Sue Lambert is an Ambassador for the Enneagram Prison Project. She is also a guide and on the faculty for EPP. In this episode, fellow EPP Ambassador Clay Tumey sits down with Sue for a chat about getting out of jail, going back to prison, and a never-ending gift.
Special thanks to EPP Founder Susan Olesek for joining this conversation and helping to make this episode possible.
Also in this episode, we pause at 30:40 to share a few Words of Appreciation for Rick Olesek.
For more information about EPP, please visit EnneagramPrisonProject.org.
I identify with Type One. How could they do this? This is so wrong. This is against all the rules. It's like, there's not even a question that this is not right. The judge was even saying it wasn't right. The judge was even saying, you know, I wish I didn't have to do this. You're fully rehabilitated. It's on the court record, you're fully rehabilitated more than once, and you have to go to prison. Let me just repeat that. You're fully rehabilitated. And now I'm sending you to prison. Hi, my name is Clay. And this is season three of the Enneagram Prison Project podcast. In this episode, I sit down for a chat with Sue Lambert, who is an ambassador, among many other things for EPP. And we're also joined by EPP founder, Susan elastic. Before we get to that, I'd like to take a second and ask you to take a moment real quick, and leave us a rating in the podcast app, wherever you're listening to this right now. Whether it's Spotify, or Apple podcast, or really wherever else, you're able to hear this one star, three star, five stars, whatever is true for you. We'd love to know what you think. We're glad you're here. Thanks for listening. This is the Enneagram Prison Project podcast. If you don't mind, of course, I think most folks will know you've been on the podcast before Susan. But who else do we have the privilege of sitting with today chatting with today? Anything that you want to include? Let us know. Oh, great. Sue Lambert. And yeah, anything else I'd include is I don't mind the road back to the road. I don't mind the road but but I do know my limitations. So as I've gotten older, you know, night. So I'm just I just go slower. But I used to like cook gets way to any point is a straight line. So you know those curves, let's just cut them this way. Like, this way. What is your what is your connection to EPP? It's like, actually, sometimes I feel like it's just my my whole body and heart and head is just probably EPP just totally absorb both ways. It's EPP absorbed me and I absorbed it. So and I'm I'm a I'm an ambassador. And I'm a guide and a faculty member. And yeah, I'm a life coach. And and I'm just a human being and a grandma and a mom. And, and I'm just really lucky to be here in my life right now guiding. I love guiding more than anything love going inside. And that was always my goal. When I was inside, I never forget the day that I saw Susan wearing that freedom key around your neck. Remember the freedom to freedom. Okay, Freedom bracelets and necklaces. Yeah. And I asked her, How do you get one of those? She said, You have to be an ambassador when you become an ambassador. And I you know, I already knew I wanted to keep going with EPP but at that time, I really didn't know what my future was. I hadn't been sentenced yet. So What year was this? I started EPP my first class. I think it was 215 but I graduated the first class and 216 And what do you think an ambassador was at that time? Well, I think that you told us if I remember right, that to be an ambassador, you're like a spokesperson for EPP and what I knew was, I mean, I had this vision of someday being able to come back I can say to help people, and and I also knew that I wanted to, you know, stay connected with EPP because it helped me to first off know me know myself and to like, be a better meet. So I just didn't know how that would unroll in the future. But that was my, that was my hope back then. Yeah. And the key was nice. But I would have I would have went forward without the key to the key was nice. And and I took the class, I think five times. And then. And then I was released for a while. And when was that? I was released in 2017. I had to be 17. And, like, February ish, somewhere around there. No, it was right. week before Thanksgiving. Oh, I had it backwards. Yeah. And, and it makes sense in a second, probably. And at the time, my attorney told me that I was in there for about like a year, a little over a year and a half. And you know, at that time, my attorney told me, I wasn't expecting to get out. But she let me out on O R. And court probation. Maybe you could say what o r means for folks who don't, you know, letting letting me out. Like, own recog. I never say recall, reconnaissance reconnaissance. And I put a G in there for probation means that you, you still have to report to a probation person. But your your case is pending. Something is going on. And in my case, I had a co defendant that, you know, what's fighting everything. And so until his stuff went through, mine just would be on hold. And I think my, my original agreement of a sentence was seven years. And, you know, with all the math and everything, how they do it. I was spending my time in jail. And I think they, you know, wanted to have something over my head, because they were going to pull me into court to be a witness for Yeah. So, but anyway, that day, I got out, my attorney told me that the judge will not put me back in, she's gonna let you go, you just have to show her all this time is pending. And you're on probation that you can, you know, toast the line and, and, you know, do what you say you're going to do. And so they had me on a really strict probation, it was weekly. I had to go in weekly and I had to get alcohol tested every week. And if any of those things, you know, showed any kind of problem, then they take that away and put me back. How far can they test for alcohol? Isn't? Is it just that day? Or do they can they go back the previous seven days that were in that whole week? Well, I had to go every week. Alright, so if you went in on a Friday, how would they know if you were drinking on Tuesday? Or does it even that? Did they even care that much? I think it must stay in your in your system somehow because I'd go on Wednesdays and it was same day, same time. And every time they'd give you a breath breath. breathalyzer. Yeah, by the way, I don't know if we're kind of sad. The G might be there, Susan. I'm gonna check. Yeah. Well, yeah, notice I sidestepped the word is asking you because I was gonna sidestep the words. So that one I know Yeah. Yeah, I was like, really happy when you said, Oh, yeah. So I did that. And then it would, it went on forever. The court probation because the system is very slow. It's especially when someone's biting something. So with him fighting it, it's like delay, delay, delay delay. And so I was just back with EPP because I was out and I was getting involved and going to the weekly meetings and taking you're taking crushing it? I was you were crushing it. Well, I couldn't get an it's it's it's like I guess for some people, some people go to like an A, or whatever, that that just fits in their life and it shows them a different way or whatever. And EPP was that way for me. I mean, it was I, I really needed to know, it wasn't just the substance abuse, or the pill abuse, or the, you know, the gambling addiction or the food addictions. It wasn't just that it was why, how do I, how do I get out of this mess and stay out of this mess? And I tried a before and you know, I just, it just didn't, what didn't work, it didn't work for me, I'd always come up with an excuse, or somebody else would cheat. And then I'd say, Oh, well, okay, I'll cheat this time, but then I'll start again next week. And so it was just those are, that's a whole different world compared to what I have learned in EPP. Because EPP for me, it's like a way of being, it's a way of living, not just for the moment or the evening or something, it's for always a, you know, I never really understood what transformation work was. So this is all new to me. We were in a class yesterday, Susan and I and it was a closing and a what one of the we were asking what they had learned or what they were taking away. And one of them said that. And he was pointing to some of the posters that we had up. He said, I never knew what