Episode 12: Not a Supposed-to-be-agram

Hi, my name is Clay Tumey and I am an ambassador for Enneagram Prison Project. As we approach our 10th anniversary, we thought it'd be fun to sit down and have a chat with all the people who've had a major impact along the way with EPP. In today's episode, I traveled to California and sit down for a chat with EPP Guide program manager and my friend, Laura Hooper.

I'm fighting the urge to say introduce yo Nam sale. So we are in California. I'm in California. I mean, we both are. I just I'm not used to this. I was telling you this earlier. I'm used to getting like a day or two in advance to just like chill out, set all my stuff up. And today, I don't have that luxury because flights were canceled. And travel plans were not perfect. But we're here. And it's all good. And we just got here. We're at the Olympics. And I landed at the airport today. And we just set up the stuff. And now we're going to chat. So if you're down to do that, I'm down that is an introduction. Who are you? Who am I talking to you today? Anything that you feel is relevant? And leave out all the things that you may not feel irrelevant? And maybe they'll come up later? Who the hell knows? Who are you? I am Laura. I am Laura Hooper. I'm relevant. So funny because I have always had this thing in my stomach. That's like, don't just go with what you do for a living like, I don't want to just be my job kind of thing. And then here I am with a job I love so much more than job. So I will just go to that. Okay. Yeah, I love the project have been around, I don't know, I guess three and a half, four years, something like that. Just intended to volunteer. met Rick and Susan fell in love. That's pretty much the story. So how did you meet Rick and Susan, what was the what were the circumstances around that? Yeah, I was. I was in a coaching program. New Ventures West. I know we've talked about them a little bit. Others have also gone through the program. And towards the end, you go through a year of pretty intense training. And then at the end, you have to do a weekend where you actually coach a live, you know, a live person you coach live on a live live. So you know, it's kind of intense. But Susan happened to be she was a guest. She was just kind of sitting on a panel listening. And I guess someone had mentioned she was coming. And I of course me being me. I'm like researching. And I realized, Oh, she's doing this cool thing with prisons. That's really interesting. And I really liked the website. And I remember thinking, Oh, that's cool. She'll be there. And I listened to a podcast with her and the founder of that school. And I'd always been around prisons a little bit because my dad had worked at state prison where I grew up. And he was a barber instructor. So I had met quite a few folks that had been incarcerated, even from a young age up, and I had gone inside with him. And so I was like, this is really cool. And it was right around the time when I was really diving into my own development and also supporting it within the organization. I was in like workforce development. Anyways, long story short, I said hi to Susan. Love what you're up to keep up the good work. And then that very weekend, I started emailing and I was like, I would love to just volunteer. Like, what can I do? Nobody responded. I waited a week or two. I emailed again, no one responded. I think I did it four times, maybe. And the final super rare. Those days, by the way. Well, the last time I emailed was like, I think something might be wrong with your website. And I meant it. It wasn't through the forum on the website. Correct? Gotcha. Yeah. So um, she reached out and she's like, we just had a nice phone conversation. And where I live is very close to the jail that we happen to program in the most. And she said, you want to come check it out? I said sure. And, and then once I started to do that, I was very interested in kind of the backend of things. And so she said, why don't you come to the house and see what Rick does, like, you know, and see if there's something that clicks for you where you want to get involved. And so I came down and spent a day with him. And I remember because she came home later in the day, and I got a feel for Wow, he's going a lot of different directions. But this is super interesting. And when she came home, the three of us walked out for anyone that's been here, beautiful property and you can kind of walk out to the point and just have this gorgeous view. And now we got the sound of music vibe when they're in the mountains. Yes, or whatever that the hillside weather is probably. Yeah, that's what it looks like out there, especially now that it's all been cleared out. It's It's pretty beautiful. It's really beautiful. Yeah. And the three of us just stood out there and talked. And again, my intention was just, let's, let me see how I can support you let me volunteer. I've got some space in my life for that. And I don't know, we just got in this beautiful conversation about love about loving people loving ourselves. And it just felt like, I don't know where this is gonna go. But hey, I'm here. How can I support and not too long after that it was like, Are you? Do you want to come join us? And like, I think I can't say no is what it felt like. So yeah, I ended up big career shift and came this direction. So you said your dad, did I hear it correctly that you said he was a barber instructor? He was yeah, like teaching people how to cut hair. Yep, yep. Inside of maximum security prison in Pennsylvania. Camphill. Prison. Yeah, right near Harrisburg. He did that for several years. But yeah, he would have a handful of guys in his program inside and most of them by the time they would get out would get their barber license. And a lot of them would get out and then contact him and you know, just thank you so much. They called him hoop because my last name super. I remember that's a cool name. It is yeah. One guy had a really cool barber pole tattoo and right at the bottom and there's some shears and some other barbers done for him it like the inside of your forearm as nobody else can see that. But like palm up inside of your forum. There's a the entire length of the form was a barber pole. Yep. And it just honestly, I just said thanks, hoop. Because it was pretty damn cool. Yeah, it was really cool. And it's a good name. At least it wasn't like a rough name to have to put on a tattoo. But yeah, so and we'll hold spend too long talking about your dad. But this is fascinating to me, at least. And I would assume interesting to somebody listening. How do you go from being? Was he a barber before that? Or did he have was it like he was a barber first? And so then he went into prison after that? Or was he in the prison world and learned how to be a barber? So what was he was? So he went to? He went to a school. A lot of people call it an orphanage, but it wasn't really it was for kids for military families. So he went to a boarding school, oftentimes low income, which he definitely fell into there. And oh, geez. So we got all the time in the world. My Computer, trust me, we're good on space. So so he didn't intend to be a barber. I don't know what he actually at one point went to the military, but he cut his toes off with a lawn mower, okay. And so that, of course, threw a kink into everything. And he kind of realized even in school, like I need to learn a trade, I need to do something. And they offered a barbering program. So he got his barber license. And that's kind of where it started. And then he actually at one point, went back to that school and taught barbering there, yeah. And then eventually, that job shifted, and their barber instructor jobs for the state prison system, and he thought I could do this. So he must have heard hope this is okay to say, he must have heard every joke possible about cutting with lawn mowers and then transitioning into cutting with scissors. Because as somebody like I have, I have a history that people make jokes about, and they try to make creative jokes, and it's never new. I've heard every bank robber joke you can think of for the last 15 years. So you got to really come strong with your comedy game. For me to like, even think it's mildly entertaining. Much less like funny. So I don't know why. But for some reason, I just it's a it's an interesting like to go from. That's a traumatic experience. Like I'm not making fun of like running your toes over with the lawnmower. But I would be nervous to go into cutting that close to my fingers as a career path after doing after having that. Is this the thing that people are not I've never, I've just me put it together. I mean, he was really young when he cut his toes off. So I think he was I want to say 14 ish. Yeah, obviously, way before I came along. But I never put the two together like Yeah, well, great. I feel great about myself now. I'm fine. All right, sweet. Well, let's not talk about that. Have you? Have you heard any good bank robber jokes? Like, has there ever been one that you're like, Oh, that's a little that was good. No, there are so people will say things, nothing comes to mind to answer the question. So there have been I do recall moments of telling people that's what I was like, that's new, at least, you know, for the most part, I don't think any of them ever of them are funny because a Um, I just don't think is that funny of a topic, but be like, I'm a I'm a I'm a comedy nerd. So I love stand up comedy. I have like a very high bar, you know, for what I think is funny anyways. And generally speaking, I don't think most people are funny, which is like, sad, because I like to laugh too. But I don't think like the average throat just growled and not happy with that statement. I guess. The the. I think that's funny, but I don't know. Maybe not. I mean, it's funny. I looked at the cat actually, this is the most disappointed looking cat that I've ever seen in my life. Recently, like, this shit is not funny. Please move on. So okay, how will I, I just, I think the topic is, it's really hard to make the topic of crime funny to me. And there have been moments where, like, for example, when I was locked up, we played Monopoly a lot. We had board games, you know, chess, monopoly, dominoes, Scrabble, all these games. And one of the units that I was at, we played Monopoly frequently. And guess who never got to be the banker? Like literally never. And it was a that was funny, like the way that they went about it, because it wasn't like, oh, I don't know, you might steal the money. It wasn't anything lame like that. It was just a very simple Oh, hell, no, no, you came to me to buy or something like that. So like, to