Episode 6: I'm in this with you

Clay Tumey: 0:06

Hi, my name is Clay Tumey, and I am an ambassador for the Enneagram Prison Project. As we approach our 10th anniversary, we thought it'd be fun to sit down and have a chat with all the people who have had a major impact along the way, with EPP. In today's episode, I chat with two people who take the Enneagram into prison and share it with those who are on the inside and looking for a way out. We call them eppp guides and without them, the project simply does not exist. What's happening? I like to wait until they take a drink to ask my first question.

Dana Vitorelo: 0:49

You're such a kind man.

Clay Tumey: 0:51

You've listened to the podcast before? Yeah. Yeah, I listened to it the minute it comes out. I love your podcast. So you know that we're like, starting we've already started. Because there's no like formal or formal introduction is like not is not my thing. So we just start talking and who knows, like, even Robin might decide now this is not actually the best place and then he'll decide where the best like we're gonna we're gonna cut that shit out. It's probably Yeah, and I don't I love it, it's my favorite thing about doing it is that I don't have to really like worry about making any decisions, I can just talk and do the easy part. And then like hand it off to people who are more like, more aware of what's good or bad or better or worse, or whatever.

Dana Vitorelo: 1:30

It is pretty incredible how supportive ebp is, as an organization, like how how many hands and brains and hearts it takes to be able to get done, what the organization does. It's amazing.

Clay Tumey: 1:44

I agree. And I've, I've gotten the benefit of that more than a few times in my life. I 100% agree. Before we go too far. Introduce yourself, say who you're what whatever you feel like sharing with us as little or as much just so people will know who we're talking to.

Dana Vitorelo: 2:00

Okay, my name is Dana. And I'd love to leave it there. But I also get that we're talking about guides, and I'm a guide with Enneagram Prison Project.

Clay Tumey: 2:12

What exactly does a guide do?

Dana Vitorelo: 2:16

A guide has the great pleasure of being able to well, actually now it's not just going on the inside, we get to do it on the outside, too. But when I first started with the project, all of our work was only on the inside. And we get to go inside and explore the Enneagram. with people. That's pretty awesome.

Clay Tumey: 2:37

How, how long have you been a guide? I

Dana Vitorelo: 2:43

saw something on my LinkedIn the other day and I have officially been working with MPP for four and a half years I was around the project for two years before that, but I've been a guide for four and a half years.

Clay Tumey: 2:55

Do you have like an actual anniversary? Like when it hits five years? Will you know like today is the day? Or is it just like a general time period?

Dana Vitorelo: 3:01

No, it's a it's a general time period I have I have to have LinkedIn to tell me. But the anniversary that I do do in my head is every August I am reminded that I will have known Vic and Alex for a year longer. Because that's where I met them. And that's a part of ETP Did you meet them when

Clay Tumey: 3:19

you were inside teaching?

Dana Vitorelo: 3:21

No, I met them at Val and brosa when I was getting certified to the narrative Enneagram. And then we I met them there and I was like, oh, Sandy, like I you know me, I wanted nothing to do with anyone. I made it very clear. I wasn't there to make friends. And then Vic and Alex I was like, Oh, these guys are cool as hell like I want to hang out with them. And quickly fell in love as everyone does. And it was kind of like, I knew I wanted to be a part of the project in whatever way I could even if it was doing paperwork and filing for Rick and Susan just has to be around the energy.

Clay Tumey: 4:00

So if I'm if I'm hearing you correctly, you're asking for more paperwork. For more filing to do. work,

Dana Vitorelo: 4:09

then got it turned out. I'm not I'm not as good at clerical work as other things that the project needs before.

Clay Tumey: 4:17

So why why do and there's like so many places to start here. Like we could go to why we're getting velin brosa? Why did you care about the Enneagram we still haven't used to haven't shared what type you relate to the most. And not that you'll ever have to I'm just saying like there's a lot of starting points that we could go with. But the thing that pops first in my head, why are we calling them a guide instead of a teacher? Because to me, like I grew up with the idea that teachers teach and I go to school and I have teachers and I don't know something and now a teacher teaches me and now I do know something so why with the Enneagram Prison Project. Why am I calling you an MPP guide instead of an MPP teacher? Yeah.

Dana Vitorelo: 5:00

That's a really good question. And I'm sure that there's actually some kind of party line that we use for this. But for me, my understanding of it really is that I can kind of go in and teach anything. But it doesn't mean that I've done the work to be able to walk hand in hand with you side by side with you to actually be able to help guide you as you navigate the territory. And so one of the beautiful things about TPP is we aren't just going in and kind of teaching the Enneagram, which by the way, has its place. I'm a big fan of, you know, I'm a six with a five wing. So I love it when people are willing to teach at me. But that's not really the best way to be able to learn how to do our inner work, especially in prison is not like the safest place to be able to navigate this territory of doing our inner work. And so it's a lot easier to have a facilitator who's like, I'm in this with you, like, it's not easy, this hits hard. And I am right next to you in this step by step. And that's really what our guides are there. That's what we're all doing. On the inside. We're not just teaching about what the Enneagram is we're embodying the work that we've done, and the work that we're asking our students or inviting our students to do.

Clay Tumey: 6:12

A few a couple months ago, I think it was in June now. So maybe three months ago, I talked with five ambassadors, who had done had gone through the program on the inside. And then they've since gotten out. And we talked through like the first days out what it's like to be newly released and all that stuff. And I think it'd be silly if I didn't ask, what was it like, as a guide? to go in for the first time? Like, what are the what are the what were your experiences, I kind of just want to know everything about the first time you stepped foot inside of a correctional institution, which I'll say as I roll my eyes, because they don't correct a whole lot, but it's what they call themselves. Had you ever been to a jail or prison before that? Like was EPP your first experience going in? And if so just like what was that all, like?

Dana Vitorelo: 7:02

EPP was my first real experience when I was younger, I had friends that were kind of in and out. And so sometimes I would go and visit or bring people to go visit. But this was my first time like really going in and being able to stay. And I feel so lucky to be able to say this, I had a very kind of unique training with Enneagram Prison Project, I was fresh out of my Enneagram classes. So basically, I didn't know shit. And I went in and the way that they had it set up was okay. Susan is going to teach in the morning, and for three hours, and you're going to watch Susan teach. And then in the afternoon, you're going to replicate Susan's teaching, which, like, she's, thank you, you cannot replicate Susan like, and not just the, the, the teaching and the guiding that she does, but like, the energy, the depth and breadth of knowledge. I mean, she's just incredible. And so I was like, This is hard. And I was so committed to it. But I think the the reason why it could be so committed in the face of like, I can't do this, and I don't know what I'm doing. And bla bla bla, which is so much my type story. And it's no longer the same as it was then but was because I absolutely fell in love with the guys. We were doing a class in the morning with our CP, which is a program at Elmwood correctional that basically is if you're really well behaved you go in and you do this regimented program and your program from morning tonight, and Vic talks about it in in his thing. And neelum was there at the time running the show. And then in the afternoon, we had an AV 109 Group, which were guys that were serving prison terms in the county jail, which if you know anything about it is like the last thing that people want to do is serve a prison term in county jail because extra time constantly gets added on. And I was just like, these are my people. This is it. Like I have found my people there. They're all in jail in prison. And it was so enlivening. And I think for the first time in my life felt really, really passionate about something. And so I got to spend you know what, it was an eight week class at the time, I don't think we were a 12 week classes all day long. with Susan watching Susan was in there with Rick and some other people. It was really, really incredible. So and it was an easy entry point. And then my first time into San Quentin was obviously very different because it's, it's a prison and there's like a lot of history around it in the state of California. And I got to go in to be on a Type Six panel for Susan and I again, that's where I met Erin West one of our other guides who I absolutely adore. And I was like, Okay, this is this is it stakes are higher as men and blue lifers. Again, I was like, yep, still my people. Okay, I'm in the right place.

Clay Tumey: 9:54

What the hell is a be 109. I've heard I'm in Texas, you're in California. I've heard people throw that out there. Before I've heard Vick talk about it. I've heard. I think I've heard Dustin talk about it, maybe. But people just throw these terms out like that. Actually, we use a lot of code in this world, like, maybe 109 is one that gets thrown around a lot. Like you're just saying men in blue, like that's something different. Like it's a movie about AWACS as men and black men. But like, but we use a lot of phrases that the average listener might not always know about. So we can talk about any of them. But what what is a b 109? And why do guys serving time under that? Get more time? Why do they get time added on or whatever the phrase was that you said,

Dana Vitorelo: 10:39

Sorry, I wasn't clear. Ab 109 is a thing where it's a. It's like if you have a certain crime, you're actually allowed to serve your time in a county jail instead of a prison. The only reason extra time gets added is because county jail. They're sticklers for everything. Like if you have a paperclip, but we're gonna add time on like, I mean, you have an

Clay Tumey: 10:59

exaggeration, by the way, that is exactly how it is you have a paperclip and that is contraband. And you are getting a case now.

Dana Vitorelo: 11:07

Yeah, yeah. So that that's why it's a kind of a point of contention there. Like just send me to prison where no one cares if I have a ballpoint pen or paper clip or a staple and that the only time is going to get added on is if I actually really do some shit.

