and I learned my type and then I didn't do anything with it. And it was years later that a colleague asked me what my type was and then handed me Richard roars, CDs and I listened to them on my commute and all of a sudden the Enneagram mattered to me. It was just the right time for me and listening to each type on the CDs Each day when I was driving to work, all of a sudden, it was like a map to everything. And it unfolded. How people see me and gave me really good insight to how annoying noxious like could be, and gave me new insights to, like, I need to chill with people. I could be a lot. It just like started teaching me in a way I was ready to be taught. And so I was just ready, I was ready for the Enneagram to teach me and I was ready. I was ready to be taught. So I picked up the Enneagram and then I dove right in like a good seven with full mental gluttony just reading everything I could love that phrase Oh, really good until gluttony reading everything I could reading all the all the all the books you read when when you're beginning, and they were just also fascinating and amazing. And when I find something good, and beautiful in the world, I want to bring it to prison. Anything that's healing to those of us that don't live in those walls, if it's healing to us, it's going to be healing on the inside. And so, as is my natural inclination, after I loved the Enneagram I wanted to get to bring it to the people that live inside the prison. And I started to try to write like a class on it. And then I'm like, I can't do this. Any credit expert. Somebody's got to have done this before. And I just googled the world words, any gram and prison and you know, who came up Enneagram Prison Project. Thank goodness, they kept the name really on the nose. Yeah. It came up.

Clay Tumey: 1:32:02

Prison is our middle name. I still say that should be a teaser cheese t shirt. Everybody says so. And yet here we

Heather: 1:32:11

are. Um, you know, we you are EPP so you could make that T shirt.

Clay Tumey: 1:32:17

You would think so? You can just make it I can make it look good. Just get a sharpie and write it on. This is gonna stop me there. sharpies down there.

Heather: 1:32:26

Hey, that's your way to lift the table. Okay, there we go. There's the table. You can go get. We found it. Yeah, get your eight momentum going. Work the Enneagram process. So I googled it. And Enneagram Prison Project came up. What year was this? Gosh, I don't even know. I was asked that a couple times.

Clay Tumey: 1:32:46

Isn't it? So it's in the

Heather: 1:32:47

last decade? I'm gonna say like 2017 2018.

Clay Tumey: 1:32:51

So pretty recently, last three, four years.

Heather: 1:32:53

Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. And I called EPP the number on the website. And

Clay Tumey: 1:33:01

people still make phone calls out here in the future.

Heather: 1:33:04

Yeah, yeah, we use this thing called a phone. Yeah. Wow. Well, there. Yeah.

Clay Tumey: 1:33:10

You get one they answered. Was it a voicemail or was an actual person? I got

Heather: 1:33:14

the Enneagram. I got voicemail numerous times. And then one day, and I think Susan and I both feel like it's just kind of sort of some sort of universal universe momentum force that occurred with say, divine intervention, perhaps. Yeah. I kept calling. And when the next time I called. I didn't get voicemail. I got Susan Olesek herself. And I think she was a little startled because it somehow had a ring to what she calls the bat phone, which is the one that rings directly to her. Yeah. And she said she's like it ring the bat phone. I just was caught unawares. And I, you know, I said, Hey, I work in this prison identified myself. And I said, I love the Enneagram. And I really, really want you to come to a program here. And I think we were on the phone maybe an hour or two.

Clay Tumey: 1:34:12

Susan doesn't do 10 minute chats.

Heather: 1:34:14

I don't either. Yeah. I mean, I can't if we have to, but I don't want to. She Yeah, I just I fell in love with the Enneagram Prison Project. And I could really feel how great EPP is I could feel it. And she ended up saying I just kept thinking, Are you real? Are you real? can hear it? And I didn't have that thought because I was just so in love with the whole program and with how substantive she felt and how solid she felt. And I could really feel that but I have been amazed ever since I get to now have the I guess it's a she had it first but now I keep getting having that feeling like you are real, you are real. And this is really happening. This is amazing stuff. So we had this beautiful talk, and I was just about to leave for a vacation to Europe. And she didn't know that. And she was saying, well, our programs are in and she started listing the prisons and jails that they were in. And she said, we're in the UK, we're in Belgium. And I was going to the UK in Belgium the following week. Nice.