me, that's funny. But in terms of just like, like, people don't always have like, a very new way of saying something that I've already heard a million times. So I'm, I'm open to the attempt, like it doesn't offend me at all. But I usually just have to tell people like, yeah, you gotta, you gotta try a little, you know, harder than that. Because when your material a little bit hurt, everything is like people who've hurt like, if somebody is like, super tall, or super short, or has something, like if, you know, like, their eyes are different colors or whatever, like they've been here and shit their whole life. So it's like, what are the chances you're gonna say something that's brand new. So it has to be like, super creative. So anyways, I that. That's hilarious, and also said that I'm, I thought I was saying something. It's the opposite. Now for me. I thought I was saying something that maybe everybody said, but now it's something that you've never heard about or thought about what the toes and then and then gone to switching from lawnmower blades to scissors. So oh, well, well, that's fun. How do we transition? Who knows let's or as I like to say, speaking of non sequitur, and then just go straight into something that has nothing to do with that. But so I am curious, though, you so a lot of people have an their first experience with incarceration is later like in their adult life. It's not as, like it's a trip to think that you're that you went in, as you say, No, I didn't go, I had to be 18 to go in. Okay, so I actually went in for a sports banquet. They allow the incarcerated guys to invite staff members, it was by choice, like it wasn't every staff member to come. And then staff members were allowed to bring a family member to. So that's actually how I went in. I was I think I was probably freshly 18, or right around there. So I was thinking that's, that's a bit of a relief, because the way that my ears heard that a minute ago was that you went in as like maybe like a teenager like early teens. That makes sense that you had to be 18. So what what was it like? Typically when I talk to people, and we'll get to the your guide, now, later, you're not just a volunteer helping with stuff on the back end, and all that other stuff? We'll get to that. But typically, I like to ask like, what was your first experience like, because oftentimes, EPP was their, their endpoint. Their first time inside was they went with us. Not the case with you, though. So you said it was a sports banquet? What the hell, I think is the only question. I can I can ask there. And what was that like for you? Um, well. So the part that I did have before I was 18 was different folks had gotten out and I had met even as a young kid, like I had met people that had been incarcerated knew my dad while they were incarcerated. And either because he also had his own barber shop in the town I grew up in. So like, men might stop by because they knew where he was or look him up. And so of course, he would introduce me and for my sister's and it was always very there was just always a comfort there. Like I could feel my dad's trust in folks. And there were Stand Up Guys that had worked really hard to get out of prison and, you know, have a barber license have something that they could do in the world. So there was that comfort piece. But then when I went in, I mean, my dad was so like, I remember when I was getting ready to go and he's checking in on my nerves. He's like, Are you ready for this? Like, you'll go in this skate you'll, you'll show your ID here. So he had really walked me through exactly what it would be like. And he was my dad and like, yes, he he only had four toes, but to me and he was actually like, a little shorter than me. But to me, he's like the, the, you know, he was like the strongest man in the world, even at that age 18. So like, I actually felt quite safe walking in there. And he was, you know, a pretty well respected staff member. So, and he wasn't, I mean, he was teaching a trade and he was supporting talk. So it was it was I could feel that respect even at that age. So going in, I wasn't, I was actually really calm. I remember sitting there ever the like dreamer idealist definitely part of part of who I am. Yeah, you haven't said what your type is. And you don't have to yet you don't want to I'm just saying, we will get there, I suppose. But I remember sitting there and they made food. And they were really excited because it was I think it was like a fish fry kind of thing. And that was like a treat. And so and they kept coming and like, Do you want more? And but I remember very prisoner. No, it was not like it. It was prison. It was maximum security. But I remembered in my head, I was actually thinking, what if you could, I thought I wanted to be a chef at that time. And so I was really thinking, what if you could bring like a high end culinary program inside like, wow. So that's actually where I spent a lot of my energy even being in that experience. So it's kind of a weird. Yeah, but I wasn't. I remember the one of the first times I went in with Susan, she made a comment to me, she said, Why are you so comfortable here in jail? And I guess that's why because even though I hadn't been in many times, it was it was part of my life. And my dad would talk about it, right? Like he would talk about things that happened at work. And it was pretty normalized for me because I was somewhat around it. So when you when you were around that at an earlier age, was there a time where that part of your life or whatever had kind of stopped like he maybe he had stopped working around the prison or whatever? Or had you like, consistently been involved in prison work until you met Susan? No, I hadn't been involved in prison work at all. It wasn't even on my radar as something I wanted to do. I actually, out of my undergrad went right into working for the federal government and spent 14 years there and honestly assumed I would be there my entire career. Because a lot of times that's what you do if you get a good government job. So out about that you send that I knew that and I totally forgot. What can you say what Yeah, I mean, I worked for Defense Logistics Agency. So it's basically like the, probably the simplest ways, it's the, it's like the Amazon for all the different branches of the military. Like it's the logistics arm and get supplies where they need to go and all of that. So like guns and bullets and more repair parts. And like body bags, and like we're if there's a disaster, we're often like, DLA is often the one to ship like body bags right away. And, but it can be nuts and bolts for major weapon systems, but yet lots of repair parts. So it's kind of a happy coincidence that by the time you met Susan, and then EPP was on your radar, you had already had, what sounds I don't want to put words in your mouth. But it sounds to me like you had a fairly favorable experience with prison before all that anyway. So it's, I would think it would be easier going in or like Susan said, when you're like, why you're so comfortable here, or whatever, because maybe you never got that, that thing that a lot of us get where inmates are just demonized. Or, you know, I mean, they're ex cons or, you know, offenders or whatever the, you know, sterilized where it is for him. But like people are often just scared based solely on the fact that they're wearing a uniform inside of a building that they're not allowed to leave. And I don't know, maybe you just never had to look at them that way or that. I was just like, like people are. I think that's a big part of it. I don't I think that's just what the environment I was in in the way my dad spoke. And my dad had health problems and there were on more than one instance he had passed out at work and the men there saved his life. Yeah, so I That's a true yeah. So for me, it was especially his clerk who was a lifer. He, the way my dad spoke of him, I always just like had so much respect for him. And he always had an eye on my dad, especially from a health standpoint. So I guess I just never Yeah, it just wasn't. I wasn't exposed to like the the real extreme othering in that setting. So I guess I'm really fortunate in that way because I didn't have to like an undo that I wasn't programmed or invited into that. Yeah. So when you it's we, you know, I like to point out words that we use and how most of us know what these words are but somebody maybe they don't. And when you say alive You're talking about somebody who's not getting out. Yeah. And they're there forever, period. And this is a person in the free world that did something. So I'm not going to put an adjective with it that they did something that somebody decided they needed to be gone forever. And here, they have a favorable, favorable. I don't know, character or something to that effect with somebody who's like, very importantly, that's kind of bizarre to hear, frankly, even as somebody like, myself, who's been, I've been around a lot of guys who's done some crazy stuff. And it's not fair to say crazy. People have done some pretty severe things. And I've had strong, positive opinions of them. Because I know a different side of them. And it's still just kind of bizarre to think about like that. These are people we see in the news. And or even if it's fictional, like in movies and stuff, we're just like, all these crazy monsters, awful people, burn them, send them to hell do whatever, blah, blah, blah. It's kind of it's kind of funky to not think of them that way. I don't know. Or maybe it's not. I mean, I, I guess it is. But I'm so glad I do. I'm so I mean, my my dad just looked at everybody. Like, I guess that's what instilled in me that I could do something like that. Like, there's, I don't, you know, I don't I'm not like going out thinking I'm going to murder someone. But I've certainly had murderous thoughts. I've certainly been out of control of myself at different times in life. And I think we're all given the right circumstance, very capable. And and then the other side of it is like, how much pain do you have to be in to do that? So yeah, I don't know. I guess I hadn't. I mean, you're making me really think about it. But yeah, I I guess it makes this this what we're up to inside the project. It made it a very natural thing for me to be part of because I didn't have I didn't have some of the hurdles that I think maybe are like, I don't know if normal is the right word, but oftentimes there. Yeah. When did you when did you quit your job with the well, I'm assuming you quit? I did. I try to assume as little as possible, and to not say anything that the other person Yeah. Introduced just because I don't have to feel bad