Clay Tumey: 11:25

I interrupted to ask about ab 109. And I forgot where we were, but probably talking about your first experience in prison and your panel experience in San Quentin. And all that good stuff. What At what point did you did you know, well, back develop vallin brosa. Like you're saying that your invoice, you're avoiding people, you're not trying to make friends and all this stuff. And that's where you met Alex and Vic, why were you doing Enneagram work if it didn't involve being interactive with other people like what's what was your entry point to the Enneagram itself,

Dana Vitorelo: 11:56

introduced to the Enneagram. in graduate school, one of my classmates was actually getting certified through the narrative. And I was like, Oh, that's kind of interesting. And then I read books on it. And I wasn't sure if I was a five or six. And I kind of always was going back and forth between those two. And I had worked for a couple of nonprofits. And I was working for a company at the time, that helps mostly kids, but kind of anyone, for the most part, like read better if they were struggling with reading. And I was like, Okay, I can't do this for the rest of my life. Like, this is very cool work. But like, I just, I just can't do this for the rest of my life. And, and very, at the time, it felt random, but I get now that all the ways that like the universe supports and that when I'm not being totally dense, I can listen and trust and take a leap of faith. That was like, I'm gonna go get trained in the Enneagram of becoming Enneagram future, what the fuck I thought I was gonna do with that. I have no idea. And at the time, I really did hate people couldn't tolerate people, my social awkwardness and anxiety was so bad, like, there's no way that I could have launched myself and try to work with people. And I actually had no desire to do it. And then I think when I met Vic and Alex there, I was, like, oh, like, this is why I'm here. And then And then again, I met Rick and I got to do a class with him and Susan had dropped in and, and so I was like, This is why I'm here. Like, this is why I came this was divine timing, it was pretty incredible. Because I think there's probably a lot of divine timing things that I've missed by not taking the leap of faith that I'm being invited into.

Clay Tumey: 13:30

So what was it like the the process to even become a guide, you know, four and a half years ago, or whenever it's different than it is now? Right? Yeah. What was it like back then?

Dana Vitorelo: 13:42

It was long and hard. So very quickly, I realized, as I'm doing this training with Susan, that I don't know what the fuck I'm doing. At the lunch break everyday, like very nicely, she would be like, hey, great work. And by the way, I don't know. I don't know if this is the way that that it was for her. But this is the way that I heard it. And granted, I was very in my type structure at the time. But it was like every lunch break I heard like what I felt was like this really immense disappointment. And like, I just need you to know you're probably not getting hired. Like hope you can hack it and like you're probably not getting hired. I don't know that that's actually right. So like so much projection on my side, also, like deep kindness, but like, I just felt like she was like, don't get your expectations up, right. Like you're not there yet. And I wasn't I really wasn't. So I left. I stayed involved with the project in other ways. I did the whole training, stayed involved with the project and other ways came back 18 months later, after I had certified through the narrative. I got dual certified in their professional track and their teachers track. And then I was like, Okay, I I kind of know what I'm talking about now, like there's more confidence here. And like maybe a couple days before I was fully certified, she had invited me into San Quentin and After the panel, she was like, Hey, we need guides. And I was like, be she's like, cool. Can you start in two weeks? And I was like, yeah, let me I will rearrange my whole life for this. And I did. So yeah, it was and then the next two, they were not called gtps. At the time, they were called the teacher training program, because at that time, we we didn't have this whole kind of guide ship thing down. And I took both of those with Susan and Gail Scott and I, I learned a ton. So I am like the person who has taken GTP, probably more than anyone else. Except for maybe Sue,

Clay Tumey: 15:37

were you. So when you became a guide, were there were there other guys that were kind of already like doing it? Or were you one of the first

Dana Vitorelo: 15:48

there were other guides doing it, one had one kind of as I came in, fate phased out and then another one was getting kind of getting ready to retire. So she was teaching some classes, and then she phased out. So then it was like Susan and I both teaching like eight classes a week. And then we got the crew with Susanne, and Phil from Minnesota, Donna and Tam from Australia, Mila, and Heather Neely, Karen, Jackie, and a bunch of them came in, in the next month, Lance did that did the training. So maybe Susan and I are doing it just the two of us for six months or a year. And then kind of people arrived.

Clay Tumey: 16:28

So for somebody who's never been in either as an inmate or even as a visitor, and they might know a little bit about the Enneagram, or what eppp does, and all that good stuff, but maybe they don't know the the nuts and bolts of actually going in and teaching or guiding inmates. You know me you know more about that than probably anybody. I mean, obviously, Susan, as well. But there aren't many people in the world who know what we do better than than you. Is that a fair? Is that a fair thing to say? Throw all humility out the window, you know what the hell I'm asking you? And the answer is yes or no. Is that I mean, you're the most qualified for me to ask. Can you explain what the hell you're doing? When you go inside? Was it used to be eight weeks now? It's 12 weeks or whatever? Like, What are y'all? What exactly are you doing? In an EPP class?

Dana Vitorelo: 17:22

Yeah, I'm happy to explain that for sure. So we

Clay Tumey: 17:27

are the most qualified by the way I know you slid out from answering that damn question. I am. I'm fairly qualified. Yes. Yeah. Yes. All right. Well, you're getting out of me for now for now. So we're clear on that for now. Sorry, go ahead how you were you were saying in all of your humility, what.

Dana Vitorelo: 17:49

So I think the very clear thing that we're walking in with curriculum wise, is we're walking in with the Enneagram. We're walking in with information on aces. So adverse childhood experiences, we're talking about trauma, we're talking about the ramifications of toxic stress, which is the result of aces, which is, you know, prolonged stress in our bodies, we're talking about addiction, because especially in the United States, and in California, a massive percentage of our students are in there because of addiction, or something that is drug or alcohol related. Maybe I'm selling drugs, maybe I've got a DUI, like whatever that may be. And, and I think the other thing that we're doing is we're loving them. We're offering unconditional positive regard, we're offering holding, we're offering love and we're offering and I think I do it in maybe in a slightly different way than other people, because I can be very hard. We're also offering the truth. So like, I love you, and you're doing things that are absolutely fucking destroying your life. You don't have to keep doing that. You You have choice. And now let's look at the choices. Let's look at the patterning. I mean, the whole I think I know for me, and then for my students pretty consistently, it is so illuminating, to read on a piece of paper, once we finally find our territory, like are habituated ways of thinking and feeling and doing and just to feel so like, called out by that and like, UK, that is true and and like how good it feels to know that we're not alone. And that there's a way out and that we actually come in with these essential qualities, these inherent gifts, these awesome strengths that that maybe we weren't aware of, and that maybe no one saw or recognized or reflected back in us. So we're doing a lot of loving, a lot of folding a lot of a lot of hard truth telling, and then the basics of the Enneagram addiction and trauma.

Clay Tumey: 19:48

He mentioned the aces that is the what the adverse childhood experience was the is

Dana Vitorelo: 19:55

just that you might have more than one Oh yeah, childhood experiences.

Clay Tumey: 19:58

Okay, gotcha. So That is a that's like a super not fun thing to deal with and to fill out and to talk about and to think about, but it's absolutely necessary, especially, especially with this population. What, what, what is that? And why? Why is it so important to do that like upfront? Because it is it's one of the first things that that's done in a class. Right. But it's also, it's also one of the most painful though. So how do you how do you take the most painful part? Or what could be a very painful part? and make that step one?

Dana Vitorelo: 20:33

Yeah, that's a great question. So I, I mean, for me, what makes it kind of easy, this is maybe twisted, what makes it the easy place to go is like, I get that suffering is part of the human condition. And I want to talk about that I want to call it to light I want us to all know that we've suffered, we will continue to suffer and also to, to really think normalize that a lot of us have had aces and that they're, they're really unavoidable. And especially when we look at all of the broad things, like when you when you look at an ace assessment, it's not just those things that are aces, those are just the 10 most common that came out of the, the initial study. So but aces are like all of the hardship that happened to us in childhood that then ramps up all of our, all of our stress hormones, and then has our body our bodies running in in fight or flight, fight flight freeze. So what happens then is our, our, our brain circuitry isn't developing the way we want it to or we aren't, we aren't the way we want it to that's not good phrasing, our brain circuitry isn't developing in a way that is going to support us, we're going to have a hard time self regulating, which makes sense, right? If I can't self regulate, I'm going to do drugs, I'm going to drink, I'm going to go out and do reckless shit, I'm going to I'm going to do the things that are going to make me feel better or allow me to not have to feel anything. So it is like the hardest place to first go because it's like, Okay, let's go back to childhood trauma, I think that most of us have been trying to avoid our whole fucking life. But in going there, and really learning how to unpack these things we're doing, meaning even just the small or massive opening for healing. And because we carry all that stuff around with us. And when we can do that opening for healing, we understand that we don't have to stay in the same patterning, we don't have to keep doing the thing that we were doing to not have to feel that anymore. Because we can really start to process it, we can start to hold ourselves in a different way we can start to hold the people that that maybe did that thing to us in a certain way. I know, as I started doing all of this, you know, I adore my dad. And I there was so much friction in my childhood with my father and I had a very hard time handling the kind of energy that was coming at me all the time. And as I started unpacking all this stuff, my relationship with my dad completely changed. Like I let him be human, I got to be human. And we just got to show up and kind of take what the other person was offering. There was a lot of healing that happened after really teaching the stuff around the aces and then saying like, I have to do the work that I'm asking my students to do.

