Enneagram Prison Project (EPP) Podcast

Episode 2: The Beginnings...

May 12, 2021 EPP and friends Season 1 Episode 2
Enneagram Prison Project (EPP) Podcast
Episode 2: The Beginnings...
Chapters
Enneagram Prison Project (EPP) Podcast
Episode 2: The Beginnings...
May 12, 2021 Season 1 Episode 2
EPP and friends

The EPP Podcast is back this month as our host, EPP Ambassador Clay Tumey, "turns the tables" on EPP Founder Susan Olesek for a not-to-be-missed conversation about the Enneagram, hosting a relationship panel in prison, and the birth of Enneagram Prison Project!

Show Notes Transcript

The EPP Podcast is back this month as our host, EPP Ambassador Clay Tumey, "turns the tables" on EPP Founder Susan Olesek for a not-to-be-missed conversation about the Enneagram, hosting a relationship panel in prison, and the birth of Enneagram Prison Project!

Clay Tumey:

Hi, my name is Clay Tumey. And I am an ambassador for the Enneagram Prison Project. Over the next 12 months or so I'm going to be speaking with various people who have played roles throughout the years with Enneagram Prison Project. And today I'm going to be speaking with the founder of EPP. And my friend, Susan Olesek.

Susan Olesek:

Well, this is fun. I have a whole Well, now it's like eight minutes short of an hour and a half, but basically, like a whole hour and a half. to just sit here, it takes, it takes a podcast for you and I to actually get to chop it up. So I was actually gonna try to, like start, I was thinking of like, what's the best way to be funny? early. And I've had all these jokes running through my head, and I already we were already talking, so I can't use them. But I was, this is what I was thinking. I was like, I could probably say something like, wow, I gotta figure out how I'm going to fill a whole hour and a half, because we never talked that long. But the reality is, it's like, I don't think we ever have spoken like less than that. Unless it was literally, hey, I only have five minutes, blah, blah, blah, gotta go by. Yeah, I find even those don't usually work for five. No, I don't know that it's ever been five. It's probably not even like at the airport where Hey, I'm out here by ga or whatever, terminal. And even those probably go, you might not like this connection that I'm about to make. But I have my my children have put me in touch with the New York Times. I can't think what is called the daily by Michael Barbaro. And he has that way of speaking, where pretty much everything he says sounds like it's got you on the edge of your seat, because it's so interesting. And you in a different way, have that same kind of grab gravitas when you speak about whatever. So I do feel like even if it's five minutes, it still feels like that was a good five minutes. It's the feeling is mutual. And I like that I feel like I'll accept that as a compliment. Even though I'm not sure whether it was or not. But I just don't know how you feel about the New York Times. I don't I don't feel about it. It's just words on a paper. And I don't read those words, actually. And not because of who wrote them or where they're published, I just I choose to not really read a whole lot of news these days. And I'd like I like the idea of being able to just, I don't know, collectively get news from everybody and kind of suss out like what means what and who says what and why they say it and all that other stuff. So I don't feel like I can. I don't know if this is just me becoming like a grouchy old man, or, you know, suspicious of everything around me. But I just really don't feel like there's a whole anything that sells ads, or advertisements or drives itself based on ratings, I'm just probably not going to be super excited to check it out. And I'll take it in from like, an entertainment standpoint or just for the sake of being open to the world. But generally speaking, I kind of just would rather talk to people and hear their experiences. And, you know, if something happens, and obviously I'm on Google, looking it up, you know, good for better, for worse. I mean, news is out there. It's kind of silly to hide from it. But I don't have an opinion about the New York Times. I know they have killer crossword puzzles. Or at least that's the rumor. That is the rumor. I'm not actually a New York Times crossword puzzle viewer. But it is to me really interesting that you just said what you did about not liking or not necessarily reading the news and that you'd like to get your news from everyone. I've been realizing a little bit more about myself. Well, I've always known that I was news paper and news averse. I think largely because it's so negative often. And even though it's information I live with, you know, Mr. Information gather were often referrals. If you ask him something, he'll say, I know everything that's fit to print because he literally has read everything he can get his eyes on it. And I'm really different. I don't I have been averse to to the news. I know more now. Because I think I like my idealism. I like my happy bubble. And I often gets burst. And it's just my own, you know, type, wanting to defy reality and live where I live. Sometimes that serves me and sometimes it doesn't. I feel like and in this position, if this was a panel, I could say and by the way, I listened to a panel a few times this morning that we'll get to later but my what's running through my head right now is and how does that serve you or or the flip side of that? How does that not serve you or whatever because I've been asked So we're gonna call this podcast the tables are turned the tables are turned my mind my turn to have tabled as what's his name said. But yeah, it serves me because I, I want to live in the way I want the world to be. And if I'm not clouded by all the other stuff people are telling me about the world that I can stay where I am and, you know, for EPV sometimes that's really helpful. And sometimes that's really not. So do you think that there are literally nine different ways to to answer that question of how does it serve? Or these acts, I guess probably wouldn't have to because not all nine types are avoiding the news, I suppose. I don't know. I started asking a question. And then halfway through, I didn't like it because it didn't really, it didn't fit. It didn't fit what I was wanting to know. Because as a type. So like, you're not reading the news. And I'm not reading the news. But there are two totally different reasons like, like broad strokes, you know, just just looking at it from a big picture kind of way. Yeah, I do think there's nine different ways of why that is maybe 27, depending on how you slice it. And you know, I am still reading the news, just let the record show, I do push myself to at least listen to Michael. Every morning. What they didn't call it the Enneagram. And they just started calling it three cubed. Because everything is three times three, and then more threes. On top of threes in the world of threes with the Enneagram. Or the world of three. I'm surprised nobody's done that yet. Here. They like to market things. You heard it here first. So what's new, you talked about this EP EP thing. And this is we're 11 months out from a certain anniversary, I suppose next year around this time, we're actually talking on the 10th. That's my 10th right now, but I think so like, all the way back today. So people know that I met you in the prison, where you first taught the Enneagram I think a lot of people know that. And if they didn't, then they do now. But I think what what a lot of people don't know, actually wasn't in the very first class, you went to Texas and and taught. I want to say november of 2009. Does that sound about right? Yes, exactly. November, I did not I was at that prison. A few weeks later, December of oh nine. That's when I got there. And then I went through the first class and January of 2010. And so on and so forth. You know, I went but how did you how did you even get to the point to where you were, you know, this Enneagram teaching lady out from California and present and just a few hours, or I guess not even a full hour outside of Houston, Texas? Well, the absolute truth is I wasn't an Enneagram teaching lady much or any Enneagram teaching anything. I was a mom, I still am