Enneagram Prison Project (EPP) Podcast

Episode 4: Re-entry

July 12, 2021 EPP and friends - hosted by Clay Tumey Season 1 Episode 4
Enneagram Prison Project (EPP) Podcast
Episode 4: Re-entry
Chapters
Enneagram Prison Project (EPP) Podcast
Episode 4: Re-entry
Jul 12, 2021 Season 1 Episode 4
EPP and friends - hosted by Clay Tumey

In this 2-hour episode, some of our EPP Ambassadors share their stories of re-entry in a powerful and moving conversation about the moments before, during, and after release. In this poignant and insightful episode, fellow EPP Ambassador and host Clay Tumey inquires about our Ambassador's personal journey with the Enneagram, how they found EPP, and what it's like navigating life post-incarceration.

Show Notes Transcript

In this 2-hour episode, some of our EPP Ambassadors share their stories of re-entry in a powerful and moving conversation about the moments before, during, and after release. In this poignant and insightful episode, fellow EPP Ambassador and host Clay Tumey inquires about our Ambassador's personal journey with the Enneagram, how they found EPP, and what it's like navigating life post-incarceration.

Clay Tumey:

Hi, my name is Clay Tumey, and I am an ambassador for the Enneagram Prison Project. As we approach our 10th anniversary, we thought it'd be fun to sit down and have a chat with all the people who've had a major impact along the way, with VPP. Today, we're going to hear from other eppm ambassadors about what it's like to go from being incarcerated to now being out here in the free world with the rest of us stories of reentry. I enjoyed these conversations. My story is very unique to me, you know, it's maybe it's similar to other people. But for me, it's a very special memory, my first day out, I wanted to go get a certain flavor of soft drink, I wanted to go get a pack of bubblegum, I wanted to go to Chili's and have their chips in case of like, I had all these things that I've been looking forward to. And then I did and of course, I got to see my family again, you know, hug them sleep in a comfortable bed, take a barefoot shower, like all these things that you take for granted, until you go through an experience where you no longer have them. I will say as a bit of a disclaimer here real quick, or a Parental discretion advisory, I suppose is what I should call it. If you have kiddos in the car with you are within earshot of of the podcast, you might not want them to hear this. We have language, I don't bleep out f bombs or any of that stuff. So if you don't want your youngsters to hear that, and maybe don't listen just yet. And also, we speak about some adult content. And by adult content, I just mean stories of drug use drug addiction, relapse, stuff like that, nothing, nothing crazy, and nothing you won't find on TV. But you know, some folks might not want their youngsters to hear it. I'll say, as a parent myself, my 14 year old is fine listening to this, I would not have any problem with him hearing any of these conversations, and frankly, I would encourage him if he had any interest. So with that said, we'll carry on to the conversations themselves. These occurred at a picnic, an IPP, you know, kind of potluck dinner picnic thing daily that we did a few weeks ago in California, and I was fortunate enough to fly out and be there for it. And so I took my took my little goodies, my microphones and decided to drag a few of the guys over to the side and have some conversations. So if you hear you know, yelling and laughing and you know, screaming and noise and planes and all kinds of other stuff in the background, just know that this is happening in a in a park. And so that's what all the background noises are. Frankly, I think it adds to it. But that's just me. Anyway, so I will let the guys introduce themselves, and then the rest of the conversation will follow. Just give us like a brief introduction to who you are. So my name is Jeff Limon. I am Enneagram Prison Project ambassador. I've been with VPP for about

Jeff Limon:

five years now. Ambassador five years, learned about the Enneagram about six years ago while in custody. Prior to that I had a battle 17 year addiction battle with crystal meth in and out of jails for several years. Not like for a long duration, in our jails, and just suffering by addiction. Kids learn about the Enneagram, like I said about six years ago, and it was very transformative changed my life. What's the longest amount of time that you did at once? I know you said 17 years of addiction. Yeah, I've done a couple couple, three to three tier stretches. You've been gone for years at a time. Yeah, so I was gonna go for years, I probably didn't maybe total, just six or seven years, just six or seven, when it's when it's compared to like, people we know did like 20 years live. So I always think that I got off flight on the same day. I think I did, like three and a half years. And it was only one I didn't even do more than that. So I get that but still to you. Like when you're the one doing it three and a half years feels like a lot, six, seven years feels like a lot when I talked to my normal my normally friends. And they were hanging on Memorial Day this year. And I we were just like talking, you know, they asked me about it every once a while I just did the math. I said I probably did about six, seven years of my life like that. And then they just love each other all so long. That's a lied. I mean, these are my friends that I've had ever since I was 11 years old. They they you know, you know, disappear from them and stuff inside. They just impacted me when they all just love each other. You said that's a lot of time. Yeah. Because you're used to hearing people talk about 20 years. Yeah, I always, you know, and I think I shared this with you before like when paddling. I always feel like a little sometimes not always, but sometimes feel a little sheepish about my story. Like it's not tragic enough or like it's not gangster enough or whatever, you know, but the bottom line is, it's my story. I went through it and then yeah, that's it.

Clay Tumey:

So you've been out now six ish six years. I was lucky.

Jeff Limon:

Let's see incarceration, my last sentence was, I remember this Halloween 2013 it's the last day I use crystal meth. And then I was released November 7 2015.

Clay Tumey:

When? So from the amount of time from Halloween of 2013, you said, right, and then november of 2015? How? And I don't know, admittedly, I don't know a lot about addiction. I don't know, alcohol substance, you name it. I don't. It's not a word that I'm super familiar with, other than what I know from prison experience. And being around people, people who struggle with addiction. So how do you go from a lifetime? Or maybe I'm saying it too big. How do you go from decade and a half or so of crystal meth addiction to two years of not doing it at all? And I'm assuming and feel free to correct me if I'm wrong, and if you haven't done it since?

Jeff Limon:

Yes. You know, it's hilarious. I mean, like, it's difficult to quit on the streets. Yeah. The minute I'm locked up, but gone. I see people in jail, you know, everything comes into jail. We all know that. And I see people just sell all their commissary just to be able to get high in jail. And it's for me, that's, that's not my thing. I mean, I was a smoker.

Clay Tumey:

You were a good inmate.

Jeff Limon:

Yeah, I was a model inmate. I mean, I was I was a smoker for 20 years, and mathematic for 17. And every time whenever I would love to just cold turkey like, yeah, you know, that goes off. You know, I'd leave that the door. So what I want to talk more specifically today about and I'm going to talk with some other guys to get that first day out. You know, when you November, you say seven, like first week in November, okay of 2015 is when you got out? Yes. Do you remember much about the day you got out or like the last meal that you ate in prison or talking with people on the way out or anything like that? Just I remember people's just wish me luck in movies. I was told by quite a few minutes if anyone could do it, if you can. I don't I don't know. Like I don't remember. Unlike you'd rather I don't remember what my first meal was by remember, my parents came and picked me up. My octogenarian mother bless her heart visit me every week in jail. And they're the ones that picked me up. And I was fortunate to welcome back home to have a place to stay when I got out. So I don't I needed a point. I didn't look up people right away. I just want to be low key. Yeah. And I knew that they look at people like old friends and like old friends. Because I mean, the streets you know, they know right away when you're out. And I was I was immediately like, people would stop by or people would like, call me to my house phone because I didn't have a cell phone or anything that is your yard. Now Cool, cool, cool. stuff, like people would like wanna come visit. And like, I'd like under spread. I like a side of them outside. But so my first month or two is like that. But my first day, my first week, it was just so lucky. I didn't. I didn't want to go out. I just wanted to be at home and just decompress. Yeah, I did. The asked to see my daughter's, because one of the only things that I asked for was to see my daughters and their mother allow that to happen. But no, there was no big you know, I unlike other incarcerations. Previously, when I was younger, there was, you know, still people waiting for me. And then like, there, you know, there was like homecomings and stuff like that. Now, this last one, I knew that things were different. And, you know, I was already, too in my mid 40s. At that time, how's that, you know, it was time to change.

Clay Tumey:

People who have never been locked up? I think a lot of times, they think that it's just so simple to just get out and well, I hate prison. So I'm not going back. And they think that it's just easy to stay out. Do you find that to be the case?

Jeff Limon:

This time it was, but I had a, it was just so transformative to the experience that I had this last year. I mean, I mean that this last year, the last year of my incarceration, especially with learning about the Enneagram, and learn about myself, I just felt really well prepared on this one out. And when Susan asked me to look her up, when I got out, I knew that there was going to be some sort of source of support and belonging. And I didn't have that previously. And one of the first conversations I had, I'm not quite sure how soon after when it was released, but one of the first people outside of my family that I talked to was Susan Olesek. And thank God for that. Do you know how long it was after you got out? Not that long? days? maybe weeks? Yeah. So she looked over on Facebook for a number I think I can't really remember if she had mine. Maybe I gave them my parents. Maybe I gave her my parents number. I don't think she would have been allowed to give me her number while incarcerated stuff. But I think I gave her my parents number. I think I I'm pretty sure she called my parents house asking for me. Yeah, yeah. And let me let me backtrack with that. Other than Susan, one of the first things one of the first people I looked up or first conversation has was with goodwill to get a job to go work. Yes, because I knew that I needed to work I needed that. I knew that I needed to learn how to be responsible again. And so I got a little $10.30 cent hour job. You remember how much you may remember your first meal, you don't remember your first and I remember this clay because I was happy making $10.30 an hour. Happy to be working to progress and sorting and other people's garbage were basically in donations, and I was on the recycling line. And I was convinced that I was going to be happy doing that for a while I was just so thrilled. Not, you know not to worry about picking up drugs or having shootouts or being backstab or anything. That $10.30 an hour. In California, by the way. Yes. It said in Silicon Valley. Yeah. Was that, you know, a beautiful thing for me riding the bus was a beautiful thing for me.

Clay Tumey:

How long did you work there?

Jeff Limon:

I worked there for about two months. And then one of my good friends asked me to come work with him at a place where he was working that very word for several years. I knew him through your addiction. Also, he was doing a lot of time and totally said non cool or ma'am happy at Goodwill. I'm going to work my way up here. Then there's a working way up a goodwill because it's all re entry level and stuff. I was just really convinced I was happy there. But then he said, Come on. And I gave that job. I said, you know, and I quit good. Well, and I interviewed there and I got a job there. And that was another life transforming transformation right there was working with that company and that working for that lady, though, the president of that company.

Clay Tumey:

That's true. Yes. It's funny. You're You're very unique. And talking about getting out of prison. Most people will remember very specifically, like what they did their first I'm one of them, I can tell you, I can tell you my first day as if it were an entire, like full length feature film, okay, you know, which is like, that's just because I'm neurotic and crazy. So it's not a big deal. But you you mostly remember getting out being Loki going to work. And just like easing back into life.

Jeff Limon:

Yes. Just getting just getting used to it again. And I just want to be around my family. And I was so let down. I mean, at the time when all this was happening when I was first when I first got arrested, I was so let down. I was in the middle of like, there was a shootout at my house. I was backstopped by like friends, I thought were my super duper best friends in the game and shootout at your actual physical residence. Yes, there was a shootout in my garage as bad. It could just hide like, yeah, and yeah, and so but in retrospect, I'm very thankful because if that didn't happen if I wasn't backstabbed by my, quote, best friend in the game, I probably I probably would have went back into it when I got out. But it was a whole big confluence of factors that just backstab and just shittiness done toward me that just the whole time I was I said, I don't want any of that anymore.

Clay Tumey:

not alive. But yeah.

Jeff Limon:

What I also do remember actually is the pastor of my church that I grew up with grew up in, was actually the pastor at Elmwood that would come in, you know, yeah. So he's received recognized me

Clay Tumey:

now mod, by the way, for those who don't know, is the Santa

Jeff Limon:

Clara County means Yeah, yes. And that means you excuse about the jail in Santa Clara County, other than the downtown one. And I was telling my mom how I was doing the readings for father Dan, and she made me promise to get back to church. That was actually one of the first things I made a point of getting back in the church and let him know that, you know, I just got out of jail. I'd like to get my back life on track. So I just I lined up everything they could you know, church family, job. ebp. And it just stuck to that. Yeah, and my dad, my routine, what do you think?

Clay Tumey:

What do you think it is? And I'm only going to keep you for like another eight minutes. That's okay. Because I see the food is gonna be ready. The thing that people struggle with, in my opinion, when they get out is a staying away from the wrong people. Yes, be finding work immediately. And see just making a decision to have a plan. And even if the plan doesn't work, have a plan and execute the plan. And just in hearing you talk about it, like you checked off all the boxes, right down the line, even to like going to wear it. How soon Did you go to work after you got it? almost almost. I mean, within days?

Jeff Limon:

Yeah, those are the one of the first things I did.

Clay Tumey:

That's the number one thing and I'm saying that completely. Anecdotally, I don't claim to know the stats. Yeah, at one point I did, and I probably could find, but the math says, Get a fucking job. Yeah, when you get out, take whatever job you can go to Goodwill and work for $10.30 in Silicon Valley. Yes. That will make a bigger impact on staying out. Then, like so many other things. Thank

Jeff Limon:

you. It wasn't even that like you know, The because we only worked half day shift there. That's how you were like, it wasn't the $40 an hour that day, the $40 a day that was worth making. It was just add meaning and I felt like I was contributing to something that had a purpose. Yeah. You know, I mean, prior to that my life's purpose was serving the best math and doing it the right way. And in Santa Clara County. You know what I mean? Like, taking care of people that way, you know what I mean? Yeah, but dancehall is gonna be the best, you know, goodwill recycler, and then think of free like, hooking up with DPP? Because we were talking about this, though I didn't make up my entire life, it was a good chunk of my life. For the first, you know, a couple of years. I know, you know, incarceration. Yeah, definitely.

Clay Tumey:

One more thing is kind of unrelated, but a little related. If there's another person sitting here on the bench next to me, and they've never done time, they don't know anybody who has done time. And they've only known what they see in the movies and stuff like that. What are some of the things that you would tell someone who just knows nothing about incarceration and knows nothing about reentry into the free world? And it could be literally anything like, what are some of the things that you wish more people understood about living with that stamp on your back, coming back to the free world,

Jeff Limon:

that it is a stigma, and it's there are opportunities for people to succeed when they get out. And there's opportunities, as I've demonstrated over and over Part two is lots of people failing again, it's the support that people receive afterwards. Huge support, I mean, I probably owe a good chunk, you know, my life right now is so good. And that's, I fully believe that it's because of the support that I received when you know, not only from my family, and my friends that welcomed me back. But just ebp has been amazing. Just, I always talk about the Enneagram Prison Project in terms of the message and the messenger, you know, learning about the Enneagram learning about yourself, but you know, that's part of it. But a huge part of it is the messengers, and the people who deliver that and the support. And that's been huge. Yeah, that and for people that are my greatest advice for people that are planning on going in or that might get a timeout is volunteers, right? criminals. Yeah, well don't like if you find yourself fighting, by the way. I successfully do times because I don't try to live my life living outside life from inside. Yeah, I didn't. It's a good phrase. I didn't I didn't I wasn't one of those people on the phone all the time. It wasn't one of those people that are, you know, like, hitting people for money or waiting from alcohol. Yeah. Just did your time in the moment and you'll be alright.

Clay Tumey:

Some alcohol wasn't that big of a big

Jeff Limon:

problem. Don't get me wrong. I wasn't as you know, my first you know, my first my first few students, I would get lots and lots and lots of mail My name would be constantly called us up but like this time around, I was just like, you know what, I messed up again. Yeah. No, do two years okay to better myself.

Dustin Baldwin:

My name is Dustin Baldwin. I'm Type Eight. And mash. That's me. where we are today. We are at Herbert right, Hubert? Hubert, Hubert something some Park. That's the H. In the middle of redwood oak forest. A nice warm day, having a potluck people you think are here. Last I counted was 33.

Clay Tumey:

We were trying to guess earlier, what the number was going to be and I think a few people said like 35. I think my official guess was 35. I think Rick said like 50.

Dustin Baldwin:

I counted 33 before Alex and then came, but then I know since then, to a couple people left, but

Clay Tumey:

so 35 is pretty. Yeah. I don't think we had any money on it. I think we're pretty good. So what what I want to talk to everybody about today is in youth you've been locked up, right? How much time did you

Dustin Baldwin:

have three prison terms? And probably like 2020 to 30. county jail?

Clay Tumey:

No, you've been gone a few times. Yeah,

Dustin Baldwin:

I think I did the math one time and all together. I've done like 11 and a half years. Elder, I'm 38.

Clay Tumey:

Okay. And by the way, I hope it's implied, but I'll state it just in case. Like if there's anything you don't want to talk like, this ain't live radio, so we can cut it later. Or you can just straight up say I don't want to answer it like there's no wrong answer in anything. So if I get too nosy just be like, fucking chill hardware. How long have you been out this? Most recently? When did you get out?

Dustin Baldwin:

I got out March 8 2020. So a little over a year now about 1314 months ago.

Clay Tumey:

Do you remember the day that you got out? Yes. Tell me from as much as you can remember about that day from from when you woke up. Breakfast. I mean, literally anything you can remember about that day. from from from that point forward, you're smiling. By the way, I can see that you already started grinning

Dustin Baldwin:

well, so I was fortunate enough for this last, this last prison term I did, I was horse enough to where I got sent to the firehouse in sanquin. So anybody that has any kind of history in prison, wherever, you know, the firehouse is like luxury, that's, you know, your house to the outside of the prison walls. You're only 10 guys there, you know, and you there's no guards, there's just the fire captains. So it was it was a cool, cool environment. I mean, that's how my last year and a half about I was in prison. I

Clay Tumey:

call the firehouse

Dustin Baldwin:

because this actual firehouse, literally makes me work on the fire trucks, we do all the medical calls, you know, all the basic life support, advanced life support, we did all that stuff. So I remember, I got granted early parole, and took like, a year, some change to off off my sentence. And so I got notified about 45 days. They i when i got notified, they said hey, you're getting out 45 days where I thought I still had, you know, couple years, I was like, we'll close two years left. And I was like, you know, instantly. I was super excited. And, you know, calling everybody telling my family, all that stuff. And then after that dust settled, I was terrified. I was so terrified. And what's so scary about that? Well, I mean, a lot of it was Hey, I was thinking, did they make a mistake? Yeah, because I was sentenced to six years 85%. And I was like, Well, how is this happening? You know,

Clay Tumey:

that happens to where they say, hey, you get out in a month. And then a month comes? I go actually, nevermind. Yeah,

Dustin Baldwin:

yeah, I've seen that. I've seen that. So that fear was there. And then the big part for me too, is the fear of coming back failure, you know, I'm saying is that these are not meeting others or my own expectations, I guess, at least when I'm in prison, you know, everyone knows what's expected of me. And everyone knows what, you know, what I'm doing, or, you know, I'm saying, or, there's only so much that I could achieve, and I'm doing the most already. So then just that fear of, you know, of just not meeting all this dreamland, that fantasy lifestyle that I've been building in my head all these years in prison, like, you know, how my life is gonna be when I get out, and now it's like, okay, here it is. And I'm like, oh, how am I going to do this? You know, how am I going to execute this? So I had just a lot of fear with that. And then, also, I had other fears, too, because, you know, I was involved in gangs and stuff prior to this. And this term, I walked away from all that. I dropped out from everything. I'm cool.

Clay Tumey:

And that's a dangerous thing. By the way, people who don't know, prison life, gang life, anything else? It's not as simple as putting in your two week notice at work. Yeah. And leaving? No, it's more to it.

Dustin Baldwin:

There's much more to it. Yeah. And I was, like, I didn't hide it. And I knew, you know, I knew this time that, you know, everyone knew that coming out. So I had that fear of coming home to that as well. And I was like, you know, I've, I know a lot of other people out there who who left the gang life and they're being successful, and they're doing fine over then find out their supply, you know, figure it out, and I just stay away from everything and how my business, you know, just give everybody that mutual respect, hopefully, and it worked out that way. You know, and so I'm grateful for that. And

Clay Tumey:

so you have 45 days notification that it ended up being 45. It was Yes, it was 45 to the day. And it

Dustin Baldwin:

was Yeah, the whole time, though, is more and more scared. So what's funny, so, my last day in prison we got early in the morning, right? And so like I said, I'm in the small firehouse. We all have this great community, right? We always pull these pranks.

Clay Tumey:

Inmates 10 That's it. Y'all have your own bedroom. Yeah, it was like legit. We had our own bathroom like yeah, with a door.

Dustin Baldwin:

An actual twin size spring mattress bed. Yeah, that's what I'm saying. So it was like it was legit, but we always pull pranks on each other. There's this one kid there. Like I remember, I'm leaving first thing early in the morning and he was on the medical call that night. So you get these random calls, all hours of the night and you just got to run downstairs. You throw on all your fire gear your fire boots off and you're just jumping them and jumping the thing go. Before I left I got these two big old water bottles and I filled his firefighter boots with water and then I parole right and I completely forgot about it. And then like he wasn't even there to enjoy. I wanted to be there to joy but like a month later one of my other buddies I was in there with I still keep in contact with this. To this day this guy Jimmy. He calls me out when he gets out and the first thing he says like you pissed Alex off so bad. I like every day, I think About that, that's like my last memory of being in prison. But yeah, so I got out and then I got out right before COVID to march of 2020. Right? Yeah, I think hit the fan. Yep. So it was kind of that was a huge transition to actually, because I got out. And I remember my mom was telling me, they're talking about this stuff closing down, we're driving back home, and I'm just still nervous, terrified, just being out and actually getting carsick because I haven't been in a vehicle so I'm getting carsick or stuff, get home and then call my PO. And then like, two days later, he shuts down and my profit goes, Well, you know, everything's closed. So everything's just gonna be done by telephone. And I've never once this day even met my PO on paper no discharge sweet but

Clay Tumey:

going back to the day that you got out do you remember like waking up and knowing like or even before that they like in prison when you say I got a week left people don't say I got what week or whatever they say I got you know, they said got like three sleeps. Yeah, I don't know how y'all say in California but basically you don't say like normal two nights in a week? Yeah. I got two nights you got two nights in a wake up and then you got one you barely leave. Right when you were they wake you up at four in the morning right? So So what's it like getting out? what's the what's the process? Like the actual process of that come and wake you up?

Dustin Baldwin:

Yeah, yeah, that's exactly do they shine a bright LED flashlight in your face and slam on your door? Bollen backup your shit you're going home like that and then Samsung man but it makes your day Yeah, you jump up and you grab your little trash bag or whatever personal blind you're bringing in and then you go sit in r&r for like four hours and a little sell on our stand for receiving and receiving a release sort of yeah on our receiving really

Clay Tumey:

so they let you out just right there.

Dustin Baldwin:

No, you have to go through sit there and I there dude who knows what paperwork or? I don't think they're doing anything honestly because I don't I don't have no idea what they're doing or why it takes so long. And if you wait there for like a few hours Yeah, like two to three hours and then you go in the van will pull up and

Clay Tumey:

how do you What are you wearing when you get out? What clothes do you have?

Dustin Baldwin:

Well if you don't get sat nothing you they leave in a paper a little pale white paper jumpsuit. And essential clothes. No I had a I had clothes from the firehouse like so my back is close my hips. I paroled in Paris sweatpants and a sweatshirt and then some shower shoes.

Clay Tumey:

When they when they open the door and you're free to go. And you take those first few steps like what what is what is the to somebody who's never been locked up? How would you explain what it feels like to be released from prison? those first few steps

Dustin Baldwin:

it's it's almost surreal, like you don't really you don't know. You got like he's hard to take in. You don't really know. You know? You still like still think hey, is there a mistake? Is there Am I supposed to get out is something gonna happen because, you know, the all prison is nothing. There's no guarantees in prison, you know me that they, they that's just how it is. There's no guarantees, everything changes this and that, you know, I mean, and so you hear stories of people having committed other crimes and stuff like that, and then getting out and then a different county or someone versus right there waiting for them and take them in right then and there on other charges. You hear all these crazy stories and there's like, you just want to get in the car and put distance as much distance as you can. And and that's pretty much exactly I got in the car, and then a picture of my mom. Yeah. So I was right. When I got out I was super emotional course, gave her a big hug. And then as soon as we released in the hug, I'm like, I was like, Come on, let's get out here. Like, let's just go, let's go. And we get in the car. So you want to stop and he was like No, just go, go. Go. I don't want to stop nowhere. I don't want no food. I was like she's your getaway driver. Yeah, that's kind of how it feels like, Just get me out of here quickly. And even then, yeah. And then you get home and it's still

Clay Tumey:

so you went straight to the house. You didn't go to restaurant and it didn't go nowhere.

Dustin Baldwin:

I didn't want i just wanted. It was actually kind of weird. That's I did I just want to get back into what felt like a safe enclosure. I guess you could say

Clay Tumey:

you say that? Because I I've talked to a lot of people, you know, when you're locked up? I don't know. I don't know if it was like this where you were locked up. But with the guys that I did time with, we would sit around and talk about, you know, when we're getting out like, we would like fantasize, like, what are you going to do? Or Well, yeah, it's almost like a kid talking about what are you going to do when you graduate high school except with us. We're talking about what you want to do when you get out of prison. I'm going to go to this place. I'm going to have this steak I'm gonna have these fries. I'm gonna and you just talk about all this stuff. And so I've talked to a lot of people who know their first day out Like minute by minute I went here, I went to this place. I got this steak, I got this drink. And you and Jeff are now the first two people I've heard who just they just wanted to go straight home. Yeah. And get settled into something normal. Yeah and and skip the steak dinner. Yeah, I get the beer store. I know, I know. Go straight to the house.

Dustin Baldwin:

I wanted to get straight home. And then and then like I said, the COVID hit like literally like the, probably within within days COVID hit and then there was everything was mandatory lockdown mandatory quarantine. And I fled from prison to be locked down in the freeway. And I like followed that I did not leave the house at all for at least four months. And it was super easy for me. It was easy. I was comfortable by no I had no one lived at the house. But at the time my mom was living somewhere else taking care of my grandpa. So I lived all alone. And I just I still had groceries dropped off the whole nine like I was true. Yeah. And I was super super comfortable with that.

Clay Tumey:

Is there anything that sticks out is like when you first for me For example, when I when I first got out I got my whole day was pretty unique. And then I got home that night and I was staying with my mom too. And laid in bed so comfortable. So much different than we didn't have this fancy firehouse beds. Maybe that wasn't your experience of having like the fancy band and my mom's just felt like heaven. And I actually got up and took a shower barefoot it for the first time. Yeah, and years. People don't. I think maybe don't realize it in prison. You don't do anything barefoot. Period. It's just nasty. It's dirty. And you just don't do it. You take shower with shower slides. So for me like taking a barefoot shower was like a new whole new experience. Yeah. Do you have anything that was that was similar to that. Or anything that sticks out is like I've been wanting to do this for so long. And now I'm finally doing it.

Dustin Baldwin:

I mean I mean did things you know I think I kind of I kind of went right back into just normal normal life. Yeah, but because of the the quarantine honestly like I remember I came home and the first thing I did my got dropped off at the house and the for the first thing my actual the first two days. I was there. I literally scrubbed and bleached the entire house. Yeah,

Clay Tumey:

that's a very prison thing.

Dustin Baldwin:

That's the first thing you do in any new cell. Right And I did that to the entire the entire house like it was and that's for I just scrubbed and cleaned everything and then and then I purged i remember i purged and I had I realized I had way too much stuff. I had way too much stuff. Like

Clay Tumey:

it doesn't matter that

Dustin Baldwin:

I had too many clothes. I had too many just things that I used to you know just do the random stuff. That's my stuff and my dresses and that do because I was just I needed bare minimal easy little, you know, mean just by one all my stuff to fit in to dresser drawers. Like literally I was and I just I started just going through filling up. I filled up like maybe 20 trash bags of clothes, shoes, just random stuff. I've collected everything and just throw it away. Do you donate? Like could it donate it? Everything Everything was closed down? Yeah, so I sat on a lot of it. Actually, I had all these trash bags piled up in my garage for like, months, actually. And then finally I did hand out a couple bags to every time I see some homeless people walk in. I say you want some bags of clothes, whatever. Just taking and taking my bag. I don't know if they fit you or whatever. But here's take them and then whatever wasn't gone at the end. I just I threw everything else away somehow.

Clay Tumey:

How did you do? Like, you know if you couldn't go to how long was it before they allowed you to get out and go work and stuff?

Dustin Baldwin:

It was like three months? Yeah. Because it's Oh, I got out March. March, April. Yeah, man I got I started working in May.

Clay Tumey:

So how did you do? You just like, I'm just being nosy. So yeah, obviously, I have to ask you this. But how do you? Is it the supportive family like financial support with groceries or like how does all that work? When you just get out of prison? I save up money on the inside.

Dustin Baldwin:

I was definitely blessed with a lot of a lot of financial support. And you know, just to know, I was people looking out for you. Yeah, well, yeah, I had my grandpa passed away. And he left a bunch of money to my mom, aunts and uncles. And so I had that, that support right there for me. And then I also got blessed because one of my grandpa also left me his car. So I had a car too. Yeah, that was huge. And I was like, you know, there's the car is like a 2014 but at like 30,000 miles on it. You know, he's a particular brand new brand new, yeah, just car they sat there. So I was like, This is great. So I got blessed with that and Yeah, and then I was I even then I was like bare minimum? Because I didn't I didn't feel right taking, you know, like, I would go basic, the most basic bologna sandwich, you know, kind of shopping

Clay Tumey:

kind of living like you're still locked up. Yeah, not not literally because you feel free, you're in the free world and all that stuff, but you had us You didn't just come out and go balls to the wall now blowing all the money that you were blessed, which could

Dustin Baldwin:

have happened if it wasn't for COVID. Honestly, How so? Because COVID made it. So COVID made it to where even I did when I did have an urge to, to go out and go, you know, maybe go get a drink or go you know, mean, go just to the bar and hanging out or whatever, like, physically wasn't an option wasn't an option was not an option at all.

Clay Tumey:

So in a way, in addition to the financial blessing. Yeah. It sounds weird to say it this way. But the lockdown with COVID. And all that stuff was also a bit of a blast, I would say Yeah.

Dustin Baldwin:

Because not only that, but my only connection really outside of family with the outside world was eppp. Yeah. That was it.

Clay Tumey:

When you got out the house soon. And talking about your connection with ATP. First of all you did you did NPP on the inside, right? How many times did you go through the class

Dustin Baldwin:

of 2015? I in county jail, I completed the course. Four times, yeah. And then then got out, went back in yada, yada, then got completed another time in 2016. Then from there, I got released and went to a residential treatment program that Alex was running. Yeah. And yeah, then got connected with reconnecting there. And then with Dell, and prosa. And it's doing great had a relapse. And yeah, bury myself in that shame and that kind of stuff. And then back to prison.

Clay Tumey:

So this most recent time that you got out what, you know, and there's a lot of contributing factors to staying out. But this has been a while, like it's even out over well over a year now. And I don't know you as well as a lot of the other folks here do but from the outside looking in, it looks pretty good. Like, it looks like you're handling business, right? Yeah. What's what? I'm not gonna say it's easier now. But what makes what makes you? Why are you still out here instead of going back? What's keeping you what's keeping you on track?

Dustin Baldwin:

Well, so my first bout my fourth or fifth month out? I had a relapse. I actually was, was when I was cleaning the whole house. Right? trim the house, I found a little little bag with some dope in it. And I didn't throw it away. Kept it. And no, I don't understand. Really what led me to use other than Oh, you know, maybe one last time or whatever. I don't know, I'm not really too sure. The thought process. Other than I just had this urge and I wasn't. Yeah, the opportunity. I had the opportunity. Yeah. And I think that part of me was like, hey, maybe I don't want to change, you know, I mean, and so, and I used it, and I remember the it was the worst feeling ever. I was like this sucks. Like it literally sucked. I hated how I felt.

Clay Tumey:

Was it a bad thing I don't know a lot about have been fortunate to not have substance or alcohol issues. Yeah, I'm curious. Just from an ignorant perspective. I'm wondering, was it a bad high Was it bad though? was it was it No, all that was good, and you just didn't like it anymore? Everything?

Dustin Baldwin:

Yeah, I didn't it was I just didn't like it anymore. Yeah, it was a dope was good. Or did was, I just, I think it's like having a head full of self awareness. And a lot of knowledge from rehabilitation of classes and just subsidies and stuff. And then just kind of just seeing the direction My life was going. I kind of seen that I'm just self sabotaging. And I didn't. And it just wasn't enjoyable. It just really wasn't enjoyable anymore. So I pulled I literally told on myself, I first I I first went to work, and I told my boss I was like, relaxing hi right now, you know, and she was like, I To my surprise. She's like, would you use those I use men. And she goes, Oh, I've been in recovery for 20 years. I'm sober myself all boss, she's, you know, I was met this and that. She goes stay here, right? You know, and I'll be right back. I'm like, I'm at work sitting in the back of my home. Okay, if she walks out with the one of the store managers, am I Oh, great. I'm getting fired. And then the store manager comes out he goes on to recovery to goes Yes. slip up as well. I'm so glad you came. Talk to us about it. We're to plug you in with these resources and this, and that blew me away. Yeah. And I literally I remember I just started bawling. And because my plan was I plan was to tell them because I was leaving, I was just I'm not gonna leave, I'm gonna go hit the road running right now I'm gonna go on, I'm gonna go on a run, I'm going to rip and run, right. And I just kind of wanted to go and get my last check, honestly, and bail out. And then, but then I got that response from them,

Clay Tumey:

which is amazing and unusual.

Dustin Baldwin:

Yeah. And it did. It blew me away. And they did. And they fought for me. It's kind of one of the reasons why I still work there. Even though I don't like the job. I don't like working there. But it's hard to leave after that support they gave me

Clay Tumey:

and they still have the same super

Dustin Baldwin:

same people. And they're they're fast tracking me through the ranks. They've been promoting me there. They see it in me, they see that they see the change. And then that same night, we had EDP reconnecting group, and I told them to house like, this is what happened, you know, and then I got that same flood of course of support and all that. And then that's when I that's kind of when the that's when the real shift happened. Yeah, that real shift of knowing that I was done, knowing that, you know, Alex actually told me a great thing. He's all It's okay, if you slip as long as you fall forward. Right. Yeah. I mean, and that resonated really well with me. I was like, you know, because sometimes some people just need that, that reminder of that. You know, it's not worth, you know, just remember everything you love. Perfect. Yeah. So, and that was great, honestly. And since then, I've had no urge and no desire. No, I mean, I feel that you know, I mean, I know the difference happened, something, something changed. And I just knew that I was done

Clay Tumey:

did what an awesome series of events. I didn't know all that. By the way. I knew I knew a little bit, you know, here and there. But I didn't know. Like, relapse telling my boss, my boss goes talk to somebody else. They're in recovery. They totally look out for you. Yeah, this is corporate America, by the way they supposed to love you. Yeah. But you got looked out for and and then the response from reconnect, reconnecting. I mean, frankly, I expect that. That's what we do. We give a shit. Yeah. You don't expect that from work, though? Yeah, no. So that's kind of a trip do.

Dustin Baldwin:

Yeah, it did it Really? Kind of Yeah. And these are strangers that don't really know me, right. They just know that I'm some guy just been out of prison for a few months. Yeah. And, you know, I won't been working there for very few months now. And I was like, just kind of blew me away. And then so that was late last year, like fall last year ish. Something like that. See? Glasses around? Like, I want to say around July. Okay. It's about a year. Yeah. About a year ago. Yeah.

Clay Tumey:

I mean, everything's been I'm not putting words in your mouth. It's been easy. It's been smooth sailing. Is it been like still kind of working through a lot of shit? What's it

Dustin Baldwin:

been like? Honestly, since since then, it's been smooth sailing, like, like that, that that's that stinking thinking or, you know, I'm saying that you know that Toronto the proper way. But that just that that old that old thing like that old, wondering how the old people are doing or wanting to go rip and run and go and go see that that you know them dirty girls and all such stuff. Like all that's gone. It's not there. And it's it's much it's you know, a lot of it just came a lot of it just came in Word honestly, like my focus really changed just to you know, my son honestly, and my family a lot of change there to where I'm really like, kind of realize my importance in my role in their lives to where I've never really put value on that before, I guess. And now I do.

Chuck Stubblefield:

got off work at 830 when bought chicken and waffles and went home. And where were you on the night? Thank you for having me. Monday, name shot, Type One. Got into the Enneagram in sanquin best thing ever happened to me have been in different groups, going through the motions of going through groups trying to get my shit together and you know, change I know do go back to prison no more. But it was the difference in the Enneagram and all other groups I was in. It was the way that they they held space. Right. It wasn't for us like this is our program. You have to do this. this this and this. It was like more like a smorgasbord. Yeah, so to speak. It was like this way I have to offer check this out. If you're interested, I'm here for you. And it made a difference.

Clay Tumey:

How'd you find out about it? It was it. Did you know somebody that was already in the program? Or did you see a bulletin post or something?

Chuck Stubblefield:

A friend of mine. So in prison, I made greeting cards and pies. And so Saturday, I was delivering some pies Saturday morning, and the guy Mo, who I was going to deliver to on my week on such a hurry on Saturday morning. And I already have an event outside for a group of me. But I had no mo from the streets. I was from rival gangs, and hadn't seen him in a while. And he was one of the first people to embrace me when I got to St. Quinn. He was like, enemies. Yeah. And so I was skeptical. I was like, Okay, what is he up to? Why is he being nice to me. But I saw in so in retrospect of checking him out. I started following, so to speak, not right, we're sure but see what he's up to me. But I saw the change in him. He cared about people, he cared about the community, and I'm talking my way in prison, but he cared about people around. And you know, in the back of my mind, I'm like, I need some of that. But am I ready for it? Right? So that's basically how I got introduced. I was in a another group called kit cat. And they, they were talking about types and this and that. And this how things work. They mentioned Enneagram in KitKat class, and I sit down mode just talked about that this morning. That's not a coincidence. The same day, somebody is talking about a say so the guy said, Do you want to find out what type you are? I said, Okay, sure. went in there for like an hour. Went through the book, The first the yellow and orange book, there was no idea. found out I was a one with a nine wing, sat on it for a couple of months demo was like, Hey, I'm gonna invite you as a guest to my class. And that's how I started, man. That's cool. never would have thought it go like that. And when was that? What What year was that? That was 2000. The end of 19 2019. A couple years now. Yeah.

Clay Tumey:

So totally unrelated to that, but you brought up pies. So somebody who, you know, I know what you're talking about? Because I've done time, somebody who might not know what, how, what's the pie economy in prison? What's that? Like? is are you literally making a pie? Are you buying stuff off commissary, and you put some stuff together and you just call it a pie? Tell me what about the pie business?

Chuck Stubblefield:

So the five business today we're gonna talk about the pie business. People so this thing? prison food is I don't care what states were prison the shit terrible. So people always want people always love sweets. Right? And they always want something different. And I started by buying one from somebody It was hot. Yeah, graham crackers. It was sweet. Oh, like a teach me how to make that. And so it took a few trials and tribulations. So what I do is I pan pick apples. I wouldn't let nobody give me apples. Right? I wouldn't take none that's bruised. The best green apples or whatever it

Clay Tumey:

is where you're in prison.

Chuck Stubblefield:

That's We'll see. That's the beauty about prison. Yeah, nobody eats fruit unless they make improve. Oh, gotcha. So I would get fruit. pillow, give me a fresh razor, peel the skin off. Oh, and I bought them in my hot pie. and boil it in. If I was lucky to get real cnh sugar I you CNA and you serve jelly. On a rare occasion I'd use equal. Not much of it. But it's a little bit. This isn't just enough. And so for my crust, I'd use graham crackers and any cookie aka fine. And just smash them up, smash them up. And so my twist not I'm out of prison. My twist was I will put a little peanut butter to make them stick together. And then I'd make the crust at the bottom crust ahead of time. So when you put a little peanut butter in any cookie, and you let it sit out, it's gonna get hard, right? Well, ah, I had to do no baking. Yeah. So I will boil the apples. If I had peaches, or any kind of fruit, or nectarines or not nectarines, but mostly peaches though. And apples. Then I would do banana pies. Didn't have to cook them right slice a mile slightly boil a small batch and then take some fresh and add it to it because you cook bananas they get creamy. Yeah, right. I have my little show. Little sentiment.

Clay Tumey:

And what would they go for? What would you get for a pie?

Chuck Stubblefield:

I started off with big dreams. I will find out. Yeah, but it's pie, right? Yeah. But it depends on what prison you're in how the economy go. Right? I was a good marketer, I know who to ask the guys that smoke weed. The big bottles that want to be seen, but all the fancy stuff I targeted. But eventually, I got bowls and containers that will fit the need of any person I had from a 50 cent to find out. I was able to meet whoever

Clay Tumey:

as as, again, I know how it works. I've done time, but to the person who might not know what currency is on the inside. When you say $5 How do I pay you? $5? Do I have cash? Do I have debit card? Do I? How's that work?

Chuck Stubblefield:

So in prison, there was a time when cigarettes was a hot commodity for payment. Or some prisons they have duckets where you can go back and bomb certain prisons is different. The prisons I was at I would take regular commissary, but I would ask for specific stuff.

Clay Tumey:

So if I bought a pie from you, you say five bucks. That's okay. Bam. Five bucks. And then I give you a list. You give me $5 worth of groceries to buy. Right basically. Then I give you those commissary items. Yeah, that's payment.

Chuck Stubblefield:

Yeah, or that. I would take stuff that was already in your sale. You couldn't give me no $5 body wash? I'll find out a bar so I need to be something you want it that I use so. So they do they try they try so and so and let that be known off the top. Hey, I'll take this toothpaste, this type of toothpaste. deodorant. You can't give me those speech stick that burns and you're right. I don't take those stamps. None of that. very lucrative for me. Yeah, very.

Clay Tumey:

I can imagine. I remember so funny. I was just talking to somebody last night at a dinner we were having about pies and the dude. He called him something he called cheesecakes. But it was the same idea. He took graham crackers, mash them up. They didn't do the peanut butter thing. I probably would have paid a little bit more for that. But he would match the the graham crackers up make the crust do the filling with like, you know cream cheese and bread.

Chuck Stubblefield:

I use cream cheese too. So that was my little two that was a specialty. Yeah. I would add to the pies with a layer of cream cheese. And and one of the reasons straight up the pies were good. But people can come by and see me cooking. I'm fully clothed. I got a shirt I'm not in a tank top and shorts and flip flops. I don't know socks shoes. My mattress is rolled up. I got plastic down. I got gloves on. I got an apron. Right. The sanitary even in prison is sanitary, important. People see me cleaning my cell all the time. Especially today that I'm cooking pies. I get up like at four o'clock in the morning. Clean the wholesale make sure my salad and use the bathroom make sure he got somewhere to go with the with the carrot dangling. You got a pie coming to stay out my way. Yeah, right. And I enjoyed doing it though.

Clay Tumey:

Yeah, sounds like it was fun. I didn't plan on sitting here talking to you for 1015 minutes about pies. But I'm glad I did. But I'm not gonna lie. I'm kind of hungry. Now. I don't want to get some sweets. But I want to talk more about about your time in prison with the Enneagram. And then also your time coming out of prison. And specifically, I want to know what it's like that first day out, you know? And how long have you been out? I've been out, like 15 months now. So a little over a year you've been out. So it's been a little bit of time. But do you remember that first day? Do you remember when you got your date of release? Do you remember the process of waking up knowing I'm waking up in prison for the last time? What did you do? You know, when you got out? Where did you go was the first thing the whole as much as you can remember about those first, you know, 24 or so hours out of prison? What was it like?

Chuck Stubblefield:

I'm not one of those guys. That can tell you? I did 10 years, seven months. 13 days? Oh no. All right. I know when I went to the board in September and they told me that I was suitable for parole. I knew that my journey wasn't over at that moment because I still had to wait a little 90 days prior to that. So I kept going to groups. I kept doing what I had to do. So up until the night, the two days before. A no week before I was released. I was still born to groups. But that final countdown, I couldn't sleep. Yeah. Because I was trying to make arrangements to get picked up clothing. It was a mix up with beautiful People who came and picked me up. Marvin Munch and David Cohen. From bonified they do a lot for the people, right? They met me at the gate. I didn't sleep that night. I was up early, but they weren't. We have like at four in the morning, had to go sit in r&r fill out paperwork and all that. There were right outside of sanquin My face was glued to the window. God was like, Whoa, my heart was racing. And they was there. He said he'd be there. And they was there. It took me to this little restaurant. Said pick what you want. Would you pick pancakes craziest thing? The stuff did you say? Pick the pie. No. I ate pancakes and sausage and eggs. I really didn't want to eat but it was like hey, like that's what caught my mom. Yeah, they gave me a phone there was a time I had a phone in prison little flip phone.

Clay Tumey:

Not not legally by the way. not legally. Right different kind of cell phone. You ain't supposed to have it. But yeah,

Chuck Stubblefield:

I got in trouble for it. So I was like scatter fall from that point. Oh, they almost messed up me getting out of prison. Yeah. But he took me to eat the first thing I did was I called my mom. Do you remember that conversation? like it was yesterday? get choked up. To tell I was free. Yeah. Does hear her assignment. To this day is still touch. So, Marvin, my clothes didn't make it. So he took me to target. Pick what you want. What were you wearing? Some sweat. I mean, yes. I have prison clothes. No, no, no, no, no, no. They make you pay for those. Yesterday free is very expensive. Yeah, like $50 for a pair of khaki Friday still says California Department of Corrections on under some done. Nobody was bail bottom some shit from the 70s a moment. Some khakis. It was crazy. I had awesome sweats. T shirt. He took me to target picked up when he has some crazy. Yeah. These jeans I have all the jeans that I bought at Target. That's crazy. They fit they still. They still fit. Yeah. Yeah, well, that other stuff now. That's crazy. I didn't even trip on it. And I don't even trip that I still got it. Yeah.

Clay Tumey:

So you went and had pancakes. You called your mom you went to Target.

Chuck Stubblefield:

And it was like a whole new world to stuff had changed. I'm originally from Los Angeles. So I'm not sure about the Bay Area, but just to see the Golden Gate Bridge and. And I'm gonna use this word and I'm just being real. He was gentle with me. In a sense that this is what this is. When we went in the store. We went in our target. I was like, What the fuck? You know? If he took his time, yeah, right. He wasn't like, Yeah, he wasn't like, come on. We gotta go gotta he was like, hey, okay. Find somewhere. What do you want? He said, What do you want? Us and I was gone. is the first thing I bought. And he's like, God, I said, Man, I want some God. He bought he got the whole thing Wrigley's awesome. I don't want that much gum. Yeah, he only got one mouth. Yeah. I'm like, Nah, I just want some god man. He's like, you know, I said, No. And I chew the shit out of it was so refreshing. Yeah. And he took his time taking me to the transitional house, right. drove around the block showed me the city. Oh my god, this is the crafts right here. The tenderloin is like hell. But it was good for me. Because it was a constant reminder of what I don't want to be what I don't know not to nobody does, right. They're struggling, right, right. Yeah, and so I'm gonna fast forward I'm gonna tell you some funny stuff. Aaron's not here but a couple of weeks. I was out like two weeks. They finally let me out on my own without an escort. I decided I want to go to the mall. I had like an hour

Clay Tumey:

driving while I was walked

Chuck Stubblefield:

here. So I'm go to the mall. I went into mall. Light. I'm like, Damn a lot of people in here shit going on flashing that I didn't really trip at first and I was like, the beautiful thing about Enneagram or period about knowing yourself. You pay attention to your body. Since safe. Yeah. In the streets, I paid attention to him. I knew what danger was for the head. Right? So I think kind of awareness, but this was like some whole different shit. My hands were sweaty. I was sweating my arms. My heart was racing. And I'm like, What the fuck is going on? Yeah. People Was it the lights? He was everything's a sensory overload. There's just too much going on. So I backed against the wall. And all habits prison have a shit going on. I just backed against the wall not just look like I'm getting the hell up out of him. I didn't run. But I did a nice fast trot. a brisk walk out the door. But I called air. Yeah. Right. It seems like Hey, what's going on? I said, none. I just want to talk to you. You know, truth be told, you're tripping? Right? She said you don't sound okay. So yeah, I was just walking fast out of the mall. And she's like, Oh, okay. But I just needed to hear a reassuring voice. Yeah, right. Went home. Two weeks later, Aaron wants to come take me to dinner. She was one of the guys and sanquin

Clay Tumey:

and by the way, Aaron, for those who don't know, is a guide for ebp now teaches on the inside.

Chuck Stubblefield:

Where's she gonna go? She won't go to the mall. She's talking about walking into the and I'm trying to keep up with I'm like, Where are we going? To like, why not a nice place in the mall. I stopped dead in my tracks. And I hadn't been back to the mall system, right? If you turn around like, Hey, I'm like, walking in the mall. She's like, okay, so we walk around and she's pulling me by the arm. So we settle onto polti and she says what her back to the store to what you can look out so I had to have my back in prison that you never said what your back to the door. Right? uncomfortable, weird. But I got through it. And I told her I was mad enough. courageous enough to speak about what I'm going through. Yeah. If she was like, Oh, I'm sorry, this switch. I might know. I gotta get through this through. So let me back up to though. Upon release, I didn't know eppp had aftercare program. How I hooked up back with them was actually called just to thank them. For all that they offered me while I was in prison. What did you call a call Sue? Or hassles number. Okay. So now, she just so happened. That was her number that I had called. And it seems like oh, we have aftercare program. I was like she was saying you want to be a part of I'm like, yeah. And that's how I'm still a part of the program. Thankfully, I'm an ambassador now. Yeah. And it has helped me all to COVID I've maintained two jobs. My old apartment. I just bought a car two weeks ago. Congratulations. And life is progressing. The obstacles that the readjustment hasn't been as hard. Yeah. They're getting easier. The healing is still continuing. Right? I'm thankful man. I'm in a better place than I ever been in my life. And go into my weekly reconnections with epap helps out tremendously. And they come in today.

Clay Tumey:

Today's Ryan picnic by the way it got I don't think I've said that yet. We're at an EP picnic.

Chuck Stubblefield:

Ah, and just people coming up was like, hey, Chuck, I see on the screen that you did this for me, you you say so much as blowing my mind.

Clay Tumey:

What's it like being recognized by people that you don't immediately know? Like, when when somebody comes up to you that maybe you haven't really met or, or maybe don't remember or whatever, and they say, Hey, I saw you on the video. Blah, blah, blah. I experienced much of that. Like five people today? Yeah. What's it like?

Chuck Stubblefield:

It's rewarding. Yeah. Because no longer are people looking for me. I'm not.

Unknown:

You know what I mean? Like, Hey, I

Chuck Stubblefield:

know you guys were like, No, you don't know me. I don't know what you're talking about. I went there. No, I mean, it's not no more man. It feels good and not enough. I don't know to where but selfish way I know it feels good. And to note that I left a good imprint on somebody. When you How are you gone for three years.

Clay Tumey:

And that was all at once. It's all at once. So from what what is that 96. So from 96 from 96 to 2019 to 2019 or early 2020 when you get to 2020 January 29 2020 from 96 To 2020 world changed a little bit. A lot, technology's a little bit different, and underselling it. This shifts weird out here compared to when you were gone. I got locked up when I was seven. Before the iPhone and all that stuff come out, and then I got out at the end of 2010. And it was weird for me. But for somebody who's been gone that much time, that's a long ass time. As a lot of squares on the calendar was it was it like coming out and saying how different the world is? what's the what's the thing that was most difficult to get acclimated to get used to being like, this is life now and I didn't know this was a thing or whatever

Chuck Stubblefield:

sort of word is not was it is it is called is? technology. Yeah. I have two jobs. Why to sit at a computer? I still don't even know all the functions on my phone yet. Partly. I don't like the phone. Yeah, I don't like this technology. I like to interact with people face to face. I don't like texting. I got in trouble two weeks ago. I text my supervisor in capital letters.

Clay Tumey:

Oh, you yelled at him.

Chuck Stubblefield:

I didn't know that was a thing. I know. So just so happened. Another co worker overheard the supervisor talking about she was crying to her boss that Chuck was being disrespectful and mad at her. I'm like, trying to get my point across and

Clay Tumey:

over acting on her part. I'll say that. But I also I also know what all caps mean. So learning little stuff like that, that we take for granted. Why right? Because we slowly slowly learned it together as a culture. No. And you didn't?

Chuck Stubblefield:

Yeah, no. So it's still things. Like, crazy sound this last night, I learned to paste something in one text and go to open up a new page and transfer it Oh, I didn't know you could do that on the first copy and paste. I know, I'm like shit. This is gonna save time. I've been writing out whole new things. And I'm gonna just copy and paste. So just things like that technology, basically. relationships, kind of, thankfully, our good girlfriend. But people don't like to talk face to face. They want to text. Yeah. Text text me. Text me, I want to talk to you. I want to see you I want to write. So that's technologies.

Clay Tumey:

Tell people who they're about to hear from?

Renee Lopez:

Okay. Renee Lopez, Ambassador for Enneagram Prison Project. Type Three. I use all pronouns. And yeah.

Clay Tumey:

I like that. You say, by the way, I didn't think about that. And now that you said, I like that you say that you encourage I love the phrase that you use around this, by the way, I encourage the use of all pronouns. Yeah. And in our zoom calls, we usually have our little, you know, our pronouns in the in our title or whatever. And that's how we introduce herself. And I've never heard that phrase before, but I like it. It's totally unrelated to where we're going to talk about, but I did it. And I just want to say that I'm so you're an ambassador for TPP? What does it mean? Like what is what do you do? I know you grilled the day.

Renee Lopez:

Well, what else do I I'm hoping I live all the values of VPP and model that to the world. But I remember when Susan first told me in my my Type Three News. She's like, I think you could be an ambassador. And I was like, yeah, Ambassador, like to the UN or something crazy like that. Like, I was just like, it was a cool word. Right? And nobody's ever used that in the same sentence as my name. So I was like, Okay, cool. And I was like, Well, what is that? And she's like, Oh, well, you know, T the whole breakdown, you could, you know, you could learn how to guide others and come back in and I thought, I'm smiling at her looking her in the eye and I'm just like, Yeah, no, yeah, like, that sounds that that sounded like, like, going back in the going back in learning to teach other people how to, like get in touch or not, you know, not even teach them how to guide them into like discovering themselves. Like, you know, this is like my first probably my first full eight week course when I was incarcerated. And so like, I'm you know, I'm barely learning the whole system myself. And you know, there's a lot of things for me that were said that is, you know, a lot of big words, a lot of like things that just seemed kind of a little mushy, but you know, I knew I knew I seen myself in Type Three. I didn't know how I was one that one of those people had difficulties. It was easy. It was easy. So yeah, So when she told me to me, I was just like, oh, we're alright cool word. I'm with it. Smile interface that this. Okay, you know,

Clay Tumey:

so you're on the inside and she was already talking about you getting out and coming back in as a Yeah.

Renee Lopez:

Then you're like, Yeah, no, I smiled because I was just like, you know, alright, cool. Well, I don't you know, I guess I just didn't get like what it really meant it at the time. And so like it sounds fantastical you know, it's like, okay, like I can't even, you know, the minute I get out, it's like this gigantic struggle to stay clean. And then after that, it's like, it's like, I don't get after that. You know, it was just like, okay, that sooner or later I cave in and start using again.

Clay Tumey:

So how long from? She said, You said you went through the eight week program? Did you go through it a second time on the inside? Or what? Did you get out? Pretty soon

Renee Lopez:

after that? No, I took it like, Yes, I took it more than one time. I was there for roughly almost 13 months. Yeah, I took it like I think it was six. I was gonna start on my seven.

Clay Tumey:

Yeah. That was a wow. Yeah. So at what point? Did it change along the way? Like, did you see it differently? Did you start to see yourself differently? Like, or is there a point in that 13 months where the ideas that you saw at the very beginning? Or that you said it was fantastical, and all that stuff? Did that? Was it like a gradual shift along the way? Or was there like a pivotal moment that something happened? Do you remember anything like that?

Renee Lopez:

No, not not at not an exact moment, but I do remember. It, it kind of the the more like panels, especially that I saw of my own type of that I you know, that I was included in like, I started hearing more and more things. And and, and Susan, you know, bring more and more stuff out to other people. And I'm like, wow, actually, I, I never thought of it like that. But yeah, I do that, you know, but it's, you know, my fantasy is something different, you know, how I see myself doing it is different. And then it just all started making sense, not just one day, it just, you know, I'm one of those persons who has to see it over and over and over again. And then pretty soon, it's like, holy shit, this is this is like, I never thought I would understand instincts or you know, all this stuff that I know now, I just thought I was going to be happy knowing my type and, and learning the patterns.

Clay Tumey:

So so 13 months from the time you met her to the time you got out when you when you got and I mentioned earlier, I want to I really want to talk about when you got out what that was like the physical actual release from from incarceration, all that stuff. And I kind of want to show people who don't have an idea of what it's like to be locked up, what it feels like to get out. And especially for people who have specific issues that they have to watch out for. Because there's this, there's this Miss, quite To me, it's just ignorance, but it's the I want a nicer way to say that there's a misunderstanding about people who are doing time, people who've never done time, think it's just easy to just get out and don't get in trouble. Keep your nose clean. It's this not simple like that. Not easy. And so when you when you know, first of all, how long in advance, did you know you were getting out? Did you have a release date? like,

Renee Lopez:

Well, no. So like, I was gung ho there, like change. So I went in there, and I knew what I wanted to do. And so I mean, you know, this was my, my seventh sales case. So like, I already knew the whole get done. I said, Look, this is what I want to do. So I worked really hard at getting the early release program. So I so yes, I knew when I was gonna kind of get out, but it's like the it's like bed space of availability, and you got to pass this particular program kassu you have to pass the sheriff's. Like they have they do a background on you. So it's so interesting, right. Like, you should have all the background you need. So you have to wait for that to come back. And so so I had a rough estimate, you know, that I was going to get out.

Clay Tumey:

Do you remember the day that you got out?

Renee Lopez:

Oh, yeah. Yeah, I got out on because it was in the same month. I got locked up and but like later I got on December 27 2016. It's been a while. Yeah. 2016. I got arrested on the ninth of 2015 and then got out on 27th of 2016.

Clay Tumey:

I want to talk about how much of that day Do you remember by the way? Well,

Renee Lopez:

it's interesting. I remember. I remember big pieces of it. The one big piece that I remember it's so funny because I was so excited. I wanted to tell Susan I was like literally like we were waiting for peaty come in to teach that day. And my door clicked. And I was unlocked. Yeah, my door unlocked. And when it popped, I was like, Oh, yeah, I'm thinking it's ready for, you know, it's time for class. And by this time I'm like, familiar with, you know, was at a time Susan would come and she'd bring other people. And it was it's funny because that's the first time I ever seen Dana, the day I was getting out. And I don't think I've ever told Dana that, like, I came running down and I was like, Who's this? You know, I was like, we're Susan, and Susan was there. But like, Dana was coming in she she had her hair up, like she always does, right. And I was like, as I'm leaving, and she's like, Oh, good for you. Like Dana said to me, and I was like, I was stuck. Because like, you kind of started I want to, I want to get the heck out of there. Right. But I'm like, I want to tell Susan, you know, I become, you know, real cool with her. And, and she's the one who's like, here, you know, get a hold of us when you get out. And so then I finally seen her and she's like, Oh, great, great, you know, but that capsule Do you want to leave or not? And I'm like, Yeah, I know. Normally, I'm like at the door, like waiting to go with all my, my garbage bag full of stuff. So I remember that. And then you know it, I can't really remember the because you know, every time we get to use the same process, so like there was the same as every other time. For me, at least I wasn't thinking anything different because I'd gotten released on ketsu. before. So I was like, Okay, I

Clay Tumey:

mean, because I term is not one that I'm familiar with.

Renee Lopez:

So katsu is custody. Alternative Sherif sheriff. Sheriff authority. Okay. Yeah, so it's alternative custody. Okay. And now you're halfway house versus Yeah, no, well, it's, it's, instead, the alternative part is instead of doing your time there in the jail cell, I get released to the sheriff. And then I complete that part of the sentence. Excuse me out, out on, like, being highly monitored by the sheriff department. Like they you have to have like a whole plan that, that they set up for you. So after you get your background check back.

Clay Tumey:

So you're free, but you're heavily supervised? Yeah.

Renee Lopez:

Yeah. Really, really, really heavily supervised. So you go to like home to everybody else's, like kassu so that it's easy for them to you the there's five guys here we come and shake down your room and check you does this feel free?

Clay Tumey:

I mean, does it feel like you're actually free at that point? Or does it still feel like a mild incarceration of some sort?

Renee Lopez:

It definitely feels like a mild incarceration, but you're out. And but I was out. So I was like, Yes, I'm, you know, at this point, I'm on to six years, eight months, and I've only been in custody for like, a year. Yeah. Or 13, almost 13 months. So it to me, it was good, you know, and then I remember going into the re entry Center, where, where I'm doing the same right now. I was helping Laura Laura Hooper to facilitate an EP p class. They're just this past Wednesday. And so I go there and I remember them had to sign like you sign all of these papers, right? So I'm signing all the papers and I'm just like, I want to see I want to see my family. But that's not that's so that's that's the part that makes it feel kind of like still being in custody because they're like, Okay, well, you still have X amount of years left on your sentence. So the first six months we're taking you to salvation army. And so I went from from this like little holding Center at the reentry center, and then went to salvation army. And then you live there or Yeah, yeah, I didn't get to see my mom after that till like, it was almost It was almost 90 days.

Clay Tumey:

Yeah, so that's for most people the best part of getting out is getting to see their people getting that first hug. Yeah, maybe for some it's going to have a steak or beer or whatever. But for the most part, people are excited to get out and and hug that person that means the most in their life, or at least means a lot. And so you go from thinking that's going to happen until you know like right away and then now you think actually it's gonna be 90 days.

Renee Lopez:

Yeah, exactly. And then I was getting like news from my cousin. Oh, you know, there's something wrong with your mom. And I'm like, What the hell like what does that mean? Dude? Oh, you'll see when you get out. I'm like, bro don't do that don't have anything either. You should just don't say nothing Lego. You have me stressing out over here. And I was I was it was highly stressful because then I couldn't really talk to her and I didn't know what was going on. My the Reverend in my church went to see her and said, Oh, she seemed fine. And I'm like, what does that mean? And then, then I went, and finally, after 90 days, she came to see me. And then we got a pass to go, just to go to hang out at her at her house, her house. The house, I lived in the apartment I lived in before I got arrested in. And then I started to notice stuff. Like she was asking me questions and like, I hugged her, and that part was good. You know. And then we went and I went to my house, and it looked crazy. There was it looked like a homeless encampment, really. I was like, my mom's living here, like, what the hell and and she just, you know, she was in the very beginning stages of Alzheimer's. So it was, it was it was stressful, because they were also like, coming to repossess her car. She was getting evicted from her apartment. And so I had some choices to make. And it was it was really hard for me, because, you know, I'm thinking to myself, I could just get my mom straightened out, and then I'll deal with, you know, I could go basically on the run and straighten this out with my mom. But then it was just like that. That was like the same. That was the same game, right? Or at least that's how I looked at him on minuses. This is like a repeat. Something that. Like, this is the same old story. How many times have you have you done time? Have you been arrested more than more than once? Oh, yeah. Yeah. Like I've seen this. I was in my seven sales case. I've spent the last 18 years in and out. Yeah. And now jail, prison. What's the longest you've gone from release to re arrest? You know, the longest I'd like yeah,

Clay Tumey:

like from the time you've been released until you got arrested? Again? How much time? What's the most amount of time you've so

Renee Lopez:

this time? And then the time before that? Yeah. Well, I haven't got re arrested this time. Obviously. Before that. It was it was a it was almost 11 months. But before that it had gotten down to like I could get arrested within I don't want to three months. Again, what's different?

Clay Tumey:

I mean, it's been rolling up on like, you know, half a decade or whatever, you know, since you've since you've got out, and you don't I mean, again, this is like I said with Dustin, it was from the outside looking and I'm not in California, and I'm not around everybody. But at a glance, I don't really see that there's any concern with you going back? What's different? Well,

Renee Lopez:

one, I like I said, when I got arrested, I was like, it's funny when I hear Vic say, I was, you know, I think the cop I didn't necessarily think the cop. But I did in my like, I felt such a sense of relief. I was like, ah, because I'm you know, I'm gonna I'm addicted to meth. And if the minute I take it, I go to prison. I mean, not the minute I take it, but yes, when that's when the domino. That's the first domino. Yeah. And it is not, you know, it can be from, you know, one to six months, but I'm going I'm going this that's the, you know, that's the evidence. And so I there was this the first time I ever felt relief to get arrested because I knew I was gonna stop using and, and I was just there, man, I noticed that there was a real difference. Like, there wasn't a lot of individuals who are my age. With me, they were like, really old or really young. You know, I'm at that point, I was 30 about 38. And, and I was like, Oh, so so where'd the rest of them go? You know, what, Are they dead? Or as they grew up, they grew up or whatever. I don't know what that what happened to them. But it was impacting me when I when I went back the time before that. And then and then this time, I was just like, No, man, I needed my life to be different. You know, some other things had happened. You know, I got my house ready with my mom was like, on their sick bed. Just a lot of you know, yeah, ridiculous stuff. You know, and I and I, I just realized that wasn't the life I wanted to live. And so this incarceration, like, when when I got out, and I had that opportunity to make a choice. I stayed right where I was, even though I felt like I could help my mom in the short term. And I was really, really, really scared. what was gonna happen to her with regard to health? Yeah, yeah, she hadn't even gotten sick yet. But she was just with her Alzheimer's, like on the you know why she didn't even have that diagnosis. I just knew that there was like, she kept asking the same question over and over. And so I got really scared and then I was just like, well, I'm just going to, I'm going to do what they say, I'm going to see I'm going to trust this process. And and at that time, I didn't even I wasn't even engaging with the Enneagram because I had to stay that six months in Salvation Army and I remember the first chance I got to get away from there. I went to reconnecting with which is an EDP app. Yeah, basically program. Yeah, but each step, so this time wasn't like the last times where I would get out and just be like, just just like that I would like I would I would get a beer. Yeah, just like that get a beer. Because that's

Clay Tumey:

what you want the whole time you're going yeah, you think about all the things that you're going to do when you get out. Yeah, that you can't do on the inside. Yeah, for some people, it's a beer. For some people. It's a steak. For me, it was a pack of bubblegum and to each country. thing, yeah, that they want to go. And you don't really think well, this is going to be the beginning of my next trip. Yeah, and you just think of, I just want something that I haven't had in a while. But I think there's a pretty common thread among people who've got out and stayed out, that they changed something they didn't get out and go have that beer, or they didn't get out and do all that stuff. So when you when you got out and of course you had to do all the other shit. But when you were like actually free to you are now free to make your own decision. Where did you do?

Renee Lopez:

Well, I will give the sheriff's program that much I was kind of like already on a good path. So when when I was at Salvation Army, I went directly from being at Salvation Army to having a job as a truck driver there. Yeah. So the chat window when they're like, okay, your your cast Seuss quote, unquote, sentence is done. A year later. I was just so used to the process, you know, of being being in that in that in that way, but I was still on probation. So I said, you know, what, I'm just gonna keep doing what I got to do. And see what happens, and things just like that, but but by the time I got to probation, I was like, I was deep into eppp, I was doing all this recovery stuff. And, and I really had built some communities that, like, normally, I don't have any support at my mom, you know, which is, which is a place to sleep and financial part, which is not just, that's, that can be a lot more than other people have. And so, you know, in this time, that was real shaky. For me, that was another thing that was real scary, because, like, I relied on having that place to lay my head, whether it be on the floor, you know, or whatever, that was always there. And this, this becomes a real thing. It was it was a good possibility. When I got a Salvation Army like that, I don't, you know, I didn't even know what that looked like. And, and so I just continue to do what they told me to do. And I was like, real mad because they were real. You know, it's probation can be so ridiculous. They want you to do all these extra things. My, my, my motivation officer to Yeah, she was like, oh, I'll work with you. Just let me know what you want. You know what time you go to work. And it's cool. I work around you every single time. She wanted me to come in at 10 o'clock in the morning. I said, I start at seven and I get off whenever my route is done. But if you say hey, I want to see you on this day, I can come I can tell them I need to be off at a certain time. But you she's like something to surprise come in. Yeah. And I'm like, I'm in the middle of work like you got it. Yes. Well, she was just like that. Anyways, that's that that, Oh, I'm gonna come by your house. And then I'm sitting there waiting for her to come over come no. Surprise, surprise. Yeah. And then I'm calling her leaving her messages. And she's like, well, what did you have something to do? Maybe I'm right. Yeah. Why wouldn't I? Yeah, she's like, well, you go to work and go home and Woody. Is there something else you need to do? And this stuff? She's telling me and I'm like, Man,

Clay Tumey:

that's a whole other conversation man that I wish we had time to talk about because I think people don't realize how a dumb parole probation is, and be how ill equipped and educated the people running it are. But I won't get on my soapbox. today. I'll leave that alone.

Marty Walters:

All right. Yeah. Hi, my name is Martin Walters. I call me Marty. I'm Type Four. In the Enneagram love in this experience, it's been very emotional being out here and yet very peaceful at the same time. So that's pretty much pretty much where I'm at in the space right in the moment, guys.

Clay Tumey:

I wanted to start off with what I haven't done this yet. I keep thinking it'd be funny to start with. You has a right to remain silent. Anything you say can and will be used against you and the blah, blah, blah, blah, blah. Right? How long has it been since you've heard that?

Marty Walters:

1988 was the last time I heard that? Yeah. right to remain silent. Anything you can say and will say will be used against you or maybe you CNC?

Clay Tumey:

Yeah. And you regarding quite a while. Yeah. 32 years. Wow. And you've been out since

Marty Walters:

what was the date? Your release? was released on February 3 2020. Just before COVID How was that? What was that like? Um, well, it's like being born again for me, when I got out. I didn't really know what to expect.

Clay Tumey:

Did you? Did you know your release date? pretty far in advance? Or did they just surprise you one day? They basically told me on Friday afternoon, you're going

Marty Walters:

what he says gone to the feds on Monday, but they actually released me on Monday. So I knew probably 4045 hours, well, somewhere around maybe 60.

Clay Tumey:

And I don't know what that would feel like being gone for 32 years, and then have a little more than 32 hours to prepare for the free world again.

Marty Walters:

Yeah. I'd say it was definitely a surprise. I mean, I was found suitable, but probably 150 days before that, that said, maybe you will get out if there's no Gov action. And then, everybody I knew was getting out in like, 118 days, and it was like day 158. And they let me know. And so yeah, it was definitely scary and unnerving. And then, you know, I got out and, you know, it just seemed like, like, the people were just driving super crazy, super fast. We're going like, 45 going over the Richmond bridge. And I was like, he's like, you might want to hold out and people get sick driving over this thing. And I'm like, how fast There we go. He's like, 45. Yeah, I was like, Damn, feels like we're going 100.

Clay Tumey:

That is, I've heard that for more than a few people, I experienced that myself as well. When I when I got out and I was going to drive, just go for a drive, just want to hide a car that I just wanted to go get out and, and really push the limits and see how fast I could go and just feel my freedom. And I was just hauling ass to the point that I was starting to get a little scared of the speed. And I looked down and I was doing not even 50 miles an hour. Because when you're gone that long, dude, it's your body does, it does not just immediately get used to going fast. There's a lot of stuff. When you go from being incarcerated to being out in the free world. There's a lot of things I think people probably wouldn't realize happen. Like, it's not just easy. Oh, no, wait for this plane to fly by, by the way real quick, and then I'll finish my bag should be good. But when you go from being locked up to living out in the free world, there's a whole bunch of stuff that I think people probably don't realize. It's kind of a shell shock, whatever you want to call it. Like it's a bizarre thing. What were some of those things for you? You mentioned the speed. What were some other stuff?

Marty Walters:

Technology probably a big deal. Undoubtedly, one of the things that was kind of interesting was that I thought that people could be able to tell that I just gotten out of prison just by a look. Like for some reason I seem to think I can spot people have been incarcerated, previously incarcerated. And I thought that they could, but to my surprise, I got out and everybody was looking at their phones. Yeah, they couldn't care less about me at all. I got to know buddy death aidid. So while in one hand that was really relieving as far as like feeling guilty. And on the other strange part, I was like, Well, how do you connect with people if they don't have any conversation. And so that was part of the surprise for me. I mean, obviously, the cost of things. I mean, gas was like four bucks. And it was at nine cents when I left, milk was like $1. And now it's $4. And same thing. I mean, everything was like four times as expensive as it was when I when I left and so and then obviously COVID happened and in ways it was a mixed blessing because, like I'm super emotional anyway. So like, on one hand, I think I know that I needed the space from other people to kind of like know who I was. Because you know, it's a new life. I'm a new person in a lot of ways. not doing any of the same old the things I used to do, or the way that I saw the world was almost the exact opposite of it was when I went in and so I went in I thought it was a super scary place I came out I thought it was a super loving place. That it was nobody cared about me to so many people care about me. I don't even know how to give back. And then so that was definitely different but so all those different things, the price of things, the way that the speed of things. And then, you know, I think like the products in the store was a little nervy like, you know, there might be 10 different kinds of cereal and now there's like 400 kinds, you know, 10 different sodas and now they're like 200 You know, it's like, well, what's good and what isn't? And they all look the same. And then how do you how do I choose? So that was interesting. And then people would ask me questions, well, what do you need? And I'm like, I don't even know what I need. Because I think you should be telling me what I need, even though in their minds like, That just sounds ludicrous. But I think it's like, I really don't know. And everything was different. Like, the clothes we wore, we went from elastic band waistbands to Well, what size are your pants? What is your length? And it's like, well, you know, in prison, it's elastics. Yeah, yeah. And it's whatever length and you just sell it later, right? It's like, 40s length or something. And so that part was strange. And then fashion is obviously different. Yeah. You know, like,

Clay Tumey:

so in retrospect, now that you've had a little time, you know, between the time you got out now, you said February of 2020, right? Correct. What did you need? Like you at the time? Maybe you didn't know. And they were asking you, but if you could go back now and be the guy from the future? Like, what would you have? What would you have given to yourself? What would you have told yourself? What would you have? dot dot, dot, whatever? What did you need?

Marty Walters:

I actually needed a technology education, right? I mean, people are talking about, oh, yeah, you just go on the internet. And you can do all these different things. And, you know, I'm looking at and I'm like, I don't recognize any of these symbols. I don't know what this means. I click on that button. I remember you and I had a conversation. Like, you don't just click buttons, because you're gonna have it outerspace. So we're right. At that, I thought this would do this. But now I can't see anyone I don't know where I am, how to get back. So those kinds of things were interesting. And then, you know, I'm expecting people to be in, you know, in person. And so that wasn't happening either. And even when I was in person, like, I went to the DMV, and they're like, well go to that kiosk over there. And I'm like, what's a kiosk? You know, and they're like, push buttons, and I'm like, Where's the mouse? It was touchscreen. Right? And I was like, I don't I don't get it. I feel really, like insecure or napped? Or did you

Clay Tumey:

feel like the world kind of passed you by?

Marty Walters:

Definitely. I definitely felt like the world passed me by and they weren't looking back.

Clay Tumey:

No, no concern or desire to help.

Marty Walters:

There was but the way that people helped, like, it didn't seem to work. Like I'll give you examples, like I remember. My log on to something and somebody was like, coaching me through the process. And they're like, okay, it says username. And they would say, Well, I clicked on it, and I don't have to put in a username. What? What is that? Or what's your password? I like, I know that I call mine auto populates. And I'm like, what does that be? And why is it my doing it? And this isn't helpful because now I feel even stupider or more inept, because everyone, including six year olds know how to do this but me, right, and even the guys that got out before me, they were relying on girlfriends to just do it for them or, or their brothers or sisters or some I'm doing it for you. So it was like, we didn't have that. Yeah. And I didn't really have that Camila helped me tremendously. Actually. She did. She was on my phone doing zoom or something. And I was or WhatsApp and I was showing her what I was looking at. And she was just like, okay, go up there. And like, literally walked me through it as if she were sitting right in the room.

Clay Tumey:

Camille is not too bad, she's alight..

Marty Walters:

I'm sure there are batteries. Okay. basics like home. What does that mean? You know, what she did? Great? Well, I'm sure that there are people with extremely, you know, extraordinary skill,

Clay Tumey:

I just happen to be well, I wasn't one of them. And, but when you get when you get out of touch with something over that long period of time, and it's not like you were out of practice, it's not like it was a thing that you stopped doing for 32 years, it was a thing that didn't exist. Correct. And it was a thing that, you know, like I was talking with one of the other guys, we progressed as the technology progressed, so we it was it was technology was zero, and we were zero with it, and then it went to one and we went to one, two, and so we kind of went up and to the point now to where it's like, you know, level 170 and we're right there with it, because we've been going step further, but you got locked up at level zero, and you got released at level 170 or whatever. However, that's the now As I say it in my head. And that's why it makes sense that it would be what's intuitive to me would be completely foreign. And unintuitive. For somebody who's been gone that

Marty Walters:

long, true, I mean, Windows 95. Think about it, like gooey system, right? Like that didn't exist. It was green. Basically, X's and O's, right. It was just a bunch of, you know, at most letters, and it could do math. Yeah. And then that was it. Like, who wanted a computer? Why would you? Which is expensive calculator?

Clay Tumey:

How much of your first day out? Do you remember? I remember a lot of it. Yeah. Do you remember? Did you get lit out early in the day? Was it? Did you eat breakfast that morning? Did you skip it? Because fuck prison food I'm

Marty Walters:

done. I didn't eat, they don't really feed. They don't serve at that hour. So they got me up around. Three, and then I left my cell around five. And breakfast is usually comes around 530. And then I sat in the holding cell till about eight or they took my pictures and gave me an ID and had me fill out. Like medic, get my Medicare forms and stuff, which was for Marion County, not where I was going. And so I got some dress outs from some program eirp and then and then, you know, I just put them on, they didn't really fit. And then it's like, oh, well cares, you know. And then I just walked out with some my paperwork. And you know, say goodbye to the people that were awake and below their Ma. Yeah. other inmates who are close by you feel like you're leaving friends? Absolutely. I told people this for years. And I know I'm going to suffer survivor's guilt. Because I feel guilty anyway,

Clay Tumey:

because they're still there. And you're not. Yeah, I knew that before I was found suitable. Yeah, by the way, you said that phrase earlier found suitable. For those who don't know, that's just a term that describes that they've decided that you're suitable for parole? Yeah. Correct. And that doesn't mean necessarily that you're getting out right away. Or like at all, it just means that you're suitable. Should the opportunity arise, and they decide that you should get out. Yes. So that's like, the term itself is a little misleading. It probably gives hope to people who never get out, maybe I don't know, how often do people just not get out when they're found suitable?

Marty Walters:

Many times many people were found suitable in the 80s. They're still there today. You know, so often? You know, I think it was like a, I would say there was a point in time from 2000 to 2007. Like, it didn't matter if you're found suitable, meaning the board found you suitable like, okay, you should we think that you don't pose a current risk of danger to society. And then the governor just take it from you in that 120 or 150 day window following that decision. And that would happen 100% of the time, a lot for many of those years. And then I want to say then, like 90%, and 30%, and 20%. And then a standard stays pretty stayed pretty close to 20%. In the last 32 years, that they would take 20% of the dates that people were found suitable.

Clay Tumey:

So going back to the day that you got out, you did the book, your early to do thing, you got your pictures and all the other crap that they do. And you and you say bye to the homies. Yeah. And then you walk out the front door. Yeah. Yeah. What's the What does it feel like to be in prison for 32 years? And then step outside as a free man.

Marty Walters:

I mean, it's emotionally it's overwhelming. It's, it's, it's like a dream, for sure. So it's almost like falling into a dream state. And then, like, when are they going to pull me back in? You know, like, they're going to change their mind. And that that stayed with me for probably the first 11 or 12 days.

Clay Tumey:

You're talking about out in the free world. Yeah, you're they let you go. And you're thinking they might change their mind and come get you. Yeah, and it's a real concern. It's not just a random paranoia. That's a legit concern that you feel like that.

Marty Walters:

Right? I really honestly feel like they're gonna come and get me. Do you

Clay Tumey:

still feel like that? You know, 13 1415 months down the road? Not anymore.

Marty Walters:

I think that probably. I want to say after about eight months, that concerned is appeared but then there's, they're gonna violate me for some kind of petty thing.

Clay Tumey:

But violate you mean your parole will be revoked? Yeah.

Marty Walters:

For conditions like talking to hex felon who might be living in my transitional house, right. Like, who are these people?

Clay Tumey:

I got news for you by the way, I'm an ex felon. Is this podcast gonna get you in trouble? That's a great question. I don't think so. I don't really think that far I don't need to jack was somebody first?

Marty Walters:

Maybe? I'm not really people, man. I know. I know, people and Yeah.

Clay Tumey:

Do they approve stuff like this? Like the picnic? Because there's clearly there's, there's a there's a handful of ex cons here?

Marty Walters:

Um, that's true. I don't really know the answer to that they don't. It's, I'd like to think or at least my interpretation of the rule is like, you know, they don't want criminal minded ex felons hanging around with criminal minded ex felons. I mean, I'm a substance abuse counselor with people that are convicted felons in my classroom, I live with them.

Clay Tumey:

Logic dictates that it's okay. Common Sense says it's okay. But the way that the rules are written notes,

Marty Walters:

right. Sometimes they I mean, you know, sometimes sadly, you know, that's the experience that I know is, you know, they arrest you first and let the judge figure it out later. But in the interim, you know, I'll be sitting in a jail or prison for four months trying to figure out what exactly happened. And there's a, there's legitimate concerns with that in the 80s. And 90s, we probably wouldn't be sitting here, you know, I'd probably have to have passed and because it was that way.

Clay Tumey:

So you, you know, live in 12 days after you get out, you're still worried about going back or potentially going back because they changed their mind or some of the things what were some of the good things, particularly in that first day, first 24 hours for 48 hours, whatever. You get out the experience, because I've heard a lot of people say this, and I feel like I experienced this. The air. I don't mean to be cheesy, so like, please, please tell me if this is not what you're experienced. But the air going through your body feel different. The ground feel different under your feet? Did the trees look different as the ground feel different to walk on? Did you walk barefoot? Did you? Did you enjoy a barefoot shower? Like all the things that somebody who's never been incarcerated would never even think about? Like, what were some of those experiences for you if they existed at all?

Marty Walters:

It totally existed. Like I said, I'm very sensitive to stuff. There was times when Yeah, the air smelled pressure, the you know, just touching grass, everything. It was super, super tactile, and just feeling the fabrics of everything. There were times I was walking, and my friends would be laughing. I'm like, hold on a bit, I need to sit down by this tree. And they're like, What is wrong with you? You're crazy. And I like sensory overload. Like, I see like this girl over here, that bird and the spiderweb. And all this stuff is happening. These cars are going by real pass and there's a train and you know, there's a star this guy, I can't believe it. It's not even nighttime, I don't have to lock up in my room. You know, we're like, what you're saying is like, Wow, my feet are touching concrete or, or Redwood deck. And like my house is what butts up to my house is an elementary school. And you know, I'd hear these kids back there just plan and scream in and you know, and I just was just at times I just be crying like oh my god, I can't believe it. It's so surreal, so heavy. And I just remember being a little kid, you know, six, seven years old. And I was like, Wow, this is amazing. So amazing. And, and I you know, I was fortunate to have, like I'm saying is like a lot of guys that were in the group with me that, you know, went through some very emotional disclosures were in there with me. So it wasn't like a bunch of strange people or folks that were recently addicted to drugs or whatever. Coming into the space. So it was pretty safe. And I was lucky in that aspect. And definitely hit on. It was one of the thing I love the water and I got in the water and it's like, I can't I feel like I would have drowned.

Clay Tumey:

would have it I used to say like, are those? Yeah, yeah,

Marty Walters:

yeah, both, you know, I went into the ocean first. So that was awesome. Yeah, to February on the saffron Cisco. Yeah, I forgot what ocean that is Ocean Beach or something. And they're like, you're the only guy the water. That's crazy. They're like, Oh my god, it's so amazing. I could have phrased it. Like, I don't even know if I I don't even I don't even care, you know

Clay Tumey:

that you couldn't have experienced the week before, or whatever. Absolutely. Yeah. What was the first thing you ate?

Marty Walters:

First thing I, ironically was, like, tell me ramen? No, no, I've never eaten ramen since I have any peanut butter. Since I haven't eaten ramen since then I have no immediate plans to eat any of that were baloney. And yet, I don't see that in any near future. And so I will say that first thing I had was Friday eggs and hashbrowns and some real sausage at Mel's diner. And I was like, wow, this is a trip. And yeah, just having like coffee, and they're like, you want another cup? And I was like, Well, yeah, yeah, this stuff actually tastes pretty good. And then I hit Starbucks. And he took me to Starbucks every now and I didn't even know how to call the place. Yeah, how to turn off my phone, right? Like you would ring and they're like, your phone's ringing. I'm like, how does this work? How do I, you know, not accidentally hang up on everyone. I'm like, I gotta call you back. I feel super guilty.

Clay Tumey:

You mentioned something earlier that I want to circle back to you talk about you know, people, you were worried about people recognizing your thought they wouldn't know that you just got announced and all you noticed was they were just looking at their phone. And you you wondered, you know, how does anybody Connect? You know, they're always looking at their phone? So what's the answer to that? Okay, um,

Marty Walters:

I don't know, I found a way to just just be who I am authentically, I think in like zoom calls. And, and then, yeah, I definitely remember that. And just, you know, just being authentic. I think that people have to make an effort, and the short answer to, to actually physically connect and have real human to human interaction.

Clay Tumey:

I'm so happy that I got to sit down with these five ambassadors and hear their stories of reentry of struggles of everything that was talked about in this episode. And now we're rolling up on two hours, it's longer than we usually go, it's probably longer than we'll go in future episodes. But whatever, it's the internet, we're not limited by time. So maybe you listened over a few days, or a few weeks, or whatever. And it's all good. I'm just glad you're here. And I'm glad you're listening. Still, I will say that there's one more thing I want to leave you with. And that'll be the end of the episode. But first, I wanted to say thank you for being here. Thank you for listening. Thank you for sharing with others, if that's what you're doing. And if you're not, that's fine, too. We're just grateful for you. It's fun. You know, for me, on a personal level, I get a lot out of doing this, I just get a kick out of it's fun, I enjoy it. And I've heard a lot of feedback from people. And it seems that I'm not the only one enjoying this. So thanks for the feedback and everything that I've heard from others, if you want to reach out and let us know what you think. ideas that you have suggestions, constructive feedback, whatever floats your boat, feel free to reach out to me personally, my name is Clay Tumey you could spell my last name to you me why you can find me in an email at Clay at Enneagram Prison project.org You can find me on Facebook, you can find me pretty much anywhere you can type in my name. If you want to reach out to somebody else in the organization, feel free to do that as well. You could probably just type any random name at Enneagram Prison project.org and it would go to their email address. I don't know he might might not work, just give it a try. Or you can go to our website Enneagram Prison project.org. So at the conclusion of each of these five conversations that I had at the picnic for the episode today, I asked each ambassador, what would you say? If you had a sentence or two to say it to anyone could be Susan could be MPP could be the community at large the Enneagram community, the listener of the podcast, quite literally anyone? What would you say if you had a few shoe sentences to say it and I will just leave you with those answers and hope that you have the best day and thank you again for being here.

Marty Walters:

Yeah, for me EPP is a loving experience. They accepted me for who I am and you just filled with lovely people that found a way to find themselves and actually are super authentic in it and that means a lot to me is definitely why I'm here today, I'm sure and anybody that's listening, I think that you should be a part of it. For sure. Thank you.

Chuck Stubblefield:

Best thing ever happened to my life? Right? I just had a conversation, what is the day, and ebp is expanding and going into different areas. The mayor that then mayor of Stockton came to San Quentin, he left. I don't like politicians, but he left the imprint on me, because he asked his question is also security. He said, Why do you have to come to prison to get insight? Why do you have to wait to get to prison? And I said, Well, you were getting into the schools. And he said, the bureaucrats ain't gonna allow it. But I'm gonna keep doing what I can to get it in there. So my thing I would say ebp is growing that region in different areas. And the sooner that the world, the communities, the children, or future, can get insight gain insight. It's not for everybody, it should be, right. Let's get it all. I'm a testament. I mean, I'm no different from nobody else. But I'm a testament of what the possibilities can be from a gang member in Los Angeles, the state in and out of jail. To a productive citizen and community that do volunteer work in is my highest and changed. And that's all I ever wanted, was to be heard. And they have a pure heart. I will say pure, but you know what I mean, good intentions. And in all my in all, in all my fears, right. And it's all my part for me to do it. But it was to the program, it was to eppp to help guide me to that, to find my true self. So I hope they keep expanding. And I hope I can be a part of it. To reach these two outer limits.

Dustin Baldwin:

I would say directly to Susan that you are so loved and so appreciated. And something sometimes I wonder if she really had grasses, how much of an impact and she has in on other people's lives. And I guess I wondered about that myself sometimes to the work we do, but it really is. It really is the most rewarding work I've ever done. And the platform and and the people that are involved for it have really shown me what being I guess like we used to say being normal is and it's it's not boring. It's it's the greatest, greatest joy ever. Honestly.

Clay Tumey:

Vic said it well. He's like, man, if anybody ever told you that, like paying bills, and all that shit would be easy, man. They're full of shit. But it's worth it. And when you said normal minute ago, people couldn't see what you did the air quote. Yeah, like normal. Yeah. No, thank you bad though.

Renee Lopez:

I have and I love you. I love you. And I'm so glad that you like you came into my facility. Like she started there. In Santa Clara County on like, a freebie. Like, should not to be this wasn't getting paid to be there. And that program is like changed my life. I literally have like, if you ask me, I live a life of Enneagram it's like, it's ridiculous. How my life is so different. Like, I think about people's types, how I can be more compassionate to how they're at like, it's just it's in my life. It's the thing that I do. And all I can say is I love you. I love VPP I love all the first ambassadors, you guys when I would watch the videos, Jeff even that guy makes me laugh my ass off. He's like one of my favorite people because he was used to go to reconnecting all the time, but I love you. That's, that's what I would say.

Jeff Limon:

Honestly, Susan Olesek Thank you for saving my life. Oh my god. There's a little motion going on. I didn't expect that to happen. Um, I'm on the verge of tears. And I just I mean that with all my heart because that lady, all the belief that she plays to me while in jail. And, and afterwards, it really helped me to just succeed and do well upon reentry. I can't believe I don't mind it happening. I mean, I can freely cry now ever since there's been no Susan, thank you for just helping to save my life.

Clay Tumey:

For more information about EP EP, please visit any Enneagram Prison project.org we appreciate your time and attention today. Stay tuned for future episodes, which you can expect on the 12th of every month as we continue to tell the story of Enneagram Prison Project