Eric McCluskey is a longtime friend of Enneagram Prison Project and is also a member of the Board. In this episode, EPP Ambassador Clay Tumey returns to the Bay Area for a conversation with Eric that spans everything from the scaling of EPP to the magnitude of nature. Also in this episode, we are introducing a new segment called Words of Appreciation.
Also in this episode, we pause to share a few Words of Appreciation for Jason White.
Hi, my name is Clay Tumey and I am an ambassador for Enneagram Prison Project. As we approach our 10th anniversary, we thought it'd be fun to sit down and have a chat with all the people who have had a major impact along the way with EPP. In this episode, I traveled again to California and sit down with EPP board member and my friend Eric McCluskeyEric McCluskey:
if I open that those drapes right there. I wonder if that would give because I do feel like I'm Is it distracting that I'm silhouette? It's not either. I know what you look like. Okay, cool. Hey, well, you don't need to. I mean, who really needs to see me? Anyways, it's a podcast. We're just sitting here chatting. So we are we are dressed for a podcast. I are for radio. That's what that's what I told Russ when we did our when we did our That episode was we were in our what we call our podcast clothes. Yeah. Which is I mean, literally, I'm in. I have socks on. I had like sweatpants and a T shirt. Well, this is now the corporate uniform. This is this is COVID dress. This is you know, this is immoral. Yeah. Except everyone has their outfits now that just go from their shoulders. Oh, yeah. I don't have any zoom calls. There's nothing below the waist anymore. Not. That's right. You You don't know what's going on down there. You probably don't want to know you probably don't want to know probably don't need to know. It's it is a waste. It's a waste up world. Well, thanks for sitting down with me today. Oh my gosh, yeah. I'm looking forward to this and seeing what we all chat about. And, you know, you know, probably know the drill from listening to the podcast, who knows when it starts. But I think a good place is to say who we're talking to today. So who are you and why are you here? Yeah. I'm Eric McCluskey. I would say in the EPP con context. I've been a board member for next to Susan the longest of the current board. I joined about 2016. But I would say before that I'm just I'm, you know, I gotta be one of EPP biggest admirers and, and have, you know, had a chance to really, you know, maybe have a unique view of it in that. If you look at the board, or most of the community, I'm, you know, I tend to be less than the day to day. And so let's say I've had many years, but maybe more looking from 35,000 feet. Gotcha. What? What got you involved? Man, I know, I know that you knew the Olympics prior to EPP. And there's some personal connections at that point, like go way back. Yeah. So how do you know them? All the way up until even EPP like, what why is this? Why are you interested? Why do you care? Yeah. You know, it started. I mean, like you said, I knew Rick and Susan, mostly through our kids. And I think I met both of them at a circus party they were having at their house. And and I didn't know either of them. And they had this great event where all the kids did all these, you know, it was it was kind of I wouldn't be surprised if Rick had a big part of setting it up, understand what's the annual event of theirs. But the first person I remember meeting with Susan, and that first meeting, probably a lot like a lot of first meetings with Susan. You know, a lot of people who say hello, and tell them your name. And it's just like, you know, you're an inch to a foot deep and with her like, hello, and looked me in the eye and said, I've been meaning to meet you. And it was like 100 miles deep. I've never had an intro that has stood out to me like that intro and you know, and I hear and I've just binged all these podcasts. And I think, you know, most people in this community who knows, Susan might know what I'm talking about. So there was that initial meeting, like wow, there's, there's something here, there's a quality there, there's a connectedness there that I I can't remember experiencing much in my, in my life, and especially on a first meeting. And then you know, and, and Rick, I got to know a little bit better because he was the assistant basketball coach for my for my daughter. And, you know, Susan talks about Rick is fun, dad. Well, Rick was also like, fun, coach, and, and so I remember my daughter, she was the youngest one on the team at a tournament and Rick was the one that she couldn't go to, like the team dance. And so Rick was the one setting up, you know, buying ice cream and setting up games and having all these alternative things for her to do. So she would have a great time while the older members of the team, you know, went out there. So, in a way before I even knew about EPP it's like, wow, these are two quality people that are just just special, you know. Yeah. And then I just, you know, we kind of we would, we would cross paths. I did a few kind of Susan would have Enneagram kind of sessions in their home, not this one, but the one before in Los Altos. And I, you know, and I got to be part of some of those and really see what an amazing kind of Enneagram teacher she was. But, you know, we were at a, an event at the school that just had this holiday event, and I happen to run into Rick consumers. And I just started talking to Rick and Rick just started talking a little bit more about it was when he was just thinking about getting out of his his old career and really going full time into EPP. Yeah. Any any talk more about what I do. And what I do is, I've been really in finance for startup software companies for close to the last 30 years. And so that's a lot of like, sitting with entrepreneurs and CEOs, and figuring out how to take a company with 100 people and turn it into a company with 1000 people or 10,000 people and grow from 15 million in revenue to a billion in revenue and, and a lot of, and he was like, wow, that's a background. You know, we're trying to grow this thing. At that time, you know, depends on how you define EPP. But I would say it was definitely less than 10 people in some ways, you'd say less than five. Yeah. So at first, I was like, Eric, could you, you know, could we can I just pick your brain. And so we just started to have these regular meetings at a pizza in Los Altos. We kind of had our table, it was it's a really, it's a fairly, you know, busy pizza. And a lot of you say, Silicon Valley type meetings there. But somehow, when we would meet there, it seemed like, our table was always there. And I'm sure that table is still there, and the discussions about what EPP would look like when we were five, you know, six, seven people, depending on how you define it. And where we, where we sit now. That's how it started. And so we we would meet there fairly frequently. And then about a year after doing that, and talking through the model, and how would this thing grow? And how would the finances work? Rick said, listen, we've been looking for another board, you know, board member, and we'd really like, you know, we'd really like you to come in and do that. So that's a lot. There's a lot there. Yeah. And I think I think we're my curiosity first goes, as you talk about being in and, you know, software related business for some 30, you know, odd years, which is a you were there at the beginning of it like you, you know, a thing or two. Yeah. About that world. And scaling from, you know, from a few paraphrase when you said, but if from a few million to from the millions to the billion. That's right. I don't think I knew that you you were around those. You were in those earliest conversations about scaling, about scaling up and correct me, by the way, please, if I'm using the wrong terminology. Yeah. Yeah, I didn't know. I didn't know. I don't even remember when we met. I know where we met. But I don't remember what year that was. So it all kind of goes together. Yeah. A lot of times for me. I think there was an ambassador, dinner get together in Ohio. Well, I think even before that, were you at the ambassador. It was like it. This was the original place. They were going to have the village and it was kind of a I think it was a seminary. And oh, yes. With Mario Gilbert, I think was there and there was a few other people. Yeah. And it was kind of like, what do you know, what was the first time ago? Well, that was the day. I think that was the same