Clay Tumey: 1:35:31

So it

Heather: 1:35:32

felt like I'm supposed to go see these programs.

Clay Tumey: 1:35:34

Did you go did? And no way.

Heather: 1:35:37

The first Enneagram Prison Project I saw

Clay Tumey: 1:35:41

was on the other side of the world. That's right across the pond was a UK or Belgium both.

Heather: 1:35:45

I went to UK first first, okay, UK, and then I went to Belgium. So

Clay Tumey: 1:35:50

that's it. I didn't know that. By the way. I might have heard that at some point and didn't store it properly. But that's

Heather: 1:35:56

I didn't know that John Felipe took me to three prisons in Belgium, John Philippe, for those who

Clay Tumey: 1:36:01

don't know, is a warden, at a prison. And in Belgium, and just the greatest. Absolutely.

Heather: 1:36:08

veba drove me from Paris to

Clay Tumey: 1:36:10

Belgium. How long is that? That's a hike.

Heather: 1:36:12

I bet. I don't know. But I asked her so many questions. All right. Yeah. It was beautiful.

Clay Tumey: 1:36:20

That's, that's wild. Yeah. Just a way that that all lined up. And that oh, by the way, I'm already planning to go there.

Heather: 1:36:27

I mean, I was I was gonna be there in a week. And so we did that. And then the next time I saw the Enneagram Prison Project, it was in the prison system where I work. I'm not at my prison, but at a different one. Gotcha. And then, it was after that, that we, we all got it together to get them in prison.

Clay Tumey: 1:36:49

And so are we there now?

Heather: 1:36:51

Yeah, you've been there. That's not you personally. Well,

Clay Tumey: 1:36:53

of course, I could come by the way. Am I invited? Yes. We

Heather: 1:36:56

just have to get you gate clear.

Clay Tumey: 1:36:58

They talk separately,

Heather: 1:36:59

okay.

Clay Tumey: 1:37:00

Well, I'm down. And I'm down. And I know that there's, you know, book clubs and other stuff that we like, we wouldn't even have to be Enneagram grammar later. Like I would I would love to just

Heather: 1:37:11

above that offer is extended, we will make that happen.

Clay Tumey: 1:37:14

This COVID Getting away of that are things open back up ish.

Heather: 1:37:17

It is it's opening back up now. Okay, the world is coming back in

Clay Tumey: 1:37:21

how long is the process? Like, you know, once I do, like, Hey, can I come in? From that point to when I get to go

Heather: 1:37:27

there? It's hard to generalize it depends on like, you did good at that.

Clay Tumey: 1:37:31

You do like when there's not like a safe like specific answer. You're really good at Did you do any, like law school? And you're because I know you have a very extensive education. Right? Anybody would doctor before their name? Didn't just graduate high school and quit? Was there any do you? And it's funny to ask that question that way? But I'm actually curious, do you do you learn? Like, are you just really good at this, like talking? Or do you were there actually classes along the way to say, here's how you're to be more awesome at that.

Heather: 1:38:02

Oh, by the way, you're also really awesome at talking. I think I always love speech and debate. I was interested in becoming an attorney at first. In high school, I was interested in becoming an attorney and kept the the interest in criminal justice. But I found myself wanting to know why people did what they did. More so than wanting to argue a certain point. Plus, I didn't want to I did not want the strength of my argument to decide whether somebody went to prison or not. That's uh, cuz I feel like I could win a lot of arguments.

Clay Tumey: 1:38:43

Yeah. So you were you were drawn to the criminal defense, specifically, not just law in general. Well, or either side. You were you were you probably could have done the the prosecution side too. Hmm.