about you know, saying some somebody didn't want to be said, but when did you? When did you come on full time? I suppose I came. Yeah, I think officially I came on in, like March 2009. Teen I think so hard to put tires on anything with COVID? Like, oh, yeah, I think it was it was either 2018 or 2019. I might be a little bit. So I started 19 Yeah, you do a lot more now than you did in the first days, when you first came on to help. And you in you mentioned volunteering and stuff like that early on, and seeing how things were done. And you saw the sound of music Hill and all that other stuff. But you know, the point of the the podcast is to tell the story of EPP and the people who've had a major impact along the way, obviously, you're one of those people and so you you do a lot more now, like, even just today, like I saw the, you know, like you had a call about this thing to you know, with people in the project, and then also know that you're a guy you do. You do. You do a lot of shit. Now, a lot of stuff, okay? Like, it's, it's, you're very involved, and you're very, you're very impactful in what's going on around here. So, here in the future, where you know, things are mostly virtual and stuff like that, you know, or when we can go on the inside, you're still going on the inside, but like what all What all do you do with the project now? Well, part of the reason I do more now than I did in the early days is because EPP does a lot more now than EPP did in the early days. I do. As Arianna says, I'm a Jill of all trades. So I do. I mean, I like to understand kind of what's going on all over the place. I like seeing the big picture and kind of having a feel for all parts of it. So kind of throw in wherever it's needed. I work really closely with Rick, and that's if you know Rick, I mean he's quite humble about it. But wow, he does a lot like he does. Pretty much all the backend stuff. And yes, there are a lot of people now that support that and support him. But there's so much that has to happen to make this thing work and keep moving and grow the way that it is, and really hold all of it. So yeah, I do. I love guiding I love going inside, I love supporting the guides, I love building relationships with the different facilities. And I also like the, like being in front of a spreadsheet and figuring stuff out. I do I like, I like figuring I do a lot of scheduling, whether it's putting the schedule together for public programs or in custody. And it's just, I like putting the puzzle together. And I like getting the input from all the different parties of like, there's got to be a way to make this work. And it's fun. So there was a time when I remember going to Rick and being like, I wish I could just guide full time. I don't want to do all the operation stuff. And he's like, you know, very pleasantly was like, let's see how that plays out. I literally hear him say that. Yeah, I mean, he was very, like, he didn't, you know, let on that, like, no, please. No, I. So then there was a time when I was really like five days a week between public programs and in custody. And I was like, I don't want to, I don't want to guide this much. I actually like the behind the scenes stuff. So it's the, it's a really good mix for me of kind of having an idea of what's going on everywhere, not everywhere, but a lot of places. And I enjoy the I enjoy the mix, I enjoyed the especially since a lot of my work is around releasing some of the pressure to get it right all the time, or just the we don't have to get it right. Like I I'm learning to trust me that I'm always doing my best as I learned that in others. So it's when I can be in that place. It's actually really fun to work, can I jump into support this or to support that and maybe ease some of whatever friction might be there? So yeah, I like that. There's anything like are there any recent examples you can share? Just for nosy people like me, and maybe a listener? Who might just be wondering, like, what exactly goes on? Like, what is she talking about? Um All right. Um, yes. So we're in path to freedom right now, which is about a 16 week course pretty intense. It's our second course after nine prisons one key, it's the it's kind of like the Alright, shits getting real, like, we're gonna jump in here, like, and you're really, it's a beautiful invitation to really go inside. And it's a lot to schedule, all the guides, make sure everything is done, right. And so I forget where I went. But I thought we had the schedule in place. And I thought we were gonna approach it this way. This was a couple months ago, before things kicked off. I was away for like, one day, I think and I come back in fact that he's like, Nope, we're doing it this way. The whole schedule changes. And so when that happens, it's like, you know, we've got to get all those gods in places, we've got to get this program bounced against another program, and in custody stuff. And do we have enough coverage for everything? And it depends on like, is someone apprenticing? Or is someone a seasoned experienced guide who can have an apprentice like there's just all these little pieces, you know, I like trying to catch those pieces. So

when you so I know the numbers, but for, for, for for those who might not when you say like path freedom, and guides and apprentices and matching things up? Like how many what are the numbers behind that? Like how many people you know, participants or students are having how many? How many people are in path to freedom, and how many guys will be, you know, involved? How many cohorts which you didn't mention, but I'll just throw that in here as well. Like, what is that and what is like, You're You're making it sound simple, like small and like, oh, it's like a lot of stuff. But I can do a lot of stuff. Like there's a lot of people and there's different like subgroups. And all that stuff. It's a pretty big puzzle to solve it is I don't want to bore everybody.

It's not boring. It's not boring. I promise you there there. It is not, like super common knowledge like exactly how stuff like this goes down. And I'm a nerd with spreadsheets and stuff too. And I had the joy of of doing a tiny little project with mix and matching like breakout rooms for this. And I love it. And I feel like it would be boring for me to talk about that. But I promise you people, there's an interest in that from people and they want to know, like, what exactly? Like, what is it? You know, I think of my mom and stuff like this because I always I expect that there's someone listening, listening to this, who's just like that close to take it one step further in our direction. And people don't it's they don't, they might not be willing to jump into something that they don't understand. So I don't know I maybe maybe it is. Maybe it feels boring to talk about details like that sometimes But I just trust that there's somebody who is interested in it and people who listen who are already on the inside, you know, are they in the in the internal not inside in terms of prison, but you know what I mean? They, they're there with us anyway. So we're not boring anybody away. But um, if if you're down or if you don't want to mix Okay, yeah. So like, what is what exactly does it look like with in terms of like numbers and peoples and guides and apprentices? And this and that the other? Yeah, well, I'll focus on 9P1NK, because that's the one that's freshest in my head. Because I have this tendency of like, whatever is kind of coming up. Um, that's where I'm focused. And I let the other stuff go for a minute. So I'm prisons one key, correct. So this is EPP is like, intro to the Enneagram? And how how we deliver the Enneagram? And how we invite you to experience it. So I will start with, like, who's available? No, I don't even start there. I start with, alright, when can we offer this on the calendar? When do we have the 10 weeks that it takes to do this? It's really more than that, once you add in an orientation, and you add in a celebration. And then you say, Oh, we want to do a few in French. Okay, so you get off, he's like, Sure, why not. So even to get to that place where you say, these are the 1012 weeks, we can really focus and put on the calendar. Once we get that then I can kind of start to build out but it's a it's a can be a big process because I start with our our like experienced guides are completely certified EPP guides certifies probably not the right word, but EPP guides. And I say these are the weeks here are multiple time slots, let me know what your availability is, how many cohorts would you like to have? And then of course, when they fill that out, I'm kind of looking in meeting with faculty and saying of these folks who can have an apprentice who can't. And then we are an IEA accredited school. So every cohort that we offer has to have at least one IEA accredited professional. So I'm also like, kind of keeping tabs on that. Once I get that information first, then I'm looking at who are we going to be ready to apprentice? And again, that's me going back to faculty and saying like, where are these folks right now, some people are ready immediately after they take guy training program. Other ones, there's some places to work and they're getting ready. And sometimes an apprentice might say, I actually have two weeks where I can't be there. And it's like, not this round next round. So putting all that together, and then really thinking through, do these folks work well as a match. And in EPP the guide and the potential. And really, that's an easy one. Because our goal in EPP is like every guide can work with any guide, because we're doing this work together, you know. But yeah, of course, we mesh with some folks better than others. So there's that, and then, you know, putting all of that together, then we have to actually go out and say, Hey, we have this offering public. And we hope that folks apply, because we have certain numbers that, you know, we don't want to cover three people. And that's not a great experience. And we also don't want to cohort with 50 people in it. So we wait for the application to come in. Once they come in, then we're really looking at how many do we have? Do we have to can we accept everybody? Do we have to cut down a number of cohorts? No, all of those pieces, and then life happens? Someone says family member passed away? Or oh, I didn't know I was gonna have a schedule conflict. And now I have a schedule conflict. So it's can we find subs? Can we, you know, and as I'm saying this, like, there are so many other people Jody? Jason. Yeah, Rick, like supporting pieces of this. Like, we're all kind of doing this together. I don't think one person could do it and be seen.