have three boys. And I had learned the Enneagram in a parenting class I've been using it for for nine years at that time, I guess going on 10. And I had found it really, really helpful. And then I had just in the two years before I got that invitation to come to prison bend certifying as an Enneagram teacher with Palmer Daniels wasn't called the narrative Enneagram at the time, but that's where I got my certification through. And I was just trying to spend more of my adult brain on things that had to do with the Enneagram because I loved it. And I used it and I, I knew that it was something that was going to be part of whatever I did, when my kids got a little bit bigger. And then when I finished certifying, I also felt really compelled to do something like put it into some kind of practice. So I hung out my shingle, like with my friends, and they're a couple of their friends in my living room that had you know, six, eight people coming on a regular basis. And I was really hard pressed just to do that. I got invited to teach it. I was at the time it was it was going to church and I went to do a workshop with I think 40 people in that church. And it stressed me I was it was a big deal for me. And then that was like literally a couple you know, I don't know, months into it. I got invited to Texas and I said yes because that just floats my social one boat in a big way. So I'm curious when I always wonder how people get into prison as as like voluntarily get into prison not criminally get into because that's an easier question to answer. But like there are there is a certain like I feel there's some people who are just called to do certain things like they just like they feel a desire to serve a population whether it's incarcerated or any other population, and then they find a way to make that work or make it happen or whatever. And correct me if I am I don't want to put like words in your mouth but as I hear It sounds like prison wasn't really on the radar necessarily. It's the Enneagram that got you in there because you were a teacher and and somebody invited you to teach, right? It wasn't like you had. And like I said, please correct me if this is not accurate, but it doesn't sound like it was I want to serve the incarcerated. And this is how I'm going to do it. It was more like, I just want to serve people. And oh, by the way, they're inviting me to prison. Is that fair to say? That's true. I didn't have I wasn't ever seeking out how to get myself in a prison. I have always been a social justice seeker. I have always been somebody who feels convicted by things that affect the masses, and especially things that are unfair. And, you know, I when I was in college, I studied sociology and emphasis was on women's studies. And I applied to the Watson foundation as a graduating senior to study the subject of my choice and the country of my choice for 12 months. And I propose to study the sex trade in at the time I call it the Far East, and Asia. And I was selected as an alternate, which meant that I if somebody else didn't get there, I think they gave $10,000 at the time to go study that, that I could end up doing that. And so, you know, very likely could have ended up there. I think my parents might have been relieved that I wasn't doing that. But I'm not so sure how much happier they were that I was going to. But I think it was always in Me, too. I got really excited. Can convicted kind of about that. Yeah, that's that's the place I want to put my energy just didn't even tell you that question just to Hell, yeah. So the first time you went to prison, by that point, obviously, you're probably already already stoked about it. To some extent, you flew out from California. So you had, there's like a build up to it. It wasn't like you just popped up in a jail, like randomly one day, then this particular facility. And I can say from experience, because I live there. It's not the it's not the roughest, it's not the roughest yard. In the countries, it's a pretty chill. It's a pre release what they call a pre release facility. I mean, there's dudes who've done some pretty bad stuff to get there. There's murderers and all the whole the whole list of all the bad crimes, those dudes are there, but they got one foot out the door because they're either they've served their time, or they're getting close to making parole or whatever, but I don't know if you really I don't know if you know that coming in, or if they, as we say, laced you up, you know, to that or whatever. But when you're when you're coming in to prison for the first time what I assumed that I was literally your first time stepping in to jail or prison of any kind, but are you nervous about it? Are you like, excited about it? What's what does it feel like? I remember what I was feeling like the first day I was about to go to jail, but it was different circumstances, to say the least. So what's going through your head when you're like, Alright, I'm about to go in and do this thing. Honestly, don't remember feeling. I don't know if I can say any but much at all trepidation in the way of the prison part that I wasn't I didn't feel scared by that. I felt excited. I didn't feel nervous, like or apprehensive because of the fact that it was a facility. I didn't feel any of that. I didn't. I didn't. I did feel really, really terrified that I wouldn't remember the Enneagram and that I didn't know all this stuff. I did feel a lot of self doubt and yeah, all those all those sorts of things. But in terms of the prison part, I just felt very sure that that was where I wanted to be and like kind of impatient to get there and going through you know, for me on the on the outside to go in it's a little tiny room with just a few people in there a metal detector a very, you know, lot of almost like camaraderie with the people checking me to go in and I had a person that was real familiar with the prison before me and I realized I had a lipstick in my back pocket and all of a sudden I had that like Type One terror that I was like the in so much trouble for trying to smuggle something like that in. It took me Yeah, he brought in a chapstick. So the two of us, you know, I just didn't get those kinds of things. That's the stuff that stressed me. And, and I actually remember after going to the sallyport and then going in, not they call it that but like no, it's the sallyport I giggled because of every time I hear somebody say, you know when when God closes one door, he you know he'll, He'll open another and so when I think about it backwards when I hear sally port, I think when it's called sally port, so I always think about that. So, when I hear sallyport, I think of that phrase, and it's just silly. And that's what it's like to live in my brain sometimes. I just remember when the door did close, and I was in, in the hallway of the prison, which was briefly, meticulous, it felt like shiny floors and actually silent, there weren't people milling around, people were in the different rooms in different parts of the facility, I had no idea where I was. It's just it was echoey, and quiet and shiny. And I felt very still inside myself, I felt like I'm here. So good. So before that, you're, you're cool with it. But I don't know if I've ever actually asked what your family thought about it. Like your kids at that point. If my memory or my notebook serves correctly, they think they were 12, seven and five. So it's probably not the most, like normal conversation to have with your kids. But what about Rick? like? What does he think? I don't know, I just want my first thoughts as a guy on the inside, watching. You know, somebody, his wife, teach dudes in prison like I want, I wonder what their family's thinking about, like, do there? Are they? Are they scared for their mom? Are they worried about their wife? Or that? You know, like, I don't? Don't ever have? I mean, surely there was some conversation there. But is it is it? I'm just curious what that was like, I don't know, I'd be terrified for my spouse to be going into a prison where I could not do anything to help them if something went wrong, you know, is a good question for Rick. And also an interesting thing as a fellow head type that you too might have some, you know, shared sentiments around? I