Heather: 1:38:54

Well, when I was in high school, I was on the mock trial team. Yeah. And our preceptors our practicum coaches, I don't know what you'd call them. Our coaches. They were from the prosecutor's office. Okay. And I was probably more drawn to defense than prosecution. And I was worried as I talked to them, like, well, what if they had gone through this or that and then, you know, you argue well, and you win your case in an adversarial process. But if you don't think they should go and you know, your your job as an attorney would be to argue the case to the best of your ability to win to win. And you know, that the court says a whole other subject, and I'm gonna leave that alone, right. But it just wasn't the right path for me is what I'll say. Yeah. And the part I wanted to play was, how did they come to be in that position? That day, that night, that moment, and when their worst mistake define them for the rest of their lives? And can it be undone? Not? Not the hurt they caused? Because that is a restorative justice that has to occur for the rest of their life and something you can never undo. Right? But does it serve anything? For them never to get better? Does it help anybody if they don't ever get better? So that's the long answer is no, I didn't have any law training other than mock trial in high school to answer your question. But, you know, being in correctional psychology of forensic psychology, and I was an expert witness. So that's a kind of oration you have to do when you testify, but as a forensic examiner, so. But even in corrections, there's an intersection of criminal justice and psychology.

Clay Tumey: 1:40:57

It's so fascinating. And I don't know that I would have ever gone down the route anyways, even if if I've righted my train early enough. But I'm just fascinated by people who can be that good. And that informed and educated in that just capable in that hole. And I find it I find it fascinating. I wish I knew that about the the mock trial.

Heather: 1:41:20

You would have been phenomenal. I would have, I would have prepared something

Clay Tumey: 1:41:23

for this conversation. Like I would have, like thrown out like a fake. thing. I think I probably you know, anything. I don't know. I feel like I'm good at bullshitting. Which is which? Which is is it? Is it bad that I think that that would have given me an advantage? Well,

Heather: 1:41:39

I guess the question to ask yourself about that is how do you define that? Right? What is the definition of blessing? Because I think that's where you find different finesse of debate.

Clay Tumey: 1:41:50

I think to me, like, if I know or if I believe, like, I don't know, I just pick something random in the room here like the fireplace like it's not a real fireplace. I know enough about it to know that the fire that's real fire, but it's not actual wood burning it's gas. And then there's a fan you can turn on to like blow hot air. If we were talking about the fire. I feel like I could read your knowledge of this fire, and then use your lack of knowledge against you. And I think that's what bullshitting is. Because I'm taking. I'm not trying to sell you something that's not real. You know, I'm trying to manipulate your lack of information, and

Heather: 1:42:40

very idiosyncratic definition of bullshit.

Clay Tumey: 1:42:43

I don't know what that means.

Heather: 1:42:45

It's a unique way to define it. I wouldn't have thought of defining that term that way.

Clay Tumey: 1:42:51

What do you think would be a typical way of, of defining bullshitting? Yeah, I told you there's no rules.

Heather: 1:43:03

And because I'm also trying to track all of the questions that we didn't ask so that I could go back to them if necessary. Okay, we're on let's there's this thread, thread, this thread this thread go back to Okay, so the question at hand is, how do I define bullshitting? Yeah. I think there's a, I would say the prototype the idealized cognitive model of bullshitting, which is like, the central prototypical would be that you don't know what you're talking about. And you act as if you do. Gotcha. That's what I would have said. I thought the definition was okay. That's like the idealized cognitive model of it. That makes sense.

Clay Tumey: 1:43:49

We can get down with that too.

Heather: 1:43:50

But by the way, I'm going to send you that book if you have never read it, George Lakoff, simem. It's called Women fire and dangerous things. Because it's a word that means all those things anyway. So like the, I have to tell you this now because I know you're gonna appreciate it. So there's a prototypical definition of something in your head. So think,

Clay Tumey: 1:44:11

bird, okay, there, okay.