What's envy saying? That's hilarious. That's funny. So why? So with the cohort? Why not? Three? Why not? 50? What's the big deal? Why is that so important?

Well, the the live sessions in particular, like, you know, you come into this space, and we want you to share, we want you to trust it, we want you to help build a container with us now you to really do some deep work and get to know yourself and get to know each type and fall in love really with each type. And that requires some space. So if you only have three folks, at most, you have three different types, right? Yeah, we do our best when we can we do our best to have one of each type at least one of each type in the cohort. So we want a little bit of variety there. And you know, we use Zoom. So if you have 50 people on the other end of the spectrum, like how many screens Do you have? And if you do a check in with 50 people, that's three hours. Correct. So it's, yeah, and we're just kind of weighing all of that and what's the right number and what feels good. And you know, that's so we try to stay 1518 for nine prisons when Q feels pretty good. And that's coming from participant experiences that's coming from God's experience. So, yeah. Are you limited to how many cohorts you can have? Or is it just back to the scheduling thing of what's the availability of the guides and Yeah, that's definitely the limit is how many guides do we have that meet all those, you know, one IEA accredited, one capable of having an apprentice all of those pieces. But in reality as even in the past year, the amount of growth, it's like I can already kind of see like who these could be like massive offerings like, yeah, maybe the whole world will know the Enneagram. Someday, like think I know, they're like, that's yeah, of course, like, oh, what would it take for that to even be possible? Like, I don't? I don't know. And you haven't? I haven't asked. You haven't said how, what your introduction to the Enneagram? was, I know, you mentioned coaching. And that's where you met Susan. But how? And of course, I found it in prison. How did you even come in contact? How did you cross paths with the Enneagram? And then also, how would it be a global thing? Question, good question. It was when I was in coaching school was my first introduction to Enneagram. At the time, I was trying to start an in house coaching program within the government agency I was in, and I was starting a frenzy trying. And so I needed to get my coach certification to make that happen. And I was already doing Myers Briggs and a couple other different assessments. So I was kind of like in the the neighborhood. And then when I guess you could say I met the Enneagram when I met the Enneagram. I was definitely like, oh, this doesn't feel great. This is I don't, I, I didn't want to know my motivations. I was good with just not needing to know that. Like, tell me just pay me a picture. Like I was actually in a sense, comfortable with just put me in a box, because who cares? I don't have to work with it. Like this was like, oh, no, like, you're gonna work with this. So that was my first introduction and wanted to know that what he didn't need to know the why. No, I didn't want to know the why actually. Why? Good question. Oh, that seems sticky. It turns out it was. Yeah, it shifted everything for me. I mean, I resonate most with Type Seven. At first, I thought I was a Type Two and Type Two didn't feel terrible to me. I was like, Yeah, I get the shame I get. I get that stuff like, of course. And then when I really like, jumped back in and read about Type Seven. It just hit me and I was like, I want to be any type, but Type Seven. Oh, I don't want to be that like. To me, I felt like there was a shallowness that I just couldn't. I didn't want to be that. And I didn't want to. I didn't want to acknowledge that. I couldn't be with tough stuff, because I can be with your tough stuff. It was my tough stuff I couldn't be with. So yeah, that was my I went through that program for a year and we use the Enneagram a bit but not a ton, but right after it. I am someone I went through the program with. She's wonderful. Her name's Robin. She and I took with me the Enneagram and read the entire thing together and met every week and really started just digging in and trying to really understand our type. And that was also when I was really starting to volunteer with EPP and so it just it all reinforced it because then I mean, you know, be around EPP like, gonna talk about the Enneagram kind of what we do. Yeah, it's kind of like being in church and talking about God, it's just, it's gonna happen like, you don't have to just does what so I'm gonna put you on the spot here and ask if you could just like a quick quick 60 to 92nd elevator pitch for what is Type Seven. catching myself right now because I want to even though positive outlook, I want to go to the negative and I'm not going to Type Seven. You is Type Seven, we are about freedom in so many ways. We want the freedom to experience all of it. Life is to be lived and have fun and like the the aliveness of all of it. Like it's just there. And the the tough part is as with all nine types, the thing that we have naturally we end up mimicking and then we end up cutting ourselves off from it. So that very freedom. I was as all type sevens like boxing myself in in a way that I didn't even realize I had the Freedom, like, I want so much freedom that I want all my energy out here, and I want to experience everything. And actually, I'm not experiencing anything really unlike very scratching the surface of a whole bunch of things, and not really being anywhere. And for me, a lot of that is being in the future and planning and not being in this moment. Whatever it is, in this moment, but being able to be with every bit of it. Because that's actually freedom, it doesn't seem like it. It didn't seem like it initially. For me, like that didn't actually feel like freedom. I mimicked it with this. Let me plan the the future. Let me plan the next experience. But that is a trap. And it's not real. It's, it's an illusion of freedom. Thank you. I appreciate that. It's not always fun to answer that question on the spot. No. And I didn't intend it wasn't that I planned for that. But just in the moment, I just kind of I was just curious, I asked Rick about that, on the way up the mountain. Back in October. My mom was here, she was in the car with us. And we were driving up the mountain and I did the same thing to him. Except we weren't recording. So it was easier, probably. But I, I love hearing people talk about that in the moment about their type. And it gives me it gives me a way, like I understand type differently than I think a lot of people do. I struggled to read and just understand my reading. I don't I don't struggle to read, like a mechanical like reading. I don't mean it that way. But I learned in in 6090 120 seconds of you talking I can learn so much more about Type Seven, than I could from reading a book. And I love the fact that the book is there as a reference. But I again, I just I'm constantly thinking about the the new listener who might not have a clue what we're talking about. And I think you explained very well, like what seven is and what we love about Type Seven. I'm also curious, what, what is it about? There's not a panel, so I'm not trying to give off panel vibes or you know, do any of that. It's not, it's not a row. But there are things and this goes for probably, well, not probably this goes for every type things that are like stereotypes, either positive or negative, or maybe even neutral of some sort, if that's possible. What are the things about seven that people believe that you find are not necessarily true, at least for you are most sevens that you know, I suppose you could say that those are stereotypes. But yeah, I don't know. I don't like stereotype because it seems like such a typical word. I think it's a tough, like I think the stereotype of like they're always happy. There's like it's tough, because it's a stereotype because there's some truth to it. Right? So this is the challenge with a stereotype. But the think a lot of times as type sevens, there is the assumption that like, you're good, you're