Clay Tumey: 23:19

What do you do if you get pushback? So if I'm in your class, and you want to start here, and I just don't, I'm not here for all the pain. I'm not here for the trauma to come back up in conversation. I'm here to learn what a Type Five is. I'm here to learn what a Type Three is. I'm here to learn what a Type Nine is. Like, what do you do as a guide? When you get somebody like me in in your class? Who does that? And by the way, I say like me, because I totally would have done this, by the way. And when I learned the Enneagram this was not part of it. This isn't this it was it was to it was years before this was part of the process. So I don't know that I would have been as open to just jumping straight to childhood trauma. And I would have very likely, at the very least I think I probably would have just pretended that I didn't have much and just I just give me give me straight to the book learning. And so what do you do? Surely you experienced that with some with some of the guys in the classes?

Dana Vitorelo: 24:17

Yeah, absolutely. And I invite it right I'm a six I love skepticism like keep having Oh, there's enough space for everything and and you know, I have done group process work for and trained in it for over a decade and there always has to be at least one person holding something. Someone holds the tears if everyone can't hold their own tears, someone holds the anger if everyone can't hold their own anger, someone has to hold the resistance if other people can't kind of balance out and hold their own resistance. So I welcome it. That's okay. There's enough space for all of it. All I ask is that you just sit and you stay in class as much as you can tolerate and you listen and if you don't want to engage in you don't take the you don't want to take the ACE assessment, the survey. You don't have to

Clay Tumey: 24:58

break the stereotype for people In prison is that it's a it's a bunch of, especially with men is that it's just a bunch of aggression. And there's very rarely like passive sit back and deal with it. And so surely I think, you know, I mean, I've been locked up. So I have a little clear understanding of what the typical inmate is like. But it's still like further for just your run of the mill human in American society, who doesn't know what it's like to be on the inside. They hear that and they probably think like, okay, but you're getting, you're getting some assholes in here who are like disruptive, and it's like, what do you do with that? I mean, what do you do with someone who just says, like, this is bullshit, or this is not where you should start? or whatever? Or or I don't know, correct me if I'm wrong. Is that is that not something that you experienced? much? Is it is it, dude, you're pretty tame? Or how does that? How does that look from your perspective?

Dana Vitorelo: 25:50

I mean, I would say in general, I think if someone doesn't want to do it, they're like, I'm out. And usually that happens in week one like that, because I make it very clear in week one, by the way, this is where we're going. If this isn't what you want, then this is not the class for you, or This isn't the time for you to take the class. And that's okay. No judgment, my feelings won't be hurt, it's fine. The other thing is often, not always, like I love going into places where we've never programmed like either the facility or the pod or whatever. But so often, there will be someone who has taken one of our classes. And if, if another person in the classroom gives pushback, they often will say, Look, I know it like I get it, it sounds shitty, but like give it a try. Like it, it definitely works. So if I don't have that in the classroom, where one student is, like, I don't even need to jump in, because another student is already handling it. And then I am, I'm pretty good at like lovingly pushing back on people and being like, Well, why don't you want to go there? Like, I'm okay with it. But like, let's explore that. Why don't you want to go there? What's so uncomfortable? What feels unsafe about it? Like what's scary? Like, let's, let's go to the, to the hard place. So I don't know, I think that in our classes, people are pretty stoked to be there. I mean, once people are in jail or prison in of course, everyone, really not everyone, but in most of our facilities, people are self selecting. So that'd be somewhat interested in what they thought we were offering. I find that on the inside, for the most part, our students are so acutely aware that they're suffering and they want a way out that there is to one extent or another there is a hungering and a thirst for like, I do want to change because of the way that I've been living has not been working, I haven't really been living, I absolutely have not been thriving. I don't want this anymore. And when people are okay with it. They're they're not at that place in their suffering yet. Then they just, they drop off, they don't stay in very rarely have I ever had students that are like super disrespectful. That almost never happens. I've definitely had students for like, Oh, I have I have had reactivity in response to their reactivity. And it wasn't great. hasn't happened in years, but it has happened. And I've looked back and been like, Oh, I really wish I could have dealt with that better. I wish I had right. And,

Clay Tumey: 28:20

you know, damn, well, I'm about to ask you about that. And what was that? And what were those? What were those situations?

Dana Vitorelo: 28:26

I had a situation. And I wasn't alone, right? So like, I couldn't do damage control on my own. Like I had other facilitators in the class with me, Susan was one. I don't want to give it I don't want to give too much additional information away, because, but I don't want to give you any additional details. But what I will say is I had someone on a panel, who wasn't the type that we were paneling. And which is fine. Like That happens a lot. Right? And then sometimes we let them stay. Sometimes they'll get off like it's there's a lot of freedom in that.

Clay Tumey: 28:57

What you're saying is they were they were mistyped. It was a type, you know, x panel, and they were a type y who thought they were a type x.

Dana Vitorelo: 29:05

Yes, thank you for clarifying that. And consistently, what this person was doing was taking a shit on the people that were typing. And type X was a reactive type. And the type X was not happy. And I was getting triggered as I was facilitating, and I can I can own that this is all of me and not on the other person. I was wanting to protect my panelists. I was wanting to protect the class. And I also was like, this person needs to like, they need to get off the panel. And I asked them to get off the panel in a very unkind way. I essentially kicked them off the panel and was like, you need to fucking go. And it was not my best moment, right? Like if I could have really gotten grounded and centered. I could have said, Wow, like I really see you instigating And isn't it interesting that you're saying you're this type and yet everything this type of saying that they're doing You're taking your shirt on right now. Like, you know, can we like, Can you see that these things aren't aligning? And maybe you're not this type? And and can you see how that's really hurtful for the people of this type, because we all have our strategies and our ways of being and, and we're very identified for the most part with those things. But I just like, lost it and just booted the person off the panel. And I was like, Ah, that's not my best moment. And my boss is here. And like, you know, if you when you disappoint Susan is like, the worst thing on earth, because she's so kind, and she's so loving, and she wants to have a conversation and really do the work with you. And I'm like, from my childhood, like, Can you just yell at me and tell me, I'm a horrible person, and not actually make me stay and have this really loving and tender hearted conversation? So it was not my best moment. And I can't say that I've had tons of those, but I've definitely had them. And I'm like, Whoa, that's not happening again.

Clay Tumey: 30:59

How long was it before there was a conversation with you directly to suggest maybe this is a strategy to try out next time? Like with with whoever else was there and saw that? Was it? Did they just kind of, did they just kind of leave you alone? Or let you figure it out? Or was it was there real time like intervention by anybody else to say, like, like, what you did was not okay, or whatever. By the way, I just want to just show appreciation for the fact that we're talking about some is probably not a very fun memory. And you're willingly sharing with us. So thank you, by the way. Yes, what it looked like, from that point forward once you essentially kicked them off the panel.

Dana Vitorelo: 31:39

Yeah, so I either that night, or the next day, Susan was like, ready to talk. Ever. I think she said it in a different way. But like she like knew that I knew that we needed to process and that and I and like literally when I say need, like I needed it. Like I was like, I don't know what happened. Like, I can usually keep my cool. I'm usually energized by when people get reactive. And just I completely lost myself in that moment. And I was able to have a repair, we it was an intensive, so I was able to have a repair with the student The next day, like I mean, it went, here's what I will say, for the most part, when I have done things, and I'm like, Fuck, I could have handled that better. As long as I have gone back for the repair. The relationship with the student has always been better for it. Like there's more trust there. They're like you're human, and you apologize. And like, you're not trying to pretend like you're perfect. I mean, I think I literally can't think of a time when I went for a repair with a student. And it didn't go well. And not like because of me but because my students are gracious and forgiving, and kind and, and I can also come with like humility, like, I did not deal with that well, and I want to apologize and I want to be emotionally responsible. And this is my piece and blah, blah, blah. So I'm not like justifying any of those things. But I think the thing that always amazes me is when I walk away from something and I'm like, Oh my god, I fucked that up so bad, I'm going to get fired. Which by the way happens every single class my first two or three years of teaching, I would walk out of the classroom bent over so anxious I could barely get to the car and I could barely breathe and I was like I'm gonna get fired. Something's I did something wrong and it's gonna get back to Susan and wreck and I'm gonna fucking get fired. It's a little better now I actually have to do something pretty bad. I think I'm gonna get fired, which is relative, right? But I will say that the rip there's something magical about going for repair with people.

Clay Tumey: 33:49

I I want to make jokes because I know your type. And you've already said it your Type Six. How much of that is is? Is that normal for Type Six,

Dana Vitorelo: 34:00

so I can't speak for all sixes but I can speak for myself and I can speak for Aaron because we've had many of these conversations. I mean, I but also Aaron and I are like the same person. We're both Six, five wing social dominance. So there's like a lot of alignment there. But yeah, I think it's like, pretty common with sixes like that's the NX, right? It's my vice like, literally gripping me by the heart. Like what does Russ say about the Type Six it's like the quaking heart, right and it's just like, oh my god, like this thing is going to kill me like and not only it's not going to be an easy death, like I'm going to get fired and I'm going to suffer and then I'm going to die and like I heard all these people's feelings it just is like this giant magnification of of something trivial or something that didn't even didn't even happen but like it could have happened which is so that worst case scenario mean all this like all the pieces of my type structure would just contract so hard after the minute I got out of the classroom and I honestly think it's because through grace A lot of the time when I'm in the classroom, the really like, fierce inner critic like committee that sixes have going on, like the door on that is locked. When I'm teaching, it's almost never kicking in. And then it beats my ass The minute I get out of the classroom, because it's like, Look, you just had none of me for three hours. And now we're compounding that.