Heather: 1:44:13

And that bird, it has certain qualities traits, aspects in your in your head. But a penguin is a bird. Turkey is a bird. There's lots of different kind of birds and it goes out in a continuum.

Clay Tumey: 1:44:30

I want you to get to my birds. How many birds take? Yeah, and it becomes less

Heather: 1:44:33

birds like, yeah, to your prototypical? Yeah. So so that idealized cognitive model of bullshit would have been, you don't know what you're talking about, but you spin it like you do.

Clay Tumey: 1:44:45

Fascinating. That's actually probably I would have if you told me that first. Instead of asking me, I would say, Yeah, of course,

Heather: 1:44:50

that's bullshit. Yours was say it again,

Clay Tumey: 1:44:53

using your lack of knowledge. It's the it's the flip side of that, where you're saying the prototypical would be me not knowing But trying to pretend that I do. And what I'm saying is, you don't know. Maybe I don't know, exploit

Heather: 1:45:09

it. Yeah. So I would consider that the critical thinking and identification of the weakness in my argument, is what you're doing. So that you can then seek to exploit to persuade. So you, you're examining the weakness in my argument, and it might be identifying the areas you think I don't know what I'm talking about,

Clay Tumey: 1:45:30

or just testing one thing that you weren't positive or weren't sure, or where your argument argument was weak, or whatever, or like this. This is like a fun thing to do with with religion, where and I could do this with a with a believer or an atheist, it's, it's to say, absolutely, that God is real, or God is not real. I can poke holes on either side of that, because ultimately, you're talking about faith. And you can't prove scientifically, in my belief, at least that you that you can't prove any of it. That's what faith is. And so it's fun. It's just fun to me to poke holes in people's stories and to reveal to them this is not fact.

Heather: 1:46:09

Is it also fun to take an idea and argue both sides of it in your head.

Clay Tumey: 1:46:14

Absolutely. If you said right now, either way I am. I believe in God, I don't believe in God. I'm fully prepared for both fights.

Heather: 1:46:23

So you would have fun, you would have been a superstar on speech and debate team, by the way, because that's literally the job

Clay Tumey: 1:46:30

that my job is can I go back to high school and do that now?

Heather: 1:46:33

No, but you know what, we can have an EPP Speech and Debate Club. I'm here for money.

Clay Tumey: 1:46:38

We can have the ambassador Olympics.

Heather: 1:46:41

Yes, we should be good. Okay. I think that that should be the next picnic.

Clay Tumey: 1:46:45

You want at the next picnic? Instead of us getting up there and talking lovey dovey stuff you want us to argue?

Heather: 1:46:50

No, I want the lovey dovey stuff, because I am here for that. Okay. And by the way, it was all very beautiful. I need that. But the Speech and Debate, by the way, is not arguing in my book. Okay. It is mental gymnastics, mental agility? It's mental Olympics,

Clay Tumey: 1:47:10

right? Yeah. I'm down. Plus, are you gonna facilitate what's what's the word? The what's the judge called a facilitator? mediator? What would you if you're the if you're the person running the show there? I will do that. You'll you'll come up with the title because they really do

Heather: 1:47:25

that. And I don't think I don't think that speech and debate in my opinion, is arguing. For argument's sake, I think it's not only a persuasive art, but it's hearing each other because the only way you can the only way you can win that is by hearing the other person truly listening to it. Yeah. metabolizing it taking it in and then giving a counterpoint and then using it against them? Well in class to speak to Clay's definition of bullshit. Exactly. But, but yeah, I mean, to to take in what they say and hear. To really hear them. You you can't debate somebody properly if you haven't listened to them. I love

Clay Tumey: 1:48:10

I love that sentence. And I swear I will put that on a t shirt too. You can't properly debate someone unless you hear them. That's right. I love that.

Heather: 1:48:20

Now you've got two T shirts to make.