don't know, I it's not that we've never talked about it. I think one thing that's really nice in my relationship with Rick is there's a lot of freedom to do the stuff that we want to do. And we've always had that with each other. And it was, it was no telling me I'm not going wasn't like a permission. You know, we don't have that kind of relationship anyway. But it wasn't even like a he didn't have any of these have you thought about? You know? Sure you want to do that? He did ask the questions, though, that I didn't ask myself, which is another thing I appreciate about our dynamic is he comes from that orientation of safety, security, where I come more with this, you know, body type, wanting my own autonomy. And he would ask more of their safety kinds of questions. I can't even come up with one right now. That's how little they stayed with me. Maybe I am. But I didn't have it. So I didn't pay attention to it. He may have quite a bit to say that I don't know about. The price speaks to my upbringing, the way that I thought about that. When I when I finally met Rick, Rick, a couple years later, whenever it was, it was so obvious, like, Oh, that's why like, this dude's a rock star in his own right, and the way that he is and the way that you there's the way that every everything out there really you guys are is different than how I grew up. And so there was some, like, I shouldn't have been wondering some of those things anyways, because it's just, it's just like, so old school. And like, I don't know, there's probably a polite word to say for it. But I just I, I was wondering, like, Why? I don't know, I'm almost ashamed to like, say it out loud. What I was thinking, but really, it was just like, how could somebody let their like wife just go do this? And it's just not okay to think that way, obviously. But that's a 2010. I'm in prison. And I always live in the south. And that's just incorrectly how I thought about things. And then when I met Rick, I was like, Ah, this dude's a badass man. And not the kind of badass that I grew up thinking was a badass, you know? I will definitely ask him about that. Because I'm curious. And I would, I would guess that he would probably remember some of those concerns. And I just wonder what I don't know. I wonder what that's like, because I don't I didn't have the same kinds of fears. When I was getting arrested and going to jail. I had concerns and stuff like that, but I can relate to that sense of guest excitement or being eager to or just like, this is where I belong, cilia sets. Sounds like some of those phrases Fit Me too, by the way, except I was gonna go live there. And yeah, I'm kind of just like shifting straight into something because I don't want I want to get to this like soon. So I don't run out of time, even though we've still got like an hour. But in that prison, where you taught the inia Graham, one of my favorite things that ever happened with VPP even though up didn't have its name yet. Was this Sally panel that we did. And it's my favorite thing. One of my favorite things to talk about for a few reasons. One, it was I'm just a nerd. Who's you know, I got the typical like five thing going on in my head sometimes where I just love a good puzzle. And you wanted to do this Sally panel, which is like a spin off of the of the popular thing to do out here in the free world where you know, what is it like seeing relations Ships through the lens of the Enneagram, or however you want to phrase that were how to different types survive as couples. And obviously, that's not a thing in prison. But, but talking as like selleys, what's it like for different types to live together? And it was recorded, like we had the ability to record that in there. And actually, if you don't mind, I would like to place on that and see if you'd like to talk to talk through some of it. Let's say in this moment, Jeff lamone, I feel you because we did this to Jeff in a different way played something that he recorded while he was in prison in front of a live audience in Portugal, and he nodded, like I'm not into clay. And I have not listened to this for many, many years. I haven't press play. Yeah, that's I can close. I can close the window and toes. Oh, no, I'm in you know, I'm in. Yeah. I had a feeling. So yeah, I know, you like preparation and being planned and all that. Everything. So and that's why I didn't tell you. But Alright, I'm just going to press play from the beginning. And if you want me to, if you want me to stop or pause, or if you want to say something, just just talk over it, and I can pause it. And let me know if the volumes not okay, all that good stuff. But yeah, here we go. Um, we have a, I just want to say, because nobody else can see this. As soon as the M came out, the hand went to the face. That was the most like facepalm ever. Alright, I'm sorry. I had to I just I wanted to, nobody would know that. That happened if I didn't say that, because this is not going to be video recorded. But yeah, here we go. Um, we have a special panel. For those of you that don't know. So if you can, if you're on our special panel, you can come and join it. And the rest of you, if you could kind of find your way back in put the seats back, that'd be great. Okay, so this is how this is going to work. We have we have a Sally panel. She hadn't figured it out yet. Because the question that I get all the time is you have a what happen in relationship you have a How has it happened when you know, my my friend does this to me or whatever. So this is the closest we can do to relationship because you guys if you live together that's just about as irritated as you can get with somebody, right? Because you pretty much show your true colors after you've shared cell space with someone. What the hell gave you the idea to do like a relationship type panel in prison. As I'm sitting here, I'm thinking like why she was so it's not brave. It's not like courageous because I feel like I didn't, I didn't really think it all the way through as I as I sit here in this seat. I'm trying to even though I was there trying to remember like, what what happened on that panel, and it is so rife with who knows what's going to come out of people's mouths. So what prompted it really was what I'm saying right there. To everyone. It's what everybody asks is what everybody wants to know. And I think maybe what I was doing was self preserving. I was trying to figure out how to let people get their questions answered without trying to be an expert about something that I didn't know that the best way I am at my best I feel when I am able to respond real time to con content and to facilitate rather than to try to deliver material like download it from or just teach and teach it for so I think that's what I was doing. I totally see that too. I think that your your capacity to remember things is unreal. And you're, it's but I totally agree with that idea that you're you're you seem more about finding what's there and then talking about it than just delivering a presentation. Which is why you're such a badass by the way. It's one of the many reasons that you're so awesome because it lends itself well to like just having the conversation that needs to be had rather than just saying words that you rehearsed. I'm a fan. All right, there's more. And again, there's a few more clips that I wanted to let you hear. And you can tap out whenever but if you don't say anything I'm gonna go ahead and press play. Oh, this this was the program where we all had sweet names. Do you remember the sweet names? I didn't remember all of them. Yeah, well, I just I do have the we all had names instead of being called like killer and you know all these prison names. We all had names like pumpkin pie and you know, rubber ducky and stuff like that. No, it's yours clay pumpkin pie. And it's only because I have a big head. I don't like pumpkins and I don't like pie as just they saw me like as a big old pumpkin coming pumpkin pie. So there was a little bit of hazing vibes to it. But they were they were the idea. The sweet name was To just sweeten people up, so it's like, bunch of hard dudes like my like, chill out a little bit. But yeah, and I'm a two. So this is everybody kind of introducing themselves on panel,