day. I talked to Rick that day. And they were like, listen, we're having this event. You should come tonight, you know, and there's so many stories like that. But so we were meeting the ambassadors that night. Yeah, yeah. Yeah, that's the first time we are at least in the same room together. So and then we literally shared a room. That's right. And Cincinnati, we'll get to that later. Okay. I want to I want to, I want to know about the earliest conversations about how to scale how to go from a few people to how do we do this all over the world? Yeah. And I just from just a structural standpoint, or nuts and bolts perspective, or however you want to phrase that, like, what did that look like to the to the to the person who might not know a whole lot about that? Or even they do know about it, and just maybe want to hear about EPP s progress along the way. Like how did how did it go from a few people at a pizzeria to now what it is today, which is quite a few. Yeah, a few people that literally all over the world. Yeah. And I'll start by saying it did not follow the path that we, you know, we sell Rick and I were sharing Google Sheets. That's that's what we were doing. And we were literally and at the time, you know, we had there was, you know, there were the there was Elmwood and, and San Mateo and just the startings of, of San Quentin is your local jails by the way. Yeah. And but the model was much more Elmwood after the original, you know, let's pro bono start this to prove it out. They started you know, basically paying for the program and the same with San Mateo. So at that time, that was it, the model was much more program revenue was coming in. And San Quentin was more the exception, like, Oh, and here's a place that as we hopefully are able to create enough capital, we'll be able to afford to do things like San Quentin. And so at that time, that the huge question, I don't think there was any question, the demand is going to be there. Because if you talk to anyone, you know, if you talk to Neela, met at Elmwood, or any of the places we were, you know, had the program, the the feedback was such that, you know, prisons and jails are going to want this. We that was not the problem was not like, how do we sign up enough prisons and jails to do this? It was at the time, there was Susan, there was Susanne Dion. And then there was kind of a part time, you know, at the time teacher now guide, and that was it. And that was it. So as how and I've heard this come up in other podcasts, how do we create another Susan? Yeah, I mean, and so it was it was a problem. It was a concern? Yeah. Because, you know, and there's never going to be a Susan. Right. But someone who could have the same, you know, that I it truly as a diamond, because it's some combination of knowledge of the anagram and the kind of presence and openness. And there's just a, you know, well, it's the qualities we see in our guides now. But at that time, it's like, how do we do this? You know? And do you go to do go to professional coaching organizations and then teach them the anagram? Or do you go to the anagram community, and then teach them more of those other skills. And we didn't know, what we didn't know is that, that at least that time that was going to be the tall pole that was going to be kind of our speed limit that was going to be what's in the gas tank? How many guides can we have? That will then allow us to say yes, to more and more, you know, prisons and jails. So then basically, it was just a matter of having the supply to meet the demand. In a way, that's what we thought that, you know, at the time, and and I've ended up not being true later. Well, I think there has been a shift. And I think part of that has been due to COVID. But it's also because if I play it out, and I to me, and we will put in it's like, Rick, you know, what do you think? Could we get to five at all calm guides now, but it was teachers at the time we get to five guides next year? And then could we get to 10, the year after? And then 15, the year after? It sounds so small, doesn't it? But then it seemed like cuz think about it to us? Can we create 15 Susans in three years, you know, and you know, some of the scenarios might have had more than that. It's like, then, you know, and then there would be well on, you know, what percent of their time will be, you know, revenue generating, versus we'll have to fund them. And then what does that mean for him how much we'll have to raise and how big our fundraising has to be. But to me, there's no more significant event then. I I started to hear about Dana. And, and to me, and even though there were a few other kind of guides in the picture before then, Dana was the first that like, can we create someone like a Susan or who can play that same role? And, and even before I met her, Dana was like, a hero. Yeah, it was like, it was like, the perfect word, I think. Yeah, truly, she is and, and it's like, okay, if there's, if maybe there's only one season, but if there's one, Susan and one, Dana then there, there, there have to be more, you know, because, you know, it didn't take us 10 years it you know, somehow this beam that we have out there is gonna attract these people and the diamonds will come to us. And then and then that just started to alright, this thing that we thought was really going to be you know, create our speed limit. Yeah. Started started to shift we start to get momentum there. Thing Dana was was one of the first people to indirectly teach me because it wasn't her intention to do this same directly to teach me that it that it doesn't have to be Susan copy and pasted it a million times. Right that Susan is who she is, and there's not going to be another. And oh, by the way, there's also not going to be another Dana Yeah. And now years down the road. I can also say there's not going to be another Suzanne or another Phil or another, you know, you can fill in the blank with a lot of these names. And it's it's something that I've kind of said as a joke and also almost have to apologize in advance for saying but I'm so relieved that it's not on all on Susan's shoulders don't be the teacher and that and it couldn't have been there the scale that we're seeing now, if that had been the path, you know, what no work went over. This would have looked very different. And that the thing I would say there is no That's the key. And to me what Susan models more than a conductor, you know, and she even said it in her. She's like this organic conductor. And there's this rough piece of music in the class, but it's not really it's not like a Beethoven score. It's but but, you know, it's more like jazz musicians, and they're just playing off each other. She just, she just knows how to just need a little help there. Yes, keep you'll keep you on. But and you're doing the physical motions of a conductor, that what they do with the symphony, as you say that, and but I think what what she models is why, you know, aside from I mean, all diamonds, Suzanne, Phil, Dana, you know, if I started listing, you know, all down the list, incredible diamonds, unique skill sets, how perfect for the anagram that celebrates these nine types, or 27 types or every permutation that you can do out there. But there are different ways to be conductors. But the thing is, you're conducting and the jazz musicians are, you know, that's always going to be different every time. You know, so why not a bunch of different conductors who are just all have their own way of letting the organic thing happen? Yeah. And that's what that's what, that's where the magic? It's magic against, I guess. So you being a big being a person who's familiar with business and scaling and all that stuff, it makes sense to, to know, that piece of your background, and also to know that you were friends with elastics. before all that, before, all that being your work with EPP. Does it matter to you that this is an organization? I mean, does the work that we do matter? Is it or is it just like another? Or not just another but is it? Is it a? It's a puzzle to help solve? Or do you care beyond the scaling conversation? Yeah. Yes, they don't worry so much. Even just personally, I just, you know, I would say in a lot of ways, you know, this has been the hardest five years of my life, just with a whole bunch of things that have been happening in my life. And I often say, and I'm, like I said, I'm one of the least day to day involved with EPP but without the model of what EPP teaches and what they've tapped into. I don't, you know, I just I might have a