Clay Tumey: 1:48:21

I have so many T shirts. You have no idea. Let me go through the list of T shirts and then we're gonna wrap it up. We're over an hour by the way, it probably didn't feel like so there's EPP prison is our middle name. That's right. There's EPP hippie bullshit. That's from Yeah, that's no hippie shit hippie. Not just hippie shit. That's from the last episode but you'll listen to it on the flight home. It's episode seven you'll feel set a funny thing and that's the new shirt. There's there's so there's so many i There's every time I think that's cute. T shirt and I just say it so now there you go. There's we have a new T shirt every that's to go every episode. That's really the whole the whole point of the podcast is a marketing ploy for fine T shirts and merch. It's really all it's about. You're gonna monetize this merch for charity. We're gonna have a T shirt with hostages and penguins. And then it's gonna say EPP and then on the back. It's just gonna say birds. Nobody will know what the hell it means. And they'll just have to figure it out. And then we'll have one that says Fabio glandt. It's so we're clay. Good talking to you. I've thoroughly enjoyed this. I have a question. And then I have an invitation. And we'll and I think you have has already answered the question. How's this been? I saw I told you 15 or 20 minutes and we're an hour deep. How's it been for you?

Heather: 1:49:47

Um, well, we talked about things that are really important to me, people I care about. I hope I've done them justice. That's the thing When you asked me to do this, I guess the my first experience of it was what? Really? Why? Why? Why are you asking me to talk on your

Clay Tumey: 1:50:10

you're a rock star, by the way to the ambassadors and a lot of the people who know you so to us, it's like a no brainer. And everybody I mentioned he was like, obviously, yes, definitely. Robin and included, get Yes. Take her. Oh, yeah, that's such a no brainer. Well,

Heather: 1:50:25

I would, I would not have known that. So thank you, I'm gonna take that compliment and, and put it deep in my heart. So I really do appreciate that. And thank you, it does feel good to be seen. And I didn't know how to achieve drugstore status. So that's very exciting. So my first thought was really what? You're asking me to be on a podcast, and I just heard how great your podcast is literally right before that. And so I feel like I haven't. It's like, I'm the only one that hasn't seen friends or something. Yeah. Now, I gotta listen to your podcast for I can't wait to hear all the episodes. So I felt honored by your request. I really did. And how has it been for me? I, the thing I was nervous about because I told you, um, now that you've asked me, I'm nervous. Beyond the like, just, you know, personal butterflies you don't want to. I didn't. I don't want to not do justice to something so important. And I care so much about it. That I don't want to trivialize I don't want to sensationalize. And I don't. I don't want it to be about me. I want it to be about the people that people sometimes don't think are people. And I want to remember both their victims, for them with them, which honors the victims and their struggles. But I want to also honor the people that sometimes people don't even think of as people. And I just didn't want to mess up.

Clay Tumey: 1:52:13

I'm comfortable saying that you did not mess up.

Heather: 1:52:17

I'm glad I don't thank you.

Clay Tumey: 1:52:19

Thank you again, I there's two things that I don't do. There's a lot of things I don't do. Two things I don't do with the podcast, I don't introduce people and I don't take the last word. So I want to give you the last word, I'm going to shut up and just give you all the time, anything that's on your mind that we didn't get to anything you'd like to share, say or not say whatever. There's no time limit. It's all yours. And I'll just sit here and listen.

Heather: 1:52:43

I feel great gratitude. I feel great gratitude for living the life that I live, I feel very blessed to know all of you and to be part of everything we're all doing in the world. And I just want more of this for everyone. And it sounds trite as I say it, but if if people could feel what I feel they know that we just need more of this in the world. More honest conversations, more listening to each other, more appreciating each other's divine gifts, mirroring it back to each other

Clay Tumey: 1:53:49

thanks to the generosity of a donor just like you on Giving Tuesday, EPP is doubling the impact of every donation dollar for dollar up to$100,000. Funds will support EPP ability to expand our programming, including piloting our eight module curriculum with those experiencing incarceration at facilities and in regions that are new to us. For more information and to make a gift, check us out online at Enneagram prison project.org