happy. Because I'm probably saying I'm good. I'm happy. I can see where the assumptions come from. But the Oh underneath, like I think I've heard Dana say like, type sevens have more like, and she may have pulled it from somewhere. So I don't want to like leave that little opening there. But type sevens have them most unprocessed shadow work. Basically, there's like the most darkness because I know for me, I've spent the first 33 years thinking I didn't have a shadow, like thinking, I don't do the sadness. I don't like there was really this. The mind is so strong that I had myself believing I didn't have the heavy emotions I chose not to and why would anyone choose to like so I think, how do I say this? I think as as again, with all nine types in different ways. We're so good at the thing that we do that we believe in ourselves, and then people around us believe and so for seven it's you know, it's something that is often not always but often valued and enjoyed. Like it's something that other people can have some kind of fun with like, oh, you know, the light hearted make sure the fun person comes along and and then there's that pressure of I've got to be the fun one. If I show up and I'm like he or just down like Will I be? Am I still a value? Do I get to be a whole person that has this very broad spectrum of me. And that even as I say that It's like, that's scary. Because if I'm not, if I'm not light hearted and happy, like, but you still love me, I still want to be around me. Yeah. I don't know if I answered the question. You did. 100%. And, and then the question that you asked at the end I, by the way, for the record, I think the answer to that is yes. Just so we're clear, I, I really struggled to learn seven, and what it is to be Type Seven and what it is to experience life and that for a long time, because a lot of the a lot of the a lot of the five and seven are kind of different from each other quite a bit. And like we were talking earlier about a girl that I dated, that was seven that our first date was like going shopping, and she hated my wardrobe. Because my wardrobe is very simple. And it's based on comfort is not based on looks, I don't really care. So I thought this would be fun. We go, let's go shopping, and you have X amount of dollars of mine to spend, and buy me a bunch of new clothes. And so I I learned, there's a lot of fun stuff about Type Seven, that I that I early on in the Enneagram experience for me, like some of the some of the stereotypes like you know, scatterbrain bouncing around and full of energy and always laughing and some a lot of stuff that you just talked about like that to me, I pigeon holed the whole type just by saying yeah, like, kick, can you just not be can you not be serious like that was, you know, like early on, and EPP there were two ambassadors and I was the five and there was a seven. And We butted heads a lot. Because I was I never had fun. And he was never serious. And it was it was an issue because of it. And I just I flat didn't understand. Seven for a long time, and still still wrapping my head around some of it to be honest. And people like Rick as helped me a lot. And learning about Type Seven, you of course, I talked with Tara in the last episode, there's a lot of of good things about Type Seven that I'm just barely starting to understand. And I don't I don't know, I wish, five, five and seven have that line that they're connected with. And I don't even know frankly, what that means. I mean, I could pretend I know what I've heard people talk about. And I've, I've heard I've listened to fairy around it and stuff like that. But I don't understand it at the level that I could explain it. Which means for me at least that I don't understand it well enough, shocker. Probably an Einstein quote in there something about you can't explain it to a five year old, you don't know it well enough or whatever. But I'm kind of rambling. I'll just say that. There's a lot of stuff about Type Seven that I didn't frankly, get early on. And I'm finally starting to wrap my head around. And it's almost it's you listen to every episode of the podcast. And I'm fighting like I try. I really don't like to reference previous episodes because I'm afraid I'm going to quote somebody wrong, But they're all really good episodes and go for it.

Well, Tara was talking about a trip. She's talking about you, Rick, and her the three of you were at Esalen and talking about basically about

Being alone together. Yes. And And do you remember that conversation? So remember that conversation? Was your Do you remember it the same as how she describes it on the episode? Like what it was? Yeah, it was it was actually a pretty intense emotional conversation for all three of us in ways and Yeah, cuz she said it she was like, it was like half joking because, but it was like this. The need to be alone and you know, type sevens including me love stimulation. And there's actually fear around not being stimulated for me, I think for most sevens, but I don't want to speak for everybody. And so that was kind of where we were headed was this like knowing we need to go in and hold ourselves and be with us, but kind of the opposite of five right? Like I You're good at being alone. You're very comfortable. God alone status. Yeah, exactly. Not always the case for Type Seven. I need the stimulation from everywhere. And so she just said it like, I think I might have been crying at the time. She might have been crying. I don't know for sure. But yes, it was a very when she said can we just be alone together in this moment? I was like, Yes. I feel so much better. It's not funny. It was very interesting to think about three sevens sitting around in this like super. I don't wanna say dark. I wasn't there. I can't call it that. But it seems like it was kind of like a sad not sad not Honey, I feel like he might be the right word. Right? And so it's, it's, it's what? Like if you said, if you told me Hey, three sevens or, you know, chillin around hot tub, what do you think they're doing? I'm gonna say I don't know, probably, like, first of all, probably, you know important drinks and partying and telling stories and talking about what they should be doing instead of this and what sounds more fun and, and instead, y'all are like boohoo and it up. And it's the opposite of what I would expect for Type Seven to do. It's just, it's exactly what I was trying to say a second ago, like I learned so much about Type Seven, just from sitting with, and hearing stories from type sevens like that, because it's, it's, I would, that's bizarre to me that that's the thing I would expect, like three fours to be sitting around doing that, or maybe even my Type Two be sent around. I wouldn't. But I could say the same to you clay, like I would expect, I wouldn't expect to Type Five like this is where our stories of the type really get us in trouble. I wouldn't expect a Type Five to say, I want to do a podcast, I want to actually have these very deep conversations. You just said I'm God's status of being like alone isolated, right? We know, Type Five has to be that. So why in the hell are you like, let me do a podcast let me have these conversations. Right. But it's, I think that's the I love the Enneagram. And I think that's the challenge is we we stay in this place of your five and that's that. It's like, well wait, like, I've got all of it in me. And as soon as, as soon as I put that story on you, then it's hard for me to accept you to be anything but isolated. And that's not that doesn't feel good for anybody. Like that's not It's not freedom, right? That's kind of what we're all about. And that's the opposite. Yeah. I love that. I really, I think there are and that we could do this, we could go around the entire circle and say every type that we think does this, and in reality, it's something else, and I think actually drives me nuts. When people say that about type fives that in a serious way like, well, you're not you can't be a Type Five years, you're too comfortable talking to people you're too comfortable on stage. You're supposed to be an introvert. And you know, you're supposed to be withdrawn. And you're, you're supposed to be like it's it's not the supposed to be a gram.

That could be the t shirt. Yeah,

there's the t shirt. I don't even think about it. This is not the supposed to be a gram. All right, cool. That actually might be the title of the damn episode. That's that was an accident. That was funny. But but for real. It's like I, I don't know why I get super triggered when people are like genuinely saying, Well, you shouldn't be doing that you're a Type Five. It's like you don't that's not how it works. Like it's not what we do. It's not that's not what the Enneagram is. So I've I'm glad that we agree on that. And I continue to learn even in this conversation a little bit more about Type Seven. So thanks for being willing to just go there and share all that. I want to talk more about your your guide status and what it's like to go on the inside and teach this stuff, as we say to men and women who are incarcerated. And if you have an I'm not asking anything specific. But just even in talking about going on the inside to teach Does anything come up in experiences? Any classes, any penalty do panels on the inside? For pre COVID? I suppose. Yep. And when we're in person, we do panels when we're virtual we it depends on the class, we may try. Or we might use some of the recorded footage. Like we have a Type Five panel with you and Eric. So it depends. But yeah, when we're in person, we do panels, what is it like doing a panel? inside prison and out before you answer I want to ask, have you heard the panel that that Susan did way back in 2010. It was recorded. And I don't know if many people have heard that audio. There was a tiny snippet on one of the episodes of the podcast. I heard that. Yes, I think all that I've heard is just that snippet. And so I wonder I want to hear about your if you remember much about your first experience, because I'm sure you've done several now doing a panel on the inside and if it's any different than doing it on the outside or just really anything you feel like talking about around being a guide and going on the inside and doing stuff. Yeah, I'll start with I love going inside like it is. I love it. It's one of my favorite places to be if not my favorite. I love it. I'm so bummed right now because I'm in the middle of a class and go to prison. Exactly. We're in the middle of a course in Santa Clara County here in California and we're supposed to finish it up after Christmas but it's been COVID So it's kind of rolling lockout lockdowns basically so we might get to come back next week but it's you know, we want to be safe when we go back so But your question about panels Well, I do not fully remember my first panels in custody because I went through grad training program. And the very next day started my apprenticeship. And I was with Susan. And so I just remember being like, oh gosh, I was so happy to be with her. She's an amazing teacher, as we all know. And I was scared, like, so it was actually Scott and I, we apprentice together went through GDP started apprenticeship the next day. I do remember a few students specifically from that class, but I don't remember paneling, because I am 99% certain I was like, in my own way, and probably didn't do a great job cuz I was so worried about not messing up about getting it right. And so my, I suspect I wasn't, I wasn't super present. Also didn't do terrible. Or she would have told me because she is quite honest, gentle, but very, I mean, she, you know, Susan, yes, she being Susan. So, you know, I didn't do anything terrible, but I don't recall those scars, no. Sweat, it's as the more I've done it, the more I'm amazed at how deep people go, when. I mean, that's why we're called guides are not actually they're teaching where they're guiding and where they're really like, really holding space for folks and trusting that whatever supposed to come up will. And as someone who loves to plan that is my edge of, I don't know how any class is going to go ever walk in, I have no idea. But I'm going to be as present as possible. Listening and pulling out whatever makes sense. And also, of course, sensing like, do I push a little harder here, like How comfortable is this person? If I push or, you know, as this is a good spot to you know, so it's like just but being around EPP and you watch people like Susan Dana Susanne fit, like you watch all these amazing folks panel. And you're, for me, like constantly just kind of letting that soak up and like just, I'm watching them all the time and seeing how they are and what it is His presence. And so I keep coming back to like, okay, as Russ says, How much presence can I tolerate, and the more I can tolerate the The deeper the panels go, the deeper the folks that are willing to sit on panel, the deeper they go and the deeper they it's I love those moments where you can actually witnessed someone healing themselves. Like when someone answers something on panel, and they just it's like this moment of, that's why I did that thing. Like it just starts to click and there's just you can like feel the the release just some amount of years. And it's like, we all need that, like every human needs a little more ease and a little more compassion for themselves. And so yeah, I I really enjoy the paneling process. And I really like it when I'm with a guide that I know well and I'm comfortable with and we can kind of like flank the panel each sit on one end and kind of bounce back and forth. Like I'm thinking of Scott right now because he and I have gotten together quite a bit and it's it was so nice to just know like he's running with something and as you learn like this is the beautiful part of CO guiding is you learn each other and like you just kind of you know give each other look or whatever it is or there's a you know, I know a key says this double click right like there's something that comes up that I know we should double click on or he knows like it's just it can be it can feel when we were talking about earlier not liking to dance. It can feel like what I imagine if I could actually dance would feel like Yeah, totally. Yeah, and double clicking being like hey, let's go further into that like opening a folder on a on a computer or whatever I kind of dig that phrase need to do that before it's fun. Yeah. When you when you do panels, and when you when you like those aren't always fun, and they're rarely fun actually. I'd fun is not the word I would use rewarding and valuable and beneficial and all those Yeah. I don't think fun is what I usually use. And after the after they're done. So out here in the free world, like we can have zoom call or we can have, you know when you know, not like pre COVID times, we were in a room or at a retreat center or whatever. Like after all is said and done. I if I was on a panel, I could come up to you after the fact and talk to you or vice versa, like there's that freedom to do stuff like that. And sometimes it feels in for me at least being on a panel out here in the free world. It's, it's nice to have that, that freedom to come and talk to the person after the fact. And, and I'm bringing this up because on the inside, not an option, obviously, a lot of times the panel is done. And it's over. And they go back to their cells or their or their blocks or their, wherever they're from their units. And I, I've never thought about this before until just hearing you talk about doing panels in your first experience and all that stuff and how you're, you didn't really like criticize yourself, because you didn't say anything that happened, you just kind of said that you forgot, and therefore that might mean dot, dot, dot, whatever. And it made me think like, have you is there any? Is there any space to talk with, with inmates after a patent? Like what does that look like on the inside? I mean, it's, if you do, I don't want to use the phrase, If you screw it up, you know, as I put in quotes, I don't know how else to say that. So if something goes differently than you wished it had, and how do you recover from that? If you don't have the ability to talk to that person afterwards? Or am I wrong? Do you have the ability to talk to that person afterwards? It's different at every location. And honestly, every time we go in some facilities are kind of lacks about any time. And like, you know, there's time to sit not set, but like we'll be cleaning up and folks can come up and talk to us. So certainly in those those moments, right. And since we do co guide, if something you know, really big happened, we could easily someone could kind of pull away from the group. And I've done that that was more around. When we were talking about some trauma, there was someone very triggered one time and it was actually a reentry class. So it was a mixed gender. And that was just made it tricky. But anyways, we had the freedom there because it wasn't actually inside a facility where I could pull her out into a different room and we could kind of work through some things. That as far as actually inside of the jail. I was really surprised by that. When I first went in how much at the end of class people will kind of linger, and it's okay, usually. I've certainly I don't know that it's been on panel. But I've certainly said things that either like, oh, I shouldn't have said that. Or, you know, and repair. You know, I offer a It's not funny, but I'm sorry. No, but it's you know, I, I definitely. I mean, this was a relatively small one, at least it felt small. But I said something about a couple rounds ago, I said something, I forget how I phrased it. But I said when it was a black guy that was talking to me, and I said something about when black people came to this country and not a huge deal the way that I set up, but I realized pretty quickly like wait, when they were forced to come to this country in slave ships, right, like, so real time I could go back and that was in front of the whole class of like, let me let me rephrase that. You did that in the moment. I did that in the moment. So I think the more you that's pretty wild, by the way. It's, I mean, appropriate? Of course, yeah. And it fits it's the right thing. And also, not something that most people would do, or would feel comfortable enough to do. I think that's the beauty of this community for me is I don't I mean, I don't think anyone likes to be uncomfortable. Yeah, Type Seven, especially. Can we just say if you're to have fun, right, like, but the more I do this work on myself. And the more I'm with others, it's like, I'm learning how much how much freedom, how much beauty there is in being able to catch those things real time and stand in the discomfort. Like, I'm feeling I witnessed other people's strength there, and I'm learning and pushing that in myself. Like, what was the reaction? When you caught yourself in that moment? Or was their reaction? I don't want to assume that anybody even really made a big deal out of it? I would, I would expect that to be like, Oh, wow, she caught that and rephrased it, respect or whatever. I don't know. Did anybody even care? I mean, there were definitely some looks around the room. And the individual that it was directed to that I was responding to. He definitely just it was a you know, a head nod, like, Yeah, and he's, he's come back for a second class and I have been not secretive with him that I hope you're an ambassador someday. Why is that? Why? Why are you recruiting ambassadors? Oh, my gosh, I love ambassadors. I want I so he's just, well, I have a soft spot for type ones married to Type One, I adore him. And this person happens to be a Type One as well and he just gets it he gets He gets the Enneagram. And he's so willing to sit in that discomfort and see it. And it's it's thrilling to watch. It's thrilling to just witness him in a course and a half, as he just comes through all of this, and is just so willing to stay with it. And I watched him support the rest of the group. And it's, yeah, it's just beautiful. And of course, I like I want to share all of EPP with him. And I've pictured him with with the ambassadors, and you all would love him. So there's that like, yeah, being ambassador. He's like, don't you worry, that's my plan. Of course, we don't we're not gonna say his name. But how long has he been gone? Or how much time? That's a phrase? How much time has he been serving? It's probably the proper way to say that. I don't know. Exactly. And I don't think it's been all that long. Okay. It's probably my easiest way to answer that. Cool. And it's probably not even relevant. I'm just nosy. And are there any? We have like, a dozen ambassadors now? I think it's 12. ish, something like that. Have you? Are any of our current ambassadors, former students of yours? Like, have you taught on the inside any of the guys that got out? Oh, no, as you say that I'm just like, going No. A few of them that came out of San Quentin, I had been in there. I've never guided at San Quentin like a full course. But I had been in there multiple times as a visitor, and that's alone has been wild to watch folks like, come out and become ambassadors. And like, you know, I met you when you were in blue, and like, now you're not. Yeah, do they remember you? Yeah. Yeah, that's been, that's been special, too. Because in my mind, like, they won't remember me, like, why would they? You know, and then they do. And I'm like, this is deep, because they've, it's, I think those are the moments were like, well, we make an impression on one another. And we, we tend to, I tend to assume the impression I receive is stronger than the other way. And so it's always Yeah, I'll tell you, anybody who's ever considered going on inside to visit, whether it be as just a visitor, or a, a guest of some other program or whatever, it the impact that it makes is immeasurable, like the fact. And regardless of why you're there, like it could be, it could be for Enneagram, it could be for, you know, a book club, it could be a business program, the fact that you're walking freely walking into a prison, to volunteer your time, people, most likely will remember that it makes an impact. It's kind of cool. And I remember, when I was in the last year, of being locked up the program that I was in, which is where I met Susan, we had guests come in, like every month, it was like a business program. And they come in to do like different events and things. And I remember, like, I remember a lot of them. And some of them, I only saw that one time. And never again, like the impact that you make when you give your time to a population that most people don't really care about. It's kind of a big deal. So I mean, it's your memorable and you and you're like I would be shocked if anybody forgot us specifically. And then also, in addition to that, it's just a big deal to be like going on the inside. And like people remember that kind of stuff? doesn't, it doesn't surprise me at all that, that people remember that. To get to see and be with folks that were incarcerated, and then to get to hug them. And just like, I don't know, I guess it's, I don't know, if this is like the head type, you might join me on this. Like, I'm not always sure I can trust reality, like we met on the inside. And like, I think you care about me, I think this is real. But then like to actually see someone on the outside then and like hug them. And like, that was a real moment. And that was we both shared our heart in a way that was absolutely true and real. There's like this. You can trust the universe. I don't know. It's like this very beautiful. Yeah, it's very special. And asked to say it. And I think I think people might take for granted. You know, I love that you bring up the hug, I always talk about the hug and the value of the hug and how special that is and important. And on the inside. It's not there period as you're literally restricted from physical contact, not even as far as I know, in California, not even a fist bump. You can pre COVID You could handshake, okay, so you could do that. In Texas and the program that in the program that I was in, we could hug men could hug men, but we would have to shake hands, with men with women and some of those are like restrictions that makes sense and it's not that big of a deal. But in a lot of places. It's it's like you couldn't even pass them on on the back and say hey, Good job. Like the you're you're just straight out restricted from any kind of physical contact. And a handshake is cool, like it's fine. But nothing compares to an actual like full on, embrace. Like, there's something happens there that doesn't happen with a handshake. So they get out, and they come to reconnecting or whatever it is that they were you see him and to be able to give that hug? Yes. I can imagine that's pretty badass. Yeah, I would say, I mean, I hear what you're saying. But for me, it's like to get that hug. Yeah, like, just Yeah, instead of give that's yeah, I can see that. I feel Yeah. I've never even thought because I always say, I, I've, I always use that word instead of. I never thought about that. That's fun. Okay, well, we'll Let's dig into that Clay. Yeah. A little bit more. I don't know. Well, I always think like, give a hug. I always think like, I went all that time without getting one. And so I always feel like, it's an hour thing for me. I could write a book that was excellent. I did for a while, with the title, about the value of a hug. What would have been the, how would a hug during your incarceration? Like, how do you think being able to hug? Would it have shifted anything? Would it have shifted your experience? Well, so my experience in prison was different than most anyways, because I wasn't snatched out of freedom without knowing about it. So I didn't have that sudden, just like jolt of, hey, you're in jail now, like, I knew that I was gonna go turn myself in. And I planned all that. And so for me, it was already pretty easy time by the time I got there. So that's probably relevant information, in context. But even even beyond that, just I don't know, for like, there were it wasn't so much like periods of time where hugs would have been, like, helpful. It's more like certain, like, instances or situations where I just had a bad day, you know, and I say all the time, like, and talking about prison that, you know, if you're having a bad day, who cares? Nobody, everybody there is having the worst day of their life. So if you're having a bad day, tough shit. So that's kind of the vibes there. And, you know, most the time, people are pretty reasonable. If if you're, you know, like you're selling my, you know, if you're having a bad day, like one time, I get in trouble, and I lost my visits for six months. And it was through no fault of my own, like, I didn't do anything, that that what should have warranted losing visits. And I was upset about it. And I went back to my cell, and my cell, he was aware that I was upset, and he left, like he just gave me so I had the cell to myself to just boo for a little while. And, you know, it would have been cool. If it was, like, socially acceptable, or, I mean, maybe it was socially acceptable, and you didn't think about it, I didn't think about it, but it'd been nice if it had just been like, you know, Hey, man, you know, it just gave me a hug and be like, it's gonna be alright, or, or I'm sorry, or I feel bad for you. Or, like, all these interactions that happen out here in the free world that we take for granted. don't really exist in prison as part of why it's so hard to have, like, healthy. Like a, like a healthy, emotional experience on the inside, you know, unless you're in a safe container, because it's just not, it's just not a thing that anybody does. So when I'm having this bad day, he's aware, like, he leaves the cell late, so I can cry by myself. And then there's also this thing. Like, when people get bad news, you stay away from you, it's a safety thing, like, somebody might just go off and just started just go crazy. And because they had a bad day, they don't know how to process those emotions. So there's, there's an awareness that exists in prison where people know, hey, that guy's having a bad day. But there's they don't do anything about it. Most of the time, it's not like they sit there and talk through it or, you know, whatever. And I think that's not absolute, like, there are circumstances or, you know, certain units or certain people or whatever, where maybe they do have that. But to go back to the I guess the original question about, you know, what would it have been like, it would have been in prison would have been a much different experience. If that was like a thing like if hugs were socially acceptable or whatever the right phrase is there but they they weren't. I mean, they could have like a hug program that would probably do Yeah, wonders like they could have a print like we have, you know, EPP they can probably have like HPP like, you know, the hug a prisoner project. Have it. I mean, that's even as you're talking, I'm thinking like when you're hugging someone, it is like such a. I mean, you can fake it certainly. But like it is one of the most undefended things you can do. And to, I mean, I have not been incarcerated, I don't want to be incarcerated, but my take on it is like, there is you have to be defended to survive, it is what I feel like. And imagine just any time to not to physically not be defended would like I just, I can feel that shift even as I talk about it like that, well, if you if you're hugging somebody, you're physically vulnerable to them. Not it's not just like a fully emotional thing, although there is that, but if if you have, if you have beef with somebody, and you don't know that something bad is gonna happen, and they trick you into a hug, they could just hold you while they stab you like it's a, and that's like, severe, it's probably not gonna happen. But I guarantee you it has it's happened more than zero times. Yeah. So there is like that physical vulnerability that happens. And it's all. Also, in addition to that, it's like this human need to be like held to some extent. And in this case, it's physical. And I don't think you ever outgrow that. I don't, I don't think you ever grow beyond the need to be held by another human. So whether that's a parent, whether that's a loved one, whether that's a spouse, or a partner of some sort, it's that need never goes away. And I think if you're fortunate, someone holds you as you transition out of this world. I mean, honestly, that's that that holding has to be the most, like sacred. Yeah, if if you're lucky, you leave being held by somebody? No. Yeah, be nice. Yeah, there's a handful of things that have just been the difference in my life, after prison. And one of them is, as the Enneagram is knowing, you know, what my, what my I say, glitches, it's not a fair word. And I won't put that on other people. But for me, that's just it's a comfortable word for me. And I don't see it as a negative thing out of Sally who said, Everybody's got a glitch, you know, and then two years later, I learned about the Enneagram. And I don't think that the, the, my type or the understanding of it is about glitches, I just, I It's your language. Yeah, exactly. So I love knowing what my glitches are, or to say it nicely, what some of my red flags might be, with my behavior. And I know, I like knowing what like my blessing my superpowers are, is probably the word that is more commonly used. And not only me, but you. And not only you, but you know, them and whoever else, like it's the it's, it's, uh, it's, it's given me a tool to exist out here in a happy and healthy way, without, you know, completely losing it. So, you know, as far as like, things that I took away from prison, like the Enneagram was a massive one. There are some other things like personal finance, and just learning how to do things and my ideas around money and how to manage it and all that stuff. And, you know, to respect it, and to work and just like stuff like that, but then the hug thing is, is probably the if Enneagram and hug the cycle, it's like, like one A and one B as far as like biggest. This is a little embarrassing to admit, but there goes the Asuma gram because I assume assume a gram Type Five, honestly, I mean, I know that you and I have hugged Yeah, but in my mind, there is this bit of like, don't my story is on too much. So there is this Don't be too much don't like honestly, there's a calculation of like, how much do I hug clay and time it because he's a Type Five, and he's gonna want me to be you know, so I just I'm just appreciating you sharing that because there I go again, with some sort of assumption because of this beautiful map that we have. But our shortcuts Right. Like it's just it's interesting to actually acknowledge that real time and yeah, even at the airport, like when you pick me up at you pick me up at the airport today. And the car pulls up. And before anything else before the bags go in. Like that's like priority for me, at least when I was it is for me, but I went with your lead honestly, like I was, oh, no big deal. Who doesn't want a hug? Like we're in the mobile pandemic for one? And I don't know how much of a hugger he is like, I'm hugging. Yeah. So interesting to actually acknowledge that like, yeah, so there was the supposed to be a gram and now there's the Asuma gram. Oops, I messed it up. No, I like but I like Asuma gram too. That's a funny one that's like we could this is like the whole this is problem. And anyone that knows me well knows this. I get concepts, but I get the words wrong all the time. Like I can tell you a story. And it's like the concepts there, but the names are probably way off. Maybe the total locations are off like even that it was what it what was it that? Well, it's there is no there is no it

first and then I came back concept I had it but the word.

The word, the phrase that I said earlier was it's not supposed to be a grabs, right? It's supposed to Graham and I, I mean, I was in the neighborhood, but it was that so that's why and then your flavor was Asuma gram which is there. It's it's, it's all good. I don't know which one I like more to be honest. I think they could both be on T shirts, if so many damn t shirt ideas. And none of them are happening. And I don't know why. And I don't know who to talk to drop. There's on the 10 year anniversary. Like that's, that's not a bad idea. And limited edition. I mean, we know people you probably make that happen. I don't know. I also don't want to make anybody mad. I know. I don't want to put work on the owner like, but am I that's that's the Asuma Graham I'm assuming they might get mad maybe I shouldn't listen just sit there for a second I think there's something actually there. That's funny. And the 10th anniversary is come it's cutting is two to two months away. And the this was this This podcast was only gonna it was gonna be going up to the 10th anniversary. Is that true? It's not now it's gonna keep going? I think I don't I don't have I don't I don't know if there's been like an official, like decision made. I think I feel comfortable saying that that was kind of mine to make or whether or not I stopped or kept going. And I like I'll say I'll say another year. Probably my mom actually texted me about that. When I was on the plane earlier, she's like, so after after the 12th episode, which actually there's 13 Because there was a bonus episode. So but she what she meant was after the final, like right at the 10th anniversary, are there going to be more? And I think the answer is yeah,

you're putting the squeeze on for a five year contract. Yeah. For real?

Like, are you getting a cut of this? What the heck? I don't who else would that? That would be a fun exercise. Actually. Anybody Listen, like Who? Who? Who was there to hear from that? We haven't talked to you. And I can say oh my gosh, so many people. I want to talk to everybody. Oh, actually, you should talk to everybody. Everybody's wonderful. That's the plan, hopefully. And I know in future episodes, I don't know when they will be so I'm not going to commit to that. I can I wish you wouldn't come nobody. Nobody's gonna know that. I just tried three different times to say the same sentence. And it's fine. It's okay. future episodes. I, I'm done. I'm done being silly. I mean, I'm done. Oh, no, I quit. That's how we end the podcast. Now. I don't know if you heard this. This was in a meeting. One of our meetings this week, we decided no more proper ending. So I'm just gonna say I'm done. And that is the appropriate boundary being set and then the podcast is over. Okay. No, I just but the the way that we do in the podcast, which you probably know she's heard it as I don't take the last word. I don't I don't have anything. Nothing further, Your Honor. Nothing, nothing more to ask her. I'm down to talk about anything else if you want. I feel like this is a good spot. And I appreciate you being willing. This was rather short notice. Ish. We talked last week. Like are you down? You said yes. When? How about Monday, okay. And this was all and then even to the point where my flight got canceled yesterday. And I landed today instead. And you pick me up from the airport and a lot of things got moved around and switched around and hashtag flexibility. Indeed, as we say here, flexibility being what it is. I'm glad this went down. And I'm glad I'm glad I got to sit and chat with you. So I I want to say thank you and I appreciate you being willing to do this. And as per usual, I will I will not take the last word and you have all the time that you need anything that you want to say to anybody. The floor is yours. Thanks clay thanks for inviting me to do this. I also have just enjoyed getting to spend time with you and chat. I I love you as a human and I love you what you bring to the project and when I sit with you and I see how much you light up doing this, and just how you're so good at it, like, I think everybody that listens to the podcast was like, You're just so good at it. It's like, you give me this hope for not just definitely for ambassadors like ambassadors like fine, and it doesn't have to be any EPP but find the thing that lights you up, you have a gift to give the world when I'm with you, I feel that and that's to me what this project is all about. It's like everybody finding something that lights them up and sharing it with the world. And it's like, I feel it right now. Like it's just warm and fuzzy inside and I'm just so grateful for you and what you're sharing with the world. Thank you. For more information about EPP, please visit Enneagram prison project.org We appreciate your time and attention today. Stay tuned for future episodes, which you can expect on the 12th of every month as we continue to tell the story of Enneagram Prison Project