completely different perspective on on what's been happening in my life. And instead, I, you know, I can stay really positive, I think I'm a really positive person, I, I'm lucky enough that there's a lot of darkness, but I, you know, and we share a type and they call it the observer. I I observe way more beauty than I do darkness. And, and EPP is one of the things that that allows that to happen. I think it's, you know, it's a sense, it's it's such important work. I, you know, I often feel and I've said this to Susan, from time to time that this Enneagram Prison Project, it's, it's a great name, but it's also it's it under sells it, you know, and it's like, and the way I used to put it is I used to say, what's not in there, Susan is the, but we've struck gold or like, or an oil well, and it's like, and it's what the people on the inside have to tell us. And, and I started to think rather than gold, it's more like it's pearls because a pearl gets, you know, you've got this hard shell of a oyster. And, to me, that's the kind of the hard personality have a hard life and, but what that allows, you know, but the grist of whatever sand goes in there creates this pearl and it's like, so that, that hard exterior in that hard life creates this treasure, you know, and you know, if you think of it as a pearl that's hidden inside that, you know, that exterior of a personality, and somehow, who would have thought you go on the inside, and it's a treasure chest, and it's an and that's what we're feeling right now is this extends to, you know, the way we're able to leverage what we found to not just on the inside. And I've always thought like this, you know, this shouldn't just be, you know, happening in jails and prisons. You know, it's, I can't think of a place where it's not needed, you know?Clay Tumey:
Yeah. So.Eric McCluskey:
So it's an absolute treasure. It's and it's, you know, you can look around right now and see a lot of darkness, but you know, it I mean, it's this is like, I don't know of many beacons like this one. And you mentioned that we share a type and that is called the observer. And for for the for the listener who might not know I'm a Type Five, and you're saying that you too. Yeah, are Type Five. And I also try not to say anything about the person I'm speaking with without their permission, but that's what you're saying. thing Oh, yeah, so we both share a tie, we can go into any of that. Yeah. So and you made a comment that I think is worth digging into, as they say, or going a little deeper as I say, double click and double click this one. And and you said that you could you can see, you can see darkness, or you can see beauty and you choose to see beauty. And how is it? Is it? Is it a choice? Is it something that you can decide to simply do? And if so, how for someone like me who, you know, might struggle with that? Yeah. And if we share certain personality type characteristics, what advice would you have someone who might even say no, it's actually not a choice. I can't choose to see beauty. I'm only in the darkness. It's all I see. Yeah. But I, I mean, even before we started here, and it's almost not a choice. I can't help but see the beauty, I guess the choices to try and always access that. And I think everyone has their list of things where I'd almost call it. Yeah, but and so you could say, Wow, just look at the headlines even the last week and the darkness. And but it's Yeah, but and whatever that is for you. I don't you know, it could be Beethoven. It could be Seinfeld it could be you know, Lhasa Greta femme familia by Gaudi in Barcelona. It could be foosball. It could be the best joke you've ever heard. But it's like, yeah, but you know, and, and the way I think about it is, I don't know that there's a lot of darkness. But I always think of darkness is kind of finite. It's like, even if you take what happened recently in, you know, in the Ukraine, and it's, that's, it's all been done before. It's a script, this is dark script, but it's like, I don't know, it seems like everything dark has kind of been done, and it's just being repeated, but the light just seems infinite. To me. It's, it's, it's limitless, because it's you know, it's, there's no limit on what's going to come next. That's this new, you know, feat of imagination of humans and including you know, EPP and watching this. How three or four people have exploded into what this is and what it's what is going to become. So whatever those things are, for me, that so much of it is nature, so much of it is I don't know, there's a period there when things were really hard. And I had some time to myself, and I would just I went to about 40 national parks and monuments in a period of three years. And I had the ability to do that. Now in every one I just go walk through the canyons or, or the mountains or, and just just number one, it takes all these problems that seems so big. And you just know, this, this mound doesn't carry out the stream doesn't care. Yeah, yeah, it's big. But this just keeps going. And then. And then the other thing is, for four years before COVID hit, I commuted to Utah. So I would get up every Monday morning at 3am. I'm out to Utah. And in terms of your career, my career by the job I was working for the company was based in Utah, they still are still work for them. But I would, you know, I would get up in the Bay Area, I would catch the 6am flight from San Jose to Salt Lake City, like every Monday morning, and so that if you think about that flight, you're getting into your plane, you're watching the sunrise of the Sierras, because you're hitting the Sierras right around 637 The sun's coming up. But the thing you know, it's you're looking down at the Earth from 30 to 35,000 feet, and you're seeing mountains and you're seeing canyons and you're seeing and you realize, like, in a way these are, these are the scars of the Earth, the things that we find so beautiful are where like the plates are coming together and creating this mountain range, or you're going over the Colorado and that's where this endless flow of water and ice and you know, have created this canyon and and you kind of go wow, you know, destruction and that might have been dark at the time or the the erosion but it's creating the beauty. So like destruction and creation, or it's the same thing. You know, they're they're synonyms in some ways, right? Because by very definition, you know, something hard is happening and something's changing, but something new is being created. So something's being destroyed and created. And so it's almost like that. I those are the things I try and reference. It's like the, you know, the lessons of the earth and the that, that yeah, changes coming, you know, yeah, do not dig in. But there's it's rare that I can't find a way to find, you know, what they call the silver lining somebody to look at it that's like, wow, what so what's coming so this is a really hard time, in my experience really hard times lead to some, you know, there's something around the corner, that could be really good if you if you choose to, you know, be open to those things that are coming. I don't know if that was helpful or I can't. It's funny as you're saying, I'm sitting here thinking I can't wait to be able to rewind this Oh, Over and over and over and hear everything that you just said cuz there's a lot there's a lot a lot there's a lot there's that. That's one thing that's fine mind is like there is if you find a way to open you know that little crack look out. So um, I feel like it's flowing a little bit. So yeah, and I'm not here to get in the way of it, by the way. And so I love I'll say the one phrase from all that that just struck me the the hardest was the mountain doesn't care. No, it doesn't know. And this in the streams and all the other things that you that you've seen it all. There's this, you know, another one of my favorite places played ago. One thing about California is yeah, you have the base trees in the world and those giant sequoia sitting there in the Sierras, you've got the tallest the redwoods up in the, but then you also have the oldest you have this ancient bristle cone Grove, it's in the White Mountains. It's almost to Nevada. And you know, these trees are the oldest one is called Methuselah. And it's 5000 years old. Five, you know, so before, like the pyramids 5000 year old living thing that has been that living thing. And you know, and how did they find that? They were doing like climate, my understanding. It's called a shaman Grove. And I think Shaman was a scientist, and they