Enneagram Prison Project (EPP) Podcast

Episode 5: Russ Hudson

August 12, 2021 EPP and friends - hosted by Clay Tumey Season 1 Episode 5
Enneagram Prison Project (EPP) Podcast
Episode 5: Russ Hudson
Show Notes Transcript

Russ Hudson is one of the principal scholars and innovative thinkers in the Enneagram system’s development worldwide.  In this episode, Clay and Russ sit down to chat about a variety of topics including Euclidean geometry, poisoned gummy bears, and why the Enneagram is not a tic-tac-toe board.  Please visit RussHudson.com for information about teachings, new publications, and more.

Clay Tumey:

I just hit record and we start talking. And that sounds fine. And when we're done talking, and you can get as close to the mic as we have conversations before, and we're both talkers. So it's this is the thing, you know, and we know when to shut up, sometimes most of the time. Hi, my name is Clay Tumey, and I am an ambassador for the Enneagram Prison Project. As we approach our 10th anniversary, we thought it'd be fun to sit down and have a chat with all the people who've had a major impact along the way, with EPP. In today's episode, I sit down with world renowned Enneagram, teacher EPP community advisory board member, and my friend, Russ Hudson. Thank you for being here. Thank you. It's I did not know that you were going to be in Dallas. Until I don't know, two or three weeks ago, I was talking to Rick Olesek, Executive Director for the Enneagram Prison Project, and we're just chatting. He's my buddy, so we just chat. And he goes, you know, Russ, it's gonna be in Dallas in a few weeks. I was like, I'm gonna come to Dallas for like, what's it What's going on here? And so, I do the monthly podcast, right? We upload these on the 12th of every month. And I was like, man, how cool would it be if the timing worked out? For me to just because I'm, I'm not far from here. I only live 30 or so minutes from here, which in Dallas, everything. Dallas has nothing. Yeah. So it drives that far every day. I'm grateful that the scheduling worked out and also thankful to you for given given us some of your time day. So thank you for everything, I guess question. One is what brings you to Dallas? What are you here for?

Russ Hudson:

Well,

Clay Tumey:

is that even public information?

Russ Hudson:

I don't know. I can I can say no, I'm here. I'm doing a workshop with Suzanne Sybil. And her husband, Joseph. And we've been talking about doing something together for a long time. I met her years ago when I was teaching a workshop with Richard Rohr and was laughing and weeping, which we did in Albuquerque, New Mexico. But Suzanne was part of it. And she was running all the, you know, private small groups and exercises and things like that. So got to know her then. And we've been pals and you know, she said, Hey, why don't you come down in the workshop with me? I said, Sure. So here we are.

Clay Tumey:

Oh, and I saw on the website, it's going to be I don't remember the name of the church, but it's going to be at at a church, right?

Russ Hudson:

Yeah. And that Methodist Church right here, downtown.

Clay Tumey:

The funny part about that, to me is when and I don't know if you've ever heard me talk about it. And I'm sure this is not like an uncommon story, by the way. But my introduction to the inner Enneagram was the symbol that the very first thing before I heard the word before I heard the description of anything, I saw the symbol and I grew up in this in the Bible Belt, right? And the symbol looks funky.

Russ Hudson:

Yeah, it could scare people off. They don't know what it is.

Clay Tumey:

And so it's it's fun, slash funny slash or whatever the word there's a better word than fun or funny or ironic. But the entertaining thing to my soul is that now, you know, maybe it's not now maybe this has always existed in churches, and I just didn't know about it.

Russ Hudson:

Well, I think, you know, there have been a lot of Catholics. And later on some Episcopal folks who were into the Enneagram, largely because of Richard Rohr, and some other teachers talking that way. Some of the earliest transmission of it in the United States was through the Jesuits. That's how my own writing partner and teaching partner, Don Risa founded by he was a Jesuit at the top. So you know, it was going around in those circles. But I think I have to give Suzanna low credit because she wrote a book called The road back to you, when she wrote that with a missed name in cron. And that book has sold gangbusters amongst evangelical Christians, not Catholics, mostly mainstream Protestant, denomination people. And yeah, it's done really well. And I think it reflects something that I find very cool that there's a lot of Christians, especially young ones, who have what do I want to say they got a little fire in their soul, they want to do the real thing. They want to really see what the faith is about. They want to enjoy what shall I say the mystical aspects of Christianity and the A lot of them are frustrated with the a lot of the mainstream kind of organizations not really providing that. So there's a lot of young people and people in general who are looking for a deeper dive into what Christianity is about, and I think that's amazing, I think is wonderful.

Clay Tumey:

And it's not that they exist separately or in you know, a way that they do but it's not like they have to be exclusive. You know, they don't have you don't have to This or that it's not one of those kinds of things, which I was, I won't I won't put that on somebody else. I won't say that I was brought up to think that I was I would say that. That's where my head was, for a long time. Like, yeah, I grew up as a Christian. This is what I believe the Bible the answer,

Russ Hudson:

period. And that's how it works. I mean, I mean, I think that you start if you're actually studying, you know, Christianity, if you're actually reading scripture, if you're actually contemplating the words of Jesus, you start to come to a different sense of it. And you know, one thing Richard Rohr said to me privately when we were having dinner, and he said, for, for him, the only heresy is exclusion. Yeah. He said, the love of God, Christ's love is for everybody. And he tells you otherwise, is not really paying a lot of attention to the teachings of Christ. So, you know, I, philosophically I'm aligned with that. Why would God kick anybody out? Why would you know, people make their own hells and the different ways they do that's what we study in the Enneagram. How do you make hell for yourself? This is out. seemed like a good idea at the time. Yeah, right. But But I don't think that anybody's outside of the realm of grace. I'll put it that way.

Clay Tumey:

I'm gonna enjoy just a side note here. Nobody can see this because we're wearing our podcast clothes. Yeah, wearing a shirt that says Hades town on it.

Russ Hudson:

That's right. That's right. That's a that's a show. It's a Broadway show that I'm very fond of. And I'm friends with some of the cast members. And it's a wonderful show. It's it's about the Greek myth. Well, two Greek myths, one is of Hades, and percent funny, and the other is Orpheus and your deceased was to love stories, and done in. It's a musical, but it's not like your typical kind of Broadway music. It's like old norlin style music. It's got some blues, it's got some folk, it's got some kind of jazzy elements. It's but really cool show and, and I just like the T shirt, too. It's got a hand holding up. Red really is a red flower.