Unknown:

you pass the mic down. And aka cotton candy, an eight chance, aka ballerina and I'm three with a strong four wing James aka candy King. I'm a six man.

Clay Tumey:

My name is Clay Tumey aka pumpkin pie. I'm a five.

Unknown:

I'm Gary, aka purple peacock, and I'm a seven. This is Samuel. He's feeling kind of small though. Somebody who hasn't showed up great. My name is Dylan, aka juice fruit. And I am a one with a two wing. I am Mark aka Cinnabon. I am Type Nine.

Susan Olesek:

And by the way, you did something very interesting here that I don't think I've seen you don't do sense is that you actually turned the panel over to the to the people in the class and said, Do you guys have any questions that you want to ask? Okay, do we have our first question for our panelists? I'll start you off if nobody's brave enough to ask yet? Really? You're not tired of me? Come on. Again, me looking for help out on the panel. That's probably what I did. So, so I don't know what's it like hearing all this, by the way, cuz it's been that we're in May of 2021. This was recorded this panel was May of 2010. So this is actually 11 years ago, that this that this happened and I'm curious what it feels like hearing all that play, it's touching me. I I was so in love with the the moment and the people and what was happening and what had been happening. And this isn't what we did. You know, the first minute I got there, we'd been through all nine types we had an afternoon. This is like the closing of our time there. I had been experiencing what propelled me to found Enneagram Prison Project, which was I was falling in love with people who were falling in love with themselves. And at the same time, I was falling in love with me and I had no idea no words for all that I just, I can feel like my little, just a little tearful honestly hearing it and partly because I can hear it. Even from their checking, you can hear the Type Nine, it's like, yep, you are a Type Nine, just the pace, the cadence that, you know, the thoughtfulness and and I'm also having a little bit of a Okay, it wasn't it wasn't that bad. It's what my first fear is that did I mess up? Did I you know, I still have that Type One thing. And so what's also happening is I'm kind of following and remembering. It was beautiful in there. It was and I'm glad I'm glad we had we had a computer there in the room with us that we can record all this with because I don't know I remembered some of this way less accurately than I would have expected because what I want to hear here the so that speaking of the Type Nine he lit up his Type One sell a pretty good, I don't know how much do you remember? And I don't I'm not gonna go through the whole panel because it was a it was nearly an hour long and, and just would get in the way of all the other things I want to talk about. But they're basically there was like, he was saying how messy and you know what he said, Actually, I think I have that timestamp. I was gonna listen to me talking about myself, but suddenly don't really care about that too much. And I want to go straight to what what the nine was saying he because the one so the one and the nine were Sally's roommates. And it was like, the one just was like, Hey, Mark was so cool is easy to live with nice guy, clean house. You know, all this stuff. And mark on you said okay, well, how was it? asked the Type Nine How was it like living with with Stanley. And that's what I'm going to try to find right now. Do you remember what the what the response was? When you asked him what it was like living with with more of his his true experience came out? And how how hard it was.

Unknown:

Yeah, and I think it's 2925 whatever, but I thought he's big dude. But you know, right off the bat. He seemed like he was really cool. So this is the Type One back the Type Nine. He had a lot of towels all over the floor because I mean the wall was leaking. I'd probably don't know how long probably because he never said anything about it. You know so but Like other data, I mean, I mean, he's just really, really laid back he had left and went and didn't leave and go medical chain and you just came back on medical chain or something for your leg. Yeah. And then, you know, a few things happen. And he got separated. And when he got separated, it was like, What? I couldn't I couldn't even believe it, because he was like, in the same house as me. And as I Oh, no, you know, I had I not know, you know what I mean, as I go, you see that coming? I never saw it coming into Mark marks I really good dude. He was always busy doing homework, he'd stay on his.

Susan Olesek:

And for those who are wondering, separated, just means removed from that, from that program until the next class. So he, the Type Nine wasn't living up to the standards of the class. And so they separated him from the class and he got to try again. The next. The next class,

Unknown:

they on his desk constantly. I mean, he had lot of homework too, though. But he's like the homework king. He had, he had, yeah, yeah, I hope we're on everything. But he, I mean, he's a busy he was he was into it, he did it, he took care of it. Um, I remember, he's plays radio, a lot, is ready to be playing on Spanish music all the time, you know, I'd walk in it. He just like he stayed in the house a lot, how to walk in. And it didn't really bother me. I need some me time, you know, but I was never really stressed out about it, because I could just hang out, it was like, he wasn't even there. You know,

Susan Olesek:

nines have that way of just almost, you know, they can feel invisible. And sometimes that's a strength, especially when you're close quarters. And then in the rest of the in the real world, right? Or even when you're out here and rest of the work and TTP. It's so great to be invisible. Right? You want to be noticed? Probably.

Unknown:

Yeah. But the Spanish music thing was cool. Because you know, as he was, he surprised me when he was surprised when I told him I was cool listening to it, because I like to to a big deal for me. So is that

Susan Olesek:

a way for you to mark out Mark? With your music? Tell me about that.

Unknown:

Oh, we're living with Stanley for what two months or a month was like, was like hell. Okay. Before he moved in, my house was clean.

Susan Olesek:

And for more context, by the way, and not only was this this Type Nine loved by pretty, he was just a big teddy bear, and everybody liked him. And I think the opposite was true for the one he was not as light. So to hear him get lit up, you can I don't know if you can hear the class, but everybody's just cracking up and kind of enjoying because of who it is. Which probably, I don't know if you had any, like emotion, emotional reaction or connection to any of that. Being that it was a Type One that that was happening to but it was it was it was way more uncomfortable than then the recording kind of shows or Oh, I was uncomfortable. I was I was also Well, I'm I'm always uncomfortable, no matter who the person is that is potentially going to be in something shameful. I don't like that. I don't want that I facilitate around that. And I won't spoil the end because I remember what I did with this, too. I was that's coming, by the way. Yeah, I was worried for the type ones in our experience, the way I went into THC Enneagram was not about teaching about the bad things or laughing at anyone I didn't. I mean, if you think about how few safety things I put around this panel, actually even letting the questions come over time, I changed that practice, because I learned the hard way that people often project their own difficult things onto the people that are courageous enough to be speaking on panel, and then they just unload. And that's really not safe for panelists. However, I was pretty green. So I also think that interesting things can happen like the one that was just unfolding right there. And I was cringing inside for how hard it would be for me to be in front of everybody recorded. Right. And this how many people in the room? Do you think clay 100 there were I think it was at least 100 who were in the class, like current participants of the class. And then there were also graduates from previous classes, which had to be another 40 or 50 people. So if I had to guess, I would say no less than 140 and probably more like 150 or 160. It's an entire community that this is happening in front of and I'm aware that the panel is going to end I'm going to get on a plane and go back to California and this man is going to be in it with everyone the end of the whole weekend. Yeah, yeah. So there's no not any more bringing the class together that I can do after this. I'm just feeling all of that coming down and wondering, can he take it Have we done enough? Has he done enough internal work for he able to receive this feedback inside himself. So the nine carried on and with with the giggles and laughs and everything, it was actually fueling him not in a mean way or sadistic way he felt liberated, like, Oh, this is okay for me to say because the noises that I'm getting from the crowd is like, it's telling me that this is okay. So he kept going, and he felt more. And he even said, like, I never This is the most I've ever talked since I've been here. And it was, it was like, on one hand, it was adorable. If you only looked at him, because he was experiencing some things that he hadn't really expected. And he didn't. I don't think he It was not intentional that he was just completely It was a brutal thing that he was unaware of, I think. And that's how anger works. Right? For the nine is underground, and he didn't probably even realize how much he had been suppressing, repressing, holding, ignoring, denying. So after all, that you made a comment to him something about Oh, cuz he was like, Yeah, he would cry, he would do this, he'll do that blah, blah. And I don't have this queued up. But she said, I'm never getting here. Like, I'm never gonna be able to it was kind of a joke, but it just a realization, like, I'm never gonna be able to get another silly panel after this. Like it was the I don't know if you remember saying that. But it was it was in his response to that was, Oh, it's fun. Like, what do you mean? Like, he was like, why am I having the time in my life? And as he was done, and you kept asking him questions, like, what was good about living with stammer was you kept trying to Elise, wrap it up with something positive. And it never went there. He just kept like, like, like ranting, basically, with a smile. And and this is where it ended a

Unknown:

talk that I ever been.

Susan Olesek:

That's what he said,

Unknown:

I think I've talked more today than ever.

Susan Olesek:

Yeah, he's like, give me the mic back. Stan says it was pass it on. I was gonna say so I have to say, just in support of my brother, the one over there that has an awful lot of constructive feedback that just came his way. And I think that our one needs a round of applause to thank you very much.

Unknown:

So, in case these two went in touch with his anger, right now, I'm gonna just ask you to really, I'm gonna ask let you have a chance to respond, but in a second. So we're gonna pass the mic all the way back this way, if you will, so that you can have a few deep breaths.

Susan Olesek:

And I'm, I'm suddenly aware that I wonder if, if me playing this and listening to it, in this in this format is triggering to you, as it might have been for Stanley hearing all that from his old self? I don't know. Or do you have any thoughts around that at all? I'm not sure what connection you mean, triggering? I mean, like, like, I don't know, I this was like, a funny, not funny, but I don't remember this is like, bad or like, I don't stat, it was kind of brutal, but I don't have any, like negative connection to the memory of it. And I don't, and I don't, I'm not saying that you do or should or whatever. But I'm just making sure that this is like, okay, like, we're good. Like, Oh, it's so okay, but what I what I feel is the things that I've learned since since the panel, and some of them I already said around safety and what we do and don't do with panelists, and how much time it would take to unpack all the things that just got laid out right by this very honest Type Nine. And I just, I think that what I might say today is turn to the to the group that's enjoying this so much and say so this is reactivity. And this is what happens when we aren't able to say what we feel in the moment. And, you know, can you think of a time for yourself when you've not been totally honest with all that you might have been experiencing? And there's not a single person in that room or anybody that's listening to this podcast that can answer that question. Honestly, in the negative, everybody always has some things in their life that they can look back on like that. So I would bring more of the relatability. And, and I'm not sure that I wouldn't do again, what I did what I was attempting to do for the Type One, which is to give him a second, because I know how it is for me when I'm not seeing in the light that I want to be seen and this was not a positive light. This is a lot of information that Type One never had heard before. And I know we get when we feel wronged we want to fix it and we want to fix it in a kind of righteous way. And sometimes we can do harm by answering too fast and I wanted to let him if he could find His ground. And that was the olive branch I was attempting to extend. And as a student, like, you know, me sitting in class that those little, those little, like little phrases like just take a few breaths, like I'll, those are like major learning experiences for me because I know you told us even back then, you know the magic of 11 seconds, you know, and gave explanations to that in way more detail than I can just off top my head right now. But I understand the value of like just chilling and taking a few breaths and letting things happen as they happen. And I've needed that a ton. And it's been 11 years since this, I've needed it so many times I couldn't even possibly begin to count. And it's it's kind of nice having that little tool in the old tool belt there. And I don't know, a lot of science behind that. It does help. It definitely helps. So that's all about the salary panel. Have you have you ever thought to do another one sensor? Have you ever tried to do another one since I haven't had another one. Not another good chance, just the way our classes fill you we needed. We needed to have actually what you provided clay which is at the break, you weren't in the class that I was teaching. I was sort of lamenting, well, I wish we could have like a relationship panel. And you and your very can do ways that? Well, we could and then you disappeared. And you came back with a typed list of every person and their Sally and a bio and their type for me. And I thought Holy cow, like you. You weren't kidding. And and I remember, I don't know if it was on this panel, or if it was somebody something someone said in there. But Sally's often talked about their relationships, which is probably what prompted this. Number one Sally thing is a Type Two. Maybe it was on this panel? Because I feel like yeah, the two and the eight. And as Sally, the two is saying I just really always want to you know, figure out what he needs and try to get it for him. And you know, of Alec Johnson coffee doing this doing that. Or maybe the eight was saying that if unself and, and he said, You know, like, I, I? I didn't want to, I didn't want to like, tell him Yes. Like even if I wanted the coffee, it wasn't about to let him know that I wanted it. And I thought that's it right there. That's the power triad, the two and the eight, both wanting something to, you know, kind of hold power over the other, not consciously. But like for two, that means I'm connected, right? For a Type Eight. That means I got some, some agency. And I think those things are so fascinating. That's, that's to me, what that's the point of the Enneagram is to try to understand how to apply it and how to see it in action and how to see like, well, what would be so vulnerable about your selling, knowing that you were wanting that cup of coffee and being vulnerable enough to receive something that he had for you, right? What's so hard? And he even said, like, you know, maybe sometimes throw him a bone, let him make a cup of coffee. Like that phrase stuck out? Like just tell him about it make a cup of coffee. And I want I don't know, where does the five fit and all that because it's in that in that same triad? How does? You know, I don't drink coffee? And I'm probably not making somebody else coffee. But if I did, how would How would a five fit into that? into that? If it was if either of those guys were myself? I think you would feel the answer best. But what I understand about five is it's much more about knowledge. And I might have something that you know, and maybe I share it with you or maybe I don't and actually I talk about the thing that you said to me way back then in Texas, where I think it might have been on a panel where you said, you know, people will want to know stuff from me. Like they might say, what do you have for breakfast? And I said Who wants to know? I'm gonna tell you why are you asking me that? what color your socks? You know, that's off, right? You just don't let people know stuff unless you do want them to. And then I always contrast that with how we ended up at the first VA conference with you. And ILA mind panel and you said, and I quote you carte blanche, you know, you got, you got the keys, you can ask whatever you want. And that's how you showed up with your open heart. So it's actually not about the socks or what you had for breakfast, or every detail of your life, it's about your inner state, and that when you feel connected and control as a five, then you're very open and disclosing that feel true for you. 100%. And it's and it's and I probably use different terminology for it, but it means the same thing. It's about trust for me, and I laughed as soon as you brought that up because it's wasn't even two nights ago. Guy work comes over and asks me, you know, hey, do you got your phone on you is he's he's my supervisor. And he says, Hey, you got your phone on you. I said yeah, was that he was open it up real quick. So why? He said well, you have the and then the app that we have Where we clock in law, we log our hours and all that stuff. We do all that on a on an app on our mobile device. He says you got the such and such app right? said, Yeah, he goes here. I need to look, I need to look, look something up real quick. Make sure it's there. And the conversation is about so I work Thursday, Friday, Saturday, that's my schedule. Thursday, Friday, Saturday overnights, you know, every week. And this week, they added a day. So I'm gonna work Wednesday, he was wanting to make sure that Wednesday was on my schedule. And the way that he was going about it, I don't like conversations to go like that. I don't I don't particularly trust this guy. You know, he's never done anything. I just so work relationship. He's more aggressive than I like. And he's the kind of guy where he says, Hey, man, what kind of socks you wear? I want to know why he's asking me that before I tell him. So I connected the dots. I'm just, I'm good at that. So I when he asked me to open the app up, I said, Are you wanting to know if Wednesday's on my schedule? Is it? Yeah, I said it is already worked. You know, I looked like 30 minutes prior to that. And that was the end of the conversation. And so he was fine with like, once I gave him his information, like there was no like power trip or butting heads or anything like that. He was coming at me at one direction. And I just didn't like it. Because I don't trust. I don't know him well enough to trust what he's doing with this information. So hey, you got your phone on? Yeah, I got it. You got this app? Yeah, I got that. Like, I want to start with is Wednesday on your schedule. Like, that's where the conversation for me needs to begin, unless I have that rapport or that relationship or that trust or whatever. Which is why when we do stuff, like I, I'm fine telling you, hey, it's more in later years, it's, it's, this trust is still there. And then also, I just understand the importance of boundaries. And also the ability to express when something is not okay to talk about. And that is such a, I guess, to use the word powerful feeling for me to just know that like you can, I can do an interview on ESPN Radio and tell the guy Hey, dude, ask me literally everything that comes to your mind. And I trust my boundaries enough that I'll let you know if I'm not going to answer a question. And I've experienced that so much to this point, that it's just okay, like, I'm comfortable with it. But in the early days, it was just like, I don't really trust you. And that's pretty much where all my trust is right now. And, you know, as time goes on, I can experience trust and other things, like in addition to right, not not, instead of that makes life you went from ask you know, you and only you and then you know, all these years out of prison, you didn't ask me anything, literally. I think that's true, where you can, you can trust yourself so much so and sometimes I even even just sitting here chatting with you, and you say I got this thing I'm gonna play you there's a there's a little panic that goes off. And what is that that's just a little remnant of, of something that may, you know, in one way or another always be there, but being able to come back. That's the ticket. I tell you, this is something that I think is it's nice to experience when you can have that with more people like I feel that way. I've been on a few more panels with non Susan's, you know, in the last few years, and, and Dana is one of those people where I could just I'm just like, dude, whatever I'm, I'm, you're flying. I'm just riding shotgun, you can ask me anything you want. And there are other people within, you know, the project who I feel that way with and it's really cool, man. It's It's a feeling of, of just, it just feels good. And there's way more people now than there was back in May of 2010. It's quite a few actually. Right. There may be more and more, but you're the common denominator.