were doing climate studies, and they wanted to see what the climate was, like 2000 years ago. And so they dig into these trees. And they count rings and like, oh, my gosh, this is 5000 years, you know, but So how do these trees live that long? You know, that they're on the hardest? You know? It's not hospitable territory, right? So what it means is that to make it through every year, they have these extra tight rains that, okay, it's a tough life. There's not much water, there's not much it's a tough life. It's a tough life. And that's how they're able to live that long. Right? So you can and but what what do you get out of that same thing with the Perl, they can tell us things no other tree can tell you now this tree that's living right next to a stream in a beautiful, you know, it's got these big growth rings, and then the parasites can get in or whatever disease, nothing can touch these trees. They're absolutely beautiful. And they have these stories to tell. And that's that's another way I think about EPP and what we struck in, you know, so I guess I'm getting to the beauty is everywhere. You know, it's just it's it's just paradise. Yeah. And it's, it's actually when you say that or other reminder there at the end that the beauty is everywhere. I just I just realized that in the last, you know, probably eight or nine minutes. I haven't thought anything about darkness. And I've only thought about all the beauty and wonder of the things that you've been describing. So perhaps there is something there to be said about choices. I mean, it's almost like I don't know, they say maybe the gift of the five is clarity. I know after doing 57 years of observing the clarity that's coming to me is there's a lot of yeah, there's a lot of darkness. But man Yeah, and we haven't even you know, you can spend your whole lifetime you won't you won't touch it all right. Hey, it's Clay. And I know we're only about halfway through this month's episode, so please stick around for the rest of the conversation with my friend Eric McCluskey. But first, I'm pausing here to let you know that today we are introducing a new feature to the EPP podcast called words of appreciation. Before I share with you this month's words of appreciation, I want to take a few minutes and explain exactly what it was that inspired this new segment. A few weeks ago, I was text messaging with my mom who has started making her way into the Enneagram community over the last year and more specifically into some of VPPs programming. And for those of you who might not know that involves quite a bit of technological integration because most of EPP is programming is done over zoom. So while talking to my mom about her new techy setup, she randomly made a comment about one of our mini Tech Wizards, Jason white, completely unsolicited, my mom suddenly shared with me the following. She said, By the way, Jason is the kindest, most tolerant person. Now my first thought was, Yeah, no shit. I know, Jason. And this has been my experience and basically everyone else's experience. So welcome to the club. But of course, I kept that to myself and continued reading the rest of my mom's text message where she detailed a particular tech issue that she was having and how willing Jason was to help. She said to me, she said, yeah, when I got back on, he was so cool about it. He told me what to do if it happened again, and he acted as if it were no big deal. The more I read my mom's text message about her experience with Jason, the more I realized just how much I'd take people like that for granted. People who had such a wonderful value to this world without expecting anything in return. So for our Our friend Jason white, whose main role among many with EPP is support. We would like to support you with words of appreciation that have been collected from the many people that you serve in Enneagram Prison Project. These are listed in alphabetical order and amazing will be listed twice. Once with the A's. And once with the F's, I think you can do the math. Let's get started. Amazing, brilliant, caring, clear eyed, collected, compassionate, competent, conscientious, considerate, dedicated, deep, dependable, diligent, driven, earnest. Friendly, fucking amazing. Funny, generous, gentle, graceful, gracious, grounded, hardworking, helpful, honest, humble, idealistic, insightful. Integrity, kind, love, loving, organized, patient, powerful, pure, respectful, servant, sincere, smart, striving, strong, supportive, techie, thoughtful, trustworthy, and willing. And I'll tell you actually, that when I started messaging people, so many people said the same three words patient, kind, competent. So many said those three words, that I actually had to start saying, Hey, can you give me three different words because we're getting the same, same three words over and over because of just how patient, kind and competent Jason is with the people that he's helping. And although I did only ask for three words, I do want to share with you an entire paragraph that was shared with me by one of our EPP guides, and this is what they said. When Jason smiles he lights up the room with his tenderness, his insight, his compassion. His humility can be zen like at times, which is an inspiration to me. And he's one of the most knowledgeable people I know, on a wide variety of topics, while successfully ensuring that someone else seems to be the smartest person in the room, and a few more words that they shared were unrestrained, honest, giving without condition or consideration. And I think that this particular guide, mentioned something at the end that sums the whole thing up perfectly. But all the words that you could use to describe Jason, if you could only use one word, that word would be love. Returning now to the conversation with EPP board member eric McCluskey I really wish I could just mute my mic and listen. or So I'm curious about how you came? How did you decide or realize or whatever word we want to say there. That with the Enneagram that that you resonate most with Type Five. There's a lot of people who I'm learning or listening to this podcast are fairly new to the Enneagram world. So they're a lot of times going through that experience very recently, or even in the process process now. So if you if you're up for sharing, what was that like for you learning what a Type Five was? Or did you think you were another type first? What was that process like for you? It was really different for me. I might have even been introduced the anagram before Susan. I was in college and undergrad freshman year. And my group of friends and my girlfriend at the time, they were really into the anagram and I was I knew nothing about but they would just all go Oh, you're such a Type Five, you're Type Five, you're such a type. I didn't even really know what it meant. They would you know, and they would talk about their types. And I didn't really double click at that time. But I was just like, Okay, whenever someone and it didn't come up very much, because that would have been mid 80s. Right. So it was still software even. Yeah, exactly. So there was you know, there wasn't as much of a forum for it to really, you know, go where it has now. But But, but whenever it came up, Oh, I understand. I'm a Type Five. I don't really know what that means. But you know, so when I was reintroduced, which was as a parent and I think there was before Susan, there's another local teacher who was I think there was some kind of parenting content to her Enneagram but she she would bring in the concept and talk about the types and and it was the first time I really got to know all nine and hear that description. And honestly at first I was yeah, I could see the Type Five but I also resonated so much with four and there was a time that I was really Am I a four with a five or a five with a four wing and and just living in it and seeing panels and then doing panels to me was really weird. Now I'm a five and I never did a four panel but I would watch the four Panel and I would relate to so much, but my core where I go, you know, where I retreat to the way I, you know, it was five. So it's almost like I had it, you know, thrust upon me, but then it was confirmed much later. Gotcha. So for just, I'm imagining that there's somebody who might be kicking around those same thoughts with themselves right now and wondering, and by the way, I experienced a lot of the same with the four and a five because I, too, am a five without winning. Yeah. And learning about the four, I think it was a struggle for me to really