Clay Tumey:

I like red and black. That's always that's always been just the look that I enjoy. I mean, I have a lot of red tattoos. It's a common theme and like my computer, like my wallpapers are often red and black. So I like the look of it. And I see Hades. And I immediately think of some Bible lessons that I had when I was a kid because to me, Hades, and I don't know, admittedly, I don't know a lot about Greek mythology, or really anything, you know, in that in that in that neighborhood, but to me, Hades, I hear Hades, and I think he'll

Russ Hudson:

Well, I think it is it was the Greek name for the underworld word souls, what when they died, but Hades is also the Romans was a god. And the Romans called him Pluto. So is the Lord of the underworld. And so this, the myth actually is kind of interesting. It's it's that perception, he was a semi divine being, and she's a beautiful woman. And she had the power of fertility. So whenever she was around, things would just start growing and blossoming. And, and so she was beloved of the farmers and people. But she was also beautiful. And Haiti saw her and fell in love with her, and stole her away and took her down to the underworld. Well, this creative problem, because when she left, the world turned cold and barren and nothing would grow. So they had to come up with a deal where half of the year should go down and be with Hades, keep him happy. And that's winter. Yeah, and fall and winter. And then she come back to the surface and bring spring and summer. So it was sort of like the coming and going of fertility, in relation to death and dying. So these these stories are kind of funny and amusing stories. But if you contemplate them, they're actually teaching us stuff. That's, I think, what a myth is for how much

Clay Tumey:

of this do you know from, from making an intentional effort to just go and study and learn all that that you just said, versus just picking it up over the years when people because I, I get, I go down rabbit holes with the best of them. Yeah. And then sometimes, you know, I'm 42. Now and I'm, I'm not I don't, I don't know, I'm still a youngster for a lot of people. But for me, I feel like, I've been around for a while. And I just pick up stuff along the way. And all sudden, one day I'll find myself just talking. I'm like, Where the hell did I learn this stuff? Right. And so how often do you Well, first of all, I'm curious, because we share it. We share a time on the dam, and we do yeah. And I think that I feel comfortable saying you might experience similar experiences like that. But how often is it just, I just know this because at one point in my life, it was said and I remembered it versus hardcore, studying

Russ Hudson:

well, I have a lot of what you talk about. I mean, I pick up things, I have some kind of very good memory. And particularly with auditory, if somebody says something that strikes me, I tend to remember it. If I read something cool, you know, I remember it. But I think in this case, when I was a kid, I was really super into mythology. It was you get monsters and gods and creatures and things and heroes and princesses and all that but more interesting stories than some of what we learned. And I just was really into it. My, my mom, one of the cool things that she did when I was a kid is I would develop these burning interests. And she just go ahead and get me a book about it. And then I could read and study about it. And But yeah, I knew some of these myths from way back. It's funny because the play the other story is Orpheus in your industry, and it's a tragedy. And it's been done as, as plays before it's been done. But I love the fact that when you have a really powerful story or archetypal tale, that even if you know the ending, it doesn't spare you. It's kind of like you go see Titanic, you know, the ship is gonna sink, but it doesn't spare you. Right? You know, you know how it's gonna turn out. But it you still are going to go on a certain emotional ride and in Hades, towns like that there's a there's a tragic thing that happens. And even if you know, the story, the audience gasps every time. You know,

Clay Tumey:

it's funny, I hear that phrase, you know, you go to see the Titanic, and you know, it's gonna sink. But you see it anyways, I wonder, you know, I'm torn right now. Because there's so many things. I wonder, I just want to go down these how many things do we have in common? Because it's probably a lie. But then I also don't want to be so selfish. Just Just sit here and talk about that the whole time. But I am going to ask what? So I'll tell you the thing with me about Titanic? I've never seen it. Yeah, because I know, the damn thing sinks. Yes. And so for me, it's like Hello, major spoiler, I don't have much of an interest now. And that was that's not something that's only been around in my adult life that started early in life. And it was it was a big issue for me as a student and and it wasn't funny. And those days, because I, if a teacher was teaching something that I already knew, like two plus two is four. The other kids were struggling with two plus two. I immediately tuned out and went to my own world. Yeah. And I'm, I can talk at length from my own childhood and what it was like for me as a student, I'm actually curious about you, what was school like for you in the early days going through high school even? But but more so like, your younger, younger experience as a student? What was it like?

Russ Hudson:

Well, you know, I think I was very much like you, I would get bored if it was something I already knew. And vsv movies now if I think the tail is even if I know the ending, if I think something interesting is going to happen in the journey, I'll go see it. But I skip out on a lot of movies. A lot, a lot of romance movies, Okay, a couple meets the love, they fall in love. One of them has a problem or challenge. Usually the guy looks impossible in some way. And then they have a fight and they and then one of them ends up with somebody else. And then the last minute they realized they'd love each other get together. And and that's a lot of movies, or the action version is there's a young man and bad guys come and kill his family or his friends or something. And they leave him for dead. And he goes, some master teaches him and he goes into training. And it comes back and kicks the the bad guys, but at the end, but you know, almost doesn't make it but then he does. There are if I took out every movie that had those two plots, so not a lot of movies left, you know, so I don't need to see those reasonably school. I was very lucky. There were suggestions of putting me in a school for gifted kids and I would have had to be in boarding school. But my mom didn't she nixed the idea. She didn't think it was a good idea. She thought I was already too emotionally isolated. Gotcha. So um, she wanted me that quote, hang out with normal kids, right, whatever they are. Exactly. And so I, I did my best. But my teachers had some really good teachers, I have to say, who just on the sly, they could see me losing interest in class, and they give me extra work. They give me extra report. They'd have me read a book. They give me different stuff to do. That was not boring for me. I remember, even in high school. I had a math teacher. And I was getting bored with math and he was my geometry teacher actually. And I just had a knack for geometry really got it and was just all those Euclidean theorems had them down below. But I was just burning through it. And he saw I was gonna get bored. So he he had me do a report on non Euclidean geometry. I said, Well, what's that, and he says, we're going to go find out, you're going to write a report, you're going to tell me what it is. And so and he gave me some names to start with lobachevsky. And some of these mathematicians, and I went and did that report. And it really was relevant to what I'm doing now. Because it was talking about how any logical system has a set of propositions as has axioms, right, as we learn in math. And as long as what you weave from that doesn't violate the axioms, you've got a system, a system of logic, you've got a system of meaning. And but you always think that the one you got is the correct one. But what I learned from that report was Euclidian. Geometry only works on a flat plane. For example, if you have parallel lines, and you've got a line that is perpendicular to those two, proving they're parallel, that the parallel lines will never meet on a flat surface, but you put them on a globe, guess what they meet at the pole? Yeah. And so it will, okay. And suddenly, you see that, depending on how you look at something, it changes what you see. And that proved to be quite relevant. Working with the Enneagram, and they're saying the holy ideas and all that stuff.

Clay Tumey:

It's funny, as you're saying that I was gonna say, if I, if I didn't hear the beginning of that, or the end of that, I would have, I would have not known you were talking about geometry, I would have thought you were just talking about something intricate. Within the anagram itself. Yeah. There's a lot of similarities there.

Russ Hudson:

Oh, yeah. Yeah, well, this is just again, you create axioms, all philosophical religious systems, you know, scientific systems have a set of assumptions. And then they build a system of meaning from it. And, you know, if you, whatever your assumptions you start with, determine what you're going to be able to find from that system. Is there a soul or not? some religious system? Say yes, some say no. And what you see, pursuing either those systems are going to be different. Doesn't mean one's wrong and one's right. But they'll reveal different things in because in a certain way, you get right down to the What do I want to say the raw fabric of reality? Is there a soul or not? There, isn't there, isn't there? Depending on how you're looking? And that's not just relativism. That's not just some sloppy, easy New Age thing to say. There's a real truth to it.

Clay Tumey:

So childhood Russ, yeah. They suggest they suggest gifted classes, mom says, maybe not because, yes, he belongs there in terms of academics, but in social, you know, experience he needs, you know, like you said the quote, unquote, normal, similar for me, except a different flavor is I belonged in gifted and talented programming, but my behavior restricted me from being allowed to even apply for it. Like, my teachers would be like, you don't belong here. And then the people who were running and go, we don't want that kid here. He gets in trouble. So it was for it was different flavors of the same thing. And I sometimes I feel like I got screwed, you know, in a lot of ways, but sometimes it's like, you know, what, I? Maybe I did just belong with everybody else. And it's, you could debate.

Russ Hudson:

Again, it's one of the there's just like I was saying, it's a paradox. Yeah, how can we know we'll never know we went the way we went. I think that in a way my mom was right, that I needed to know how to interact with and be with, quote, normal people in quote, and I'd been in that very rarefied environment. I learned a lot of stuff, no doubt, but I would not have necessarily learned how to navigate the human world as well. At the same time, you know, like you're describing a number of my pals who are gifted were also had what they would describe them as behavioral issues. I had my versions of those, but I was sneakier. I

Clay Tumey:

think slick about it.

Russ Hudson:

I get my revenge on the sly.

Clay Tumey:

What any particular story comes to mind? Oh, dear. You can narrow it down to three stories if you want.

Russ Hudson:

Oh, my I didn't know I would just start you the most. When I got a little older, I can remember them or when I was a young kid. I did some crazy ones. You know? Yeah. I love these. guys were trying to steal something from me and I locked them in a closet and they taped up around the edges and hooked up a vacuum cleaner is trying to suck the air out of the mice that says a little mad behavioral scientist style, right? They didn't die and they didn't die, unfortunately. But you know, I was when I was in the frenzy of doing that, I wouldn't have minded Oh, it was it was really mad. But I, you know, I just had those kind of mad scientist's kind of ideas. And, you know, sometimes it was simple. You know, when I was in junior high, I remember certain guys picking on me and I had two things going for me One was that some of the really tough kids that were, you know, headed for a life of challenge, shall we say? They always like we were both. The weirdos were the outliers. We were the Misfits. So they kind of looked after me. So when just the kind of regular school bullies who were just never interesting people, that the real badass kids would take care of me and sometimes take care of them if you know what I mean. Exactly. So I had like a little posse, which was good and

Clay Tumey:

bad, bring relief, or did it bring any sort of guilt connected to that?

Russ Hudson:

No, no. Because see, these the ones were picking on me were really mean.

Clay Tumey:

So they deserved it.

Russ Hudson:

They deserved it. And they were, they were stealing stuff picking on me. And they're just being awful, right. And I just, I didn't request anything. Of course, they just said, they just say we heard you're picking on rest, you know, there's a price to be paid, you know. And they only did it once. So they wouldn't be a problem again. This is the craziest one ever did when they remember from high school was, and this is more mad scientists. I can't believe I'm telling you this. When we were in science class,

Clay Tumey:

this is the best stories when they start with I can't believe that I'm telling you. I

Russ Hudson:

know. It's like it's, it's like, hang on. There's certain talk shows. I like to watch this funny because the host gets people to talk about these things. But I was I was in science class. This was, you know, Junior High still, as in the ninth or 10th grade 10th grade thing. And we had grown a culture in a kind of mayonnaise jar. And then we're supposed to get rid of it. Well, my lab partners were in cahoots with me, we did not get rid of it. We put it in the back of our kind of lab drawer locker thing. And every day, we'd eat some of our lunch part of it in there. And this thing just started to grow into this horrible fungal mold. God knows what it was. And we called it Godzilla. And these these guys were stealing my lunch every day and they were particularly stealing my gummy bears. And that was just unforgivable. Yeah. So after they did this a few times, I said you guys better stop Mr. Wu. One of the guys, so I took some gummy bears. I implanted them in Godzilla. Oh, no. They sat there in let them marinate. Yeah, whatever the hell that was for a few days. They put them back in the gummy bear bag. And the guy stole it and ate him while he wanted school for the next few days.

Clay Tumey:

He's he took him out. Yeah,

Russ Hudson:

yeah. And they you know, I had that little lesson. I

Clay Tumey:

don't know that you did that intentionally. Or did I? Yes, he did. He Well, he

Russ Hudson:

did figure it out in this don't mess with that. Good. Yeah, I used to you know, I talking with people about that aspect of five that dark aspect of Fiverr called the Heisenberg effect, you know, from breaking bad. You like five start breaking bad. It's really bad. I am the one who knocks.

Clay Tumey:

examine this line from that.

Russ Hudson:

Exactly.

Clay Tumey:

Yeah, there's there's a few people in the world that you don't want to mess with somebody who can be more violent than you. Yep. And someone who can be more psycho or crazy or however you want to phrase it than you and sometimes physical violence. It's not necessary. Oh, yeah. And and it's one of those things you know, I I I'm capable. It's not an issue. I just don't prefer it. It's weird to me to be that way. Yeah. And I much prefer the gummy bear in the mold path.

Russ Hudson:

Yeah, well, I'm I can't say that I was never violent when I was younger, because I was sometimes but I was more often the object of violence, but sometimes I lost it and tore it and I you know, I get kind of psycho. You know, like gig get that kid off me. But I, I came to a certain point in my journey where I just realized I I did feel bad about it. I didn't see this little solution. I didn't think that meeting out what had happened to me was a good idea. And there was a way I had to kind of come to terms with that with my own temper Enneagram theory predicts it my shadow as a five is of the low side of eight. So, you know, in certain situations, I lose it and do stuff that eights do when they're not having a good day. And I just had had to come to terms with that. And, you know, it's a process this is I keep saying the Enneagram Shadow Work, I had to make friends with that part of me instead of pretending wasn't there. Yeah. And then start to change didn't happen overnight. Of course.

Clay Tumey:

Yeah, that's probably I would guess a process that's just kind of ongoing, right? Let's see. Oh, yeah. Yeah,

Russ Hudson:

I mean, it does still, sometimes I I read or see things, or people do things. And I just feel that, that red fire eight energy, you know, rise up, I just know, I know, how to follow a different track in my brain and channel it into some kind of constructive way of speaking up or doing something or saying something that isn't just blowing my top and reacting to them. You know, because you can even verbally do damage from that place.

Clay Tumey:

I think the verbal damages is I mean, physical pain is so quick and simple. That's it heals differently. It's that doesn't hurt the same as verbal, emotional, yeah. however you want to call it so? Yeah, I would agree with

Russ Hudson:

that. 100%. Yeah, I've had to learn to watch my tongue to handle that, you know, just, there's thing. See, that's the danger of power. You know, because you start to learn this stuff. I've been teaching a long time. And I see things going on in people pretty much all the time, but I'm not trying to psych people out. You know, I've zero interest in psyching anyone out. But I noticed things. And I've also learned that don't mention what you notice, unless someone asks you. It's really nobody's business. And it's not even mine. I just I noticed. Oh, if you'd like to know, I noticed this. Yeah. But it's, you know, using that that kind of knowledge can be weaponized. And so there's a process of understanding that if I do that, how could I say the karma is a bitch. Yeah.

Clay Tumey:

Yeah. Well, I want to ask one more question about about youngster, Russ. And then we'll move on a little back. Yeah. Hey, how early Do you? Or do you remember that you how early it was in life that you realize that you enjoyed teaching and whether whether it was something big or whether it was something small, I have a memory that's so it's so burned in my brain from when I was in the second grade, when I was trying to learn multiplication? Someone taught me and I was I was on the receiving end of it. But I knew I want to be that guy. Yeah, I want to take something complex, and simplify it. For for someone else. Was there a point for you, when you were like, hey, this teaching thing? I want to do that?

Russ Hudson:

Yeah. Well, it was a little more complicated for me in that I, one experience I had of it. When I was in fourth grade. I well, each year in our elementary school, we would have a science fair. And there were prizes. And in third grade, I won the Blue Ribbon, first prize, I did think about the solar system and the planets and all that and fourth grade, I did one on evolution in the ages of the earth. No award. Not Found out that later on. I didn't find this out. But later on. My teacher was outraged because a couple of the people on the committee were fundamentalists, and they just didn't want anything then smacked of Darwin or evolution to be

Clay Tumey:

got hit with politics. I got hit with politics

Russ Hudson:

I was when I was nine years old, you know, but anyway, my teacher felt bad. And so her husband was the biology teacher at the local high school. So she had me come with my charts and stuff. And I went there with him. And I gave a presentation on this to the high school biology students and I just was you are doing it doing what I do. Just talk and then explaining and then this happened. And then and then I finish, I looked out and they all had their jaws. And they were all looking at me like I was from Mars. Yeah. And it scared me because I realized I had scared them. And I said, Are there any questions? Wow, you're only a little kid. How do you know this stuff? And then what could I say? Did I read books, you know, but anything I said it just made them feel bad. Yeah. And I didn't want them to feel bad. So I kind of pulled back a little later on. I another teacher I discovered I could sing. And I didn't know I could sing. I didn't know I had any talent. I was just a science nerd good. But I could sing and. And he discovered I could act. So he had me star in the school play. I played Tom Sawyer actually operetta of Tom Sawyer, and it was singing and dancing and all that. And I did this, my mom and dad were in total shock. They did not know their kid would do this. And everybody, then everybody liked me. So I was thinking, How can I put this performing thing together with conveying information that I think is cool. And, you know, I went into from that into being a musician for years, but I always had this interest. And even with music, I wanted to sort of convey messages and blow people's minds and so forth. But I think I didn't really consider teaching, too. later on. I wanted, I knew I would probably be good at it. I had confidence that I knew the material. But I just had this little thing of being afraid of scaring people. I don't want to scare people with my difference or document or whatever.

Clay Tumey:

Yeah, how much of that? I would? How much would that still exist, if at all?

Russ Hudson:

I think Don reseau, hit the nail on the head. He told me when I was very first working with them. He said, he said, You're brilliant. You're very clear. you communicate well, you communicate in a way that people understand complex ideas. He says, however is is you have what's important for you is that people need to know that you care about them, is when you can do what you're doing and convey to people that you give a damn about. Because then you'll be really a teacher, you'll be a force to be reckoned with. And I took in his advice. And I realized he was telling me the truth. Just me rattling on about you know, topics is very different than me sitting down and teaching someone

Clay Tumey:

it's a different energy. We recently did. by we I mean EP we have we had our training program for for new guys where people who want to be guides want to go in and prison and teach. Sure. And we had, we did some teaching, this is all over zoom and stuff. Because we're all spread out over the world where people would practice teaching with us. And it would be a few people in the class with him, it would be another guide, and it would be usually an ambassador or one of the guys who has been previously incarcerated. And it's it's nice, the feed that feedback right there that he gave you is is still that's, that's the number one thing that we say when we talk about going into prison, right? It's not limited to prison. It's just how people are. It's, it's, it's absolutely. Step one, you know, for most people probably and then especially in prison, if you and he's you know, you say give a damn, I say give a shit. It's because it's easier to say gas gas factor is what if you don't give a shit, then I don't give a shit. I'm not listening anything you said, right. And if you care, and I think you care, then you have my attention.

Russ Hudson:

Well, that's been my experience, just teaching in general and certainly been true. When I when I've gone into the prisons and the jails with the guys, and it's very palpable. I think that, you know, we learn about the centers in the Enneagram. And I think the more that all three of our centers, our main centers, you know, there's others, there's seven of them, ultimately, but when the three main ones are engaged in what we're doing, it has a different effect. And there's a difference between being there in my heart, and being in some kind of sympathy that draws attention to itself is a subtle thing, but people know the difference. Yeah. And you know, whether whatever we're teaching, you know, I think the whole basic premise behind the Enneagram is, is transmission, you can't exactly teach the Enneagram in terms of what it really is, but you can transmit it. And that is what I think counts for people, people can see that if you if you're in alignment with, you know, David Daniels used to say when we walk our talk, and that's, that's an aspect of it, to be sure, but I think it's embodying what you're speaking about. I just see people all the time talking about being free from fixations, while they're speaking from their fixation, and it's kind of a it creates a little cognitive dissonance for the listener, you know,

Clay Tumey:

or the viewer. What my best sound like I'm trying to think how that would be my

Russ Hudson:

take any type and just start talking about the Enneagram like you're that type and And, okay that that's a good beginning. But if you're talking about the Enneagram, as a tool for liberation, you're talking about it is how to, you know, get out of the box, as I like to say, well, it, it behooves you to be at least a little bit out of the box. You know, if I'm just being really five ish while I'm talking about the Enneagram doesn't cut it. If somebody has a seven, and they're being very seven ish, it doesn't cut it. Yeah.

Clay Tumey:

So how then do you how I won't say step out of it, although maybe that is the right phrase, but how myself, I'll use myself as an example. If I'm, if I am a Type Five, how do I go in as a teacher and not be a Type Five?

Russ Hudson:

Well, by bringing in the other senators, like, if I'm a five, I've done my homework. I know the information. I have to worry about that part.

Clay Tumey:

the easy part.

Russ Hudson:

It's easy part. And my they're grounded in my kinesthetically aware. And is my heart available? And if if the contact full part of it, you see, like for me, I've used that when I'm teaching them out five is that for me presence is contact, in contact with myself and contact were you in contact with the room? The the feeling of presence as contact is the restorative part for five, which means the other centers are involved, it means I'm outside of the box, then the information is there and available. But it's not the only thing for sale. No, there's more to me than that. And it makes the the interchange with the other person. exponentially more powerful.

Clay Tumey:

I'm thinking if I'm, if I'm a listener right now, and I'm listening to this, and all the files are half because we just talked about what that's like to be. And I wonder if you know, if there's a Is there a 32nd snippet for each type that we could just go around? Or is it or is it? Or it could

Russ Hudson:

be? I don't know, it's always about going where your personality doesn't want to go? Yeah. So like eights know very well as vulnerability, being letting yourself be touched and affected by how you're affecting the other person, how they're affecting you. And turning to the grounding in your body is empowerment instead of a wall. Right? The Nine is about the quality of my engaged attention. Or I'm really 100% here, no, part of me is in the backroom hiding out, no part of me is focused on anything else. I'm not thinking about a fishing trip, you know, I'm here with you all full on. And people feel that when nines do that. It's they they can do miracles. And one is the openness. It's really the experience of openness, open endedness curiosity. not needing to have answers or prescriptions. Right. That's where I tend to get it's easy for me as a one to go there. And it's safer. But the thinking of it more as a shared exploration is really helpful for one that brings everything good that the one has to bring. You know, Susan does that all the time? Yeah, shows that she didn't tell people what to do. She asked them a question. She'll say, like, Rick, I'm wondering, how is this for you to get people to look deeper. And she's that actually, and you can tell she really wants to know,

Unknown:

too.

Russ Hudson:

It's more about respecting the sovereignty of the souls involved. It's more about sitting in my own sovereign being let the other person have their sovereign being. We're not here to merge. Right? We're gonna we are connected can help it. But the connection actually deepens and has the real place to the degree I'm dropped in and letting the other person drop in, rather than trying to trying to connect, right, that's actually counterproductive. When twos do that, again, amazing things occur. threes, it's letting go of the wonderful plan and agenda I have for the other person or for myself. Like, I always tell threes, like when they're meditating, you know, we're not going anywhere. That's what what's hard about it. We're used to constructing a plan and here's what we're going to do, here's how we're going to fix it. And then we're gonna go do this. And that's cool for a lot of things. But when it comes time to really show up and be a facilitator for another human being, that's what you got to relax. That'll just naturally be their idea. cool ideas will come. But the more you're open to new inspirations, the more you're just there. The dynamism of the other person that will create the agenda and the forward momentum. It doesn't have to come from me. Yeah. Yeah. For it's it's forced tend to have he show up in situations by seeing how what the other person's experience relates to what I'm experiencing. So Oh, that's like a time I did this, or Oh, I can relate to that, because this happened. And, and it's a natural thing. It's not a bad thing. But some people feel that's like taking attention back to yourself. It may or may not be right. But it's a really good discipline for for us to just make it, make it more about the other person. If there may be an experience that you have is relevant, that could be illustrative, but double check. And it's just more the being in the mystery and really listening deeply to the other soul. And it will inform our own experience, but we have to be careful about that habit of verifying things like oh, yeah, I relate to that. Oh, yeah, I had that experience. Oh, yeah.

Clay Tumey:

verifying that that's, that's the perfect word that makes that makes sense. For me, maybe I shouldn't say it makes sense for me, because I'm doing the same damn thing I literally just did in real time, what you said don't do.

Russ Hudson:

I do I do it. And I it's a habit and it's not evil or bad. But it just limits my availability, to really be there as a force. For the person I'm there to support. If that's indeed what I'm doing. I think soon as we do, it, also does sort of feel like oh, you know, usually I don't relate to anybody, but gee whiz, I can relate to you, I can relate to that and sort of like reassuring myself and the other person that we're connected. The the five, I will already said, contact the six. Trust that what you need to know will come to you trust that, if you're just really there with the other person, the wisdom of how to respond to them, when to respond to them. cool ideas about how you might, you know, help them get out of the box that will come to you, you don't have to be overthinking it, trying to come up with some kind of a plan or idea. It's it's not a test, I was told that the six is you're not being tested. No one's gonna grade you. Yes, you know, you're all right. Just give yourself a little breathing room. And you'd be amazed what can come through and I always try to help them see that they've already done this many times. It's not alien territory. Yeah. And just haven't put the put together, they haven't connected that a certain orientation in themselves, makes that more likely to happen. And so seven is there's a couple of angles with it. But I think seven it's it's it's the is so much of the fear is around being limited being trapped. And so there's like, some of the other tests we looked at, it's really being committed to staying right there with the person staying put. planted here, there's no place else to go with my attention or anything else. So I'm just right here. And the more I do that, it gets easier and it gets enjoyable. And I feel that that is the path toward a certain kind of freedom. You know, that's, you know, what sevens are actually after is that sense of freedom? I think too, it's it's growing my capacity to be with the suffering in this world. I don't think I'm always telling people if you think sevens guy, get out of jail free card for human suffering, you're you don't know any sevens. They suffer just as much. They're everybody else. They get terrible depressions, they get anxiety attacks, all kinds of things. But they just have a certain way of coping with it. But they're learning like we all are, to have a greater capacity to be with suffering, which actually opens up the resources of bringing positivity and freedom to the situation. You know, I remember talking with guys in San Quentin about that one time what freedom actually is, what was it I wasn't telling them what it was way to write cool discussion.

Clay Tumey:

So you bring up San Quentin and by the way, thank you, I I totally put You're on the spot with that little impromptu lesson there and and people can't see cuz this is all just on the podcast, but I have no notes. We're just sitting there literally nothing between us but a couple of mics. Right. And I didn't plan that. And I needed to do and I appreciate it. So thanks for running, running us around the circle. Well, yeah,

Russ Hudson:

give people a reason to listen, look clicking we're talking about.

Clay Tumey:

But talking about San Quentin and going and going on the inside, yeah, as we say, I suppose euphemistically, what? Were we the first people to take you inside? Or had you been to prison before?

Russ Hudson:

No, no. First time I went in was I'd been in in jails before, but not in a in a capacity of doing something in the jails. But this first time I was in prison or jail, to provide a service, shall we say? And that was with the BP? Yeah,

Clay Tumey:

how much of that first experience? Do you do you remember?

Russ Hudson:

First time in first time in San Quentin, San Quentin, I remember pretty well, actually.

Clay Tumey:

Were there any expectations that you had? And it could be big things, small things, but the way it smelled or looked or anything that stuck out to you from from like, this is not how the movies are? Or maybe this is how the movie?

Russ Hudson:

No, I wonder how the movies are? No, yeah, the movies you saw, I see the cell blocks, right? Guys, rattling cans against the bars or something in prison riots see that a lot. Now, you know, just going into that first area where they've got the kind of garden and the religious services are there and they'll go in into the back area with the the yard and it's very clear, in my mind, the first time we went, we didn't go back to the yard, we were just in that front area. And we were in there with a chapel where the chapter That's right. And I just mostly was really curious to meet the guys and, and see how I would fit in with what Susan was doing what she was planning. And it was remarkably easier than anything, I would have thought. I didn't feel like I had to work at all. And I think some of that is because a lot of the guys were ready. And I've said that, you know, people ask who's hard to teach and who's easy to teach us, I don't really think in those terms. But I have said sometimes some of the people I've met in prison or jail are amongst the easier people to teach because like, shit, we got nothing to lose. You know, it's like, you're at the bottom. And you're you're being honest, you're being real with me, tell me more. And it's very simple. And it's very human. And so I feel a lot of transmission there. And I also think, you know, the team has their have their head screwed on, right. And the whole setup and the way the curriculum is done, everything is really good. So yeah, I just remember these very heartfelt, profound conversations. And just,

Unknown:

you know,

Russ Hudson:

one of the things I've said that some of my students probably hate, but I don't know, they said, what makes a great teacher, people ask me that all the time, you know, I say you have to know the material, right? no getting around that. But that's the easiest part. You have to develop your capacity to be present and to be with people, that's a lot harder. And the third, which can't really do anything about and this is the part that will turn many people away, you have to have suffered enough. And you know, everybody I know who's been inspired to really do work with this. They've been through some things, and it isn't like you need to go out and create suffering. But it I don't think that would even help. I think I'd be very counterproductive.

Clay Tumey:

Synthetic suffering doesn't sound

Russ Hudson:

too legit. No, no. And people are plenty good at doing that without any help. But I think it's like getting in touch with how much are you in touch with your own suffering? How much do you understand your own suffering? Because if I can't be with mine, how the hell am I going to be with yours? And so if I've been on a journey of healing, I also know the ropes a little bit. And certainly when we're teaching in jail or prison, and that's where you ambassadors become super important. It's like people need to know this is not some pie in the sky nonsense. You seem like a real person. You've been on the ropes, you know what it's like? It gives people hope to see you know, when people find out that I lived a lot of my life in in deep depression, a lot of suicidal ideation, I was really in trouble for years. It gives people hope, like, well, damn, you know, that weird guy can get out of it. You know, maybe I can in the end. That's the truth.

Clay Tumey:

When I when I first Met Susan, I was I was, by the way, there's more water if we need the water. We, I was in the ship as they say, you know, I was I was at the end of my rope. I was in prison already. I'd been there for two or three years at that point. And I was I was so I just wanted a better way. And I was at a point, I would have never been like that in the free world. I mean, I'd been i'd reached points in the free world, where, you know, prior to prison, where I was miserable, I didn't know what to do. I was just throwing anything against the wall to see what would stick I was completely lost. But I never in the in the free world. I never got to a point where I was like, I need answers. And I'm open to them. I just knew that I was lost. And then after that, I turned myself and went to prison, all that stuff. And that whole time I was searching and I thought I was doing work. And you know, I really, really wasn't I was just kind of running up the old bow, I guess. But I wasn't really doing any real work. I didn't know what I didn't know what to do. Right. And so when I met Susan, and this, this, the timing was just perfect. Because I was I was just so I was just so hard just in so much pain and, and lost. And that's a bummer for a lot of people. Doesn't matter your type. That's just that's just sad. Yeah. And, in addition to that, for me, based on my type, structure, personality style, whatever the phrasing is that somebody might choose, not knowing is is even more painful for me then than just generally being sad or lost or whatever. Yeah. And so the timing was just fucking perfect man. And I was, I think, I totally it makes sense to me why prison is an easier place to teach or to talk about this stuff. Like,

Russ Hudson:

it can have a certain monastic element, you know, your life is control, just like people going into a monastery, one's voluntary more than the other in general cases. But still, and sometimes when some of the guys are having a hard time I've thrown that idea at them. I said, you know, consider this as like, you're in a monastery. Yeah. And so you are not subject to all the temptations and craziness that's out there on the outside, you can focus here in a way that there's a support for that.

Clay Tumey:

That's I've described it very similarly. I've, I've told people, you know, when they asked, why did you turn yourself in? Why did you you know, you got away with all this, blah, blah, blah, and all that stuff. And the reality is, and it took me many years to get past the shame of admitting it in these terms, but the reality is, I was not okay, being an adult. And the free world. Yeah, I needed somewhere where I had no responsibility. I needed somewhere where I didn't have anybody who needed me, I needed some where, where none of these things out here existed. And so it's the similar thing, with with different with different details, but it's the same idea. And it was all about me. And at the time, I even felt selfish, like, Am I being? is it all about me right now. And maybe it was, I don't know, I was so lost that I, I believed that my only hope was to start on the inside, and then just go out from there.

Russ Hudson:

I think, you know, it's, it's weirdly parallel to why some people go into the military. You know, I'm thinking of some of the men and women I've met in, in jail or in prison, I'm thinking of one young man I've very fond of, without, you know, revealing anything, but but he made it, he was on the inside, he was due to get out. And he asked to stay longer, because he felt he wasn't ready for the very reasons you're saying. They just thought, you know, if I get outside, I'm just gonna go, I'm gonna fuck up, I'm gonna get in trouble again. And he and the judge was really impressed with him, and gave him a good setup. But I mean, you know, if you think about the original sense of incarceration, I think it was partially to give people that chance, of course, it gets distorted as hell and it gets mixed up with, you know, desires to punish and revenge all kinds of things. But I think the original idea of it was that, that gave people a time to sort of come to terms with things to maybe get some healing to take a little journey in their soul. And, you know, I think if we can do more work like EPP, and make that more explicitly the case, you know, they're gonna have a lot better society in the long run, don't you?

Clay Tumey:

Yeah, I mean, absolutely. I think that in our culture, prisoners just turned into like a vengeful thing. I don't think there's any it's hilarious that people say corrections and people will call themselves correctional officers because, haha, that's hilarious. It's just not the

Russ Hudson:

case. So now what I see Yeah, it's it's like trying To restore something, you know, there's a lot of things. There's so many things though I think that I've been doing work on with the prison system with up I've been doing work on, on healing racism and social and religious divides. And when you look at it, it isn't like this is some recent problem. Humans have always been like this. And no matter where you go in the world, people don't like people who are different from them. People are afraid of other people, and people rip each other off. And it's just is anybody surprised? I think, though, that it helps me. Because if I just think of this as problems that in that we're all screwed up. It's just too depressing. I just want to, you know, give up. But if I look at it, as there's more of an evolutionary urge, like something in his nose, we can do better than this. We can do better than this. And sometimes we do. There's evidence, there have been people who've done better, and sometimes you and I do better, right? And we see that. So I like to think of it more as an evolutionary step. Like maybe we can come to a society where we don't hate people who are different than we are. Maybe, for real, right? Maybe we can come to a way that when somebody's stumbling in life, we can see that and catch them before they really fall into trouble. You know, I don't expect this to happen quickly or right. Probably not in my lifetime, but you have to start the building blocks so that somewhere and that's what I'm like to think we're doing,

Clay Tumey:

I wonder, because, you know, to me, I think I'm a dad, I have kiddos have a 14 year old and a nine year old and I I've started to I have to be careful about how I parent because I don't want to be like the typical dad telling his kiddos, hey, this is how life is, you know, I want to ease into it in a way to where they just hear things that I say and learn from it. Yeah. And so you know, with my 14 year old in particular, I would never say hey, son, this is the Enneagram let's find your type. And all that shit, right? I wouldn't, you know, I just wouldn't do that. It doesn't sound like a successful plan for me. But I do I do drop little things here and there where it's like, Hey, you know, like, he's, he's a basketball player. So even with competition, I try to just just drop things here and there. And I wonder like, at, you know, I always have these fantasies in my head of like, at what point will we just like having just sit down and talk about the Enneagram or everything that I learned? And he knows about my life of incarceration? He knows I wrote a book. Yeah, it was all that stuff. I did read your book. You know. You're one of the you're one of the supporters. And when I was doing the Kickstarter, I remember very clearly. That's right. That's and thank you for that. Back in

Russ Hudson:

the day. Back in the day, that

Clay Tumey:

thing was released. And almost six years ago now. It's It's been a while I've been I've been around for a while now. And yeah, that's cool. I just threw me back six years.

Russ Hudson:

Without that whole process of you. You letting letting him know what's going on? Yeah,

Clay Tumey:

yeah. Well, he you don't know now that I think about now, I'm really sidetracked. I, we the day that that Kickstarter was was complete. It was the last day of Part Three when we were in I forget the town because it was before the it was before the barn was was was back in action. Part Three where we was in Connecticut.

Russ Hudson:

Oh, wait. Yeah, we were up at? We're up at the diamond art place. Yeah. Yes. And I and because you said that I'm not gonna remember the name. Right. But same. Yeah. But espouse the guest house. Yes. That's the one house Yes, in Central Connecticut coast.

Clay Tumey:

So we were rabbit holing hard like this, or whatever they call that. But so to go back to talking about being a parent, and I don't know, what do you think about At what point is, is it? How early do we start talking to young people about big ideas around their personality around the Enneagram as a whole around, you know, all the things that we learn when we get into the Enneagram? Yeah, I won't say it's age inappropriate, but it's sometimes. Maybe it's a little much? I don't know.

Russ Hudson:

I think it really depends on the kid. parents asked me this question a lot. I tend to think that first off, kids learn from our example more than anything, if we're really practicing presence, and we're showing up when we talk to them, and they see us processing and how we process information. We don't just jump to some tiresome old opinion, right? When they see us doing that they learn that you know, that, you know, various teachers that we work with About mirror neurons, and how that we learn by imitation. But I think that's true. I mean, if I think about, you know, my dad, he said some things I agree with, they said, some things I definitely did not agree with. But that wasn't what impacted me. What impacted me was his honesty, his integrity. It's his birthday today, by the way,

Clay Tumey:

happy birthday, happy

Russ Hudson:

birthday Dad, I gotta call him it. But he had a kind of way of being that really did impact me. And I think a lot of my good qualities come from what I learned from how he was, as far as these kind of teachings go, I kind of leave it up to the kid I, when they're ready, if they're curious, they'll ask questions. And I'll tell them, the only other caveat I have about it, and kids are different terms of when they're ready to hear that some there, you know, teenagers in there just fine with another's, maybe I find that in the early stages, I'd never used the Enneagram as a system of ego reduction. And they're not ready for that they're still forming, right? Of a sense of self. So I mostly use the mirror, help them see what's good about them. Because when you're a teenager, it's so sucks being a teenager, don't we remember, what is worse than being 1415 years old, is terrible. I've

Clay Tumey:

done a lot of work to forget those.

Russ Hudson:

Most kids, you know, nobody particularly likes it. But you know, we're suddenly we're faced with adult situation where hormones are starting to work, and we're feeling weird. And we feel like we'll never fit in. And kids have a lot of negative self concepts coming up at that age, some of them cover over those with a layer of narcissism and show off Enos. But that's just a defense against the fact that they feel crap underneath. So Enneagram at that stage can help them see what's cool about them, and how they're like people that they admire.

Clay Tumey:

That's a good one.

Russ Hudson:

That's that I find most teenagers that were looking for role models at that age. And you know, if I found out that certain fives that I just was so amazed with I like that person. Oh, yeah. And then I could see that and it also helps you start to focus a little bit in on developing your your talents and capacities. Now, I don't think necessarily, he I need to explain a person, a teenager, their type, their number or any of that. But then information behind it can be helpful in building their confidence, their self concept and things like that. They need that l and then we get in your 20s, then you can start the process of seeing through it but you is jack angler used to say you have to be somebody before you can be nobody.

Clay Tumey:

That's a good one. So you're so I, if I don't Mike, it's not a five. But if he were, a better way to go about the conversation would not be Hey, you're a five. And this is what if I'm our boss, it's more like you have the gift of clarity. Yeah, you have the ability to do these things. And this is where you're going to change the world or, or help the world in a positive way.

Russ Hudson:

Right? I'd even say one, I would even, you know, put a little more soft boundary around it by just saying, you know, one of one really big gift I see that you have as you have this clarity, amongst others, but that's one thing that stands out. So again, we're not making a boxy. We're saying one, you know, you have other qualities, but that's that's a big one.

Clay Tumey:

So not this is the one is this is one.

Russ Hudson:

Yeah, this is one that's really or others. Yeah, yeah. And then you know, we're not we're not making boundaries for them. They don't need adults don't need those either.

Clay Tumey:

There's a reason we say that there's, you know, there's there's nine prisons.

Russ Hudson:

Yeah. And that's why the Enneagram is not a tic tac toe board. It's not nine boxes. And there's a reason for that. And that's why we have to endure the fact that looks spooky to a desert folks. Yeah, but it's to remember that it's dynamic. It's interconnected. Their internal relationships, different parts of us, and that's a really important part of it.

Clay Tumey:

I don't want to end without asking one of my favorite questions. Okay. And, and we're, I mean, we're an hour or so, and I hope we're I hope we're still comfortable. We're still we're good. Cool. I, I'm always you know, with the podcast, one of my one of my great fears is that I will not ask a question that needed to be answered or whatever. And I so more to kind of protect from that. I just say, you know, what is something That, what are there? I mean, Surely there's questions that nobody ever asked that you just wish you had time to answer him or topics to talk about whether it's Enneagram, not Enneagram, or anything, is there anything just kind of burning that you just want to just want to say, or share? While I grab another word,

Russ Hudson:

feel free? Yeah, I think that if we understand a little bit more what the Enneagram is for, it can help us. And if we've mercy around the whole notion that people are in different places in the process of what it's for, then it's going to be a lot better flying for everybody. On the one hand, you get people being very arrogant, and these people aren't doing the real work and everything. But you know, we didn't start off studying spirituality reading the Bhagavad Gita or re reading commentaries on, you know, Christian mystics or something, we probably read a horoscope book or we read some, you know, popular, you know, New Age novel, or something that we that we did not start with. And so we have to allow for people to get onto different rungs of the ladder. That's very important. But it's also important that a few people at least know further up the ladder and where the ladder is going or, or else, you end up with a very short ladder that doesn't go anywhere. And my fear is more, that's the danger with the Enneagram. Now that there aren't enough people. And I want to use my remaining time on this earth to help people who can help secure that next part of the ladder. And what's that about? Well, in old fashioned language, it's called soul building. You know, we need to do emotional processing, that's part of it, that's the psychology part of it. We need we need to recognize that what we are deep down is good and essential, right. And to know that experientially, but we also need to learn how to live that. And live learning how to live, it is soul work. And that's the development of our capacities. It's the development of our capacity to witness to be compassionate, to function in the world without recourse to old programming and patterns. It's that's the tallest order in the whole thing. And that separates, you know, the men from the boys and the women from the girls. You know, it's, it's, it's another order. But I think the Enneagram is not just about good news. And it's not just about rubbing our nose in our errors. It's about developing people who can live the spiritual truths that they have come to understand. I really think that's a big part of ebp. I mean, we can't go and help people if we aren't developing that aspect of it. But that is a lifelong process. It's not a quickie. It's not like you go and take a few courses and get a piece of paper and yours, your soul is mature. No, it doesn't work that way.

Clay Tumey:

So you're telling me that I can't do a Facebook survey? You could be fixed. And

Russ Hudson:

all those things could be helpful little hints on the way I'm not against those things. But I just hope that people don't stop the search there. You know? Yeah, just because you found out your best guess of your type or your instinct stack or your tried type, or all of that is just in grist for the mill. But then what do you do with it? What do you do with that information? And that is, as I said, that's where experience teaching being examples, things like that come into play, and we need more of people who can carry that aspect of the Enneagram I think

Clay Tumey:

when I ask a very noob question, very newbie, you know, entry level question here, cuz it just popped. You know, I'm hearing you talk and my mother listens to the podcast, by the way. Oh, my

Russ Hudson:

goodness. Hi, Mom. Hi,

Clay Tumey:

mom. And I didn't know that she listened to like the first few episodes before I even knew that she knew that it existed. I sent her a text message. I was like, hey, by the way, I'm doing this thing. She's like, yeah, I already heard. So Hi, mom. Love you. And we've recently started talking about she's always known about the Enneagram since I got out and we were very close, and she's read the book as well. Probably a few times. She's met Susan. She's, she's you know, all the things that I've done with EPP she's she's been hip to, and I've never been just I've never just leaned on anybody to learn about their type. And, you know, a saying that I know is common that I've heard from you quite a few times is you know, when the the student is ready, the teacher will appear. One of my great fears is that I Won't be, I won't be good enough. when when when that moment comes for someone to just say, Hey, what's this all about? How do I find my type?

Russ Hudson:

If you didn't have that fear? I'd be worried.

Clay Tumey:

It's comforting. It's still there. And it's I'm glad. I'm glad that that's good. And and also, you know, we we talk about, you know, I have my opinions on what I think my mom's type is. Sure. And I don't want to one of the first things I learned from Susan was don't don't tell somebody else what their type is, right. It's an it's an, and I took that way, way more severely than she intended. By the way, Susan, when she said that, so I take it to a degree that I probably shouldn't. But how do I, you know, in using myself and my mother, as an example, what is the best way for me to navigate that conversation? So, because I think, there, there's so much value in learning the Enneagram, there's so much value in learning, you know, like you say, What's good about us at the core of us? And then also maybe where our red flags are? And all these other things? How best Can I have that conversation with my mom, in a way that will be both interactive? And not just saying, hey, go read this or go do that, but also, not me doing it? and telling her from the outside in? What her type is? Are you How do I navigate that conversation?

Russ Hudson:

Well, I think the best thing I can do is one ask people questions, like we're already saying, if they've once they're starting to look at it, to help them make discriminations. Are you more like this? Are you more like this? And to you know, most people have some trouble seeing some of their parameters, shall we say? So it's, it's helpful for many people to have a conversation about with someone who knows them, who knows them well. Beyond that, I just, it's helping people develop the habits of, of self observation, you know, I think all the major teachers of the Enneagram historical ones, anyway, that's the core, seeing recognizing the patterns as they come up. So I always tell people look, you might come to a conclusion from reading something in a book, or you relate to something you heard on a panel or something. But the thing is, walk around and see what comes up. Because what might be coming up is not necessarily 100% connected with yourself concept, how you like to see yourself or how you don't like to see yourself. So, you know, we mostly will, you know, when when we present the model of the the strata, you know, we talk about the outermost layer of us as our, our self concept. But you have to have a little awareness to notice that your actual behavior does not necessarily go along with how you see yourself. And that can be both, you know, you were better at a lot of things than we think. And we're, and we don't do certain things that we think we do when we do certain things that we don't think we do. So there that search for true seeing what I'm really up to. That's how I always start people. And I tell them, and I use the triads Are you the horn avians are good to start with, are you a go getter? Are you kind of there's a right way to do things, kind of person you're trying to maintain things? Or are you a person who pulls back and right looks at things with a little distance. And most people can tell that I just helped people to start making some distinctions and start the process of search, because them acquiring those habits, them acquiring that capacity to study themselves, not intellectually, but in this self observational modality is ultimately the point of even having Enneagram types, if you know your type, but you don't develop those habits, you haven't been well served. So anything that gets her launched in that kind of stuff, that's what I would, I would advocate for.

Clay Tumey:

It's very exciting when someone you care about takes an interest like that, and something that had such a big part. And the Enneagram had just such a massive part of my ability to function in the world. You know, I learned in my last year of incarceration, and I might have been okay, I might have I might have done okay, without it. I might have I might have just stumbled forward the whole way all the way to the grave, you know, eventually got there. I don't think I would have had the level of success. I don't mean financial or corporate or any of that. I mean, just in terms of life in general. The last 10 years have been alright. Yeah, I ain't too mad about it. Yeah. And I don't think I would have been there without understanding in that last year. Like what exactly? Like, what is I'm remembering now I just said the F word. And my mom heard that earlier. I don't know why my brain there went there just now. But like I was about to say why you know what the f is? I'm, I'm grateful that I had all these tools and it's exciting to hear someone else be interested in it. So yeah, of course

Russ Hudson:

it is knowing how to navigate that someone you love gets interested. You know, my family was slow. Don Reese's family, as far as I know, never got into it. Well, but, you know, my family did kind of one at a time. Yeah, I remember my dad came to a training and figured out he was a six. And he was he was quite into it, you know, realizing it explained some things to it.

Clay Tumey:

I'm gonna go out on a limb and say you might have known. Yeah.

Russ Hudson:

Yeah, he was true. He didn't know he but I let him find it out. Yeah. And it was more powerful as an experience for him as a result. But the other thing is, is just and I say this as I look at it, like you were saying, is my life better for having known this? You know, I you go through different spells, when you learn this stuff you can be feel kind of shamed. You can feel kind of arrogant about it. You know, there's certain things about the five description I go, yeah, that's how I am and just deal with it. You know, it could be that way. But really, the best benefit has been it's given me a sense of mercy, and compassion for some of my perceived shortcomings. The things that I wish I was more it isn't like a carte blanche that it's okay that I've the shortcomings, but gives me mercy to the fact that I have no

Clay Tumey:

I like that. Yeah. Thank you.

Russ Hudson:

Thank you, clay.

Clay Tumey:

I we we we have all the time, but I just I feel like that's a good spot, man. Yeah, you'll I'll say this. And before I hit stop on the record button here, you have a website, Russ Hudson, calm Russ. Hudson, calm. That's right. And what are we going to find there? Well, you'll

Russ Hudson:

find information about any teaching, I'm doing online or in person. You'll find any new publications, you'll find some blogs and things. I'm thinking about putting up a blog about the history of the Enneagram. Because people say write a book about it. But I think there's not a lot of people want to read a big old book about the history here. But I thought perfect thing for a blog, so I'll probably put that on the site.

Clay Tumey:

Cool. Well, thank you once again, I appreciate your time. And just you're my buddy, man. Yeah, I enjoyed chatting with you. Thank you was fun. Awesome. All right. For more information about EPP please visit Enneagram Prison project.org. We appreciate your time and attention today. Stay tuned for future episodes, which you can expect on the 12th of every month as we continue to tell the story of Enneagram Prison Project