any of this was. I've never heard this stuff, you know, the self awareness stuff. And the things that we were teaching the pausing taking a pause, taking a breath, the meditations, is just like self observing. And he was like, I never knew what any of these things were until this, I took this class. And when he said that, it's like, you know, exactly. That was exactly me that then had no idea. And why would you? Why would you? Well, I wouldn't because I had no idea that there was a personality and that it wasn't me. Right? Nobody's been explaining that for you throughout your life or mine or yours for that matter. Yeah. So yeah, that was that was like my rolling into a EPP and, and I just stayed with it and started going to classes and starting to find out, you know, how I could get through the training to become a guide. And that, you know, we have this guide training program. And, you know, I'm sure you'll remember it clay. I don't know if you'll remember the details. But in the first guide training program, I think it was guide training program one. Oh, that's what we call it, then. You were there. So one, I don't know. It depends on how much GTP or even before that TTP when we before we still have teachers, that was it. We were TTP. Yeah, well, we had the pilot. We had the first TTP. And before that, we also had the pilot for TTP. And yeah, teacher training program teacher training program. That was it. And we were at Rosa. Yes. And, and so I was like, Oh, I don't know. Like, I'm like, Yeah, I don't know if I'm gonna be able to manage all this type information and, and all these different things. And, and part of that training was we had to get up on the stage, the little area there and do our presentation. And that's always fun, isn't it? Oh, yeah. It's like that was I mean, actually, you did a great presentation. Presentation. Yeah. She did a great presentation. Okay. And I don't know if you, I think you were before me. And it's like an and when it was my time to get up. I got up and I stood there and I cried. I was so you know, early young and then you had said to me well, when did you get out? And it would was only like a year super reason. Super recently and you told me that's why you know, it's just too soon. Too much too soon. And and so yeah, I just stayed with it and and I so appreciated that holding for me and and, you know, it It's like I said, in our class this week, it's like I've been when we talk about transformation and change, I've been in my, in those, those processes, processes for like 6060 years. And then I'm learning something new and trying to make new brain patterns and new habits and new ways of doing things. And as I was telling the guys yesterday, it's like, it takes time. You know, it takes time to build on these things. And it's, and back then I, I needed more time. You know, recently I heard Alex say, I've only been doing this transformation work for nine years. So really, I'm only about nine. Yeah, give me a minute. That's a fair way to put it. Because I think there's a lot of, especially when you like, I don't know, there's a certain thing about when you already know how to do something, it but you're doing it wrong to the process of not just replacing that but unlearning the thing that you're doing. And I don't know, the psychology behind it. I don't know, the scientific way to say it. But I do know that there. For me, at least. And from what I know others, there's a certain process that has to exist where I undo before I redo. And it makes sense. Like it's logical. I wouldn't mind talking to like a neurologist or something about that. Or maybe maybe you know, or maybe you know what that is, but it's a thing. And it's totally fair to say that I'm only nine years into this. So I'm like a nine year old, it's a totally fair way to put it, and to be even be trying to teach in that situation a year or so after being out. It's just like, I wouldn't, I didn't, me. Before, I want to ask a question real quick. This has been on my mind for a second. A moment ago, you said to sue, you were crushing it. And I was hoping that she that somebody would go into the detail of what that was, because I'm wondering, so now I'm just going to ask you, Susan, what did that look like? It's sometimes it can be I get complimented, and I don't want to talk about it. So I'm not going to ask you sue to tell me how awesome she was. But you from your perspective, can totally say that. What was what was the crushing it about? Well, in so many ways, and I hope you'll chime in, but we've taught 1000s and 1000s of people our curriculum, over 6000 I think and that's just counting people who've finished all the weeks that we offer the thing that doesn't count the people that leave in the seventh week or whatever. And we have 12 Ambassadors, right? So it's a big funnel, and it's a small number that come out the other end and actually reach back out. That's number one that's crushing it. That means you you value yourself enough to know that you belong yourself into a community did that and and then beyond that, to keep saying yes to the things that come that you didn't stand up in front of all those people and see where you were inside yourself and and then there were other things that really were just incredible. You were working at CEO and you were placing people at different jobs that had recently been released, and the O 's center of employment opportunities and they're cool organization and Sue won a national award for her ability to please people Yeah, and that was well at the time, EPP was a smaller organization and so you know that worked out with my continuing myself work with ongoing trainings inside EPP outside EPP and also putting you know putting my time into eventually be a guide you know, learning what I could learn so I found this organization CEO and they were looking for a job developer and and you know, when you get out there's just you know, there's just there's like, there's not a lot of decent paying jobs around for people when they're released. And everybody wants to give you the the minimum wage job and in a lot of people think you should be thankful that we're offering you that because you have a record warehouse we're cashier work this work that work all the things washing cars, you know, picking up trash, you know, what, what, what have you and so I had a little bit of business experience. So I applied for the job and it was another one like EPP Where is one of the prerequisites for Ambassador is this you have to have been incarcerated. You chuckling but you know, until you've been through this job meal, trying to find a job with this behind you. Its CEO has that same requirement. No. Oh, but they're open. Okay. And when they say open, they mean open. Yeah, because they see the value in in somebody that's working to Change Your Life, they see the value and how that can help other people. And they're working with people. CEO has a contract with like, they're they're nationwide, there's like eight branches, and they have a contract with the states, they're in to clean the highways, back to the old cleaning the highway. But what happens is as well the person comes came out and, and got connected with CEO. They had job training, different different kinds of construction training and things like that to help people get certified in this and that. And while they were doing it, they'd work on the highway program, and then they get paid daily, which when you get out, you don't have any money. Right? Right. So if we give you a card, and then you go do some work, and you get paid daily, then you get to eat and get a hotel if you have to. Yeah, so it was a pretty good organization. That was kind of a big deal. I didn't think about that. But when you get out there is that, like, when I got it, I got a job pretty fast. And I had a lot of ways it was pretty easy breezy for me. And so I missed a lot of the struggles that some folks experience, like I got plenty of the ones that everybody experiences. But with the pay, I didn't think about that that's a good idea, you work Monday, get paid Monday, through Tuesday get paid Tuesday. And you know, there's no stress of making it two weeks or one week even for groceries and stuff like that. And I used to know all the numbers behind like employment and how it connected to recidivism. And I don't know those numbers anymore. But I can