understand a lot of it, but I did connect with certain pieces of it. And, and with me, what ended up being the case was that yes, I'm definitely very clearly a five. And then I also, in addition to that, really, really experience a lot of things that force experience just not quite to the same degrees, therefore, I think it's very similar. With a four wing. What are some of those things? Like, I mean, what, like, you know, for me, I think it's, it's so I don't know, I don't know enough about four to say what all those things are. Yeah, the way that I do about five, and for me with a five, I love to understand how things work. I like to know the answer. And it's less about identity, and being unique. And a lot of the other things that I think are perhaps even unfair stereotypes of the four, so I don't want to speak to that, but that's what it was like, for me, do you remember any of those things for yourself? Yeah, and, and I would even guess, it's not just that I like to understand it's, I almost have to, if my, you know, if, like, if I haven't figured something out, then you're not going to get my because I and daily use this term once and stuck with me, it's the body five, it's the Okay, I haven't had a chance to synthesize yet. And I have a whole new set of inputs. And, and I'm muddy, you know, and so, so it's almost survival, I need the clarity, just so I can turn this this thing off, that's turning in my head, which I'm trying to, you know, usually I describe it as trying to get to synthesis, trying to end what I tend to do is get to a model, I try to, I mean, I, you know, heard some metaphors here metaphors. Tomato is just one super helpful model to me, because it just simplifies it's, you know, it's like, you know, out of all this stuff, 90% of it isn't that important. There's the 10% that I really need to put together. And the rest is the noise part, you know, and yeah, to me, a metaphor tends to do that. On the on the four side. It is it's what you mentioned, it's all that. And it relates to the five, but it's this. Lots of contradictions, like, I really want to be invisible. Because it's much easier to observe when they're invisible, right. But I really want to be seen, yeah. And I don't want to be praised. And I get very uncomfortable. But I but I do, I want to be acknowledged and and so this like, you know, I want and and here's the other way, I think about the four I think of the five is like this, this idea factory or this, you know, this just and to me, it's I've said it before, it's not, I want knowledge, I want understanding. But then once I have that understanding, I think of the four is like my paintbrush, then I want to present it in a way that's going to be unique, that's going to stand out that I never want to describe something the same way twice, like in my job a lot. I end up explaining financial concepts to groups, sometimes finance people, new finance people, sometimes sales heads, some you know, people who know nothing about finance, they say I know nothing about finance, teach me. And every time I do that, I never go back and say, I'm just going to use this set of slides that I use 10 years ago, even though that was really effective. Yeah, I was I was really a copy and paste guy. And so it's why like I see a Robin and, and he's so visual and how he puts stuff together to just hit you between the eyes. And I find myself doing the same thing. It's funny, I find myself using a lot of the same kind of symbols and metaphors that that Robin uses in the you know, and we were at a board off site I was talking about Wow, it really feels like THP the new place that we're going is the seeds that you know are are being spread out. And you know, Susan just kind of goes Yeah, well, Robin just came up with the dandelion with the seeds and it's kind of like our logo for you know, and there have been more and more so it's it's fun and exciting and a challenge and also I think it always makes it new to use that for paintbrush to like find a creative way to take all these ideas that I'm excited about and then find a great way to really share them with other people. How important is it to you? And I'm struggling the moment I don't I've I feel like I'm doing better Now, I'm not curious how important it is, how important is it to you, when you're in that solving phase, figuring it out that going from the muddy? to the, to the clear, how important is it? Why can I not say the word important, but what the hell is wrong with my mouth? Right? How important is it for you to be by yourself rather than to have a partner in that? Or is it at all? It's really important, yet, there's a there's a but I, I have my whole life, it's like, I need to think means I need to be alone, you know, I need the space. Even, I can't even do it with and I love music, I listen to music all the time. But if it's music, with lyrics, you know, if it's music, if it's classical, or whatever, okay, good. But I find myself following you know, it's, I need all the headspace to go work this problem. That said, and it's why I, you know, I've heard Russ talk about this, and even you and there are things in the moment, that interaction with another human, you just go to places you never would, if it's just you just as because it's, there's a way your mind works, but then someone else's just throws a wrench in and you just, you'll probably go down a path, you never would have gone down. And so many times, like I travel a lot. And same thing, it's like, it's the mistakes that lead to or the or the random, you know, things that where you get lost or and and you end up learning this new thing that you if you just been able to follow your instincts you just never would have got there. So, though, I acknowledge that, you know, the bulk of the work happens within an um, you know, pointing out my skull here. That external input, I always call that it's almost like it hyperspace is you to like, a whole new area that you never would have got to so I know, doing a panel, I learned more about myself on a panel sometimes just because of the external influence and someone making an observation that just, it's grist for the mill, you know, and that's how the real work happens. Does that make sense? Totally. And I relate to it 100%, I prefer I think, I think at a at a glance, I prefer to be by myself, it's more fun to me, it is and it's actually probably less accurate to say it's more fun. And it may be more accurate to say that it's, it's less dangerous to be by myself. And I feel that I don't have to worry about judgment from others, I don't have to all the things that I make up in my brain, I don't have to worry about any of those. Because I'm just just me, myself and I, one of the things I struggled with as a musician was to do work and creatively with other people, because I just didn't, I didn't exist well, with didn't play well with others. And in addition to that, and in a completely contradictory way. I absolutely love the interaction like this, or even there you do riding with Rick in the car earlier, we're coming up the hill, to the house here. And we're talking. And it's my favorite thing in the world. And then he wants me to hear a song. And I and I want to hear I want to hear it to the trick. Exactly. And by the way, with Rick, you're not going to hear a song. No, you're not. We listened to like five hours of dread Zeplin when we went down to Carlsbad Caverns, so it'll be it'll be first here's a here's a one of my favorite stories. This is totally off off the rails. But there are no rails. We are the rails. So he was like, I gotta hear this. We're talking about airbags and car crashes and stuff like that, or something to do with that. And it's like, I gotta hear this podcast I heard. So he looks it up. We're 15 minutes into the podcast, and I don't understand why he's letting me hear it. And I finally I'm just like, dude, this. This doesn't sound like oh, yeah, this is the wrong podcast, but it was just finished listening to the noise. Like dude, like, so it's a podcast. It's a song. It's it's awesome. It's all the stuff I think you might know. But you know, Rick and I have a standing you know, it's been a while now. 7am we call it Pizza Hut and we kept it going it's our virtual Pete's coffee. So every Thursday 7am A trick and I for an hour and that is the most fun random like there's this right it that could be its own podcast is the places we go and one of my favorite rides at Disneyland was Mr. Toad wild ride and it's that's what that ride was like, you just had no idea and it was like the quick