Clay Tumey: 35:22

How long did it take when you first got into the Enneagram? And we're kind of leaving the conversation about guides, like on the side for a second, but I'm just curious, like, specifically for you. How long into your Enneagram experience early on? Did did you realize Yeah, I'm, I'm definitely a Type Six and what, in particular, not just talking about stuff like this, this might be less pleasant, but even like, the positive side of six, like How did you know? I'm totally Type Six.

Dana Vitorelo: 35:53

So this is why I love jail so much, and how I knew that I was committed. So I was like, 6565, and then I'd run to the books. And I'd be like, Fuck, I don't know. And even even at the training that I did, like, there were people that pulled me aside and they were like, we actually think you're an eight and we want to have an intervention, we actually think you're a five and we want to have an intervention, right? I'm a very like, alive, loud, eight, but then like, I also will be sitting in the corner just like watching everyone and freaking them out. Because I'm like, not talking and just intensely staring at them and watching,

Clay Tumey: 36:23

which is the fire.

Dana Vitorelo: 36:28

Right. And the I was on a panel in Elmwood, my that first round, and Susan was facilitating the panel, and there was only one Type Six in the room. And I was on the panel with him and everything that came out of his mouth. I was like, I could have said that verbatim and everything that I said, He's like, Nah, did you just read my mind? And I was like, Oh, this is it like solid, no questions asked. I am a Type Six. And then I it's easy for me to talk about kind of, you know, all the ways in which my type gets in the way. But you're right. I mean, I there's a lot of things that I love about being a sex, I was at a different Enneagram training and someone, I was working with two body types. And they were like, wow, you know, do you ever wish you were another type or another center of intelligence. And I was like, I was younger at the time. And I was like, it took me like 3030 something years to be okay with this type. I absolutely don't wish I was another type. Like, I'm finally starting to figure out how to navigate this territory. And like I've got it handled, the areas where it feels out of control, like I can deal with, I can't imagine now trying to shift and navigate some other whole territory. So I really do love being a sex. I mean, it's fun to talk about how like neurotic and crazy I am. But I love it.

Clay Tumey: 37:46

I'm just picking up the clock. And I know I said like a certain range of time. Are you good on time? Or do you have something? Okay, cool. Because I want to ask, I actually don't want to ask any specific question other than just like, generally, as a guide for TPP. or anytime these conversations come up with people asking you what you do, or this or the other? What is it that you just love about being an EPP? I don't want to put words in your mouth. You haven't you haven't overtly said that you love being an EPP guide. But I think I know you well enough to know that it's something you're kind of cool with, at the very least. But what what is it? What is it that, that you care so much about with with with all this work, whether even if it's not specifically people on the inside, but just in general, the work that you do the things that you care about? I don't know enough to ask the perfect question to get the perfect answer. So I kind of just want to know, like, why do you give a shit? Like, why do you care? Why are you here? Why are you doing this? Why all of that so many wise?

Dana Vitorelo: 38:49

Yeah. So I this is like my, probably my tight bias, just like I look at our organization. And I'm like, you know, everything is focused on our inherent goodness, because like, Susan's a one. I'm like wanting to get back to that goodness that exists in every one of us. And for me, it's like, I, for years, I had dreams where I could hear my own voice and I was telling myself to wake up, like and with such an urgency. And I really have a passion for to wake myself up and to help wake other people up. And I really think that that's a collective job and part of our organism, like, that's what our organization is doing. We're helping people to wake up to, and then like insert whatever it is, our inherent goodness, the way our personality gets in the way. You know, what our soul is, is calling for us to do that the next step in our healing. I mean, I just love being with people that want to wake up that want to have real conversations, people that are passionate about healing people that are passionate about being real like I cannot tolerate and probably to an unhealthy degree. Anything that I feel like is remotely superficial, I just can't tolerate it, it drives me crazy. And I want to crawl out of my skin. And the other thing that I love about really, the Enneagram EPP very specifically is community, we have an awesome, awesome community is incredible. And it's just really, really nourishing and really supportive. And I'm so proud to be a part of it.

Clay Tumey: 40:27

So the whole point of the podcast when we, when we first decided to do this, and actually it was we've talked about it for years. And then finally, this year, it was kind of like, spurred a little bit and just kind of, I won't say forced, but it was very much more, we'll do whatever it takes to make it happen. And it was, I love it, it's it's a lot of fun to do. The idea is to tell the story of EPP as we approach our 10th anniversary next April. So by then you'll have five years, that's more than halfway. And if you're four and a half now, then you'll be at five years then. And so you've been here for half of the time that it existed, basically show what's what's the TPP today, like compared to EPP of you know, half half a decade ago, when, when you came around what what are some things back then that maybe don't exist anymore, or things that didn't exist, then that they're normal now, and you can't imagine the peepee without them any any and it's totally wide open, whatever comes to mind is is what I'd like to hear about.

Dana Vitorelo: 41:32

The first thing that comes to mind, and I know I've talked to you about this before, and you always kind of set my head straight. It's like that longing for when we actually all fit around Rick and Susan's giant kitchen table, like everyone in the organization fit around that table. And now, I don't even know that everyone in the organization could fit in their house. And that is so cool in there. Also, as a part of me that's like, Oh, I long for when I get literally just kind of, you know, sit and hold hands with everyone at the table. And we could all be in, you know, one giant kind of hand holding group circle. But I think the other thing is, is that the support that we were talking about earlier that there are so many brilliant minds and hearts that are contributing to the project. And all of this amazing stuff is getting done. And we get to kind of just each one of us show up and do the things that we're really good at and the things that we really love. And then all these parts and pieces are fitting together to make this amazing community and also like amazing products and put product in quotes because I don't know another way to do it. But for our programs, and prisons, one key path to freedom GTP, including all the people that are taking them that are giving us feedback, so then we can make better iterations of it beyond. So I think the thing that I missed the most is how small we were. And the thing that I love the most is how big we're becoming like that it's both sides of it and holding the paradox of all of that, that don't many people are drawn to hook out for lack of a better word, like our vibe, the energy of the Enneagram Prison Project, which is really like love and holding and unconditional positive regard and acceptance. And the whole nother conversation you and I have had recently like we do the work together, like I love you enough to have the hard conversation and to stay. And for me that six with a five wing All I want is safety. And that to me is one of the things that makes our community so safe is that we love each other enough to stay to have the hard conversation or the the how wonderful someone is to but I care more about are you going to stay and have the hard conversation with me.

Clay Tumey: 43:42

It's a phrase that's been coming up lately, even aside from MPP is just this idea of how we love each other and how people can love one another and it's sometimes it's like actually even saw I saw a T shirt on an airplane yesterday that a girl was wearing that said most of these things and what I what I've been thinking about is like sometimes Love is like, Hey, you want to hang out? Sometimes love is I'm thinking about you, I care about you, you know, I'm sad with you. If it's you know, condolences or whatever and sometimes love is Hey, you want to hang out and have dinner and come over what but then it's also sometimes Love is a you're fucking up. Like what you're doing right now is detrimental not only to you, but the people around you that you care about. And just in case you don't know that I'm telling you. And love is not always like this lovey dovey, happy experience. I mean, it can be it can ultimately lead to that. But sometimes it starts like, sometimes love starts with pain. Or at least or hell just like the class, we start with aces. You just get right there and then and then and then go forward from that. So like I think the I love the idea that love is not just this flowers and sunshine thing that we and we draw hearts on you know paper and hug each other and all that stuff like it's part of it, but it's not It's not all it's not all of it. So it doesn't feel like it's been 45 minutes, but it's definitely been 45 minutes that we've been yapping here. So thanks for being with you. It's fun. It's one of my favorite things to do. And it's easy. It's what I'm skilled at, I can just yap forever. Any final parting shots or thoughts or anything that you would that you would want to share with anybody who's either considering getting into this work or even they already know a lot about the Enneagram and they think they're thinkin about being a guide or or anything like that Any? Any additional thoughts you want to wan to share before we wrap it up? Yeah,

Dana Vitorelo: 45:37

would say the journey is hard, but it's worth it. No, but no, but that's a total sex thing. Journey is hard. And it's worth it. There's there's absolutely an and I have no idea who I would be without all the years of working with Encarta, the those who are incarcerated and then really bringing deep into my life and into my heart, the ambassador's you sue Vic clay Rene, Dustin, Chuck. I mean, I know I'm leaving some out Marty at Troy, Luke, I don't want to leave anyone out. Edmonds, whom I'm leaving out.

Clay Tumey: 46:12

I'm not gonna tell you

Dana Vitorelo: 46:13

damn it, whoever I left out, I'm sorry. But my point is, is that there is no way that I could be the person I am today without having my heart cracked open by the ambassador. So even if someone is just like wanting to dip the toe in the community, but doesn't want to spend time on the inside? Absolutely. Come in, meet our ambassadors and let your heart be opened. So I will just one more quick thing. I was thinking of this the other day. And as we're talking about love, it popped into my head. So I kind of want to tell the story. But I remember so Vic and Alex and I did the training together for it's like something like 21 days if the narrative and very soon after that, he went to Denmark, with you. And Susan, and Rick. And I remember he landed and he called me and we were talking really quickly. And then he ended the call. And he's like, I love you. And I was like, What? And then I was like, Wait, do I totally love this dude, too. Like, he's a really good friend. And, and in that moment, like, everything shifted for me. And I really try now to express my love instead of hold it back. Like I was like, that feels good, like that safe, like open up close. But this this piece of how much we love each other in the organization. And also, again, to your point that sometimes love is hard. Absolutely. But it is it is real. And come in, you're invited.