Unknown:

Yeah.

Susan Olesek:

All right. So I'm so happy to break off of that spot. Yeah, I'm just I'm just moonwalking. I'm looking at my list. I don't know why I just did that. I went straight from like, I feel okay, and I get now just like, I want to go talk about something that's not me. I don't know there's probably an explanation for that. And I'm gonna keep talking so you don't get to tell me what the explanation is. But I'm kidding. I have so I have like phrases written down for notes. And any of these that that sound fun to talk about. Let me know and we'll just go there. The first one that actually says a whole last sentence is at what point did I'm one person turn into we are several people teaching so with regard to EP like At what point did it become on the Enneagram late No, you never caught yourself at That's what we called you. I'm the Enneagram lady here to teach the Enneagram to We are an organization. And we're in a lot of places doing a lot of things, Qatar to go from, you know, Susan to eppp. gradual, and in some places, it feels a little bit overnight. And I think one of the most pivotal places was us becoming friends when you got out, and a couple of other folks. Because shout out to Facebook, by the way, shout out to Facebook, it was one thing to have a vision and excuse me an idea. And I say this to the ambassadors a lot, but it's quite another for you to think it's a good idea. And to, for you to say, Yeah, let's do this. And I remember different places, I particularly remember sitting outside of the Pete's coffee shop, around the corner from where my son was in first grade, and talking to you. And I was I knew I had, you know, whatever X amount of time before I had to go pick them up and, and just getting to know you, like I didn't know you beyond having been on the panel. And you've given me the gift of all that, you know, the pellet seli panel arranged for me and things like that, I trusted you too. But I wanted to share more and more. And I wanted you to understand kind of what I what I was seeing for the potential of the project. And every time I spoke with you, like that was one of those never gonna be five minutes. I was like, Oh, my God, he gets it. And I think you understood things that I was trying to grasp to. And like the extent and the the pain of what you've been through what had happened to you in order to turn yourself in and do all that you had experienced in the people that you knew on the inside there. So there's so much of that I will never fully get that you grasp and were patient with trying to explain to me, so when you said yes, just by way of reaching out connecting with me, and having those long conversations that were was a distinct place where I'm only one mattered. That shifted. So there were more than just I wasn't the only one there were others. Right. And, as I don't know how, how. So there's me and there was even and there was also a guy that I mentioned a minute ago named Packer buddy of mine that I was that we were all locked up at the same place. And the first like you came out to Texas? Was it 2012? When was that that we did the first video? The 2013

Unknown:

it was it was between 12 and 13.

Susan Olesek:

And you flew to Houston to shoot the first. Was it the first TPP video or? video? How actually the first one was on the inside? Right? That's when the crew when it's when you're talking about I was already gone when you did that. And that's the reason I don't remember that one because I got out. I got out in August of 2010. And then I think he went back like September or October or somewhere around there. And I had just gotten out. So yeah, he actually did a video on the inside. Before you did one on the outside. Right? And was it was EP didn't have a name yet? Or was it still like I'm trying to figure like, what's what's going down? What are we doing? Is it gonna be multiple? I don't think it did yet. And what I what happened there was I really was having so many conversations with people about what was happening, what I was witnessing on the inside. And I kept trying to figure out, so always try to figure out how I could put David Daniels in my back pocket and bring him into that prison. But Texas is a long haul, you know, and David was really busy at the time. He always supported what I was doing. And he would listen with, like rapt attention when I was explaining it, but I really wanted people to feel it and to see it. And I saw a film that a guy named Joey had done and it made me cry. It had nothing to do with the Enneagram but it had to do with folks on the inside. And I got in touch with Joey and I said Can you can you make one of those for me on the Enneagram and he was like any What? He just said yes. Because he's, you know who he is. And he didn't know the Enneagram it didn't matter but he and and and also Christie, my my friend and connection from the inside help to line up a group of men who are really she could witness taking the time to heart. And that was that was really, really beautiful. Is Each person, I had like a mini interview, and each person and I knew their types, and I knew them. But you know, I was going for weekends several months apart wasn't like I was there every day. And I would ask them questions, and they would just say all the right stuff, because that's how the intagram works. And their awareness was there. And none of the end, Christy turned to each of them and said, What was it like to work with Susan. And I didn't really expect what would happen to me, that did happen, which was, they all said, these very beautiful things. And I could tell they were not scripted. They were straight from their hearts. And I was so uncomfortable receiving that, and I was realizing, oh, I'm gonna be, I'm gonna be forced real time to be, like, true to my word and do what I've been asking them to do with receiving as a muscle and let this in and let the other side be true and all that. And it was, it was quite a moment where I realized if I didn't do that, then I was full of it. And I didn't want to be a full of it. Teacher, I wanted to be a true teacher. That was a big turning point for me to what makes it hard to except that kind of stuff from from my perspective, I would, I would have loved it. Because I've, I never felt like I got a whole lot of that kind of stuff. And I suppose everybody would have their reason for running from stuff like they're avoiding it or not like feeling uncomfortable, whatever. But I, I really struggled to relate to that, because I would just like it was, it's always been like such a desperate need for me that I would have been like, fucking Thank you. Please, anything positive? I'll take it. What makes that uncomfortable in that moment? to just accept all that. It's not unlike that moment we had five minutes ago when you said I'm going to keep talking. So you can't say anything? That's a nice question. Right? Like, there is a part of me that liked it. Of course, I will. Maybe not, of course. But I definitely love to be told beautiful things about myself. And if I don't believe them, it's very hard to stay there. Because I think that's how ego works. His ego keeps telling us this other version of ourselves. And the thing that I was hearing was in congruent with the story that I had. And so when when we are in those places, I think we're forced, over invited to nobody's forcing anything to reconcile, which 1am I going to listen to? I think that hearing things that our income grew, and grew and grew, and with the story that we have about ourselves, is a real moment of having to reconcile What are we wanting to be more true. And I wanted that to be true, I wanted their experience of the NAMM to be true, I wanted them to have freedom inside of themselves. I really didn't want that as much for me as I wanted it for other people. And that was why I said yes to going in prison was so much conviction, I think because I think at the at the unconscious level, I felt like if it could be true for them, that it could also be true for me. And I feel I identify in the past tense and still can like I identify with the Type One on the panel who's doing all these unconscious things that are so hard for the people around him. And I think at that time, I was so full of those self doubts. And I had to make a pivot kind of on the spot. And every time I every time I teach in prison, every time I was going to that prison that was happening for me. I was realizing people were adoring me and what I was teaching and what was happening for me and projecting all these beautiful positive things onto me that were reflections of them. And I'm very skilled at an adapted, you know, deflecting that and referring that people back to themselves. What I think has has grown over the years is I can look in the mirror a lot with a lot more presence now. And I can I can withstand that affection and receive it more than more than ever. But it took a lot of time. So I don't know if that answers your question. It does. I like the I like the word withstand there. Because I think of it as like a, like a defensive but it's like being able to take it without it knocking you over. Is was there ever any i don't know, i i've bitten off more than I can chew kind of vibe or feeling or not or not even not even like big picture stuff. But just like I'll never do that again. Or that was you know, like, live and learn kind of stuff. Big or small. I don't know, just anything that that comes to mind. Thinking of like, like, I don't know, maybe even even if it was just like a fun little experience of well, we tried but you know Well, a couple things come to mind. One, one is not like I wouldn't do it again. But I remember a couple years in having found an opportunity to pilot a program in Helmand, and where I met Alex and Vic and Rene, eventually. And Neil Wani, who's now an advisory board member for TPP. She, she was quite protective, I think of the people that were going to be in the program. And she she watched me for a fair bit wanting to understand what this what my intentions were, I'm sure what the Enneagram was the program and wanting to see how people came out of it. And I don't know how long and to my volunteering at that. Jail, this happened. But at some point, it became clear that it was it was effective, and it was popular, and there was demand. And then she started to open up to me and say, not open up. But like the opportunities were opening up. And I remember sitting in, in her office, and knowing at the same thing, I had to go pick up my son probably wasn't first grade anymore, but I have three children, you know, and then in the space of five years, so they were they were at all different ages. And I had I was my first commitment was to be a really good mom and her saying, could you teach here Could you teach there we have six programs over here that could open up this part of the jail would like it, and I, all of a sudden I went back to my car, and I sat in the parking lot. And I put my head back and I fell asleep. I've never really had that before. And I first time I really got that that's a defense. And I, I wasn't that tired that day, but that I was only one person. And I was trying to figure out how am I going to respond to that? And where are all these guides going to come from? Now? This is many, many years ago. But that was a little bit of that, like what have I done, and it didn't last that long. And that lasted long enough to go get my boy and go back again the next day. It's funny, how many stories are like and I was on the way to get my kid or I had to go get my kid or one of my kids was at practice. Like there's there's not a lot of words that gets said without my kid wiggling its way in there at some point. It's funny, I've robbed a lot of banks, and I've been inside of a bank knowing that I was about to rob it and have felt less panic that I feel right now knowing that I've only got another 10 or 15 minutes. Like just sitting here chatting, which is a weird thing to say. Interesting thing you just said. likely a weird thing to hear. But it's just it is what it is. But I don't I don't know. I I wish I wish we had more time to do stuff like this. This whoever thought that this was a good idea needs a high five because I like it. It's fun. It's a great idea. Clay, I'm glad you're part and you know, you've got my my number we can definitely figure out more times. Well, I'm aware I know you have a heart out here and a few minutes. I want to leave space to just say anything that came to mind that there was never a question to answer whether anything, but is there anything left? You'd like to throw out there? Just anything that's on your mind? I went in like you did feeling like I was just going to chop it up with you not that I had a whole things I had a bunch of things to answer. But this is what's what I'm looking at right now. Over the weekend, I heard someone say, we can only become as light as we have been dark. And I liked it so much. I wrote it down so that I would read it over and over again throughout the days. And I think that's so deeply resonant with me that it gives me a lot of I think a lot of the hope that I feel when I'm on the inside is working with people who have been, you know, raised in childhoods full of darkness and have really done maybe some very dark things. I think it's that that touch. Not a touchstone I guess it's not that like a reference point for how bad things have been able been is what gives people such equanimity on the outside of her. ambassadors say this in their own way, all of them. But like, I'm so grateful for how things are today because I know where I've been and I have perspective on what really matters and I can feel my own place in the world because I know where I'm not and it's just it It strikes me. And I think that you are someone who's come through a lot of dark and you are someone who's here to shed a lot of light. And I love your voice. And I love how you're amplifying different pieces of this project for people who might not have heard all the little nooks and grantees and turned over a few stones today to

Unknown:

thank you clay