jerk this way and that way. Yeah. And, and, and the thing about rake, you know this, you go down a path, he's gonna know something about this. There's no path you can go down where he's not gonna know something about it. You know? Anyway, it's actually kind of scary. I also have to remember. I think I have a couple like when we were driving in one of the Suburbans in Ohio, and it's you and Rick in the front seat and I'm in the back seat. And I videoed a couple of just the banter between the two of you. I got to find that out just just to take you back there because I was like, because I was literally like, the two of you are like I come married couple Yeah, I bet yeah, especially if we got to talking about there's no talent. He's I feel like in a lot of ways he's, he's, he's a brother with me and we do that. But in that's the thing like we we were coming up the hill talking and I enjoy this and we were actually probably, I don't even know what we were talking about giving each other hell about something who knows. And then the song pops up. And and I go I go, you know in this in we listen to the songs good song like Rick, when you hear this I'm not like on your song, so don't take it that way. But I, in talking about how I prefer to be alone and left to myself, my favorite place actually is a place where I'm engaging with another person and the safest place that requires the least amount of energy, blah, blah, blah, all that is me being by myself. And but what I'm truly the happiest? Is this what we're doing right now. Yeah. And I think the key word you said there, and to me, it's the key to EPP before the Enneagram before it's safe. It's the safety. It's the what do you described about if I'm in a group of people, and I entered bandmates, and I don't know what they're gonna be doing. You don't feel safe, and you and same. And to me almost a way as a five that I find. I I'm hardly ever bored. Like if I have time alone, it's I crave it because then I can go finish working through the things that haven't worked through. And you know, and I've always got a list and the only time I can think of that I'm bored is spending time with someone who's not present or genuinely there who's small talk would be because to me, that's okay. You're I want to be polite. So I'm you're taking the cycles of my ability to process I need to borrow some of that I don't have because my bank was small talk is fuck this out. I don't care. And I know people like that too. And I'm very, you know, it's like, yes, but that, but that's even a safety there it is. And it's like, and it's and that to me is I've never been in a group like EPP. Like when we had the the IEA in Oakland, and we had to get together at Blue Bottle at the many hands, you know. And usually, there's no more terrifying place for me than to walk into a big, you know, room with 200 people. And literally, there are times I'll just I'll walk halfway in and turn around just say I need to go walk around the block and I'm just not ready. That just doesn't happen here. I could be and to me it's it's it's the President's I just don't have small talk with people in this community. It's you know, it's and, and so same thing. I hear there's an EPP event. I'm, I'm excited. I'm like, Okay, there's you know, I this is this is like can be the grist for the mill and just giving people hugs and one amazing kind of accumulation of people but then in a place that's safe, you know, I've created this environment where when you feel safe, and I feel like so if you go EPP and safe as the core, there's part of me that keeps thinking I was thinking about before we got together is, is it true that when people are safe, love just happened, it's unstrained almost feel like, it might not even be just humans, I see. Animals and when, you know, when they're not safe, they're no loving place. But I almost feel like you see a dog or a you know, and but when they feel safe, the love starts to happen. And I agree. And I think it's the same thing with people. It's if you can get them to safety, there's just so much fear. If you can feel safe, good things happen. And you know, that's what EPP is amazing at creating safe a feeling of safety. Yeah, and not just out here. Either that I mean, hearing all that. I mean, granted, COVID times are different than hopefully one day. And here's a phrase you won't hear very often in very, very many places. Hopefully, one day we're able to get back into the prisons and jails and do what we do. Yeah. And I think that's, I think it's coming. It's just a matter of when you get back to the pearl bow. But you know, inside before by the way I have Yeah, you know, less than 10 But yeah, I first went in and helmet and I did a five panel so that was my intro and so that's where I got to learn. There wasn't your first time in prison in jail was to go and answer questions in front of people that other inmates that you don't know. That's right. And that had to be I was out there with you know, three other fives I think and Susan and and it was about 50 guys in the striped you know, I think the striped uniform there and and I just I just I didn't I felt so safe. I felt it well. Just going in alone is the trust factor with with Susan but i Everyone I met the the depth was closer to that first meeting with Susan than with if I went to like a cocktail party of Silicon Valley. You know, it was when you say everyone you met you're talking about the inmates. There's time. Yeah. Yeah. And just walking in and just feeling completely. There was a there was an early ambassador, he's not an ambassador anymore. But it could have been Chad or but one of the first events I went to those EPP, he talked about something. The way he put it is, everyone comes to the class, we sit in a circle. And he said, Then the angels come in the room and enter the room. I think he said, and that's kind of what and I'm not a religious person or but there is an AI. It's almost like some combination of the Susan factor but and also because the anagram is, it's uniquely about being human. So it's almost like, well, we're all humans here. So we all have this way that we're all equally human. So there's no hierarchy here. And, and it's this paradigm in this place that we can be safe. And to me, that was the angel. He was feeling that we can all just, and then when we're present, we can be vulnerable. And when people are vulnerable. What you learn is that people don't go oh, my gosh, you know, you should be ashamed. Yeah, they it? No, it's like they find that thing in themselves. Oh, my gosh, you've let me feel okay, with this part of me that I was holding back on, I have my armor up against. And magic. You know, the magic I'm talking about? Yeah. And it's funny you say that about the angel. In my book, I actually describe what it was like walking into the room, the first time that I met Susan. And there was there was, and I don't remember verbatim what I wrote in the book. But I know that I wrote about, there was a certain glow. It was like this very angelic being. And that was before anything was even said. And by the way, this is also before EPP was a thing. She was just the Enneagram lady for us. Like that's what we called her the Enneagram. Yeah. And she, there I was, I was it was her second time coming to that prison, or to any person that was the first place on the inside where she taught. I was at the second class. And so there was a group of guys who were in the first class and they just spoke very highly ever. And about the Enneagram in general. And of course, we had wisdom. So I was able to thumb through that a little bit. But I was also at a point where I was super open and just like there to check out whatever but I was, I can totally relate to I think you're talking about Chad. Kristen. It was I think, yeah, I think that's the end. I like his from if I'm remembering correctly, it was a four. I like his description of that with Yeah, with the angel just kind of coming down there because it's what it feels like. It is it's palpable. Yes, yeah. It's not normal, especially on the inside. You don't usually, like people, people think about prison and jail. And it's pretty cold, dark, lonely, like miserable place. And the thing that I usually say is, you know, if you're having a bad day in jail, you know, good luck getting anybody to care cuz everybody's having the worst day of their life. Like nobody cares about you. Yeah. So I, I think it's, it's a trip that that that experience can happen on the inside, where you feel safe, and you feel like, this is an okay place to