Clay Tumey: 47:57

So like we start at the very beginning of you just tell us, tell us introduce your damn selves. Tell us who you are and what you do with with, with eppp and anything else that you think might be relevant to someone listening to the podcast.

Camilla Norman Field: 48:12

All right, introduce my damn self. Well, let's start with that. So it's actually funny because I'm teaching again now in September, and we're bringing onboard some apprentices who just finished our guy training program. And I've been having to introduce myself a number of times, and the reality is Clay Tumey is that you are part of my origin story. But I'll start with my name. So my name is Camila Norman field. I am a guide with Enneagram Prison Project and was part of the second then called teacher training program now called guide training program, joining up January 2018, and then starting to teach on the inside that April. So I've been teaching for a little over three years now three and a half years ish. And I live in San Francisco. So I have had the privilege of teaching in San Quentin, with Suzanne and Dana and Erin. And that's the place where we get to have a lot of amazing visitors who become lifelong EPP peers, and also teaching men and women in San Mateo and Santa Clara counties to add Maple Street and Elmwood. So that's a bit about the eppp. But beyond that, I am a mother. We got two awesome boys who are adolescent now and in their own process of forming an ego to hopefully shake it up when they're when they're in their 20s and 30s and beyond. And a lovely husband with whom I am about to celebrate 20 years of marriage which is mind and heart boggling. But good. You know a lot of that work happens in those primary relationships and we've certainly Done our work and doing our work. And but I was thinking about you, obviously, because I knew we were going to be speaking today. And you know, you and I like to joke around, you know, I wouldn't be here if it weren't for you, which is Yeah, that's true.

Clay Tumey: 50:15

It's a funny way to say the truth. But yeah.

Camilla Norman Field: 50:18

I was like, You're like my radioactive spider, you know, you were the shock point, you were the one who rolled in you and I were taking classes with the reseau, Hudson Institute, part of their Enneagram Training Institute. And I think you and I just, you know, you roll into those places, and you sort of glance around the room and kind of check out who's who, and get a sense of like, I have a good feeling about this person. And also, to be fair, I've always had the experience to have like, I don't know about this person. And you know, that's the person I fall in love with the most by the end of the week, because, you know, what do I know?

Clay Tumey: 50:55

Was that which one of those was I don't know about this guy?

Unknown: 50:58

I was trying to No, no, you wouldn't you were actually honestly, to be perfectly honest. I don't remember. Yeah. But I do remember that you rolled in with an EPP t shirt. And prior to let me pull back. So 11 years ago now for me, I guess. 2010? Yeah, 2010, I went back to school to become a coach. And that's when I first learned about the Enneagram. Because we had to buy that blue book. That was one of the Enneagram book, and we had to come into class first day and share our type. And that was just, it was a word I didn't know I can hardly pronounce. But sure enough, you know, did some test taking did some reading and started reading about the Type Two and was just floored with? Where was I gonna go with that with a new venture as west to Oh, so before that, before, during the coaching school, I've been working in drug policy reform. So the area of criminal justice reform and drug policy reform was a big part of my life and experience. And I've had some close people in my life experience incarceration. And then you came in, and I have just pulled you close and said, Tell me more. And as you were telling me your story, and tell me about eppp it just deep inside, I thought this is my future.

Clay Tumey: 52:16

This is so funny. To me. The I was I was I was terrified to go into a lot of those classes as like an EPP ambassador, mostly because, like at that point, it wasn't normal to have like prison. People in those classes like nowadays, it's just like, if a guy goes in or gal goes into a class and you say I'm an APB, cool, you know about those guys, like most of time that people love you before you even get there sometimes if they know you're coming. I was I was like, the first one to go into class without it was I nobody went before it before that. And it was like, Alright, I'm gonna just like boldly and proudly proclaim, like, who I am and where I'm from, but I was also kind of terrified, because you don't really know like, what people are gonna feel and they're all nice. So they're not going to like just outright be like, Hey, man, screw this guy. So, you know, a lot of it is like trying to figure out, do they really accept me? Do they really? Do they think things that they're not saying or whatever. So I was I was kind of like, you know, like, just scared of the whole thing. And as it turns out, it's actually quite a pleasant experience. And people really, especially nowadays, down the road a little bit, we're we've got some, we've got a little bit of a reputation, I hope, in a good way to where people just automatically accept you sometimes. And, and it was probably like that before, but I didn't know that. So

Unknown: 53:48

I think you bring up something that's really interesting, actually. Because, you know, prior to going back to school for coaching, I mean, I was not a person who rolled into the Self Help section of the bookstore. Like if I was going to read, I wanted to read about, like, Lord of the Rings, or some fantasy, some fiction, something that had nothing to do with real life because, you know, you're paying attention, real life is pretty intense. And so, we went to new ventures with what's the thing called meditation with the thing called the Enneagram, you know, learning all about this process of self actualizing developing presence, you know, all this new terminology. And I live in San Francisco in California, and it was still new terrain for me. And when I started doing any of these classes, courses, retreats, you know, I was struck by how I was struck by the lack of diversity, you know, pick an issue, gender, race, socio economic geography certain to a certain degree and, and while those courses were all meaningful, and important, and regulatory, it was missing a key ingredient. And I really appreciate and applaud EPP's approach. Taking from when twist, you know the soul of money. And this consideration of what is sufficiency versus scarcity? You know, sometimes we hear about like abundance versus scarcity. But this idea of like, what is enough? That really then push us to look at how we were offering our courses? And what do we charge? Do we charge? we absolutely want to value our guides, faculty, staff, the amazing people who do this, do this work, how to do in a way so that we really stand by this idea that the Enneagram are just personal development in general, is for everyone. Yeah. Until I think, you know, you've been the first one in and now this shift. And hopefully it's contagious right to other organizations that it will there'll be some osmosis. But more and more seeing diversity? I mean, I think our nine presidents one key class starting, in a matter of a couple of weeks, has about 220 people signed up something like that, and 25 countries represented. And that's just one measure. Yeah, awesome.

Clay Tumey: 56:04

You mentioned something that is the, you know, the business model of it, or if you want to call it that, or whatever, how we charge How much do we charge? This is one of my favorite things about how eppp does pricing and just in general, how we how we do business. So for the for the uninformed hearing all this for the first time. If I want to get involved in one of these classes, how much do I pay?

Camilla Norman Field: 56:30

Well, Clay, let me tell you, the good news is, is that it's up to you. You know, the reality is, is that we, when we say it's donation space, we mean that and it's not just you know, fill out 50 bucks, 100 bucks, 250 500, you know, pick one of these buckets, it's really check with yourself, dig in deep. Think about what your resources are, whether that's time or money or other ways to give back to organization to eppp to your community. And, and give of yourself in a way that reflects your sense of the work that you're doing, as well as the community that you're supporting, you know, as a Type Two, a big word for me is reciprocity. Because when I'm not healthy, I'm giving, giving, giving, giving, giving, filling myself with resentment, not getting a whole lot back and calling it a good day. But when I'm really healthy, like I experienced reciprocity, there's no transactional giving, there's no giving to getting it's just, we're all giving as we have capacity we're receiving as there is need. And seeing that comes to life in our business model of how we how we offer our programming our virtual programming, to everyone in the world who's got an internet connection. And certainly even how we do business business. It's not quite the word how we how we bring our work to men and women and folks in custody as well. Certainly, we get grants from sometimes, you know, local counties and governments but also generosity of donors and corporations and foundations and all that, but it works. Yeah, I mean, it works we get we get paid our hourly rate, we have our budget, and then we and then we open up and invite people to commune with us and connect with us and, and through a sense of belonging have a real feeling of shared responsibility that that really translates into this system working It's amazing.

Clay Tumey: 58:28

In the in the post COVID times, you know, there's a lot of zoom, everything is virtual, not everything, but practically everything is virtual. But you you've been a guide since before all that was thing like you, you've been around pre COVID and so you've actually been into the prisons in the jails, and you've you've done this stuff like face to face. I I'm kind of curious about your first days, and one of one of my favorite topics of discussion is talking with former inmates about their first days out. But as a guide, I'm curious about your your first experience on the inside, even if it wasn't as a guide, even just as a visitor or whatever. What are some things that you experienced? going in? Yeah, to the prisons for the first time or jealousy?

Unknown: 59:14

Yeah, it's a good question. And I think at this point, if I had to count I'd probably been a part of like, some 20 different classes on the inside before COVID so and even now we're able to do zoom with one institution that is newly enough constructed to have those bells and whistles which is fantastic. Career time and so yeah, so back to like meeting you and seeing your T shirt and figuring all that out. I thought no, I this this just makes sense. And this is just resonating deeply. But then I put it down because as you know that process of getting certified is no joke. And you know the Type Five and talking to Type Five like the amount of essays like oh my lord, that's why I didn't go to graduate school because I was like, I never want to write an essay again. So I thought okay, I'm gonna put I'm not gonna do my usual thing, which is like sign up immediately and spread myself too thin, I'm going to just chill and when I'm done with the certification, and I'm going to figure out this EPP thing, but I got an email from James Flaherty who is the founder of new ventures West, the coaching school that I attended. And he emailed me and Susan and said, I don't know why. But somehow, I just know that you two need to know each other. So there was the universe doing her thing. Yeah. And so I reached out to Susan said, hey, I've got a little bit of time here. But she and I had this like, I don't know, incredible two hour conversation where we covered every subject under the sun and just the love affair began. And, as it as it does with Susan, as there's a common thread and theme of this podcast, but I she invited me to San Quentin for the first time. So it was probably July 2017 that I first went in, and, I mean, there's institutions and then there's San Quentin, which is an interesting place because it's so I mean, as I know, it, it's it was being built by their prisoners who were living on a boat in the bay during the gold rush. So it's old and the new new newer institutions are built in rural areas create economy and to bolster voting and all sorts of nonsense but then Quinn's interesting because it has it's in the middle of San Francisco basically it's in the Bay Area it's it's nearby a lot of intellectual capital and

Clay Tumey: 1:01:29

certainly on the water is right there on the water it is

Camilla Norman Field: 1:01:32

its prime real estate. I mean, I'm it's just beautiful. Not that, you know, those who are currently living there residing there, get a real Look at the view. But yeah, and it's but it's like the point of kind of setting up that scene, you're talking about San Quentin, it's like when you go in, it's like that really traditional, it almost looks like turrets, this old stone building and you come in and it has that big metal bar door that claims right, so coming in, you're sort of walking down this big long Park, you're not walking down, walking into water, and it's beautiful. And you're thinking like how can this this place that is just holding so much sorrow and sadness and trauma and pain. Be right next to this beautiful water and the sun and you know, just it's very odd. You check in you do your thing. You go to clang, clang holding up your ID and I remember this feeling of sort of heart pounding because my direct experience with institutions was zero other than you know, media and TV and all sorts of nonsense that portrays the humans there is not human. And and then you walk through this sort of the sally port Can you come through, again, beautiful, like the main plaza, because they have they've done this, they obviously have certain individuals there, do a great job and landscaping but then you walk down the ramp into the yard and again, like the yard, and being a woman and going down and it was just, honestly clay. It just it felt to me safer than sometimes when I'm walking down Fillmore street when it's dusk or dark and and obviously, I was with Susan who moved through that place with such ease and was given such deference and respect. And the you know, the minor interactions along the way, Hey, how you doing tonight, good to see you. Thanks for come in. And then to walk into the space the arc and be a part of that class and you don't go to watch the class. You go to be in a class. And I don't know, for me, it was this balance between this is what I meant to be doing. As well as I wanted to sweep everybody in my bag and bring them all home with me and protect them because it was just that sharp, like that sharp, sharp, sharp recognition realization that nobody's here at a choice. Everybody is here out of pain, that they didn't get the help that they needed way back when

Clay Tumey: 1:04:09

it's a perspective that I wish more people had I wish I had that before I went to prison because I think our attitude towards incarceration towards prison towards how we deal with crime, I refuse to say corrections without laughing or rolling my eyes because it's not a lot of corrections. But I think few people you know, when I when I do when I go and do like corporate speaking of things like with banks, or whatever. I always start with the slide of this is what a future criminal looks like. And I show a picture, actually, I think you even remarked about this picture earlier where I'm it's I'm like four years old, little blond headed kid and a sweater vest. And like, it's kind of like it's, you know, it's me, so maybe I'm biased, but it's like this adorable little child. Like this is what a future criminal looks like. And the point being, like nobody just grows up bad like you can have bad circumstances you can have bad things happen to you. But at the core of us all, I think we're good. And I don't think the intent is to just switch into being a bad person. So when you look at prisons, and it's really easy to see, oh, this guy, he's a murderer. He's a, he's a, He's a thief. He's a, you know, he's a violent person. It's, it's easy to do that. But I don't think I don't think it's reality. I don't and I don't think it's accurate, either. And that's not just coming from, you know, like this compassion or sympathy or anything else that I have. I mean, there's there is that, but the reality is, it's just not accurate to say, hey, this guy's a bad guy. Again, I mean, did bad things and all that stuff. But at the core of us, were good people who just got sideways at some point. And the reason that we got sideways is specific to us individually. And then you have this giant clump of people in prison, who were all there together, because they all got sideways, and they're in their own little world. And I don't think a lot of people immediately see it the way that you just explained it, or, you know, as seeing people who are there as a result of pain, or whatever.

Camilla Norman Field: 1:06:06

Yeah. Yeah, it's interesting. I mean, I am hearing that piece on sideways. And it's true. And I just, I think it's important to, to underscore that the sideways piece, often happening to you, when you're a child, when you have no agency, when you're not developed enough to understand much of anything, and and the place typically children are where they don't get something and something negative, or, or bad or traumatic is happening is, what did I do wrong? What could I have done differently, maybe I should be quieter, smarter, or faster, or better, what you know, stronger, whatever it might be. But it's also we had to mention the fact and this is, you know, my history and drug policy reform. The reason I got into that is one of my best friends from high school, African American guy from Brooklyn, New York, you know, got caught up in a drug charge that had me 14 years in federal prison. And he was one of the very few precious commutations issued by President George Bush, younger, and so ended up serving eight and a half of that. But, you know, for our viewers who can't see me, I am blond haired, blue eyed, I grew up outside of New York and Connecticut, and the war on drugs or drug policy was not something I had to consider at all, in my experience, and then to see one of my closest friends godfather to my older child have to experience this. This racism, like this profound racism, of our criminal injustice system, really opened up my eyes. And so also this piece of looking at Mass Incarceration as an as an extension of Jim Crow, which was an extension of slavery, you know, you have to look at our history to understand that there are then also many people in there wrongly, on trumped up charges, you know, who don't speak the language, who aren't the right color, you know, don't come from the right zip code. I mean, even today, I was reading about a man who is incarcerated, released, you know, thought fires for like, that's a big thing. And especially in the West, right is like, we have incarcerated men, and I'm not sure about women, but I know for sure we have fire camp, and some of our men's prisons, you know, fought fires, who was being deported to Vietnam, a country where he has never set foot, it's like, there's just there's this whole other piece to about who's in there. And once you start paying attention, you realize that it's absolutely horrifying.

Clay Tumey: 1:08:33

So when you're when you're serving this population, and you know, all this, and this is just the way it is, so to speak, as some might say. But how much of that influence comes in when you're teaching as I mean, do you? Are you allowed to, like just outright say these opinions as, as a volunteer on the inside? Or do you have to kind of keep all that in a How are what are the rules like as a teacher, or as a guide, as we as we call them with CPP? What's it like as a volunteer going up going in? And having these having these thoughts? what's what's the what's that? Like?

Camilla Norman Field: 1:09:13

Yeah, it's a really good question. And it really depends. I mean, first and foremost, none of us are going to say or do anything that's going to jeopardize the program. Right? So that's always at the forefront. And you know, the background that I've given you around meeting you and experience with the Enneagram. And then also with my my friend, john forte, who is incarcerated and his experience I do we we've been parts of those and elements of those on day one when I'm introducing myself, because I'm also registering the fact that and this is back to your question around first time in, you know, coming into the classroom for the first time or even walking across the yard, this sense of getting this sort of unasked question, but it's very much in the energetic field. Like why are you here? You could be anywhere. Why are you choosing to come here and scanning for bullshit? Right scanning for you're here to make yourself feel better. You're here the looky loo you're here. So, you know, I try to share my story authentically of why I'm here. And it's, it's, you know, it's a bit of the Enneagram. It's a bit of my direct experience to my friend, john. But in my experience with our policy reform, this is the good fortune of having people along the way, open up my eyes to what's true, right? what's what's the reality of our country, as wonderful as it is, the areas in which we have much room to improve. So I do share enough so that I can explain why I'm there and start to help build and create a container where everyone feels safe to do the work. And it's funny, quite, you know, each class is different. Sometimes it's day one, maybe perhaps some people in there taking the class before and they're creating the safe space. We have those sort of non official internal ambassadors, and sometimes you're coming in fresh, I think at this one story. Teaching inside where I was, it was a men's class, there's by 15 men coming in, and one gentleman in particular, like very big, just big human being, and he came in talking about being in the shoe solitary housing unit, you know, being in the hole and Pelican Bay, and he needed me to know that he was tough. And he was no joke. And but he was there. I mean, you know, there in Bahrain, very few circumstances or some some programs where like, there's a mandate, but like, you have also chosen to come into this classroom, and maybe you're there because you just need a change of view for two, three hours, you're well, that's fine. We know we're going to get you at some point. So whoever brought you in there. And so and I'm just registering this gentleman, and he's, you know, coming in, and then I start teaching the class and do my introduction. And pretty quickly, the two gentlemen sitting there, one start speaking Spanish, the other and saying, you know, more or less, I don't quite understand what she's saying, she's speaking a little too fast for me. I'm not sure I can see the class.

Clay Tumey: 1:12:19

You speak Spanish, by the way. Okay.

Camilla Norman Field: 1:12:23

Actually, born in Spain, my mother was a foreign language teacher, I was very lucky to live in an environment where we were instructed, I had a Type Three mom, who was like, you will learn all the other languages and not be those Americans who think that America is the only country in the world. And so all my friends were listening to like, pop music. I was, you know, the news in French. Anyway, so I so I paused the class, and I turned my attention to this gentleman, and I say in Spanish, you know, I'm very sorry. Yes, unfortunately, right now, we only have English, English programming, we're working on translating materials, like one day, you know, if your buddies willing to help you out, you're welcome to stay, but like I get it, you know, I and I'm not going to be able to translate live and blah, blah, blah. And there's other guys sitting right next to me goes down, I thought you were just a white woman. So I looked at him and I said, I am like, I am a white woman. And I'm also a whole lot more. And I'm trusting and I can't wait to find out who you all are, and what more there is to know about you. And you know, the big guy kind of came in just like rough and tumble just he just sort of relax a little bit. And then and then sure enough, he was like the greatest champion by the end of that class. And just it was just, it's just Each class has its own little money start anecdote, but

Clay Tumey: 1:13:41

why don't you teach him to teach in Spanish? I mean, if you if you're fluent in the language, I mean, maybe that maybe the materials are still in English or whatever. But what would be what's what's keeping you from just doing like, a Spanish class?

Camilla Norman Field: 1:13:53

You know, I it's a really good question. I would need to brush up on my personal development Spanish. You know, it's a it's a different vocabulary. But yeah, I mean, I think that's something that we're looking at, because certainly here in California and other states, you know, many other populous states with significant incarcerated populations, and I certainly need so Texas, New York, Florida, I mean, now it's more than ever, right? Like a future growing part of our overall population. And unfortunately, no surprise, a growing part of our incarcerated population too. So another episode

Clay Tumey: 1:14:29

Yeah, we can do it. We'll do a whole episode in Spanish. There you go. You said movie in alright. And don't it No, I can't I don't know Spanish to move on. But if you Alright, so you said you said a sentence earlier as though it was just a normal thing to say. And I think if somebody's never been locked up or known anybody who has a they would have thought that this was madness, but use you were talking about walking and I want you to explain why it's not madness. You're talking about walking through the yard. And being, you know, a woman on a male prison yard and in describing all that you said that, that you feel safer there than then if you were out in the free world walking down Fillmore street, and I think it's a good chance to just detail exactly what it's like on the inside to explain that, because it sounds crazy to say it that way. But it's absolutely true. And I want to know why.

Camilla Norman Field: 1:15:27

Yeah, I mean, look, some piece of it is that there are a plethora, a number of corrections officers who have eyes on, you know, here, there and everywhere. So that's part of it. But I think more than that, is, in my experience, which is not insignificant, but also limited. I've only been in three institutions. And they're, you know, they're all institutions who have agreed to have us come in and program there. So you got to kind of see like, the self fulfilling piece here, and what kind of program officer corrections officer are willing to support this work, which is, which is amazing. And, and I also think there is this piece that I've experienced many, many, many times of just this mix of gratitude, and a bit of sort of shock or surprise, you know, and I've heard a version of this sentence many times, you could be anywhere, why are you here? So I have experienced, it's just beautiful, actually played like that, that moment of human connection of, why are you here, it's like one, I'm actually here for you. And I'm also here for me in the sense that, when I'm inviting you to do this work, I have to do my own downward to because there's no way I can ask you to show up if I'm not showing up. I mean, I often describe my time when I'm a guide insiders, I'm not a religious person, but to me, it's like a sort of church. Because I need to be present, I need to be accountable, I need to show up, and I don't care where you are, if you've got two or more people efforting in that direction. It's magical. So I think a lot of the safety piece is around the fact that you know, the men and women who are unfortunately on the inside are really grateful when someone decides to spend any amount of their time in support and concern in love for their welfare.

Clay Tumey: 1:17:29

So the first classes that you taught you go and teach on your own right or do usually go out to the person.

Camilla Norman Field: 1:17:38

It's really wonderful because now as our guide population is growing, we have instituted co guiding that in the beginning part of the second group and there was I think eight or nine of us and I was really only one of the one the only person there that was already in the barrier where we already had institutions you know, available in programming Minnesota was the other place that we were at and Suzanne and Phil you know were with me in that course and they went off to Shakopee prison there but pretty quickly, I was doing an apprenticeship with Susan she and I were co guiding or sorry, she was guiding I was soaking up every ounce of Susan that I could in San Mateo doing my apprenticeship just you know that and then this is not an uncommon thing as well being like I wait I was like how am I going to do this and her way and then recognizing and she's so gracious with this of creating space for this is how I do this curriculum and you got to find your voice in your way and certainly having come out of the guy training program this summer with some 50 odd guides who are now starting to apprentice it's just so true and amazing that this work can come to life in so many different personalities and types and but pretty quickly I think I hadn't like I was just finishing up my apprenticeship and and Susan said so you you like you're ready to go in you know, and so I got like trial by fire. And then we this beautiful guide book right now beautiful, gorgeous, stunning Robin Grant massive shout out Susanne Oh my god, all the work and just amazing. I have zero to do with any of that. This the happy beneficiary. And so I was off at Elmwood, which is a correctional facility, aha Correctional Institution in in Santa Clara County. And I was going to teach the women's side Dana Vitorelo, one of our amazing core seasoned primary guides was was gracious enough to meet me there and kind of help orient me and immediately there's like the CEOs like she's not in the list or she's not supposed to be in this, you know, in our, our core values is flexibility and I think that's when the hashtag flexibility was coined because, and I so anyway, so far Let me figure out where I am asking people, hey, I think I'm supposed to be teaching, there's m, this m that M three and M five. And I find my way into the room and realize that I'm teaching two classes back to back both protective custody. And for our listeners who may not know what that is like, these are these are those who are not in GP or general population for a variety of reasons. It might be the nature of their crime, it might be because their so called snitches and the protection or, you know, lots of reasons, yeah. But the second class was a group of women who were all affiliated with Noor taneous gang, which is a gang sort of originated out of Mexico. And, you know, you hear the word gang and all this and they were but they were just family, right? Like they were all their tears, were raising her kids, and they all grew up together. And but I had a guidebook was basically eight pages, you know, a single sheet for every, every module that we were teaching, we have an eight module course that we teach from and I remember calling Sue Lambert, who's an ambassador, a guide to the new ventures, West coach, she and I run the coaching program at UTP. Together, she's, she's amazing. And I called her and I was kind of freaking out, like, I don't know how to do this, I just don't want to print it. Oh, my Sue, how

Clay Tumey: 1:21:17

are we going in by yourself? Right?

Camilla Norman Field: 1:21:19

Going in by myself. And I never been to that institution before I could never been there at all. And each one of them is they're all radically different, radically different. And she said, Listen, 95% of this, or whatever it was 9090 95% She goes, it's just that you're there. And you're present. And you'll figure it out. And you'll go to the you know, 10 bullet points of our guide, a packet. And, and she was so right. And I learned a ton cutting my teeth solo. I mean, the lockdowns and the CEOs who were pro and who were anti and the women and the nature of where they were coming from and where they're trying to get to. And I was intense. I came home wiped out every Wednesday, but yeah, it was it was an intense and amazing experience. And I kept coming back.

Clay Tumey: 1:22:11

Yeah, you survived it, and then went back for more. So you talk about CEOs, I've actually never even thought about this CEOs, which is the correctional officers, the jailers, the people who work on the inside there. And some are pro and some are anti. And I'm actually, I don't think I've ever thought about this before. But I mean, I guess it's, I guess some of the guards, they're just not in favor of what we're doing. I mean, I don't even know. Is that, is that true? Is that what you mean by pro?

Camilla Norman Field: 1:22:39

Yeah, it's true. I mean, there's a wide range, right? Like nothing as we're learning in 2021, nothing is binary, and nothing is absolute. And the law of three tells us that many times over. But sometimes it's you know, it's a it's a pain for me to have to move. You know, our residents from this place to that place. It's a security risk. We've got some new people coming in, who are you know, maybe detoxing and in the state. I this one situation where there was, I mean, Elmwood in particular, largely because of staffing issues, at times would have sometimes lockdowns and, you know, it just would be tricky, because you'd sort of be teaching a class and then it would pause, and it would stop and, and the CEOs could really work with you to try to keep the class moving and going. And other times. And I and I, it's, I'm sort of hesitant to say anything, because I've never been in their position dealing with the population from their perspective. And again, remembering that they're often understaffed and trying to manage a whole lot. But sometimes it was tricky, but that was less often my experience, most often, it was interesting clay, I started to see that the ones who saw us coming in and doing the work, there was actually fewer issues in the dorm, you know, or in the pod, whatever the language was per institution. They saw the women or the men or what have you, when we were teaching behave better because they were doing this work together. You know, I had one class where it absolutely erupted in massive reactivity, massive reactivity where it finally I was like, ladies, you know, come on, hey, students, let's go like copying the Finally I had sort of almost like get up on my chair and shout, to get everyone to settle down. And there was just a lot going down, and I sort of looked around the room like, hey, do you see what the Type Seven are doing the Type Eight and the Type Nine? And can we like, forget the book, forget the curriculum, can we just see live, what we're up to? And we sort of everyone kind of settled down enough for it to continue to do his work and have this conversation and I said to one woman, you happen to be a Type Eight I said, Can you bring this back to the dorm what's going to happen? She's our baby put in solitary. I'll be written up. I said, Okay, so you see that you do you see that? You have a choice here? Yeah. You know, and she was like, Well, you know, and I said, it's up to you, like you got to the Type Eight, right? Type Eight nines and ones love that agency and that sovereignty. And I said, or you could take some deep breaths, and we could try to come down here and not bring it into the dorms. And when they came back the next week, they'd share that they were able to pull it together and I and that the week or two later, the CEO had mentioned, like, I'm seeing the difference in this in this group. Like they're just, it's just they're calmer, things are just smoother, things are easier. So they started to really turn around and see that their work was benefiting everyone, including their ability to do their jobs.

Clay Tumey: 1:25:37

A quick pause just to check on time. Are we still good? Are you getting close to needing to wrap it up? A minute or so?

Camilla Norman Field: 1:25:45

Yeah, I don't have to be a mom for for a minute. So okay, cool. I'm having way too much fun talking to you. Clay. We never get to talk often enough. And when we do, it's always a pleasure.

Clay Tumey: 1:25:53

It's rare. I mean, I'm reachable. I'm always here. I don't have a mom not always traveling around and being busy. But I gotcha friend. Yeah. True. Fair enough. Fair enough to Shay. So rejection type, so we know we all have her vibe. Yeah. Well, that's I mean, it's, it's not my fault. It's everybody else's right. For sure. Have you ever had I was you mentioned Dana, I actually talked to her earlier today. And she was she was a RF mom Dana has sometimes. And she was she shared a story. And I won't repeat it. I'll just I know it'll be on the episode. But you may have already heard about it before, where things? What's the nice way to say this didn't go as well as it could have for she. It was a learning experience for her and how she handled a moment in one of her panels. And I kind of I wouldn't have thought to go there or to ask her about that. Because it just kind of naturally came up. But now that I've had that conversation with her and talking with you and other guide, I'm curious. Have you ever had an experience where after the fact it was like, well, I fucked that up? and wish I could have that one over? Or has it been mostly like smooth sailing?

Camilla Norman Field: 1:27:09

Oh, god, no, no, no, I mean, to be human is to err. So there's definitely moments. You know, it's, it's like, this is where our type comes in. Right? Because we're not present that type stuff is very available, oodles of it Tori Now, whenever you need it. And so I think for me, it's hard. I'm trying to think of a specific one. I mean, there's been very, there's been moments for sure. Like, more than I probably like to admit where I've, I've wanted to kind of overextend myself and like, over connect with someone, and, and not and actually, you know, it's interesting. Now that you were talking about Dana, the one that just pops into my mind right now is, when I've been in San Quentin, the first time I'd done some, we did some dyad some pairing up work, and I got paired with one of the students and, and the next. And there was a time where I was subbing and came in and talked with Dana and this person was coming up for parole, and I was fully connecting with him and talking with him and taking up time and energy speaking with him about that experience. And we were really connecting and, and it all felt good and lovely. Because my Type Two stuff was just getting, you know, super jazzed about that kind of Oh, we're just in this and best friends and connecting. Amazing and love, love, love. and rightfully so the next time Dana and I met each other met up and we were teaching somewhere else. I can't remember she was coming out of class I was coming in, she said, Listen, I need to talk to you about something. And she, you know, pointed out that I had not only sort of jeopardize myself or the program, but also the student because of overfamiliarity is a reason where someone can get moved like that, and get kicked out of programs and get moved out of prisons and can happen in an instant. And it can just take somebody else saying, Oh, yeah, I saw the two of them getting all cozy, and it can be totally innocuous. But then matter, yeah, it just doesn't matter. Right. So that's sort of a good example, particularly, it's a Type Two and, and luckily, you know, doing the work that we are asked to do that we all hopefully get to do and need to do is been able to receive Dana's you know, come up, and yeah, Christina Type Six was very directly It was like, you know, sort of like my wounds for a day or two. And then I was like, actually, I really appreciated that she was able to bring that to my attention,

Clay Tumey: 1:29:30

this time, a bummer that you have to know that as that you have to keep that at the forefront of your mind as not just as a guide, but just as anybody going on the inside. I mean, even me as an ambassador, somebody who has been locked up, I gotta I gotta do the same thing and make sure that you follow the rules because they're definitely there and they do not give a shit if it's an accident or not. So, yeah, intention doesn't matter. Yeah, it doesn't at all and you To you, there's it's a weird thing to care. I mean, imagine being a doctor in a hospital, and you're caring for people, and you're healing them doing the doctor thing and all that, blah, blah, blah. And imagine being told, by the way, you're not allowed to care for these people emotionally, you can only do your only do your intellectual work only do your your doctor thing. But don't get emotionally attached to anything. That wouldn't work.

Camilla Norman Field: 1:30:23

No, although I think some doctors will try to do that. But yeah, successful. But no, it's a really good point. Because one of the epdp lines is like, I'm sorry, but you're gonna fall in love with your students, you know, and you do and you do, and can you have that sense of connection with them without, while also holding and maintaining boundaries that are really put in place to keep everybody safe. And, and that's one of the beautiful things about being able to work in our reconnecting program, which is our weekly support program for formerly incarcerated students, students, and look, if you've may have done just one class or maybe you've taken it 10 times or your spouse or special someone or parent or child of someone who's been incarcerated, it's just this weekly time where we, we get to continue to do our work together. And, and it's, it's really lovely to be able to then have a different kind of relationship when some of our students are become free people. And, and it's such a gift, you know, even this summer, when I got to see you at our wonderful potluck team, some of our students that I had never been able to do more than an extended fist bump to, on the inside to be able to give them a big hug. And, and yeah, just stand in their presence and in the free world was really special.

Clay Tumey: 1:31:43

people when they asked like, what's the one thing was the was the biggest takeaway from prison, and of all the things that I learned, of all the things that I know from that experience, and all the things that I appreciate about the experience, this, the simplest thing of all, is that I just learned the value of a hug. And when you talk about being, you know, fist bumping people in prison, and that's just the rules, man, that just is what it is, and they don't give a shit. You're not you. Just, that's, and it's honestly, it's, it's, it's, um, at least they let us do that. Like, there is something there are some units where you can't even have any kind of physical contact, whether it's a fist bump, or a pat on the back, or anything, but then you know, then come the picnics on the outside. And all rules are, are not out here with us. Because we're in the free world. I want to I want to know, what it's like. And you kind of alluded this, you know, to this, about seeing people at the picnic and stuff, but as a guide, as someone who goes in and you know, teaches this and does the work with the guys on the inside, and the girls on the inside and all that. How does it feel when you see someone get out, and they keep their head on straight, and they and they move forward in a direction of progress. And they're succeeding out here in life, and they're actually getting it done. And, you know, their, you know, their background, you know, what they came through, you know where they work, because you met him in prison, but they're out here doing things and getting it done in the real world? What's that feel like as a god?

Unknown: 1:33:19

Yeah, it's, it's, I really love that question. But I'm going to expand that a little bit. And just and keep it as as simple as what's it like to just reconnect with someone in the free world, because the reality is, is that some of our students do come out and, and they are more than ready, and they have this amazing support network. And they come to reconnecting and you know, and they just have a system in place that maybe was there before and you know, enough of a system that they can start to build a foundation and go from there. And then there's some students who I, you know, love just as much on the inside and they come out and maybe they've come to two reconnecting meetings, 12 months apart. And I it's sort of like, I feel the same about all of them, which is, I'm any evidence of them demonstrating that they know they belong in our community. Makes me feel so happy touches me, it moves me. And in fact, sometimes, you know, the ones who are just on the edge, and sort of dance around and pop in and scurry away and pop in again. When they when they pop back in. It's like Yes, yes, you know that no matter if you fell off the wagon, you know, maybe you actually got re incarcerated, whatever it might be like, you're you're not crushing it. But you still know that you are welcome, in our, in our community you belong. So it's all it's all wonderful. And I'm really grateful for the chance to meet people where they're at and just hold space for them and and You know, we Some people go from A to B others go A to Z, you know, we all have a different starting point ending point. But I am just really proud Chairman that sort of just like delighted and honored that I'm part of an organization that it's really Come as you are. Come as you are.

Clay Tumey: 1:35:22

This was kind of short notice. We talked about it briefly A while back, and then maybe it did literally yesterday or this week, I texted you and like, Hey, can we do that again, because I got deadlines. And so this was really short notice. So thank you. Thank you for making time and downloading a new app and making a new account. And all the technical stuff that goes with that. I enjoyed it. On a personal level. Yeah, I like I love talking with you. You're my you're my friend, and I enjoyed it. Any parting thoughts to share with with the listening public?

Camilla Norman Field: 1:35:57

Well, Clay you are my friend too. And I'm so glad you were my radioactive spider. And I guess a parting thought is my older son who's just headed back to school saying he wished he could take classes about the future because so many of them are about the past. And I gave him the old like, you know, those who don't know history are doomed to repeat it. But we talked a lot about chalk points we talked a lot about you can know the past you can prepare for the future. But then all of a sudden, someone enter stage left or stage right. And your life changes. And my parting thought is one you're doing an awesome job with this podcast, really grateful that you're lending your voice and your mind and your heart to this effort to amplify the work we're doing. To is so much fun to hang with you man. I miss you and three is thank you so much for being my shock point. And bringing me to this community I am forever grateful as are all the people in my life because me doing this work has only benefited the relationships all across my world. Thank you.

Clay Tumey: 1:37:01

And thank you. For more information about EPP please visit Enneagram Prison project.org. They appreciate your time and attention today. Stay tuned for future episodes, which you can expect on the 12th of every month as we continue to tell the story of Enneagram Prison Project