say just anecdotally, that if you don't work, your chances to stand out pretty low. Like if you if you get out and don't get a job, almost always you go back. And so getting employment is a big deal. And that's cool. I know a little bit about that organization, because I remember you work for him, but I didn't know that it was quite like that. And you have a bit of a superpower, I think of being able to really feel people and where they do well and actually feel where they are like what they can handle. And I bet that really played into how you were you were deft at being able to place people where they could make it? Well, it's a two sided job. It's like, part of the job developer is this you go out into the community into the the the world, and you go to companies and you present the CEO program and get them to approve hiring people with a history. And so so the reason that, you know, there's lots of reasons why that works, but one of the reasons is, is if that, that already if they agree, and they, you know, go with the program, and they agree that they'll hire people with a background, and you talk to them, they may want a certain experience or whatever. But the thing is, is that now you have a person that's dealing with their past, and already the first hurdle has been taken down. Because now they don't have to go through that difficult question of where have you been the last 10 years? And we we would teach people how to answer that question. Because we would do mock interviews, we would get people clothing. And you know, we had connections with housing and things like that, all things, it's all about helping when people get out. But, but that was and why did I leave? It was rough. They really wanted me to stay. But I had to leave, because I got a call from my attorney that said, Okay, your your, your guy is your codefendants all done, you just have to come sign some papers. And so he said, Come to come to the court on Friday, and you've been out for how long? I've been out for almost two years. And so he said, Come on Friday. So you know, I let I let my work know I was going to be okay. And when I just knew when I walked in this courthouse and saw his face that something was wrong. And this was your lawyer that had you come in? Yeah. And he says, Well, there's a problem. He's an older guy you've ever Well, there's some problem, but I'm working on I'm working on it. He goes, we're gonna have to there's something on the plea agreement that we signed, and they, you know, thought I'd uh, and I think that we can get it removed, I have to talk to the judge, I'm going to go into the chambers and actually inter inter meant became pretty good, but because I have to go into the chambers and he came back and he goes, Well, there's a problem. He goes, there was something on your plea agreement that says you have to go to prison. And I said, Well, wait a minute. You said I was done. And, you know, she wouldn't let me out if I had to go back and all this stuff. And he goes, Well, I missed this. And it means, you know, he said it could be anywhere from six months but to a year to a year. I'm not sure Yeah, I have to work this out. That you'll have to go to isn't. And I was just like, shocked. I'm dumbfounded. I mean, what? What do I say to my job to the car that I'm making payments on to the commitments that I have in every life that I've recreated to be in this world, and worked so hard for to get reestablished? Because it's so hard for people. I would say a relatively short time, people with longer times, it's just so hard to get reestablished in the world. And I had done that for myself. And now, I had a week. And I'm grateful for that week, to be honest with you, because they could have put me in handcuffs right at that moment. And take me away. And then I had the week to, to get my business things in order and my life, and I had to go back and turn myself in. Who's the first person you talk to about that? Once you left there? Or, you know, a call you made or whatever, the first person I talked to was Susan, that go. I mean, it could have been my daughter, they were like, right next to each other. It's like, I couldn't say for sure. It was one or the other. I'm pretty sure it was Susan. I was just like, dumbfounded that who can understand this better than her that the system and how something can be so fouled up and how they jerk people around and and that a judge doesn't have the power? That I thought they had to say, you know, like you see on TV, let's throw this out. You know, it's like, let's do this. We'll do that. It's like, because this was a signed agreement from 2016. The agreement couldn't be changed, unless I agreed to throw it out. Which meant you were at risk of exactly a more new trial. Yeah. After I've already spoke about the crime and everything else. And the CO defendants does hissing and spoke about the crime. Persecution free to just be like, hey, nevermind. We don't we don't want to press the issue here. I mean, that's because it seems to me, like I mean, I know Hollywood screws up plenty. So I'm not relying on what I've learned there. But just what I know from had gone through plenty of legal processes, it feels like a judge should be able to just say, Hey, this is like time served or whatever. And it seems it's not I'm not questioning the validity of any of this. I'm just saying like, it doesn't seem right, that a judge couldn't just be like, hey, nevermind, like this is you don't need to go back. You've been out, you're doing fine. What the hell? Well, he couldn't because, you know, that's why we have a supposedly competent attorney, because this was an enhancement. And after, after this, like a year or so after this enhancements got dropped, except not this enhancement. This enhancement is not one of the ones that got dropped. It's like three, three of them didn't three felonies didn't this was one of them. But the thing is, is that we had a plea agreement in 2016 or early 17, right in there. And it had this enhancement on there. And on the enhancement, it said you have to serve minimum of six months in prison, not jail prison. But my attorney missed it. And he said, he said, he said, It's okay. Don't worry about it. It's good sign it and handed it to me to sign. And then with him telling me that I was I was done. I was, you know, you count on? Yeah. And so she couldn't change what was already agreed on. Unless they threw it out and started over. Sorry, go ahead. No, thank you. The DA would not do that. I can only imagine being in those shoes. And I'd probably call Susan first. And, and I know what it would sound like from me because it would be can I believe this shit. These motherfuckers like, I would be enraged. I would want I would not i i would just be out to be like a water hose that somebody just turned on full blast, and I just be going around everywhere. And I don't I can't imagine going through that kind of situation. And I know I only know that from like my perspective what I would probably do, and I'm gonna ask a nosy question and just say what, what I'm curious what the call sounded like or what But what was it? Like? It wasn't easy it was it was it? Cuz you know, your life is changing at that point, you know, and people, by the way to the listener who says was only six months, fuck all that that's a long time first of all, if you've never been much less if you've been out and going back in, it's a big deal. So I'm dismissing on your behalf I'm dismissing anybody who says that is check yourself because that's not that's six months is a big deal. Minimum six months is a big deal. It's a big deal. Yeah, we have folks who struggle to go back in as a guest. Like it's not, it's not a good place to be. Hey, y'all, it's Clay, I'm gonna pause here real quick to share a few words of appreciation for EPs Executive Director, Rick alethic. Now, Rick is absolutely one of my favorite people on the planet. And I don't know who else I would even put in that list. But he is definitely on the list. Early on in my Enneagram journey. I don't like to admit this. But I'll just say with full transparency that I really struggled with Type Seven. And I don't know if that's because I'm a Type Five, or something else that's going on, not my dilemma to solve at this moment. But I'll tell you that I really struggled in particular with this idea that joy is important that options are a big deal. And I just I looked at Type Seven very judgmentally in my own struggles to understand why it is that those things were important. And one of my favorite memories with EPP with Rick and life in general is back in 2013. When we went to Denver to the IEA conference there, it was the first time that we had really kind of presented EPP to the world, I guess. And it was a big deal. We were on panel, it was myself, Susan, another Ambassador named Elam. And after that experience, I was so drained, and I was not prepared for how tired and nervous and anxious and just really energetically drained I would be. And I just needed to leave, I needed to go somewhere. And of course, I'm in another town without a car. And Rick said, Hey, let's just go for a drive. And he had a suggestion of where to go, who to be with, and all these options and all these things to do. And I'll tell you, it played a major role in me being able to just survive that weekend, because I was so ill prepared for going and just giving myself to that many people. And it was at that moment in that weekend where I realized, Oh, this is one of many things that we can love about Type Seven. And then also me personally, this is this is a new friend of mine. And this is somebody who I knew previously, you know, it's not that I just didn't know who he was. But I really made a friend that weekend. And here we are a decade plus later I can say that our friendship has only grown. I appreciate the hell out of Rick, he is he is just one of my favorite people. My favorite ride from the airport, my favorite sports, you know, fan to sit and watch a game with my favorite person is just talk on the phone with about nothing and everything. And I don't know where we'd be without folks like Rick. And without Rick specifically, he's a hell of a guy. I love him to death. And here are a few other folks who would like to tell you a few things about how they experienced Rick elastic. What high super appreciate about Rick Olesek was just completely coming up in my heart and body rate in this moment is His gentleness. Like, I sit and I watch Rick, juggle so many balls and do so many things. And he let you know come up with a list of 500 computer programs that I've never heard of and how they could help EPP and connect people from here and there and everywhere. And think about money and organization and spreadsheets and committees and circles. And then every single time bring it back to the heart of why we do this work. The heart of every single person he's talking to, with when I come up with one of my big ideas like oh, let's do this and we could do that and he's right away thinking like not just who needs to be talked to to make it happen but how people feel about it. So absolutely. One of the things I appreciate about Rick is his huge, big brained connectedness that he brings to everything that he does. But ruderal The deep down what like touches me and inspires me about Rick is the gentleness and heartfulness and hope. Rick wants to change the world. And he wants to like, create an entire scaffolding to help others change the world. For them. It is such a beautiful quality, I want to give him a big hug right now, I'm so grateful that I get to appreciate Rick, he does not get enough credit, no matter how much credit he gets, he's not getting enough credit he is in all the spaces doing all the things, always pitching in. I mean, night or day, he's getting back to us. And Rick really has this beautiful quality of listening from all angles, and synthesizing the information that's being said in a way that is easy to understand. And he always gives these sweet sport metaphors that I completely can't comprehend. And I think he can see the look on my face. And then he gives me another one that I can comprehend. And it's just full of them in the most beautiful way. And I think Rick, amongst others Evans in EPP, but I think Rick has really taught me I think he's really taught me how much heart sevens have how much heart as head types we can access inside of ourselves, because my bias is to think that I can't access my own heart. So it's inspiring and contagious in the best way to be with Rick and experience His heart and His care how quickly he'll go to his tears in the most beautiful way and just own them. Rick appreciating the hell out of you for all that you do, but also how you be thank you so much, EPP would not be what it is without you. And I mean that in a million ways I appreciate about Rick is his accessibility to all of us. Rick has a busy calendar if you've ever wanted to get on it, but it's always open somewhere and he welcomes any call that I've ever tried to have with him, even just to sit and have coffee together on Zoom. That is amazing accessibility for someone who wears so many hats, and has so much to do within this organization. More than I probably even know about. So I do appreciate that. Also, I appreciate that Rick is present for 15 minutes, when we have those calls, or however long they are. I think that's amazing that someone can stop the busyness and be that present to anything. Knowing that Rick is a man who wears lots of different hats in EPP I appreciate that when I am out with him. He laughs a lot and brings a joyful presence making me want to lighten up and I know this is very true my Type Seven friends but Rick possesses that like, like Rick does. So that joy the laughter and the accessibility that's my appreciation that the moment in my heart mind and body for recall Lesyk class that we taught over the weekend was really hard to get the men's attention because there was a glass window between us and the Jeep the general population that was out there in REC time and it took all of our energy mine and Susan's I think to hold the class for to the last few days. And when I when we heard that Rick was coming it was like oh my god, I'm just like, we're like oh my god I'm so happy we're gonna make it we're gonna make it because we have Rick coming and it's like that energy that he brings and that he could absorb he could be like a shock absorber we need a break give us the P their force. But the thing is, is like bricks like that with everything. I see him like that when I when I'm at that point, Rick is always there for me to be like the shock absorber that that helps me lighten up and to and to see the light. See the positive and all that and and that's I love that so much about him. I love him. Rick has been a huge part of my growth over the past several years. We worked so closely together and sharing the same type structure is often often more of a mirror than I even want but I'm so grateful for it, I think one of the biggest things he's taught me is grace. He has a way of helping me. Understand, I don't need to hold all the other wheat I hold and the pressure that I often feel on wanting to do well and support everybody around the project. And he holds so much. And he holds all of it with grace. And he is also such a safe place for me to process when I'm really struggling. And I just know, I'm so safe in that space. I've learned so much from him on my personal development as well as professionally, and so appreciate the way the way he be. Rick, you are wonderful. And I'm grateful for you, and the way you support the project and the way you support me. I remember the first time I met Rick, he was on panel inside Santa Clara County Jail. And he came up all smiles and just felt like this giant ball of goodness and joy. And I was like, I want some of that. Whatever he's gotten going on, that's what I want. I want that to you. And then the panel started and I heard him share some really tender stuff, some precious moments to him. And I was just like, wow, he is just like me, we're he just he shows up another way but on the inside the he's dealing with stuff just like me, and it was so it felt like a whole nother connection inside my mind was made just from witnessing, witnessing him. And I'm so appreciative of that, and of, of the way that Rick's able to show up and hold so much in so much space. And there's been times on other places where I've been in places with him and I'm, I'm reactive, and I'm pissed. And I want this and I want that. And then I hear Rick speak. And I'm like, oh yeah. But I don't have to be like that. And, and my ways, not the only way and, and, and to see all the different possibilities, and all the different perspectives and and Rick gives me so much insight in those areas. And in a lot of ways grounds me in so many different places. That but I'm just able to continue to learn and grow from witnessing Rick, and how he shows up. And I'm so inspired by that I'm so I hold that very dear to me. And I'm so grateful for you, Rick, and I'm so grateful for all the work you're doing and all the places you are and I'm so, so grateful that you're able to not see things black and white all the time, like how I like to show up. And I just really want to wish you such a an amazing day and a happy birthday. And I'm so so happy to be in this community and doing this work with you. So thank you, Rick, when he did come in, it's not the the Tigger that other people might have in mind. Even if you've met Rick he can be like ticker, the wonderful thing about ticker tickers are wonderful things. It's more that Rick came in with some real gravitas and he he sat down and he was really grounded from the gecko. He knew that there was a lot of dysregulation in the classroom. So he kind of, you know, had that heads up. And, and when he when he comes like that he can accept good word so he can absorb. And he can also reflect we did a breakout and we gave him one of the quietest guys in the room to see what would Rick might be able to do. And he when they finished because like I really liked him. And of course, he would really like him of course he would see the light in him. And I've I've had the privilege of being with Rick since he was 24 until now and I've been able to well we've been able to watch each other grow. And I think a good three to five times a week where you stand somewhere in this house and hold each other and say I'm so I'm so lucky to go through life with you. I'm so, so lucky. He that, that my partner loves what we do together. How people used to say that, hey, I use such a special soul. And it makes me really happy that other people see that I want to hear more about when you got out after that, and what what it was like getting out a second time, I suppose. Did you know the actual date? You were getting out for a while? Or was it just a surprise to you one day? Just surprise me one day? Hey, go get out here. Yeah, I think they told me they did. They did I think they told me the evening before because my daughter drove down to get me and she drove that day to come get me so so well, that was nice walking out those gates. And that part is just like the movies you know, the guy up above me up in the tower like with this shotgun thing and me like saying, you know so long it's so much nicer and a different hand gesture by the way that folks would have done like, you know so long and the first thing we did we went to in and out burgers members for meal we did we went to in and out burgers and I hardly eat it was just like too much too fast. And I was just so happy to be here, be there with her and, and hold her and touch her and and we came home. And she was just her wonderful self. And I call Susan i The moment I got in the car and I got her phone or I called you and you put me on speaker I think and The celebration The the relief that I didn't tie in there. And then and then then I came home. And I think my daughter took me to Walmart. And that was shocking because some of the things they sell on commissary or at Walmart and on Walmart, that would be 99 cents on on commissary. That's like 999 Yeah. So. But for the listener, that's not an exaggeration. No ramen noodle soup on the inside at some of the places where I was would be like $1 for a package. That's right, and then out here at Walmart, you can get a case for $3.24 or whatever it was at the time. Exactly. Right. That's a ridiculous markup. Well, that's another whole podcast. Because if we get into the money making of pretense that's, that's like another whole, unbelievable. But so you go to Walmart, to Walmart to this set, and I settle in and then I start the steps of trying to get my identification. But nobody wants to give me identification unless you have identification. And where have you been in the last six months? And what is this going on? So the nuts, the chase of paper. And it's funny, it's like and I've heard this for more than one person that inside prison, they they actually meet with you and we're gonna make this easier for you. We're gonna get this information from you, we'll have this ready for you and then they have nothing ready for you. And so you're out there. So trying to gather all this up. But I will never forget that everybody was so kind, you know, that are close to the people. I talked about my daughter and my son in law EPP and it was it was during the faculty retreat. I think it was faculty was here. And I came down here. Wasn't sure how that was going to be. But I came down here. I don't know if it was even on faculty that no I wasn't on faculty debt. But they invited me down and I was here and Rebecca was here doing some work. It might have been some kind of other meeting. But Rick, Susan putting my arms on her and putting my arms around her and touching her live and you know, it's like the feeling of safety know the feeling of safety and I'm, I'm I'm home I'm safe. This is reality. I'm here today. I was there yesterday. It's just a lot of adjustment. EPP course, Susan and Rick is when I say EPP always think of Susan and Rick and Rick came up to me and took me into the other room and sat me down on the couch. I don't know if you even saw that, Susan. I don't remember they took me up above. And he sat me down on the couch. And he got kind of kneel down on the floor. And he put his hand on my hand. And he said, to how are you? And I answered him, and he said, I don't want you to do anything you don't want to do. I want you to pick what you want to do, and EPP and do what you want to do. You know, not what you think you have to do, or to do this. And to do that he goes, I just want I just want you to know that it's all okay, everything's gonna be fine. And I want you to do I want you to be able to pick and choose what you want. And it was like, that was like so kind. It was like when we were just learning about teal. And it was just so kind to have that kind of holding and no pressure and just giving me that space it was and I meant so much to me, that meant so much to me. What EPB helped me through through that whole ordeal and then coming back to that was no Yeah. And I chose to not go back to CEO and stay with EPP and continue on my path to become a guide. And I'd already started that path. So I know it's hard to believe but when I was out before I had to go to prison I had already done some co practicing in San Bruno jail. So I'd already started it because I know this is complicated but because I wasn't sentenced yet. If you ran my name I wouldn't have a record when I was on court probation for that year and a half or two years so it wasn't a conviction right so you could get in pretty easily yeah let's see how convenient so here I totally here I am. Abell a felon right and all this stuff that's not supposed to be able to go in but because it was hung up put this person yeah you weren't a felon. Yeah, I wasn't Yeah, so I got into San Quentin I got into every place because I was on court probation nothing was on the records and I got to start like my co guiding in San Bruno jail with Dana and Susan for like three months and off and on. And and it worked out it worked out and so but now I'm convicted and so now when I go to go back into the same place is that let me in do you see how bizarre this all is? Like I'm okay to go into over here. That Oh, she's rehabilitated but she's got to go to prison. Okay, she does. She's not she's out of prison, but now she's a convicted felon. So now the places we proved her for before we can't let her in. There's something unsafe a powder. But anyway, almost like it doesn't make any damn sounds almost like we don't have it figured out here in the land of the free. Don't get me started. Don't get you started. But you know what I say words. I look at it this way. Sometimes it's very frustrating when I think of all that but I am like the first ambassador that was able to go back inside and teach or guide. And I feel like I'm kind of setting a pathway for a masters behind me to come because I've no I've no, I've written the award and letters. And I've gone through the paces of all the different things See and and question things that came up that, like set me aside from some other guide to find out why I'm being treated differently than that guide. It's I kind of look at it. It's like it's setting a path for people to come behind me. Hmm. Because you know, I'm 73 right this year 73. So hopefully I'll be here a long time. You're not just sending a pass. You're blazing a trail, I think. And this week has been especially like that I spent the last. We're joking when she came in the door. I was like you tired of me yet? It's for the last four days straight, literally with each other. In in the jail on on Friday. I'm not stealing any thunder. You tell him what you were doing on Friday? Oh, on Friday? Well, before I leave the blazing trail, I want to ask you a question clay. You did the GT TTP training and all that. And why are you guiding? I feel like I'm in a parole board hearing. And I'll talk about I'm fine. I'll be right back though I got it. No. It's actually a pretty, there's a few, there's a few reasons actually one of them because I went through all the training, right? Even before we had training, and I'd gone through, so I and I actually went all the way up to all the way to the end tour, all I had to do is submit my packet. It's like, it's the easiest homework ever. And I just didn't. And part of that I will gladly share publicly, and then the rest I won't. The part that I don't mind saying is that i i There was a lot of pressure that I put on myself. This is just what should happen. I went to prison, I learned this on the inside. Of course I should give back by being a guide. We didn't say guide yet we still said teacher. And like it just it was almost like an automatic thing that I just assumed was how it should be. And so I went along with it because of the should have. And there was a point where I started thinking, like, Am I doing this because I want to and like doing this because I I should do it or am I obligated some other way. And that coincided with also, I'm the first in a lot of categories with EPP and I kind of wanted to just not be the first for every, like, it was totally possible that I could have been the first in like, years and years of categories of whatever, I just didn't want to do that. And I kind of wanted to get out of the way. And none of those things are a single reason for why I'm not a guide. They all just kind of work together. And actually, I don't mind sharing this publicly, I was gonna keep this to myself. And if I change my mind later and edit it out, that's fine. The sort of the, the process of being certified, I found myself not agreeing with it. And the way that went about certifying folks. And I didn't, I felt like I got a lot of freebies, in a lot of ways. And when you're up, we know this, like as an ambassador of VPP, you get there's a certain privilege about that. And I am aware of that. And I didn't want that. And I don't I don't think that others have taken advantage of I just for me, it was just a personal thing where I was like, I don't want to I don't want to just, I don't actually wasn't sure of myself, to where I thought I could earn it. And I didn't want to doubt whether or not I earned it. And I didn't want to ever think that it was just given to me. And that's, that's a big part of it. The other stuff I said about not wanting to be the you know, first for all these for everything, that's part of it. And then also I don't have a desire to guide I don't I love the things that I do. I love going in as an ambassador, I love sitting alongside guides in class, and I love representing the group that we're trying to reach. And I love all that. And I think that there's a limit to how much we can do. And I don't think that I don't have the desire. And I also don't think that I have the space I guess to do that. I don't want to go through GTP I've been through it on on this side as an ambassador and I've helped and I've been I've put in the hours. I mean I I've it's not a matter of time, like I've put in the time that folks have put in but it's different and I don't I don't want to do that. It's it's it's hard to an extent that I'm not willing to do that yet. And maybe that'll change. It's not a permanent, you know, screw that I'm never doing it. It's just right now, as we sit in 2023, I don't see that being something that I want to do. And maybe it changes next year. Who knows? I love the possibilities that you always bring when you share like that. That it's like it is there is an intelligence there of the noticing that the expectation of you know, the expectation that, that you could even notice that and then even know that you always have the option if you decide to it's like, the, that's the possibilities that you bring. And I noticed that you bring that a lot in when we're in our ambassador meetings, too. It's like, I love the possibilities that that sometimes my mind is like not even thinking that I'm not even there. And so I totally respect all that so much. And so thank you for sharing. Thanks for asking. Thanks for putting me on the dance spy. Little clay Tumey She pulled on you. It's fun, though. No. And I try to encourage people like do that. It's so much more enjoyable for me to exist in a conversation like that, where I might get hit with some because that's, to me, that's what the podcast is really about. It's not about and like I said earlier, it's not an interview. I'm not. I'm not here to extract information. I just want to have a conversation with people that I and I think other folks would want to hear that. And so it's nice. So I mean, to anybody listening to this, who might be on a future episode, do it do it, who just did like, feel free to throw that out there? And I always have the freedom to just not answer. And I don't feel obligated obligated to answer. And I also like to answer questions. It's fun. To me, that's that is a larger part of what I've experienced in my role as an ambassador is, is just talking through things that I experience. So that's cool. I dig it. I dig it. Dig it, I dig because you mentioned this a couple times earlier. And this does, I guess matter to the bigger story, but I'm curious, so maybe it does. What how's your car doing? What's the car that you mentioned about not being able, you know, whatever became of that in the car that you had when you went back in? A friend of mine Well, through EPP helped me, actually and gave me a loan. And and I'm happy to say I paid back every penny, and but he gave me a loan to cover my car payment, my insurance that I had to have because I have a loan on the car. My storage unit. He covered my bills for seven months. I gave him he uh, he asked me and I gave him the figure and he covered my bills. And then as soon as I got out, I got on a payment plan. And he was just so generous with the payment plan. And I paid them off and Yeah, well you didn't lose your car did not lose my car. You know what I paid for that? I put a down payment on it and everything. So it's like I had money into it. And and I and I'm like so fortunate that was the case because it made starting over again. Not so hard. You know, to get out and have a car with the insurance and it's like, so. Yeah, it's a pretty big deal. Is that the car? You're still driving? Yeah. I can see down the driveway. 2016 or 17 pretty blue. But thank you. I wanted blue. It's a it's a Nissan Rogue. Yeah, not too big. It's it's small enough. I wanted something that I can make sure I can take my grandkids to and from school. You know, so it's perfect for that. space in the back. I've driven I've never owned one but I've driven tons of them as a rental. I like them quite a bit. Yeah, we're talking about cars on the EPP podcast, car talk here. Also have the urge to just say something about and hope it's appropriate. But I actually get irritated when folks talk about quote unquote rich people and how selfish they are and stingy with it. I have through EPP I've met so many people who are they got a lot more zeros behind their name and I do in terms of what they have in the World Wealth wise. And my experience has been so opposite of what people say and the generosity that that I've experienced from some of those Folks, it's pretty outrageous. And I get a little irritated when I when I hit people out in the wild talking about rich people, because they just have this, there's this stereotype. And I just don't I haven't experienced that many wealthy people who are good people are looking for good places to put their money to use. You remind me that the way that you said that is I can more succinctly say what I think is I genuinely genuinely believe that inside of all of us is a good, it's a ball of goodness, looking for a place to happen. And I think that is absolute. Across the board. Doesn't matter who you are, what you did, none of that stuff. I genuinely believe that, that all of us have that, inside of us just looking for a place to happen. And it's a struggle for some of us more than others. But I think that it still exists. Whether it's I'll just say absolutely across the board. I think that's the thing. So yeah, anything else? And then coming up for you or any any thoughts or questions you've been just kind of chillin? I honestly feel like I'm just on the couch here enjoying, to people I love so much chop it up about something that's so important. And I'm to riff off of what you were just sharing clay, I'm glad you know, you don't want to be a guy. Because if you were you might not have a podcast going on here, right? I mean, not everybody has guiding on their heart is not the whole thing of what EPP is, and was so small, like you said, when you went to prison Su and we're a whole lot bigger. Now. There's a lot to do. So I'm glad that you live into your gifts. And this is a precious conversation. There's been a long time coming. Yeah. And it's beautiful. To be a witness to it. So I don't don't need to get in there. I'm enjoying myself. I'll say a few folks that I've told about, you know, going to California Oh, have we said yet where we are do we talked about earlier in my house with the dirty windows that was floating by. So I mentioned a few folks, I was coming out and going to be recording the pocket, which is a conversation I have frequently because people enjoy and they want to know who I'm talking to. And I and I've so far, everyone, everybody that I told that I was going to come out that you were going to be on the podcast, there was there's a there's a reaction of oh, well, there was a there's excitement. And then there's also like, Oh, you're gonna you're gonna sit and talk. And this This hasn't always I'll just say the uncomfortable thing hasn't always been an option to sit and chitchat. And I'll say it's nobody's damn business, anything. I'm just saying that that's a real thing. And I've, I've enjoyed this quite a bit. And we can go there if you want. I'm not saying that it's off the table. But I've, I've, I've enjoyed quite a bit of sitting and chatting with you and hearing from you. Yeah, do a personal work is always always a surprise. It's like, always a surprise. And yeah, there was a period of time where where we would grind a little bit in Ambassador meetings or whatever, and it would be like a little bit of grinding that would go on and add and withdrawing, withdrawing. And you know, when we say these, these things that we do and EPP like we do the work together conversations. You know, what, what all this has brought for me is is that if you have two people that want to work on their differences, whatever that may be, they have to be able to be present to their own reactivity. And for a long time, when it came to you, I was not I was really stubborn. Like, I don't know if you were but I was more like, oh, I can own that. Yeah. Easy. No, put it that way. Let's look, I was just more stubborn. And and so look, I went I had us like sabbatical last year and all these pieces of work that we do you know we think oh gee, I've been doing this work for five years I must know everything about myself and and then you know, we get these like it's like the last seven you know, you get these like chink like a kink in the armor and in the chain and it's like I had like, reach a point where I just needed to take time off. And so I had some appointments with to do some more work with Marian Gilbert. And I really wasn't sure what to expect. I thought that I didn't like do a lot of research on this. It's like I thought she was like a yoga person. And so I'm like, Oh, God, I hope I could do this when I get. So I started working with her. And what she helped me to do was do something that I talk about now. But I never talk about the history, but it was some inner inner work that had to do with embracing my anger. Like, whatever even thought of that, you know, it's like, it's like, when she started talking to me about this, it's like, what we had done some work with myself, but my inner self prior to that, but then when we brought in the anger, we progressed into bringing in the anger. There's something inside me that changed. It was a time that I was able to say to myself that I can have room for my anger to embrace it. And and wait, wait a minute, this isn't so bad, there is room for my anger. And so with that, a whole bunch of projection and reactivity is just kind of melted off my shoulders. And it was in during that time, I was also thinking about you, and not just you, but you know, life and, and relationships and knowing we had the rift and realizing that what I love clay. I've always loved clay. It's like, why, why is this rift even happening? Right? And so it was a lot of being able to see my whole part of it. And saying, there's nothing more important than being able to rekindle the connection. And anger has no place there. or frustration or anxiety about it or whatever. So I was able to just let it go. wasn't about proving a point or who was right or who was wrong or anything like that. It was about healing. For me, and then it was just a lot of things for me changed. But noticeable. And I'll say by the way, for the record, I love you back. I'm glad to be in this work with you. And i i the last six months, maybe since you came back or just sabbatical concluded around October ish. Yeah. So as we talk here, we're in March. So it's, I think the last six months, my interactions, our interactions have been noticeably better. And I think it's a mutual decision that we are on the same team. I'm down. And it ain't always easy. Sometimes I'm an asshole like I'm not easy to deal with sometimes like it, people will know that it's not a surprise to hear that. And I think I almost think it doesn't matter. I think that the number one thing that matters the most in relationship of any kind is that I'm, I'm down to do the work. You're down to do the work, do the work. And sometimes it's bumpy. And it's okay. It's okay. bumps are okay. Oh, good. And I I said this I don't remember where I said this felt like I said it to you, but I'm not sure I was nervous about today. I don't get nervous for podcasts. I'm I've been on record for most of my life. And I was nervous about today. Actually, without even really being able to define it fully. And I think really what it is, is I it's really easy to talk about we do the work together, it's easy to say all the things, you know, and it's for me, it's easy to trick myself into thinking I believe something and so anytime I have to go into a situation where I have to check myself or or test myself to see if I really buy into this. It's nerve racking. I don't like it. And it makes me nervous. So i i care greatly about the work that we do as an organization and also I care greatly about the podcast and what people hear. And I wish we I wish we'd done this sooner. It's appropriate that we did it now. Some snow regret attached to it but I do wish that we had chatted sooner and My definition of crushing it. To steal a phrase that you used earlier is that someone is just willing to show up and put, put in the work and try. And I've experienced so much of that from you in the last six months, that I can't possibly quantify it. That's a big deal. And I appreciate it a lot. And I think I'm better for it. Personally, I think EPP is better for it, just across the board. And it's nice, it's nice to see. It's good to have you. Oh, thank you. I love you both so much. And this might be one of my favorite episodes already. Always work to do. It's always work to do, and it's there for the doing. But it's, it's still an uncommon proposition, people really take it up. And it seems so simple, maybe it seems simple to be listening to the two of you, it's not. Forgiveness is not for the other person. As for ourselves, and something really mysterious seems to happen, and you've been putting your finger on it throughout this conversation to about how something just kind of melts away. If we can just thread the needle and stay present to it, something changes. And it's a guarantee. But it's it's such a hard thing to define because it isn't an effort and get it is a tremendous amount of work is like when we've peeled away the onion enough, like you were able to describe self so precisely with Marianne. Then the anger is okay. And it's really hard to believe that in a in a personality, ego state. For Type One, it's really hard to believe that there's any good that can come of anger, but if you just make room, and she's so expert at helping people to do that. So I love that you. You took the time because it was a choice. You know, you have a lot on your plate a lot going on, and to choose to step away into something that was completely undefined, and fill it with more spaciousness. That's what allowed that to happen. And I know you, you don't mess around. And I knew that when this podcast was going to happen that the shift had already happened. And I'm just glad that we can talk about it here because Who the hell is EPP if we can't do what we say? And we can I agree. This feels like a good place to all say stop. I'll say pause because we'll we'll do this again sometime. If y'all are down. I want to give y'all each. It's always weird to say the last word when it's two people, but another moment to share whatever and there's still no limit on time. But I think we're coming to the conclusion. And before that, I want to say thanks. Thanks, Susan for opening up your house aka the podcast. Unofficial EPP podcast studio. It's frosted window palace. Yeah, yeah. And yeah, that is funny. Maybe it is frosted. Maybe it's not dirty. But thanks for letting me come out and stay and, and just be here and record this. I appreciate it. And it's fun. And and Sue, thank you. Thanks for being down. And I think the the words that you shared here, the stories that you've shared, are going to shine a light on some things that folks didn't know that they even had an issue with, in a good way. And I know there's a lot of people who listen, but to me the number one listener is my mom, just because that's how I'm wired. And I'm really excited for my mom to hear this. So the first episode of the new season, I think she's gonna love it. And I think everybody else is gonna love it. I'm glad you glad you shared yourself with us today. I appreciate it. So first, Susan, I would like to ask, Zoom anything you'd like to share? I have dozens of hours of recording space so there's no rush. But I'm going to mute my mic and that same Adjust here. We have a new video that we recorded of all the ambassadors congratulating people who are finishing the class. And we ask them, just imagine, remember what it was like for you, when the class finished that very first time, those first eight weeks or 12 weeks, whatever you took? And can you speak some words into that moment for our students who are sitting there on the inside. And we've recorded that. And this past weekend, I got to watch that video in the class that I was co guiding with Sue. And there are so many cool things that happen in that class. First of all, just to be in that space with you soon, I could go anywhere for any length of time. We love each other so much. And it were very, very easy together. I feel like we back clean up for each other in different spaces. And it was just, it was just delightful. And on that video. I think it's you clay who says graduation is not completion. Just because you graduate doesn't mean you're all done with the work. Mike, what if only and and Vic says on that, you know, when you get out is harder. And I'm sure describing what you were just describing about sitting in in Chowchilla. Like what could be harder. But actually, the work is aptly named. It's very, very hard to let go of knowing or being right, or all these egoic stances that we have. And and that's what we ask and and that's what we congratulate people for signing up for really like just the beginning of the next thing. And it was momentous to be in that class. Because we we both signed our names on a certificate for other people who I mean, I signed so many certificates for you our class. And, and we just been coming off of this last moment, I just want to include this because it's so it's so much a milestone for EPP that the Friday before I got to come into the class that Sue is CO guiding with Jennifer and Judge Lee, who was the judge who sentenced Sue sentence you came in. And she brought that letter that you'd written to her with her. And she she marked the growth that she saw a long time ago, she marked how she watched you changed when you were inside and and brought the letter that you'd written to her upon your release. And she said how proud of you she was and and she said it not just for you. But for all the students that were watching. And everybody's everybody's watching Sue, thinking, I wonder if I could do that. And she lingered after the class was one guy who was really overcome and he was super tender. And she spent all this extra time with him. And I I just want to I just want people to know who are listening who are up against themselves that there are real exemplars of people who have done this and there's always somebody who's had it harder than you that there's never a better moment than the one that you're aware of to actually take a step closer to yourself. And it's possible. And I feel I feel so honored to be sitting at this table of people who like scooted on up to the to the real real and are doing exactly that. And I just got mad respect for you being first female ambassador, this one first. You couldn't I couldn't even and to stick around all this time. Just how lucky are we? Thank you it has been quite a quite a journey, for sure in quite the last four or five days. You know, having the judge that convicted me. There's something about that judge when she speaks it's not intense intenseness but in a way it is. It's like she's very precise with her words. And and I noticed when I was getting sentenced, my focus was on her mouth. Just because the way she moves her mouth and pronounces her words. Very well thought up thought through, of course, and when she was in the class I was watching her mouth again. And this time, her words, I mean her words. When she, she pulled this letter out of her purse, that I had written her when I got out of prison, and talking about how my plan was to work with EPP and be in service to helping people. And that if I could just help one person, that to help them change their lives, that, you know, that was my purpose in and I started crying. I was I was fine up until that point, but it was her having the letter with her that that really touched me that, you know, she would have that and and so as we do this work, and we try to help other people and help ourselves, it's like, I I have the space right now. And it's like it's just remembering the people that have supported me and helped me on this journey with the EPP and with myself. And it's like, it's, it's a never, it's been like a never ending gift. And it's like, I'm, I'm enjoying this podcast, and being able to be here. And I have this like, burning trust with you clay. That you know, it's like a white your hand, it's like touch me, it's like, I just have like this burning touch of of like, trust. And it's something that I always wanted, and to have it now it's just like another gift. And being with you all weekend and having you on Friday, it's more gifts. And then graduating the classes, just more gifts and listening to the men. When they say they're closing what they what they're taking with them after like the frustrating two days and, and all the distractions. It's like, knowing that they're taking that it's just more gifts. And so in that way, that's the wealth of the that's the wealth. I have a very wealthy person and those gifts and those are the most important to me. So thank you for today. Thank you, Susan. Thank you. For more information about EPP, please visit Enneagram prison project.org We appreciate your time and attention today. Please stay tuned for future episodes of the podcast, which you can expect right here on the first Tuesday of every month as we continue to tell the story of the Enneagram Prison Project.