be? Well, not the sense I have, and I've gone in probably a lot less than definitely everyone on the board. And you know, is the reason it happens. And you tell me if this might be true is because you talked about when you got out, like the littlest thing, like I want some gum. I want to take a shower with you know, barefoot, barefoot barefoot. But if you if you extend that and I go to Vic saying the first thing that got me was Susan said, What do you think Victor? Choose my name, you know? Yeah. So, to me, it's, you know, Rick and I, one of the things we've been talking about our Thursday is Joni Mitchell a lot because he's one of Brooks's very, very she's one of Brooks's favorite performers. And he's been playing a lot on on his show. But you know, she has this song you know, Big Yellow Taxi and it's you don't know what you've got till it's gone. And beyond gum and you know, showers and bare feet and important things. But what if you get to art Vic Your name is trying to get to which we take being human for granted. And a lot of ways, the way we live and I and the sense I get when I go inside is let us slap you across the face. What a gift that is that you take for granted, you know that the choices you can make, but also the what it means to be human what it means to have a name that someone's you know, this and that is part of this pearl. It's like that we're all it's, it's the magic. It's like you're coming in and you're treating us you're reminding us of our humanity and you're kind of giving it back and when we're in this room, it's restored and we're all equal humans and but then everyone that walks away because everyone I know involved with this. They say I'm getting more out of it than I put in And I think I've had a lot of, you know, inmates say I just don't believe I don't understand. But it's that's not Heiberg hyperbole that is so true, because it's this this reminder. Man, there's so much I take for granted that I am i Do you know, you said the air smells different when you come out or you know, it's like, the grass feels different on your feet. It does. It does. And and the other thing I loved was Dustin talking about, man, I had so much stuff I got back. And isn't it I know we have. We don't need all this. You know, if you live very simply, my I love to go up in the Sierras and take a backpack and just stay alone by a lake for five days. Yeah, and I have a mini that experience. You talked about how fast people drive when you get out. You know, after a year, yeah. Even after four days of sitting by a lake and it's just me and the marmots and I come out and that but that's it. And I haven't even been talking to anyone and all I've been hearing is the birds. Everything seems loud and fast. And but it you know, do you have to go all the way back to all this, you know, you know, so there's so many lessons like it's, it's okay, you take it all away. And then when you come back out, you learn what's really important. And that and that's that's a gift. It's not you know, that's that's what we need to learn. That's what we need to be reminded of. Yeah. I love the idea of being secluded like that in the Sierras, like you said for that many days. And then driving feels different after dusty days. Yeah. And it's funny how fast 40 miles an hour feels. Like if you go long enough. Miles and highway 395. And it's like people's zoom. They're they're going whatever to Mammoth. And yeah, it looks different. And it's the same speed as when he drove in five days ago. Yeah. It just feels different because of the reference points have changed. Yep. Or they went away completely. Yeah, I suppose. I mentioned earlier, Ohio. And that would get back to it. As I'll say that one of my favorite memories, not just with you as a friend, but also just in general with EPP as an ambassador. We were in Cincinnati. There was I believe in IEA conference was there. Yeah, we were all at the White House. They're in Cincinnati and or the Cincinnati area, and there isn't enough. There's enough space at their house for quite a few people to series. And quite a few people and horses and people, horses, you name it. They we were all there. And you and I shared the loft. Yeah. And I slept, I think on an air mattress on the floor. And then you slept on the bed in the loft. This is one of many rooms where people were sleeping was like, it's a small bedroom type room. And and I didn't. We had met prepping for that but didn't like No, we didn't know each other super well. And my thinking generally is I've done time with I've shared cells with people that I didn't know, 30 seconds ago. I'm cool with it. I mostly, I mostly feel concerned for the other person. Like I don't know, I don't always know how people will like, talk. Like, I don't know how to say this. Right. But like, Well, it'd be weird for them. Like, well, they think that I don't have anything worth, you know, just small like and knowing that you're a five because I knew that then yeah. And no, like small talk is like sacrilegious to me. As far as so I don't know. I remember thinking like, I don't remember a lot of small talk. We talked and then it was so funny. And this was this. This is one of these things I told Vic and then that like advice. I think Eric's done some time because with the way the funniest thing about that was we talked for a little bit. And it wasn't small talk, but it was like we were talking for a while. And then at some point I was like alright, well I'm gonna go sleep. And then that was it. Lights out, lights out, go to sleep. And that is how it is on the inside with with soulmates a lot of times, it's just like, I'm done. And now it's time to end it was so funny how how seamlessly it just went from conversation to there was no like, ending small talk like okay, well. All right. Well, I hope you get some good now that it was just like, Alright, I'm done. Yeah. All right. Cool. I don't and I wish I could remember what we talked about. I think there was a lot about kids. If I remember right. Here's, here's what I'll say I had one anxiety and that is I've been told I snore this house. I just don't want to I just want to keep them up. That's really all that I was concerned about. They told me that so so the fact that you said grind I grind my da There you go. So the fact that you slept I was all good after the first night. It's like okay, I'm not going to be keeping them up. I'm good. The only time I've ever been woken up by somebody who snores I had a Sally and when I was in the Feds for a little bit, and he snored so loud. And you will this will sound like exaggeration, but I promise you it's literal. Back to just the mic now he snored so loud. I could feel the vibrations in my bunk. And I was like, He's dying like it was so and he was like a small dude. That's the that's the weird part. He was a tiny dude. Snore and like he like he was like he was fighting for his life. It sounds like maybe got a free massage like he used to put the quarter Yeah, exactly. No He got woken up actually. So I said, this is the beauty man. That's the point. But no I sleep I don't the snort noises and stuff like that. I don't I don't think that I ever slept light, lightly. But even after prison, especially I don't really struggle with that, but I'm the same, except I grind my teeth. And I probably snore, too. Now, I don't know, I don't, I don't ever. I don't have anybody to copy or, you know, roommate again, and instead will happen that you're gonna say Sally's there. First thing I thought of it, but that wouldn't quite work. But do you remember what I call that room after we came back now? Like, it's it was the observation tower? Man, we were really, you know, the two observers? Yeah. Well, that's because it is it's on the third, third level is the third or second half? Yeah, I don't know. Their house is really, really like creative how it's up and down. But this is at the top level. Yeah. And then there's also like, there's the doors that open up. And then there's also this big window thingy over here. Yeah, observation tower. That's what I got. Yeah, that's like what they have in prisons to go there. Yeah, I forget, I'm drawing a total blank on what we what we would call those to not the watchtower, but something like close to that. I enjoy talking to you, man, I think you're I think you're super interesting. And I don't want to leave without, without covering anything that that I've left off or anything that is worth talking about? Are there any questions that I didn't ask that you want to answer? Not I mean, not that I can think of what I just say is, you know, and I talked about this, this concept of Yeah, but man, you can just go down the list of appreciation for you know, what's created? First, what's, what's Susan and Rick, it's not just I mean, you know, I know, like, they're the, what they could choose with what they're, you know, what they're worth in the marketplace, and the, you know, the job, it's not just, Well, what is Rick making now, it's what you know, and or Susan, it's like, the life that they could have in the second and third homes and the, you know, all these things that as we sit here, looking out at Silicon Valley, a lot of people opt for, you know, the thing that gives me hope, and, you know, I am, you know, five, you know, I'm a fear type, you know, I, I, part of me not jumping in here is, you know, not having the bravery to make that full jump and just say, Yeah, I'm gonna go do what Rick did, you know, I'm gonna go do what Susan did, and then go down the list of everyone here who has said, this is so important that I'll, you know, I'll let go of a lot of these things, a lot of the more material, you know, options that I could take that I'm choosing not to, and if I started listing, I, you know, I wouldn't get there. But you know, you just talked about the whites and what they've brought here and, and the me hands and the and, and the ambassadors and the whole, the whole community here is just so inspiring. And, and I appreciate them so much, and I just everyone listening, those who've already had on these podcasts, those who are coming, I can already think of it, you know, yeah, who is it going to be, by the way, I'm going to ask you that in a minute who we should have on in future episodes, but go ahead, continue out your Okay. Um, I just gratitude just as a, as a board member, and as a as an as a huge fan. And as you know, someone always looking for hope and beauty. The examples here are, you know, I can't, I can't sit here and list them all, there are so many. And it's, and it's only getting bigger, and what an amazing thing to be part of. I generally give at the end of every episode, on an uninterrupted, just, you have the floor to say whatever you'd like. And you've probably touched on a lot of what you would have said right there, I'm still going to give you that space in a moment. But before that, I am curious, who would you like to hear on the podcast? Well, one that pops in my head is Halida. Because, you know, what she has done with our, we talked about the shift of, you know, what we thought this, this model was going to look like versus what it is and now how much giving and, and I just you know, she's and she's even though she's not a board member, she's in pretty much every every board meeting and and it's just such a huge part of what we do, you know, and if you just want to see the beautiful power of an eight, you know, and at their best, just like, you know, I met Halida I was you know, one of the things I really wanted to do I've always wanted to do is go to the top of Mount Whitney, which is the highest peak in the Sierras. And I was training for that. And I took a spill down a smaller mountain here and I sprained my ankle. And I was here for a board meeting and Halida was the first one I'd never met her. She's like here put all you know, I'm not a small guy. You're putting all your weight on me. I'll help you walk out to our board meeting that we had out on the hill out there. You know, that's a leader you know, so that but I mean You know, so many I mean, the list is probably 150 long, and I probably haven't met half of them. You know, we've grown so much saying there, there are quite a few people and even that I that I haven't met, I will say that Halida has has given me a yes. Okay. And it's just a matter of scheduling. And, and I, but I did I messaged her recently and was like, Hey, slow you down to be on the podcast? And she said, yeah. So when, when the schedules work out, and and I hope it will be soon, because I think very highly of Halida as well. And I think that she's just, she's just worth hearing from. So hopefully, hopefully that'll be soon. Hopefully that'll be next episode. Who knows? I didn't even know that. Yeah, I can't speak for her. I just I'm just I'm just I'm just saying out loud. What I hope for Yep, it'll happen. But I Yeah, man, this was a lot of fun. And you can see the timer here. This probably didn't feel like we've been sitting here that now it doesn't know time flies. I told you the Damn, man. Be careful. If you see crack don't well, this is not I mean, we're not limited to just this. I mean, we if you're down to come back on another time we can. We can keep going. I mean, I really Yeah. You know, I think you have a lot to share. And I think you're you're one of those people who you have that quality, like kind of rust us where when you start talking? It's like, I just want to listen, like I don't I feel that with Russ every time any chance I get. Yeah, yeah, I feel that with you. I feel that with you, too. So. And that's, I mean, it's almost like you said, you know how to wrap up here. It's, I keep thinking like, you know, they talk about types, you know, or your head type or body type. I don't know, part of me thinks in some ways aren't all humans, a heart type, specially in this community. And then just that, that other type we talked about is just how you protect that heart, you know, and, and so some people protect their heart without heart and some use their head to protect their heart. No, maybe, yeah, unless you you know, and some, it's their body. But I, you know, I just want to say, and I just, I feel that so much from you, when you do these, you know, it's as a head type, I just feel your heart, I just feel your interest in people. And to me, it's, you know, something I used to write in a journal, it's, you know, I have elemental words. And to me, elemental words are ones that are hard for me to just, you know, define because they're, they're elemental. So, and one of those used to be love, and, but I think it was, um, Byron Katie said, you know, someone asked her, How do you define love? And she had a one word answer, she said, was connection, you know, and I, and I, I, you know, and I binge listen to these over the last week, because I was behind, I had heard a couple and so, you know, I feel like I have done that, you know, that Netflix binge on? Yeah, on the clay podcast, but I'm just feeling this, you know, this connection, this, you know, and the things you light up at at, you know, I just feel the heart. And I feel it right here. And it's, you know, I think it's part of why I think people are just enjoying these so much. So, thank you for doing this. Well, thank you. I appreciate it. It's, it's, it's one of my favorite things to do. And I don't, I don't know how it's turned into this regular thing that I get to do and get to get to talk to people, but I absolutely love and everyone else I've told about who's listening. They're like, Oh, this guy, he needs to keep doing it. So people that don't know you, but you know, they want to talk some of them too. I mean, we might just open it up and start just talking to whoever we bring in. Let's do foosball. And you know, you know, we'll do though, don't get me with a good time. People hear this. We've mentioned Foosball a couple times. Yeah. For those who don't know, I'm in the competitive foosball, aka table soccer. That's some people but we call it foosball. And I love it. So I'm down. I'm always down to talk with interesting people about things that I care about, you certainly fall into that category. Thanks again, I'm still going to leave you with the last word even though we've already you've already kind of ran out a couple last words, you want to get the last word, this is just how we roll. I'm not gonna say anything after this. And first, before that, I again want to say thank you. I think you're so interesting and fascinating to just listen to. And I appreciate you and thanks for thanks for sitting and chatting with me today. And however much time from this point forward do you want the floor is yours? Alright. Well, I'll just say thank you clay, and I'll just say, yeah, the beauty is out there is you know, it's just so many in this community see it, but But it's always out there. And thanks. For more information about EPP, please visit Enneagram prison project.org We appreciate your time and attention today. Stay tuned for future episodes, which you can expect on the 12th of every month as we continue to tell the story of Enneagram prisonUnknown: